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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Also, Miko's first line is "my blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible." "Violent fanatic" isn't a retcon; it's literally how she was introduced.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Roy and Haley (Haley especially) are good on at least as much of a technicality as Miko, if not more so.
    Haley sees herself as only Chaotic Good-ish, but that's her own insecurity speaking:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Facts about cosmological forces are largely unrelated to what people feel about themselves and others. Haley feels she is not "Good enough" based on a complex set of personal experiences and insecurities; the universe still dumps her in the Chaotic Good box, next to Elan and Shojo.
    As for Roy, while the Deva suggests he was one act away from Neutral, she also makes it clear that his Goodness is much less problematic than his Lawfulness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    it's literally how she was introduced.
    I did notice on rereading the discussion threads for that period, that most people thought she was an assassin until she was revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Javert's villainy only works because he's unjustly chasing a good man, which Miko does not do.

    She's like a nastier Javert in that she unjustly kills a good man (Shojo) and never repents of it.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-10-20 at 11:41 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    I tend to hesitate to judge harshly characters with obvious mental problems (such a PTSD or depression or other similar things). I tend to feel sorry or pity, more often than not.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    That's why I'm happy to agree that she was LG and not "N but somehow cheating her way into having paladin powers".

    As harsh as my assessments of her have been - there are much harsher ones out there.
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Care to support those claims? Haley certainly struggles with the nature of her own goodness, but I've never seen any particularly strong claims that Roy, even early Roy, was anything other than good.
    Abandoning Elan to die was approximately as bad as Miko killing Shojo. In fact, the latter was easier to reverse, since the caster levels and diamonds were on hand; it was only permanent because Shojo refused to return, so that's really on him.


    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Haley sees herself as only Chaotic Good-ish, but that's her own insecurity speaking:



    As for Roy, while the Deva suggests he was one act away from Neutral, she also makes it clear that his Goodness is much less problematic than his Lawfulness.
    This is because Rich's interpretation of cosmological alignment rules actively promotes irresponsibility. Belkar and Vaarsuvius are horrible people, and the other four are their enablers who constantly dodge taking any sort of responsibility.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Abandoning Elan to die was approximately as bad as Miko killing Shojo. In fact, the latter was easier to reverse, since the caster levels and diamonds were on hand
    The difference is Roy "reversed it" by rushing back and risking his own neck to rescue Elan (and the rest of the party as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Belkar and Vaarsuvius are horrible people, and the other four are their enablers who constantly dodge taking any sort of responsibility.
    Elan, at least, made his disapproval of V's actions clear:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html

    causing V to leave the group for a time.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-10-20 at 12:03 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    This is because Rich's interpretation of cosmological alignment rules actively promotes irresponsibility. Belkar and Vaarsuvius are horrible people, and the other four are their enablers who constantly dodge taking any sort of responsibility.
    Although I'll agree that Vaarsuvius used to be a horrible person, they've made great strides to overcome their flaws recently, so there is hope for them yet.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Abandoning Elan to die was approximately as bad as Miko killing Shojo. In fact, the latter was easier to reverse, since the caster levels and diamonds were on hand; it was only permanent because Shojo refused to return, so that's really on him.



    This is because Rich's interpretation of cosmological alignment rules actively promotes irresponsibility. Belkar and Vaarsuvius are horrible people, and the other four are their enablers who constantly dodge taking any sort of responsibility.
    Abandoning someone briefly but then going back to rescue them is not approximately as bad as actually murdering someone. If you think they are, I doubt you and I (and I'd wager several others) are going to agree on several other important aspects of morality that'll come up here.

