OOTS #1143 - The Discussion Thread

[littlebum2002]

I never thought I would see someone name those two characters in the same breath.

Except maybe for contrast. Or maybe as part of the list, "members of the Order of the Stick."

They both have bad Fortitude saves and thus might get killed by Implosion.

"Vaarsuvius and Elan" is also the answer to the question "What members of the Order are most likely to drive Roy nuts?"

Yeah-- the fact that kobolds and lizardfolk were probably created to the same purpose goblins were, yet don't have their grievances, could be a reason to be suspicious of the Dark One's motives. It could also be that Tiamat is helping the Dark One because she sees this as an opportunity to similarly improve the fortunes of kobolds and lizardfolk, or they have an already-established deal in place. Or it could be something else I haven't considered.

This is absolutely true, but you also need to realize that, as bad as kobolds and lizardfolk have it in this world, at least they still have (at least one) deity representing them. The goblinoids have zero. I would imagine that would give them a huge advantage in getting a foothold in the world.

I don't think that the story about the xp fodder will turn out to be false. I think that a world designed with a fundamental injustice is something the story is trying to explore and Rich wouldn't undermine that.

I think this story is trying to be as realistic as possible inside the incredibly crazy and unrealistic world in which it takes place. And, since rainbows and happy endings aren't very realistic, somehow I doubt this story will end with all races being equal and happy in the world. I believe it's going to have some resolution to the fundamental injustice in the world, but it's not going to be the one we're all hoping for.

[Shining Wrath]

I've been hoping for a Redcloak/Order team-up for a long time now, and I think I know how it'll go:

It'll be the Monster in the Dark.

The MitD is the only creature in the whole strip who has a reason to like both sides, and a reason to want both of them to survive and succeed. Partly it's past friendship -- however distorted his friendship with Redcloak and Xykon has been. Partly it's his general good nature. Partly it's his character growth. He's downright clever now, when he wants to be. He can see both sides and sympathize with both sides and also see the holes in both sides.

Moreover, the MitD is big enough and strong enough that none of the various parties involved can just zap him when he tries to negotiate. There's a hilarious scene in The Dresden Files in which (mild spoilers) Dresden's enormous dog Mouse winds up playing peacemaker between two fierce enemies by simply sitting on them. The MitD is sufficiently a force to be reckoned with that he can do the same. A MitD-enforced truce could give Durkon the time he needs to persuade Redcloak. He might also provide some leverage, forceful or philosophical, to Durkon's argument.

(There's also the hint that the MitD knows about the Astral Plane, and therefore perhaps more, although I don't think it'll come to much.)

And lastly, it would be a grand conclusion to the Monster's character arc.





If you're still reading this thread: I'd be honored! I've never been sig'd before.

I think the following threads need to be tied up:

1. Redcloak needs to actively cooperate to supply purple quiddity
2. The Dark One has to go along with Redcloak supplying purple Quiddity
3. The above implies the OotS and Redcloak having some sort of extended interaction that builds trust. This will not be solved by Haley drinking a potion of Glibness
4. The MitD has been commanded to eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon. Xykon is going to view any change to The Plan as a betrayal if said change doesn't wind up with him ruling the world
5. O Chul's relationship with MitD needs to further advance; we have a Chekov's Go set hanging around

I think the idea of the Order plus O Chul somehow helping MitD resist Xykon's enchantment and breaking free is a good one. It gives a pretext for (3) to occur.

The problem is that I can't think of any non-divine force in the story that could stand against the Order, plus O Chul and Lien, plus MitD, plus Redcloak. They'd take Xykon down almost casually if they all worked together. Once the big negotiation succeeds, what supplies dramatic tension?

[GreatWyrmGold]

"Vaarsuvius and Elan" is also the answer to the question "What members of the Order are most likely to drive Roy nuts?"

I'm pretty sure that's an insult to both V and Belkar.

This is absolutely true, but you also need to realize that, as bad as kobolds and lizardfolk have it in this world, at least they still have (at least one) deity representing them. The goblinoids have zero. I would imagine that would give them a huge advantage in getting a foothold in the world.

Also dragons. I mean, some dragons work with goblins, but they tend to have worse working conditions. We're not gods, but we are pretty good at getting the furry races off our little helpers' backs.

