The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[javcs]

Well, Raise Dead and Resurrection are (Healing) spells so ... that's a distinct possibility. Check with the DM.
On the other hand, the situations in which that would be useful are rare enough that I think we can safely ignore that possibility in evaluating the lifeleech otyugh's LA.

Honestly, the Lifeleech Aura is something that you're going to need to make sure the DM is aware of. It's probably not to the point of needing a DM Warning, but it is definitely something that needs a DM consultation, so maybe a ? instead of a * is in order.


It makes for a good tank/frontliner, but it doesn't have much that makes enemies want to prioritize it if they can get around it. Probably not as much of any issue in confined spaces like inside a dungeon or other building, but in open space, it is a bigger one.
On the other hand, it's probably competitive with a spiked chain lockdown type build.


I'd call it borderline between +0? and -0?.

[Covenant12]

9 Aberration RHD is a lot, but I think this guy has the abilities to make it a respectable +0. Thinking beatstick+BFC/lockdown.

Very high str and improved grab, with 4 tentacles and dex to support the combat reflexes feat, which is the one I'd keep from the stat block. Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Improved Natural Attack (tentacle), Mageslayer. He can dish out solid damage at level 9 with an innate 15' reach. Add +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists and even a +2 str item and he's no joke. He can hold up multiple weak/small/medium enemies or anything with a low reflex save. That covers an awful lot of opponents. 40' speed average for large size, thankfully not as slow as the original creature. +10' to speed is cheap, standard and core at that level. Painfully low int means he won't do much outside of combat, but that's often true for this role.

Looking to levels 10-12, dip barbarian for pounce and improved trip, then maybe crusader for Thicket of Blades. Knockdown at level 12 if the campaign faces equal or smaller creatures than large size often. Flight will be a priority by then, but that's true for any non-caster melee.

And this thread doesn't usually care about tankiness (and frankly I generally agree) but he has it. Solid bonus to Dex/Con/Wis means his saves are very respectable. More hps than a water orc/dwarf barbarian/warblade. Medicore NA, but can always add chain shirt barding cheaply. He is likely to have the best AC in the party. +4 deflection bonus is odd but nice. At level 9 its a long ways before the party members pay that much for one, and even at level 20 that's basically free gold. Combined with that and +6 dex and this is a large tank that touch attacks will sometimes miss. The leech aura is hard to evaluate, but the healer can cast "Heal" on him from 60' range without risk, often while healing someone else who may well need it at the same time.

+0 is really the lowest I'd go, comparing to reasonably optimized T3 beatstick/BFC melee brute. Arguing higher isn't impossible, but he'd suffer quickly losing HD compared to the party.

[Thurbane]

Str +16, Dex +6, Con +12, Int -4, Wis +8, Cha -2. Net +36. Impressive enough ability scores for a melee type.

+5 natural armor, +4 deflection; 40 ft speed; 5 natural attacks; constrict and improved grab; fast healing 5 & life leech. These are all OK to nice.

The real downside is 9RHD, and potentially the inability to wield items (depending on how dexterous the DM rules your tentacles to be). Aberration HD just aren't good.

If you were to go a full BAB class, you can still hit BAB +17 by 20. Sadly, Swordsage is your best initiator option, and that is medium BAB.

This one is borderline for me: I'm really torn between LA +0 and LA -0. I think you might just be able to play a passable bruiser, so I'm going LA +0.

[No brains]

I'd call it borderline between +0? and -0?.

The way I see it, a monster is +0 if you want to play it because it seems good and it is -0 if you don't want to play it because it seems bad.

I don't really have an opinion on this monster right now.

[ViperMagnum357]

Net abilities are on par for RHD, natural AC is low, Deflection is nice to start but once you get into the high teens you will want to overlay it with a +5 item, making it a stepping stone. Respectable natural attack routine and reach; no reach weapons leaves you 5 feet shorter in reach that most trippers, but you can do real damage with your strikes instead of scratch damage. Losing 3 BAB is seriously ugly and complicates a mix into a charging build; power attack is likely not for you, and 9 levels of features already spoken for means you are unlikely to get acceptable precision damage outside a gestalt campaign. That leaves Initiator or Incarnum.

Overall, I lean towards a weak LA +0. You are basically boxed into one of a couple of direct damage builds, but you will be competent in those areas and roughly comparable to the best martials and initiators with good choices.

[Aniikinis]

Excluding cheese that gets rid of racial hit dice, I'm torn. For one thing that's a lot of useless levels clogging up the build. On the other hand the benefits almost make up for it imo. I guess I have to say +0 but seriously borderline and almost to the -0 category.

[GreatWyrmGold]

(Side quandry: does a slain lifeleech otyugh get raised if a nearby cleric casts Raise Dead?)

What about if a nearby cleric casts Animate Dead? I mean, it's not a healing spell, but it's definitely giving life to something.
For that matter, how would the lifeleech ability affect undead lifeleech otyughs?