    Belkar would be killing way more people if he were off on his own and will be dead by the end of the year, and the reason Vaarsuvius is sticking with them is because they're on a strict time table and don't have time to go "You're too evil to refuse your help to save the world".
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-10-20 at 12:08 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    And, more specifically, the difference was Roy admitted that he was wrong to leave Elan, while Miko never admitted she was wrong to kill Shojo. I'm also with hamish on her alignment.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The difference is Roy "reversed it" by rushing back and risking his own neck to rescue Elan (and the rest of the party as well).
    Miko was unable to do the equivalent, because she'd lost all paladin powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Elan, at least, made his disapproval of V's actions clear:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html

    causing V to leave the group for a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Although I'll agree that Vaarsuvius used to be a horrible person, they've made great strides to overcome their flaws recently, so there is hope for them yet.
    I'm not sure how either of these are germane to the discussion, since they both occurred after Miko's death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Abandoning someone but then going back for them is not approximately as bad as actually murdering someone. If you think they are, I doubt you and I (and I'd wager several others) are going to agree on several other important aspects of morality that'll come up here.

    Belkar would be killing way more people if he were off on his own and will be dead by the end of the year, and the reason Vaarsuvius is sticking with them is because they're on a strict time table and don't have time to go "You're too evil to refuse your help to save the world".
    It's D&D. Death, for the powerful and wealthy, is really quite cheap. Losing a level is unpleasant, but hardly impossible to overcome. Shojo only stayed dead because he chose it.

    And that's no excuse of any sort for Belkar. He should have been permanently dealt with long before now, indeed, before the first dungeon, if the rest of the party didn't consist of terrible enablers.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    That's why I'm happy to agree that she was LG and not "N but somehow cheating her way into having paladin powers".

    As harsh as my assessments of her have been - there are much harsher ones out there.
    I feel basically the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    It's D&D. Death, for the powerful and wealthy, is really quite cheap. Losing a level is unpleasant, but hardly impossible to overcome. Shojo only stayed dead because he chose it.

    And that's no excuse of any sort for Belkar. He should have been permanently dealt with long before now, indeed, before the first dungeon, if the rest of the party didn't consist of terrible enablers.
    Well, that's so clearly an attempt to free Miko of any responsibility for her actions, I'm honestly not sure how to respond to it. Whether it could be reversed or not isn't the point. Going "death is cheap" doesn't somehow make murder not be murder, it's just putting the responsibility on the victim.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-10-20 at 01:16 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Miko was unable to do the equivalent, because she'd lost all paladin powers.



    I'm not sure how either of these are germane to the discussion, since they both occurred after Miko's death.


    It's D&D. Death, for the powerful and wealthy, is really quite cheap. Losing a level is unpleasant, but hardly impossible to overcome. Shojo only stayed dead because he chose it.

    And that's no excuse of any sort for Belkar. He should have been permanently dealt with long before now, indeed, before the first dungeon, if the rest of the party didn't consist of terrible enablers.
    Paladins don't get resurrection anyway, so im not sure why the state of her powers matter at all? And unlike Roy, she doubled down on her mistakes instead of recognizing them and attempting to correct them.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    He should have been permanently dealt with long before now, indeed, before the first dungeon, if the rest of the party didn't consist of terrible enablers.
    Durkon was the one who talked Roy into keeping the party going in Origin of PCs, instead of just dumping the rest of the party (other than Durkon himself) and starting again.
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Paladins don't get resurrection anyway, so im not sure why the state of her powers matter at all? And unlike Roy, she doubled down on her mistakes instead of recognizing them and attempting to correct them.
    Ah, I thought they did. But it's ultimately pointless, because at this point of the story, it's already irrevocably terrible and I'm more interested in critiquing the narrative and thought processes that led to this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Durkon was the one who talked Roy into keeping the party going in Origin of PCs, instead of just dumping the rest of the party (other than Durkon himself) and starting again.
    Then I'm very happy to blame him as well.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    I'm more interested in critiquing the narrative and thought processes that led to this point.
    The point of the story is to criticise many classic D&D tropes.