I think the following threads need to be tied up:

1. Redcloak needs to actively cooperate to supply purple quiddity
2. The Dark One has to go along with Redcloak supplying purple Quiddity
3. The above implies the OotS and Redcloak having some sort of extended interaction that builds trust. This will not be solved by Haley drinking a potion of Glibness
4. The MitD has been commanded to eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon. Xykon is going to view any change to The Plan as a betrayal if said change doesn't wind up with him ruling the world
5. O Chul's relationship with MitD needs to further advance; we have a Chekov's Go set hanging around

I think the idea of the Order plus O Chul somehow helping MitD resist Xykon's enchantment and breaking free is a good one. It gives a pretext for (3) to occur.

The problem is that I can't think of any non-divine force in the story that could stand against the Order, plus O Chul and Lien, plus MitD, plus Redcloak. They'd take Xykon down almost casually if they all worked together. Once the big negotiation succeeds, what supplies dramatic tension?

There are a few possibilities, ranging from "MitD succumbs to Xykon's spell, climax is keeping him from eating Redcloak while fighting Xykon" to "Xykon breaks out an epic spell which lets him face several mid- to high-level characters at once" to "Maybe convincing Redcloak to change sides is the climax".

[DaggerPen]

I think the following threads need to be tied up:

1. Redcloak needs to actively cooperate to supply purple quiddity
2. The Dark One has to go along with Redcloak supplying purple Quiddity
3. The above implies the OotS and Redcloak having some sort of extended interaction that builds trust. This will not be solved by Haley drinking a potion of Glibness
4. The MitD has been commanded to eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon. Xykon is going to view any change to The Plan as a betrayal if said change doesn't wind up with him ruling the world
5. O Chul's relationship with MitD needs to further advance; we have a Chekov's Go set hanging around

I think the idea of the Order plus O Chul somehow helping MitD resist Xykon's enchantment and breaking free is a good one. It gives a pretext for (3) to occur.

The problem is that I can't think of any non-divine force in the story that could stand against the Order, plus O Chul and Lien, plus MitD, plus Redcloak. They'd take Xykon down almost casually if they all worked together. Once the big negotiation succeeds, what supplies dramatic tension?

Given the exposition back during The Crayons of Time suggesting that gods are weaker to the Snarl than mortals of an equivalent level would be, something backed up by the recent quiddity exposition, I don't rule out the possibility that this ends with the Order, Redcloak and the MitD, buffed with fourth quiddity magic, kicking some Snarl tail. (Still not sure how the world within the Snarl would tie into that, though.)

[Zholvar]

"Vaarsuvius and Elan" is also the answer to the question "What members of the Order are most likely to drive Roy nuts?"



This is absolutely true, but you also need to realize that, as bad as kobolds and lizardfolk have it in this world, at least they still have (at least one) deity representing them. The goblinoids have zero. I would imagine that would give them a huge advantage in getting a foothold in the world.





I think this story is trying to be as realistic as possible inside the incredibly crazy and unrealistic world in which it takes place. And, since rainbows and happy endings aren't very realistic, somehow I doubt this story will end with all races being equal and happy in the world. I believe it's going to have some resolution to the fundamental injustice in the world, but it's not going to be the one we're all hoping for.

Now after rereading some parts it wonders me the most: what injustice / inequality do the goblins face? I mean the lizardfolk and humans on the western continent "fight for scrabs", the dwarfs have the deal with Hel and so on... Are they forced to be evil and therefore destined to become cannonfodder? Doubtfull. Because they started in their live in resourcepoor areas? Well what about the races of the western dessert? Poor stats? (Halfelves and Halforks come to mind...)
What does being a PC-Race mean? I mean we see Goblins able to get class levels (espacilly Redcloak). There are other low challenge rating monsters in the world, which again is something against this pure "cannonfodder theme". It is still possible, but a little bit doubtfull, there has to be something more going on. Heck if the sole purpose was to only give clerics (one of the strongest low level classes) somehting to kill, why sentinent humanoid beings? The violence threshold there should be higher, instead of mindles oozes or something? I mean it sounds good the first few times, but a lot of things don't end up.

[Windscion]

I mean it sounds good the first few times, but a lot of things don't end up.

We are still talking about the same gods who created a world of sapient movie snacks, right?

