The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[danielxcutter]

What spells are you using to ignore initiative? Celerity is 4th and contingency is is 6th. Both of these can be taken by the red cap. Are there other ones?

I think it's less "ignore" and more "Dex isn't everything"; Nerveskitter is only a 1st-level spell.

It would actually cap out at 8th for sorcerers, 9th for ardents and ur-priests. And it doesn't matter how good the 9th level spells are as long as the red cap can fill a niche in the party. Which I think go first and and direct damage the enemy definitely qualifies for.

Yeah. Uh. Don't really think I've seen anyone allow Ardents to actually do that and Ur-Priests aren't exactly good measuring sticks either. Would Bard work for one of these guys?

[Lans]

I think it's less "ignore" and more "Dex isn't everything"; Nerveskitter is only a 1st-level spell.

Yes, but all of those would be available for the red cap as well.

Yeah. Uh. Don't really think I've seen anyone allow Ardents to actually do that and Ur-Priests aren't exactly good measuring sticks either. Would Bard work for one of these guys?

Maybe, I think warmages,psy warriors, wilders and duskblades would work pretty good compared to standared races.

[javcs]

What spells are you using to ignore initiative? Celerity is 4th and contingency is is 6th. Both of these can be taken by the red cap. Are there other ones?




It would actually cap out at 8th for sorcerers, 9th for ardents and ur-priests. And it doesn't matter how good the 9th level spells are as long as the red cap can fill a niche in the party. Which I think go first and and direct damage the enemy enough to kill it 3 times over definitely qualifies for. I don't think its going to be the most optimal choice for a character, but one that might be optimal for the 4/5th member of a party

Whoops, brain fart.

My point is, while it would be competitive, it still wouldn't be OP in that sort of environment.

[Lans]

Whoops, brain fart.

My point is, while it would be competitive, it still wouldn't be OP in that sort of environment.

Oh, sure. It would really only be competitive at really high levels.

I think the best path for the red cap would be a skill monkey like totemist, incarnate or swordsage. The fey hd hurts too bad for a full BA class for the 2/5 levels when its down an attack, and for casters it needs to be pretty high level to make up the 4 hd difference.

[javcs]

Oh, sure. It would really only be competitive at really high levels.

I think the best path for the red cap would be a skill monkey like totemist, incarnate or swordsage. The fey hd hurts too bad for a full BA class for the 2/5 levels when its down an attack, and for casters it needs to be pretty high level to make up the 4 hd difference.

Might be okay on some Ranger builds, though Ranger kind of blurs the line between a regular full BAB class and the finesse fighters and skillmonkeys.

Though for the finesse fighters and skillmonkeys, the loss of class levels, and thus being behind on the critical class features, would hurt more than on most full BAB classes.



Redcaps need a lot of extra class levels on top of their RHD to be worth playing, IMO. Not quite sure where I'd draw the line, though. Might vary by what kind of build is being used.

[Lans]

Might be okay on some Ranger builds, though Ranger kind of blurs the line between a regular full BAB class and the finesse fighters and skillmonkeys.

Though for the finesse fighters and skillmonkeys, the loss of class levels, and thus being behind on the critical class features, would hurt more than on most full BAB classes.



Redcaps need a lot of extra class levels on top of their RHD to be worth playing, IMO. Not quite sure where I'd draw the line, though. Might vary by what kind of build is being used.

I'm not sure that is the case, if we use a halfling for a rogue comparission, a lot of the abilities are defensive and fairly front loaded. I think by the time it hits rogue 2 its basically down 3 damage and a 14 skill points but is going to be up on to hit, ac carrying capacity, speed, have +4/1/1/1 on str/dex/wis/chr skills.

[Dimers]

I vote +0 for redcap, with no startling new insights to impart.

[Inevitability]

Rejkar

The most curious trait of those freezing elemental monster goats isn't their seemingly random spell-like abilities, nor is it their amusingly oversized horns, nor their fierce rivalry with devils. It's the fact that whoever was in charge of writing their stat block decided that yes, the digitless nonhumanoid goat could totally be a player character. It's an interesting decision, given that the same company thought hags and imps could never be suitable PCs.

Anyways, rejkar. They have five outsider RHD, Large size, the Cold subtype, some tough natural armor, a natural gore (1d8, so not exactly great). They also have some surprising ability adjustments: +6 strength and constitution are hardly strange, but +10 intelligence is a lot more than I'd have expected (apparently, rejkar are smarter than mind flayers?). +4 wisdom and charisma are neat, but not incredibly important.