    Miko was made to exemplify one such criticism - but she's far from the only such character whose arc was used to do this.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-10-20 at 12:19 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #316
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Ah, I thought they did. But it's ultimately pointless, because at this point of the story, it's already irrevocably terrible and I'm more interested in critiquing the narrative and thought processes that led to this point.
    Youre welcome to do so, but im unclear what your criticism is supposed to be, other than that you apparently don't like the fact that Miko was an antagonist who became a fully fledged villain?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    I'll just point out that there might not be much point in discussing the topic of morality with someone who has used victim-blaming to free a murderer of responsibility for her actions. (i.e. going that because Shojo could be potentially be resurrected, it makes murdering him less bad, and because he refused resurrection, that basically puts the fault of his death on him.)
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-10-20 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The point of the story is to criticise many classic D&D tropes.

    Miko was made to exemplify one such criticism - but she's far from the only such character whose arc was used to do this.
    True, but she was by far the worst handled, because all of her initial persecution of the Order was justified, and I would say that comparing her to Javert is actually an insult to Les Miserables. Valjean is a good man ruined by a corrupt, unjust judiciary; the Order of the Stick is a pack of terminally irresponsible murderhobos who are let off by a corrupt, unjust judiciary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre welcome to do so, but im unclear what your criticism is supposed to be, other than that you apparently don't like the fact that Miko was an antagonist who became a fully fledged villain?
    It's a bit like making the Thenardiers the heroes of Les Mis and setting Javert against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I'll just point out that there might not be much point in discussing the topic of morality with someone who has used victim-blaming to free a murderer of responsibility for their actions.
    Hardly. I was talking about the severity of the action that Miko specifically took, not the responsibility. Which is still Miko's obviously.
    Last edited by TidePriestess; 2018-10-20 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    True, but she was by far the worst handled, because all of her initial persecution of the Order was justified, and I would say that comparing her to Javert is actually an insult to Les Miserables. Valjean is a good man ruined by a corrupt, unjust judiciary; the Order of the Stick is a pack of terminally irresponsible murderhobos who are let off by a corrupt, unjust judiciary.


    It's a bit like making the Thenardiers the heroes of Les Mis and setting Javert against them.


    Hardly. I was talking about the severity of the action that Miko specifically took, not the responsibility. Which is still Miko's obviously.
    Blaming the Order for the things Miko had done seems to A: be making the same mistakes that led to Miko's Fall and death, and B: entirely missing the point of the character.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Hardly. I was talking about the severity of the action that Miko specifically took, not the responsibility. Which is still Miko's obviously.
    And the severity is murder. Which you seem to be claiming is "less severe" because it was possible to raise Shojo. And that because he refused such it also makes it less bad.

    All arguments I reject. Miko showed no signs of thinking or caring about any of those things.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-10-20 at 12:34 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    the Order of the Stick is a pack of terminally irresponsible murderhobos who are let off by a corrupt, unjust judiciary.
    In Origin of PCs, Roy leaves an adventuring group (which includes a paladin) specifically because they are murderhobos.
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Blaming the Order for the things Miko had done seems to A: be making the same mistakes that led to Miko's Fall and death, and B: entirely missing the point of the character.
    The point of the character is either artistically incoherent or outright reprehensible. Personally, I think it's the former, since I don't think Rich is that morally bankrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    And the severity is murder. Which you seem to be claiming is "less severe" because it was possible to raise Shojo. And that because he refused such it also makes it less bad.

    All arguments I reject. Miko showed no signs of thinking or caring about any of those things.
    Well, yeah. I would say it's obvious that, for instance, stealing $500 from a person who has only $1,000 is of far greater severity than stealing the same from someone who has $5,000,000, despite the fact that the dollar amount and action are the same. Similarly, it's significantly worse to kill someone who lacks the means for resurrection (especially so close by) than to kill someone who doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In Origin of PCs, Roy leaves an adventuring group (which includes a paladin) specifically because they are murderhobos.
    What does this have to do with the price of tea in Tibet? It doesn't make the Order not that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    The point of the character is either artistically incoherent or outright reprehensible. Personally, I think it's the former, since I don't think Rich is that morally bankrupt.
    Youre doing a good job of sounding angry, but not a particularly good job of actually explaining your stance. Throwing around buzzwords is not the same thing as an explanation.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    let off by a corrupt, unjust judiciary.
    They should never have been put on trial in the first place - they were only done so to justify the "get them here" thing.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

    And Shojo knew they were "innocent of true wrongdoing" - at least in the context of the Gate destruction.