[Zholvar]

We are still talking about the same gods who created a world of sapient movie snacks, right?

OK, point taken ;-)

[Crisis21]

Wow is it hard to take part in this discussion without bringing up things from SoD...

Spoiler: How to shake up Redcloak's faith in the plan: SoD spoilers

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The Plan basically boils down to either the Dark One being able to blackmail the other Gods with the threat of the Snarl in negotiations or the world being destroyed and the Dark One having a place in creating the next world where he can muscle through improvements for goblins like Monkey did with ninjas.

The hiccup in this plan is the assumption that this world is the second world, not the n-millionth world. In fact, all implications point to the Dark One not knowing just how many worlds the other gods have created. He may have been brought into the fold regarding the existence of the Snarl, but not this far into it.

It also seems the Dark One reclusing himself from the other gods is hurting his chances to be made part of the creation of the next world as seen by Sunna, Tyr, and Skadi's (simulated) attitudes in this latest comic. All of them seem perfectly willing to continue excluding the Dark One from inter-pantheon interactions (such as the creation of a new world) until a new god ascends with purple quiddity (or a different color) that is more amenable to their own interests. They are likely willing to continue on for millions more worlds before they consider working with the Dark One.

This means that because the Dark One doesn't know about the fear of making a new Snarl preventing in-person inter-pantheon debates/discussions/what-have-you and because he's been systematically cutting off all of the 'safe' means of communicating with him, he will likely not be informed when the gods start making the next world. Or the next one after that, so on and so forth.

The simple information that the gods are perfectly willing to exclude the Dark One in the creation of subsequent worlds may be enough to shake Redcloak's faith in the Plan. There's nothing like being told your 'sure thing' backup plan is actually the slimmest of chances.

[SilverCacaobean]

I think this story is trying to be as realistic as possible inside the incredibly crazy and unrealistic world in which it takes place. And, since rainbows and happy endings aren't very realistic, somehow I doubt this story will end with all races being equal and happy in the world. I believe it's going to have some resolution to the fundamental injustice in the world, but it's not going to be the one we're all hoping for.

I agree. Though I have to say, an ending where the order fixes everything isn't one I'm hoping for at all, so I don't agree with that last part, but certainly with the rest of this sentiment.

[Tai]

Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

Not going to dig through 10+ pages to see if this was addressed, but the Twelve are likely based on the Chinese Zodiac. If so, the Chinese consider rats to be creative, intelligent, honest, generous, ambitious, quick tempered and wasteful. So no, backstabbing is not something Rat would be keen on.

[Snails]

And I'm pretty sure it isn't just a joke given that a) the roach is shushed by his fellow because 'they (i.e. we, the readers) don't know about some of them yet' and b) Rich at one point explicitly stated that upcoming comics would reveal one of those (at least) nine sides (this was before Hel's agenda was revealed).

It seems pretty clear to me that the line was meant to indicate that there are many factions with a vested interest in how the scenario with the Gates plays out, and we have seen that this is exactly the case.

We literally saw gods of every alignment debate and vote on the destruction of the planet. That is as "here are all nine!" as you are likely to ever get.

Whether it rates as a joke to you or not is less important, than the high likelihood that it is played out.

[Kish]

Start of Darkness refers to Rat as an evil god, so I suspect the actual Chinese influences are superficial.

[D.One]

Not going to dig through 10+ pages to see if this was addressed, but the Twelve are likely based on the Chinese Zodiac. If so, the Chinese consider rats to be creative, intelligent, honest, generous, ambitious, quick tempered and wasteful. So no, backstabbing is not something Rat would be keen on.

That's before or after he fooled his "friend", the cat, in the race to get a place in the zodiac? Because that seems a lot like backstabbing to me.

[Nomen]

Now after rereading some parts it wonders me the most: what injustice / inequality do the goblins face? I mean the lizardfolk and humans on the western continent "fight for scrabs", the dwarfs have the deal with Hel and so on... Are they forced to be evil and therefore destined to become cannonfodder? Doubtfull. Because they started in their live in resourcepoor areas? Well what about the races of the western dessert? Poor stats? (Halfelves and Halforks come to mind...)
What does being a PC-Race mean? I mean we see Goblins able to get class levels (espacilly Redcloak). There are other low challenge rating monsters in the world, which again is something against this pure "cannonfodder theme". It is still possible, but a little bit doubtfull, there has to be something more going on. Heck if the sole purpose was to only give clerics (one of the strongest low level classes) somehting to kill, why sentinent humanoid beings? The violence threshold there should be higher, instead of mindles oozes or something? I mean it sounds good the first few times, but a lot of things don't end up.