Freezing Gaze is a very flavorful ability that poses quite the threat: everything near the rejkar risks freezing over, losing a turn for every save it fails. Cold-resistant creatures are immune, allies are obviously at risk, and fire damage ends the effect, but even so I feel like this ability is hardly worthless.

The goat's spell-likes are at-will Rage, Fabricate, and Crushing Despair, 3/day Major Image, and 1/week Augury. The latter is too little too less, the second is neat, but the at-wills are what's truly interesting. Rage is a neat free pre-battle buff for your brutes, and while Crushing Despair isn't stellar it's still a neat mass debuff. At-will Fabricate is absolutely insane if your DM doesn't care whether the rules make sense, and pretty neat if they do.

Finally, there's 1/week Heroes' Feast, but it's only available to three rejkars working together. Unless you regularly run into those, or your party wants to sacrifice team balance for steak once a week, it's unlikely to become relevant.

Rejkar advancement is... problematic. They lack the thumbs or teeth to properly use (Mouthpick) weapons, 5 RHD considerably hurt any caster build, and their natural gore isn't exactly impressive. Then again, with a little clever teambuilding, Freezing Gaze and Crushing Despair combine to make for one annoying group debuffer.

In my opinion, the rejkar deserves at least +0 LA because of its low-level power, though I'd like to add that a higher-level build is probably better off looking elsewhere. Discuss!

[Blue Jay]

The artist clearly wasn't on the same page as the writers here: those things on its head are clearly not antlers, and the rejkar clearly looks more like a goat than a stag or caribou.

Also, I'm pretty sure a rejkar would have to charge backwards in order to gore with those horns. That or tuck its head way down between its forelegs.

That +10 Int does seem suspiciously excessive. Intelligence scores that high are usually reserved for special creatures, not 5-HD evilgoats. That plus Outsider skill points would make this a good skill monkey if not for the weak racial class skill list.

In a gestalt game, this would be a pretty amazing wizard (probably worth some LA), but I think I can get behind your suggestion of LA +0.

[OgresAreCute]

"Hey Timmy, what was your favorite D&D character?"

"I really liked that time I played a hyper-intelligent, hypothermic goat!"

Another one of those decent-at-first-but-can't-scale monsters, not really sure how to rate this. The few abilities it gets are moderately spicy, and some of the stat boosts are humongous. Almost makes me wonder if this thing could make an alright debuff wizard at mid-levels and use save-or-dies at higher levels.

Compared to something like a Barbarian, the Barbarian (almost) makes up the difference in physical stats through Rage (feature) being more powerful than Rage (spell). Barbarians also have opposable thumbs and easy good progression options. If the goat takes Barbarian levels as well, it pulls a bit more ahead physically, but not too much since Rage (feature) and Rage (spell) don't stack. In addition, the regular Barbarian has access to iterative attacks, unlike the chilly goat. +10 Int is funky, but not very useful for a creature that doesn't use it for anything other than skill points. It has good saves at least.

I think I'll say +0 for this guy.

PS: Looking forward to the next entry, always wanted to play as rainbow spaghetti.

[Celestia]

+10 intelligence on something that has no way of reliably using intelligence. Awesome.

I agree with the +0. It's hampered by the no-hands penalty, but it still gets enough nifty stuff to make up for it.

[Thurbane]

Non-humanoids are always a bit of a challenge. No hands and a non-humanoid body shape usually cause difficulties with gear.

5 HD, of a good type.

40 ft move. +8 natural armor bonus. 1 natural attack. Not bad.

DR 5 of the worst type. Immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire. Not great.

+6 Str, +6 Con, +10 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. Pretty nice. Between Int bonus and Outsider HD, you're not going to be hurting for skill points.

Powerful Charge as a bonus feat. Nothing to write home about.

SLAs are all pretty decent. At will Fabricate is nice, and somewhat open to abuse. Heroes' Feast is also very good, but 1/week makes it very limited. oops, missed that you need partners to do this.

Freezing gaze is decent: basically an at will Hold Monster with no SR or mind affecting immunity issues.

Really, the only drawbacks I'm seeing are non-humanoid issues and the number of RHD. Allowing for these, I'm voting LA +1.