[javcs]

What about if a nearby cleric casts Animate Dead? I mean, it's not a healing spell, but it's definitely giving life to something.
For that matter, how would the lifeleech ability affect undead lifeleech otyughs?

Animate Dead, and Reincarnation, are not of the (Healing) subschool and so are not affected.


An undead Lifeleech Otyugh is shafted hard by the Lifeleech Aura. RAW, anyways.
Might be a template that would flip that somewhere. Maybe something designed for representing fallen celestials.

[danielxcutter]

The way I see it, a monster is +0 if you want to play it because it seems good and it is -0 if you don't want to play it because it seems bad.

I don't really have an opinion on this monster right now.

To be fair, -0 is a very wide spectrum; you have monsters only slightly behind +0s, and then you have things like Omnomnomnimentals.

[Zaq]

(Side quandry: does a slain lifeleech otyugh get raised if a nearby cleric casts Raise Dead?)

I mean, on the one hand, the otyugh is dead. It's hard to use abilities when you're dead.

On the other hand, there's precedent for certain supernatural qualities (like a hellbred's Hellbound trait) sticking around after you die, so . . . maybe!

As far as the rating goes, it's really, really hard to sell 9 aberration RHD without some active abilities, and just having Improved Grab and Constrict doesn't count for that much. Lifeleech is a really interesting ability on a monster, but unless you've got a dedicated healer in the party who actually works through casting actual [Healing] spells, I'm not going to rate Lifeleech as being that different from fast healing on a PC. Fast healing isn't usually worth 9 bad RHD, and the lifeleech otyugh even already has FH 5. I don't think we can justify going above -0.

It might be fun to play one in a weird "everyone must be an LA -0 monster" game, though.

I was going to mention how one level in a full-BAB class (plus a few skill points and a bad feat) qualifies them for Divine Crusader, which would be honestly pretty funny if they took the Healing domain, but then I remembered that Divine Crusader is CHA-based rather than WIS-based, so that's kind of disappointing.

[Celestia]

As far as the rating goes, it's really, really hard to sell 9 aberration RHD without some active abilities, and just having Improved Grab and Constrict doesn't count for that much. Lifeleech is a really interesting ability on a monster, but unless you've got a dedicated healer in the party who actually works through casting actual [Healing] spells, I'm not going to rate Lifeleech as being that different from fast healing on a PC. Fast healing isn't usually worth 9 bad RHD, and the lifeleech otyugh even already has FH 5. I don't think we can justify going above -0.

^ Ditto this.

[Remuko]

^ Ditto this.

Seconded -insert Scruffy, the Janitor-

[Efrate]

i would go plus 0. aberration hd are bad but not totally unplayable, good will is a nice boost to most melee. type gives some immunities, or at least forces a hold monster over hold person. stats are huge and spread decently enough. it's a beatstick, but it's a pretty dang good one. it doesn't have skills but most melee dont. it needs flight, but everything does, and likely pounce but again most melee does. pa is not as good but that is made up for by it's stats. you wont outdamage a true uber charger but you will be competetive.

expansion or a level of psywar even with limited power points gives you even more reach. totemist makes you extra blendy. rapidstrike isn't bad, you have the stats to carry it. assassins stance isn't awful either.

it's not a great initiator but that could work. strength makes up to hit and then some, but you want pounce still. maybe something with tiger claw?

even with no weapon or tool use I think it is a plus 0. a weak plus 0 but it's playable. it definitely is with tool use. just because a pc may be better doesn't mean it's unplayable.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Animate Dead, and Reincarnation, are not of the (Healing) subschool and so are not affected.

An undead Lifeleech Otyugh is shafted hard by the Lifeleech Aura. RAW, anyways.
Might be a template that would flip that somewhere. Maybe something designed for representing fallen celestials.

Sometimes, RAW is boring. I think the idea of a lifeleech otyugh which rises from the dead when a necromancer tries to make some zombies near its corpse, and feeds off of necromancy spells, is pretty neat.

[J]ust because a pc may be better doesn't mean it's unplayable.

1. -0 doesn't mean "unplayable," it just means "significantly worse than a standard-race PC".
2. You should fix the shift key on your keyboard. It seems to be busted.

[javcs]

Sometimes, RAW is boring. I think the idea of a lifeleech otyugh which rises from the dead when a necromancer tries to make some zombies near its corpse, and feeds off of necromancy spells, is pretty neat.

True. It would be pretty cool.
Possibly some sort of variant of the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, or whichever is the one that lets the living heal from negative energy.
Or just hand wave it.

1. -0 doesn't mean "unplayable," it just means "significantly worse than a standard-race PC".

People seem to forget this every time there's a monster that isn't made of concentrated suck.

2. You should fix the shift key on your keyboard. It seems to be busted.

Capital letters are important.

[lord_khaine]

I will throw in a vote for +0 as well.
Yes it looks kinda boring. But it seems to be strong enough to keep up with the physical bruisers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think it'd still be balanced with an extra class level. LA -0. If it were evaluated strictly as t4, it'd probably get +0, but at t3, it doesn't have enough versatility, and you can't use tools (certainly not humanoid tools, anyway, and I don't think otyugh have a tool-using culture).