The goblins started with a disadvantage and look different enough that people can systematically force them to keep it. It can be overcome and its possible that the Dark Ones strategy is counter productive but I have no doubt that its a real thing. The goblins didn't have good land so some of them resorted to raiding other places. Other species decided that those who raided them represented the whole group but the members of their own species who did simular things were the exception. And its becomes impossible to tell the difference between keeping the goblins out because they represent a real risk, and because they don't want resources that could be going to their own species wasted on goblins. Meanwhile people go into goblin lands and kill them wholesale and some have some sort of righteous cause but others just kill them because they have green skin and pointy fangs and might have treasure. And its tough to tell the difference sometimes.

And some species will also have disadvantages but two wrongs don't make a right especially when the two wrongs is one group wronging two different groups. And even if another group manages to handle the adversity better for whatever reason does not mean we should dismiss it as non existent.

[Nomen]

I do think Redcloak can theoretically be reasoned with and threatening him would be counter productive. Redcloak is willing to permakill everyone including himself if it furthers his goals. What Redcloak needs to move forward is assurance that the injustice against goblins will be addressed if he helps. Beyond that convince Redcloak that the new plan is the only way to make things up to his brother, and that the old plan could not work and might actually make things worse for goblins.

[Laze]

I do think Redcloak can theoretically be reasoned with and threatening him would be counter productive. Redcloak is willing to permakill everyone including himself if it furthers his goals. What Redcloak needs to move forward is assurance that the injustice against goblins will be addressed if he helps. Beyond that convince Redcloak that the new plan is the only way to make things up to his brother, and that the old plan could not work and might actually make things worse for goblins.

Well, that sounds good in theory, but Redcloak had a big problems with admitting his own mistakes and stubbornness at the very least in Start of Darkness. He seems to be getting a little bit better lately, like when he stand by the hobgoblins and admitted that he was actions were horrible. He is not a complete loss, but who knows.
Makes me wonder how willing he is to cooperate with the enemies even for the greater good.

[Crisis21]

We literally saw gods of every alignment debate and vote on the destruction of the planet. That is as "here are all nine!" as you are likely to ever get.

Whether it rates as a joke to you or not is less important, than the high likelihood that it is played out.

The original in-comic discussion where this was revealed literally said that a shared alignment does not a 'side' make. By the same token differing alignments do not necessarily make for different sides, as evidence by both the IFCC and the Order themselves. As such, equating sides in this conflict to the traditional nine alignments of d&d - whether you think it's a joke or not - just doesn't hold water.

Edit: Also, the response to "I count at least nine" is that "they don't know about some of those yet". This makes no sense at all if the 'nine' is referring to the nine alignments as this is a - as Thor puts it in panel seven - a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody", meaning that there is effectively no one in-universe or out who isn't already aware of the traditional nine alignments. The only way anyone would not know about some of these 'nine+ sides' is if they aren't alignment dependent.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Now after rereading some parts it wonders me the most: what injustice / inequality do the goblins face? -snip-