A Rejkar could make a decent melee/skill monkey type, with some nice SLAs and a pretty decent at will special attack. You will need to invest heavily in gear to get around your shape...

[ViperMagnum357]

Oh look, its another 'throw all the leftovers into a big bowl and make a casserole out of it'-type monster. I get the feeling the developers were clearing out the mental fridge one night and decided 'you know what? these 3-4 concepts we never got to work properly on their own are close enough in theme we can mash them together into one entry-what a space saver. Genius!'

More seriously, for a 5 RHD critter the chassis is solid: net +30 abilities is 10 over the mark, and +8 natural armor is 3 over average. 40 ft is 10 ft slower than expected for a large quadruped, the Gore attack is forgettable, and DR/Magic is might as well be nonexistent past ECL 3 unless you are using natural weapons and are too cheap to spring for a necklace/amulet; even so, Outsider RHD cures a lot of ills. Cold Subtype comes with the usual Fire vulnerability, but an unbreakable immunity is nothing to sneer at: Piercing Cold, eat your heart out.

The SLAs are probably the selling point, at least at a glance: Freezing Gaze has the all too common 24 hour reset clause, and Cold resistance is only beat out by the extremely pervasive Fire resistance for percentage-not something to write home about. The SLAs are not so great if you cannot abuse Fabricate: Major Image is solid, yet Crushing Despair has a narrow application with so many immunities out and about, and that percentage will approach 100% of worthwhile enemies at higher levels; even then, -2 is not solving an encounter very often. Keep in mind the Rage spell is precisely a discount class feature, including the clause that prevents spellcasting and using many magic items, so I question how useful a buff is with +1 Will saves, to hit and damage in return for -2 AC and doing nothing but trying to beat things to death with physical weapons...in D&D 3.5.

One bonus feat and a few skill bonuses round out a monster with hands-whoopee. I am leaning towards a solid LA +0 mostly for the stats; there are ways around no hands, and the Int is enough to justify a build for a 5 level investment in Outsider RHD. Hard to be a skillmonkey with that list, but it could be done; Initiator, as always, remains an option. I am also thinking an Wizard/Archmage could work for an Epic game-an Archmage can sacrifice extra spell slots, of which you will have many with +10 Int, to make up the missing caster levels; you will still not receive your full spell allotment until level 25, but be +4 or +5 ahead in your save DCs compared to most builds, with far superior resilience.

[Thurbane]

Apart from lack of hands, could you make a Factotum with this as the base?

[GreatWyrmGold]

The most curious trait of those freezing elemental monster goats isn't their seemingly random spell-like abilities, nor is it their amusingly oversized horns, nor their fierce rivalry with devils.

Well, yeah. Random SLAs, natural weapons that Cloud thinks are excessively big, and random rivalries with previously-established creatures are all pretty common among splatbook monsters.

Finally, there's 1/week Heroes' Feast, but it's only available to three rejkars working together. Unless you regularly run into those, or your party wants to sacrifice team balance for steak once a week, it's unlikely to become relevant.

It's better than sacrificing team members for venison once. (Or maybe chevon?)

Apart from lack of hands, could you make a Factotum with this as the base?

You could make a wizard out of a lizard, it would just suck. As to if you could make a factorum work with this...can you make +10 Intelligence more valuable in your factoruming than thumbs?

[Efrate]

Pretty easy plus 0. Major image and fabricate can go a long long way. Stats are a grab bag and dont neatly fit any class sadly, but provided the hands issues are gotten around i think it can preform on par with most non full casters. The glare is a potentially awesome save or suck without the usual barriers, and can outright win some fights with no action costs.

[javcs]

Rejkar are weird.

I'm pretty sure I'd never play one.

They have no particularly good or clear advancement path, and have an odd mixture of abilities, mostly due to the SLAs. Without the SLAs, I'd call them a relatively generic cold monster, but the SLAs don't give them enough to really change that.

If they were faster, I'd say that they'd be better used as a mount than as a PC.


I'm going to call them a technical +0, since they have too much to be a -0, but I'd also advise against playing one.

[danielxcutter]

So... how useful are these guys for a DM?

[Celestia]

They have no particularly good or clear advancement path, ...

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The best I can come up with is to use that intelligence and go wizard gish. You're losing more caster levels than most gish builds, and you probably won't even have a good enough melee damage output to make up for it, but it could be serviceable. Your save DCs will be great, at least, so maybe you could specialize in save or die/suck spells.