A wild shape ranger could take the form of a lifeleech otyugh and do its job better. That's true of a lot of beatsticks, and I feel that it counts against the lifeleech otyugh as well.

[lord_khaine]

A wild shape ranger could take the form of a lifeleech otyugh and do its job better. That's true of a lot of beatsticks, and I feel that it counts against the lifeleech otyugh as well.

You cant by default take the shape of an aberation. As i recall you need to burn a few feats on it.
And in almost all cases the true Otyugh would be stronger, faster and tougher.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You cant by default take the shape of an aberation. As i recall you need to burn a few feats on it.
And in almost all cases the true Otyugh would be stronger, faster and tougher.

You mean it would have better physical ability scores because it's not limited to averages? Sure, that helps, but so does +2 base attack, better saves, three or four times the skill points (from a nice list), hands (part-time), actual class features worth more than a few feats (animal companion! spells!)... the list goes on. Oh, and there's the Warshaper dip for +4 Strength and Constitution.

A Wild Shape ranger won't be as good of an otyugh as the actual PC-statted otyugh, but it will be better whenever the specific package of "being an otyugh" isn't called for, and it can provide the same BFC.


Minor (unrelated) thing: the lifeleech otyugh was given a 20' climb speed in the errata. So that's pretty nice.

[unseenmage]

Reading both sides I have to agree with -0. Its just got those few too many truly awful RHD.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Going to call it +0 as well.

[Thurbane]

It's unfortunate that Aberration HD are so rubbish. d8HD, medium BAB, one good save, 2 skills points/level, and no type special abilities worth mentioning.

Aberration is better than Humanoid, but that's not saying much.

[Luccan]

It's unfortunate that Aberration HD are so rubbish. d8HD, medium BAB, one good save, 2 skills points/level, and no type special abilities worth mentioning.

Aberration is better than Humanoid, but that's not saying much.

One might say, when compared to real class levels, those HD are an aberration.

[RedWarlock]

One might say, when compared to real class levels, those HD are an aberration.

No! Bad Luccan! *gets the rolled-up newspaper* No cookie for you!

[GreatWyrmGold]

A Wild Shape ranger won't be as good of an otyugh as the actual PC-statted otyugh, but it will be better whenever the specific package of "being an otyugh" isn't called for, and it can provide the same BFC.

This is an important point to emphasize. When people say "X can act as Y, so Y is weaker," they're not (necessarily) saying that Y is weaker because it's worse at being Y than X is. If X can do a passable imitation of Y, and also other useful stuff at a useful level, it's probably going to be stronger than Y. For instance, a druid is stronger than a fighter because its animal companion, while not as good of a fighter as a fighter*, is a good enough fighter to let the druid compete in that role while also using its magic and other class features to fill other class roles.
Same with the lifeleech otyugh. With token investment**, a wild-shape ranger can do what a lifeleech otyugh does well enough, without seriously sacrificing their ability to do other things.

*Note: I've never tested this.
**Or none, if you consider "turn into a bear and cast healing magic on yourself" a close enough approximation of the lifeleech's core role as tanky bruiser.

[Inevitability]

Votes so far:

-0 LA: 6 votes
+0 LA: 7 votes

Note that if GreatWyrmGold is in favor of -0 (which I feel might be the case from his posts, but wasn't explicitly stated anywhere) then there's a tie. The next update isn't scheduled until tomorrow anyway so I'll let people vote for a bit longer.

[OgresAreCute]

I'll say -0

[No brains]

I think I gotta go -0 as well because of the regular issues of lacking hands, language ability, and 9HD of freedom for build ideas. Even if there's some decent stuff under those 9HD, that's still nearly half my build potential. That cuts it out of all adventures below level 9 and makes me ponder hard how to contribute at levels over 10.

Primo minion, but a bold choice for a PC.

[GreatWyrmGold]

[QUOTE=Inevitability;23487630Note that if GreatWyrmGold is in favor of -0 (which I feel might be the case from his posts, but wasn't explicitly stated anywhere)...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, -0.
Gotta remember to make my opinion clear. After all, my vote counts!

[Nifft]

9 Aberration RHD is a lot, but I think this guy has the abilities to make it a respectable +0. Thinking beatstick+BFC/lockdown.
(...)
+0 is really the lowest I'd go, comparing to reasonably optimized T3 beatstick/BFC melee brute. Arguing higher isn't impossible, but he'd suffer quickly losing HD compared to the party.

(...)
This one is borderline for me: I'm really torn between LA +0 and LA -0. I think you might just be able to play a passable bruiser, so I'm going LA +0.

I think you two may have a valid point, but I can't bring myself to change from -0 to +0 without something more concrete... and I can't think of a build off the top of my head which would justify +0.

Four decent natural attacks seems like a Pounce build might be worthwhile? But just dropping one level of Barbarian didn't get to Uber-Charger damage levels, so far as I could see.

Would anyone be willing to build something to justify the idea of +0 for this thing?