As it happens, there are good parallels (intentional or not) to non-Eurasian peoples.
Take Native Americans. They weren't predestined to become cannon-fodder and don't have worse stats (duh), and many of them lived in regions rich in all sorts of natural resources (a big part of why the USA is a modern superpower). Loosely speaking, the reasons they were ultimately conquered and killed by the European colonists—guns, germs, steel, the whole lot—can all be traced to Eurasians developing urban civilization faster than Americans, which can (in turn) arguably be traced to the Americas having pretty terrible indigenous crops and livestock. Modern corn is great, and llamas are cool, but wild corn is pretty terrible compared to (e.g.) wild wheat or rice, and Eurasia had a wide variety of boring (to us) but practical beasts of burden to use for plows, meat, milk, etc.
Now, goblins don't seem to have had inherently worse access to crops or livestock the way Native Americans did, but while the "civilized" races were presumably created with civilization and had divine support from the start, the "barbaric" races did not. Look at any D&D world—it's assumed that humans, elves, dwarves, etc have their own kingdoms and city-states and wizarding colleges and complex priesthoods, while the most complex societies we usually see out of the other races are warlords and the occasional charismatic emperor uniting a bunch of tribes or clans or whatever. (Many worlds do have an evil-race empire or two, but most goblins/orcs/etc still live in scattered tribes.)
A world created in this state, with the gods helping the "civilized" and neglecting the "barbaric," would have power disparities maintained or magnified, as with historical examples of such power disparities. Yes, The Dark One would provide divine aid eventually, reptilian humanoids found solace in the arms of Tiamat, and various "monstrous" races would develop other ways to stay safe, but all of this occurs while the "civilized" races also find new allies and develop new ways to strengthen themselves. The "barbaric" races would naturally be driven to worse and worse land, have attempts at unity shattered before they could "become a threat," etc...barring ethical objections to such treatment among the "civilized" people, but those are obviously rare in the OotS world.
It doesn't require conscious decision-making on the parts of the gods or any mortals. All it requires is that some races have a few incidental advantages (be that access to half a dozen kinds of livestock or divine intervention) which let them set up centralized states faster than others, creating a power disparity, which just gets magnified over time if nobody notices and tries to fix it.
Framed correctly, the disparity between "civilized" and "barbaric" races could work as commentary on the disparity between various cultural groups in the modern world. It's been one of many thematic setting ideas I've kicked around for a while, up there with making the eight non-TN alignments correspond with one ideology/overgod...which also involves "evil" races and beings being more than just meanies and also being subject to a world dominated by the "good" races. (I think OotS's themes have influenced how I see TRPG worlds pretty heavily.)

The simple information that the gods are perfectly willing to exclude the Dark One in the creation of subsequent worlds may be enough to shake Redcloak's faith in the Plan.

It should probably shake The Dark One's faith in The Plan, too.

We literally saw gods of every alignment debate and vote on the destruction of the planet. That is as "here are all nine!" as you are likely to ever get.

There were gods of multiple alignments voting on each side, and some of very different alignments are known to be directly cooperating. Similarly, we know that Roy, Durkon, and the Sapphire Guard (LG) are presumably on the same side as Elan and Haley (CG), Vaarsuvius (a far darker shade of TN than they're comfortable with), and Belkar (a paler shade of CE but probably still CE). On the other hand, we know that The Dark One and Hel are on different sides, despite both quite probably being NE.
The alignment system may or may not be the reason Rich chose specifically nine as the minimum number of sides involved, but the sides don't line up by alignment.

Well, that sounds good in theory, but Redcloak had a big problems with admitting his own mistakes and stubbornness at the very least in Start of Darkness. He seems to be getting a little bit better lately, like when he stand by the hobgoblins and admitted that he was actions were horrible. He is not a complete loss, but who knows.

It's almost as if character development is a thing, and as if admitting that the current Plan was a mistake could be the climax of his character arc.

[Liquor Box]

...And having the heroes beat up Redcloak as part of winning him over is more

Well, I was thinking of the heroes coercing Redcloank into cooperating after beating hi., rather than winning him over, as a realistic possibility.

Daggerpen suggested the sort of middle ground option where the Order defeats Redcloak in combat and the, when Redcloak isn't holding any more cards, they are able to persuade him to assist. To answer your question, yes I do think it is more realistic that the heroes will be able to persuade Reddy after defeating him, because he will no longer hold any cards himself.

[Gift Jeraff]

I strongly believe that nine sides is a joke, playing on the 3x3 different D&D alignments. What the demon roach is really saying is that everyone is in this game whether they know it or not. And the godsmoot has proven such true -- everyone on this planet could have been killed a few days ago because of this Gate chase, and avoidance/disinterest in Xykon would have been no protection.

So, no, counting up different "factions" will tell you nothing. The joke has been played out.

Rich's commentary disagrees with you.

Spoiler: Don't Split the Party commentary

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It has become sort of a tradition for me to give a glimpse into the future of the comic during the last of these incredibly dull commentary pages, as a reward for the people who slogged through all of these words, words, words about a stick figure comic. This book will be no exception, so here goes:
In the next volume of The Order of the Stick, people will travel someplace. While there, they will meet other people—some new, others not—and discover facts that they didn’t know. Some of those facts will in turn lead to conflict and additional discoveries, while others will not. There will be a lot of jokes—some that you find funny, others that you do not. The characters will talk a lot. Someone...
...will drink a beverage!