    Which is probably why "It was an illegitimate authority" is all the defence Roy needs to make, when the Deva brings up "resisting arrest"

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Well, yeah. I would say it's obvious that, for instance, stealing $500 from a person who has only $1,000 is of far greater severity than stealing the same from someone who has $5,000,000, despite the fact that the dollar amount and action are the same. Similarly, it's significantly worse to kill someone who lacks the means for resurrection (especially so close by) than to kill someone who doesn't.
    Except, in this instance, it's less taking money from someone who needed it, and more intentionally trying to cripple someone, who also happens to have access to the best medical care on the planet.

    That the person is much more likely to heal than an average person doesn't somehow make the intention and attempt to permanently cripple them less bad.

    Miko did not kill Shojo with the forethought of "he can/probably will be revived" she did so with the intention of it being permanent, and had she not fallen/been detained, she very likely would have tried to kill him again even if he did get resurrected. And she never truly accepted that she was in the wrong for her actions. Intentions and reflection might not matter to you, but they matter to most people, not just outcome.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-10-20 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    It doesn't make the Order not that.
    It strongly implies that Roy, at least, is not that.

    Belkar is the only openly murderhobo member:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html

    and (besides V) the other four glare at him when he reiterates the murderhobo credo.
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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    The point of the character is either artistically incoherent or outright reprehensible. Personally, I think it's the former, since I don't think Rich is that morally bankrupt.


    Well, yeah. I would say it's obvious that, for instance, stealing $500 from a person who has only $1,000 is of far greater severity than stealing the same from someone who has $5,000,000, despite the fact that the dollar amount and action are the same. Similarly, it's significantly worse to kill someone who lacks the means for resurrection (especially so close by) than to kill someone who doesn't.


    What does this have to do with the price of tea in Tibet? It doesn't make the Order not that.
    They are both Evil, though,. And Roy acknowledged and repaired his mistakes. If Roy hadn't gone back, his Goodness would have been seriously stained, and that was made clear by quite-literal Word of God. That said, Belkar...OK, here's where things get muddy. Ya see, I think Rich relasizes Belkar's character is kinda an impediment to the story he wants to tell. He wasn't willing to kill him off, back then , both because he's good for punchlines and because the readers would riot, but I don't think it's a coincidence that, right around the time the story starting asking to be taken seriously, Belkar got the Mark of Justice, thus limiting how sadistic he could be. Then, once that was removed, he was given a incentive to keep up a facade of co-operation. His behavior wasn't actually a problem back in the dungeon, because, in a dungeon, most things your un itno want to kill you, so his murderous tendencies were somewhat justified. It's only once the party moved out of that environment that things got weird, hence hwy Rich kneecapped him.I mean, heck, recently, he hasn't done much Evil. If I only had the current book to gon on, h'd probably only be Chaotic Neutral.

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    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre doing a good job of sounding angry, but not a particularly good job of actually explaining your stance. Throwing around buzzwords is not the same thing as an explanation.
    Allow me to reiterate, then: Miko does not work as an antagonist because she is in the right to act against the Order of the Stick in the manner that she does, at least until after Shojo is killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    They should never have been put on trial in the first place - they were only done so to justify the "get them here" thing.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

    And Shojo knew they were "innocent of true wrongdoing" - at least in the context of the Gate destruction.

    Which is probably why "It was an illegitimate authority" is all the defence Roy needs to make, when the Deva brings up "resisting arrest"

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html
    For that particular crime. There are quite a few others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Except, in this instance, it's less taking money from someone who needed it, and more intentionally trying to cripple someone, who also happens to have access to the best medical care on the planet.