[Morphic tide]

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The best I can come up with is to use that intelligence and go wizard gish. You're losing more caster levels than most gish builds, and you probably won't even have a good enough melee damage output to make up for it, but it could be serviceable. Your save DCs will be great, at least, so maybe you could specialize in save or die/suck spells.

Warblade or Swordsage could work thanks to Strikes referencing melee weapons entirely in fluff, rather than mechanical description (the key is that the terms are "melee attack" and not "attacks with your melee weapon"), and there's some decent synergy with Totemist of the "not all that harmed by difficulties of nonhumanoid form". Crusader could work, if you're wanting to capitalize on your preexisting Spell Like abilities. The big thing is to go with options with less damage from lost levels than spellcasting or pure class level setups, which is true of almost every common subsystem outside of spellcasting. Even Psionics has you able to spend past your normal limit off the coverup feat caring about character level, rather than

[Lapak]

I'm comfortable with +0 on the Freezegoat. It has great stats and some surprisingly useful SLAs, and I can see a few build possibilities along the lines already discussed.

I don't have the book in front of me to check on ability wording, but I am wondering how one would do as a Duskblade.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At least rejkar have Craft as a class skill, to go with fabricate... Other than that, they have decent class skills, but no Knowledges or Spellcraft, nor anything else that might leverage that high Intelligence. The lack of hands with which to carry out many traditional skillmonkey-only skills (Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope) holds them back further. That's a bit of a pain for a creature with high INT and eight skill points per HD. In the end, having sixty skill points at level one is great, but spending forty of them cross-class is not.

I'm going to go with +0. They've got some raw numbers, but they're not amazing, and a real pain to advance. Maybe they're a bit strong at ECL 5-7, but if you're willing to play a rejkar into the higher levels, you deserve a while in the spotlight.

[Thurbane]

So... how useful are these guys for a DM?

I've definitely considered using them, as part of an enemy group. Their shtick is interesting enough for me (provider for an arctic civilisation, tempting them towards evil). It's a shame they lack the Evil subtype required for Fiend of Blasphemy.

At least rejkar have Craft as a class skill, to go with fabricate... Other than that, they have decent class skills, but no Knowledges or Spellcraft, nor anything else that might leverage that high Intelligence. The lack of hands with which to carry out many traditional skillmonkey-only skills (Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope) holds them back further. That's a bit of a pain for a creature with high INT and eight skill points per HD. In the end, having sixty skill points at level one is great, but spending forty of them cross-class is not.

Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival isn't the worst racial skill list I've seen.

If you're willing to blow precious feats, you can expand it further.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival isn't the worst racial skill list I've seen.

If you're willing to blow precious feats, you can expand it further.

It's not bad, for sure, but it's missing two big blocks of skillmonkey skills: the obscure and situational ones, and Knowledge. It's going to be more along the lines of "beatstick with weirdly many skill points" than a true skillmonkey, I think.

[No brains]

Can't fabricate make siege weapons? Technically building a new one every other turn is faster than reloading in some cases.

[Celestia]

Can't fabricate make siege weapons? Technically building a new one every other turn is faster than reloading in some cases.

And you can use the old one as the materials needed to build the new one!

[javcs]

Can't fabricate make siege weapons? Technically building a new one every other turn is faster than reloading in some cases.

Aiming and firing would still be an issue.
Also, I'm pretty sure you'd still need a stockpile of ammo/materials for ammo. Plus, since ammunition is bought separately, the DM might not allow you to use fabricate to create a loaded siege weapon.

Though, it's a hilarious mental image.


Still wouldn't play one.

[danielxcutter]

Um... Fangshields Ranger?

[javcs]

Um... Fangshields Ranger?

Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Focus aren't that great for the Rejkar, and a effective druid level for the animal companion of 1/2 Ranger level +2 isn't going to be that useful. Neither is the +1 Sacred bonus to AC during either the day or at night.

Fangshield Druid maybe, for humanoid wild shape, but that's at Druid level 7, or ECL 12 on a Rejkar, plus, again, you're 5 casting levels behind. And Druid doesn't really care about Int that much.


Rejkar doesn't have the natural weapons (or physical abilities, really) to be much good in melee, but they don't have much capacity for contributions outside of close combat either, either.

[Lans]

I feel at will fabricate and its other abilities are good enough to be worth +1 La at level 5 just from being able to make dirt walls around people. Expecially when you add in its free action save or lose.