What?

OK, OK, fine, how about this, then: In the next volume of The Order of the Stick, readers will meet, for the very first time, one of the “nine sides” mentioned by the demon roach in strip #548. That’s right, there will be at least one entirely as-yet-unrevealed player in the struggle for the Gates who will be...well, revealed.
Oh, and someone will die. But I bet you already knew that, right?

[ziratha]

Just curious, I don't have the supplementary texts (SoD, etc), does the dark one know that this is not the first world? He knows about the snarl, and the fact that it was created because of the bickering of the gods, but maybe he doesn't know that it isn't this world that was being created. If he doesn't know this, he may not even know that the other gods can un-create the world, a fact that could quite possibly change his mind. Maybe I am missing something totally obvious?

[Sloanzilla]

There was that one time he blew up a dungeon...That said, yeah, in most respects, he's like the second or third most capital-G Good character in the comic. Right below Celia and O-Chul.

And Durkon

[Jasdoif]

Well, I was thinking of the heroes coercing Redcloank into cooperating after beating hi., rather than winning him over, as a realistic possibility.

Daggerpen suggested the sort of middle ground option where the Order defeats Redcloak in combat and the, when Redcloak isn't holding any more cards, they are able to persuade him to assist. To answer your question, yes I do think it is more realistic that the heroes will be able to persuade Reddy after defeating him, because he will no longer hold any cards himself.

The whole thing they want Redcloak to do requires providing a ninth-level spell slot, meaning they need to allow Redcloak to expend such a slot; and ninth-level spells tend to be pretty good at crushing problems. They need Redcloak to hold and play a pretty big card...and they're hosed if Redcloak decides to play it against them rather than for them.

[B. Dandelion]

Just curious, I don't have the supplementary texts (SoD, etc), does the dark one know that this is not the first world? He knows about the snarl, and the fact that it was created because of the bickering of the gods, but maybe he doesn't know that it isn't this world that was being created. If he doesn't know this, he may not even know that the other gods can un-create the world, a fact that could quite possibly change his mind. Maybe I am missing something totally obvious?

He does know.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Redcloak in the crayon section says that "the world as we know it is actually the second world the gods created--because the Snarl destroyed the first, slaying several gods in the process." Redcloak got all his information from the Mantle, created by the Dark One.

And "Plan B" if the bit with the Gates failed was to allow the world to be destroyed, believing that the Dark One would get a say in the next world's creation.

[DaggerPen]

The reason I think that "defeat = alliance" is a potential outcome to Redcloak's arc is somewhat different than what would be served by defeating and then threatening Redcloak into compliance.

The thing is, when the Order pitches this plan to Redcloak, he has zero reason to take them at face value. He's a high level cleric on the cusp of his life's work facing off against a group who he knows full well has been working against the Plan for years. "Hey. Abandon this plan without fighting us for this totally better offer we swear is legit", while sincere on the Order's part, has the whiff of sucker's bait to it. Redcloak has zero reason to believe that this isn't some gambit by a group who knows they might not defeat him to end the Plan without risking their lives.

If defeated and spared, however, then Redcloak's position is entirely different. From his point of view, they would have no reason to spare him and make the offer again but that their offer may be legitimate.

Redcloak is committed to the Plan. He is willing not only to die for it, but to risk himself and every single person in the world, goblins included, being unmade, just to get the goblins a shot at a better life in the next world. Threatening him into it will have zero effect. But a lack of a threat to his life and an even tone when there is no other apparent reason to do so, especially if they show they are willing to let him bargain for other concessions in exchange for his cooperation, may get through to him.

Or it may not. Who knows!

As for why TDO is Evil, which I think was a discussion in this thread? Even assuming he's 100% on the up and up, the existence of Plan B tips him over to Evil for me. "I am willing to threaten the people responsible for my followers' plight in order to improve the lives of my living followers" may be Neutral, but "I am willing to sacrifice the very souls of thousands, perhaps millions, of innocents, including my followers, in order to make a better life for future hypothetical goblins" is Evil.