    That the person is much more likely to heal than an average person doesn't somehow make the intention and attempt to permanently cripple them less bad.

    Miko did not kill Shojo with the forethought of "he can/probably will be revived" she did so with the intention of it being permanent, and had she not fallen/been detained, she very likely would have tried to kill him again even if he did get resurrected. And she never truly accepted that she was in the wrong for her actions. Intentions and reflection might not matter to you, but they matter to most people, not just outcome.
    I respect your opinion. Since Shojo is tangential to my point, I'll drop the argument here and give you the last word.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It strongly implies that Roy, at least, is not that.

    Belkar is the only openly murderhobo member:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html

    and (besides V) the other four glare at him when he reiterates the murderhobo credo.
    I do not consider this relevant. Their choosing not to stop his murderhobo actions makes them guilty as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    They are both Evil, though,. And Roy acknowledged and repaired his mistakes. If Roy hadn't gone back, his Goodness would have been seriously stained, and that was made clear by quite-literal Word of God. That said, Belkar...OK, here's where things get muddy. Ya see, I think Rich relasizes Belkar's character is kinda an impediment to the story he wants to tell. He wasn't willing to kill him off, back then , both because he's good for punchlines and because the readers would riot, but I don't think it's a coincidence that, right around the time the story starting asking to be taken seriously, Belkar got the Mark of Justice, thus limiting how sadistic he could be. Then, once that was removed, he was given a incentive to keep up a facade of co-operation. His behavior wasn't actually a problem back in the dungeon, because, in a dungeon, most things your un itno want to kill you, so his murderous tendencies were somewhat justified. It's only once the party moved out of that environment that things got weird, hence hwy Rich kneecapped him.I mean, heck, recently, he hasn't done much Evil. If I only had the current book to gon on, h'd probably only be Chaotic Neutral.
    Yes, the Belkar part is clear. I think that keeping him alive was a mistake, but it's not the worst mistake Rich has made.

  29. - Top - End - #329
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Allow me to reiterate, then: Miko does not work as an antagonist because she is in the right to act against the Order of the Stick in the manner that she does, at least until after Shojo is killed.


    For that particular crime. There are quite a few others.


    I respect your opinion. Since Shojo is tangential to my point, I'll drop the argument here and give you the last word.


    I do not consider this relevant. Their choosing not to stop his murderhobo actions makes them guilty as well.


    Yes, the Belkar part is clear. I think that keeping him alive was a mistake, but it's not the worst mistake Rich has made.
    Out of curiosity, what IS the worst mistake you think he's made...? Also, what crimes have they committed at that point in the story, that would be under legal jurisdiction?

  30. - Top - End - #330
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Why are Miko's parents dead?

    Paladins policing the rest of the party (because if they don't they'll lose their powers) is one of the things that tends to break up gaming groups.

    Decide To React Differently

    The monk could have chosen (for example) to lecture the bard on how his theft had brought him nothing but misery. He chose to create player conflict when it was just as easy to not.

    Personally, I blame the paladin for this. The original paladin class created the precedent for one player thinking he has the right to dictate the morality of other players. That drives me nuts. Ever since, players who select a Lawful Good character automatically assume it is up to them to police the rest of the party, and too often, the rest of the party lets them. As far as I'm concerned, no player has the right to tell another player how to act. Lawful Good is not the "right" way to be, and it is unacceptable to push your character's ideals on other players whether they want them or not.



    This "police syndrome" was one thing Miko was created for (hence her being a paladin and not, say, a multiclass cleric-ranger - who could also have filled the "kill Shojo" plot role.)


    Quote Originally Posted by TidePriestess View Post
    Their choosing not to stop his murderhobo actions makes them guilty as well.
    And they do, when he's about to do so in front of them, stop him:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html

    Hence his complaint that they're "cramping his style".
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-10-20 at 12:58 PM.
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