[woweedd]

And Durkon

Fair, although even Durkon has an unfortunate tendency to not object to horrible things for fear of rocking the boat.

[Ruck]

Now, goblins don't seem to have had inherently worse access to crops or livestock the way Native Americans did

Well, according to Redcloak, they were forced into the worst locales, swamps and such, where they couldn't realistically grow anything and had to resort to banditry and the like to survive.

[woweedd]

Well, according to Redcloak, they were forced into the worst locales, swamps and such, where they couldn't realistically grow anything and had to resort to banditry and the like to survive.

They also have short lifespans, subpar stats, and their population is routinely thinned by hordes of ultrapowerful meatheads.

[Shining Wrath]

Wow is it hard to take part in this discussion without bringing up things from SoD...

Spoiler: How to shake up Redcloak's faith in the plan: SoD spoilers

Show

The Plan basically boils down to either the Dark One being able to blackmail the other Gods with the threat of the Snarl in negotiations or the world being destroyed and the Dark One having a place in creating the next world where he can muscle through improvements for goblins like Monkey did with ninjas.

The hiccup in this plan is the assumption that this world is the second world, not the n-millionth world. In fact, all implications point to the Dark One not knowing just how many worlds the other gods have created. He may have been brought into the fold regarding the existence of the Snarl, but not this far into it.

It also seems the Dark One reclusing himself from the other gods is hurting his chances to be made part of the creation of the next world as seen by Sunna, Tyr, and Skadi's (simulated) attitudes in this latest comic. All of them seem perfectly willing to continue excluding the Dark One from inter-pantheon interactions (such as the creation of a new world) until a new god ascends with purple quiddity (or a different color) that is more amenable to their own interests. They are likely willing to continue on for millions more worlds before they consider working with the Dark One.

This means that because the Dark One doesn't know about the fear of making a new Snarl preventing in-person inter-pantheon debates/discussions/what-have-you and because he's been systematically cutting off all of the 'safe' means of communicating with him, he will likely not be informed when the gods start making the next world. Or the next one after that, so on and so forth.

The simple information that the gods are perfectly willing to exclude the Dark One in the creation of subsequent worlds may be enough to shake Redcloak's faith in the Plan. There's nothing like being told your 'sure thing' backup plan is actually the slimmest of chances.

I don't think TDO can force the other gods to let him participate in the creation of the new world if they destroy this one. That's why the Plan is needed.If he can't, and the new world is created without his participation, would that be a world without goblins? Would TDO die of starvation without worshipers?
Note that I assume that in each world the gods assume forms (to the extent they HAVE forms - we've seen Thor change sizes, why not shapeshifting) that match the new denizens thereof; in Sentient Movie Snacks world, Thor takes the form of, e.g., a giant pizza. So if the next world is a post-apocalyptic world of mutated cockroaches, the goblins would be a species of cockroach, and TDO a larger example of that species; if TDO is shut out, that species of cockroach would be absent, and he'd receive no worship.

If the Order can convince Redcloak that the gods can and will simply destroy this world and create a new one with no goblin-equivalents resulting in the death by starvation of his god, he can try to complete the ritual (and let TDO blackmail the other gods), or he can commune with his god and tell him Thor has a plan for a better world for everyone. Since rituals usually take a fairly long time to perform, I think that if Team Xykon begins the ritual, the gods will pull the plug on this world, and TDO will be screwed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm firmly of the camp that anyone thinks this is something that can be fought its way out of hasn't been reading the same comic that I have.
Thinking back on it, I don't think I can pin any major event that was solved with just fists/fireballs/stabbing. In fact every attempt that has taken that as it's primary path has made things worse rather than better. The OotS pretty much hasn't bet anything bigger than a random encounter with just combat. The Snarl was caused by straight conflict, the challenges of working with TDO was made that much worse by fighting, V's "kill first worry about the rest later" almost destroyed V's mind, Roy's death was caused by sword first diplomacy, as was Miko. O'Chul's did so much specifically by not going that route.

I also think that of all of the villians I've seen in almost any setting, Redcloak is the one to have the *wisdom* to see the advantages of working together and the personal experience to see that killing doesn't fix all problems.

That's a good point. The rules of this comic are rooted in D&D 3.5, but the feel is a lot more OD&D, where combat is generally a failstate.