Redesigned Sorcerer - PEACH

[Mike Miller]

I dislike dead levels and the sorcerer is full of them. At my table, we have infinite cantrip usage a la 5th ed, so keep that in mind for what I have proposed. My goal is to make the sorcerer more interesting and actually provide something unique. My group is typically a mid optimization group, if that helps at all with considering the power balance of the class. Please let me know what you think.

Redesigned Sorcerer

Spoiler: table

Show

Level	BAB	Special
1	Saves	Silent Cantrips
2	Spells per	Spell Secret Quicken Spell
3	day all	Still Cantrips
4	the same	Spell Secret Twin Spell
5	as the	Bonus Feat
6	default	Spell Secret Irresistible Spell
7	sorcerer	Bonus Spell Known
8		Spell Secret Extend Spell
9		Maximize Cantrips
10		Spell Secret Maximize Spell; Bonus Feat
11		Quick Cantrips
12		Spell Secret Empower Spell
13		Bonus Spell Known
14		Spell Secret Chain Spell
15		Bonus Feat
16		Spell Secret Repeat Spell
17		Twin Cantrips
18		Spell Secret Sculpt Spell
19		Bonus Spell Known
20		Spell Secret Reach Spell; Bonus Feat

X Cantrips: These abilities permanently affect all cantrips with the corresponding metamagic ability. They are cumulative.

Spell Secret X Spell: At every even level, the sorcerer gains a spell secret. Upon reaching one of these levels, the sorcerer chooses a known spell to be permanently affected by that particular metamagic ability. That spell will always be affected by the metamagic ability even if the sorcerer doesn't have the corresponding feat. It also doesn't increase the spell slot required for the spell, although it still takes a full round. There is a special exception of Quicken Spell at level 2 which is available to this sorcerer, unlike normal spontaneous casters. Each spell can only be affected by a single spell secret.

Bonus Feat: As per wizard bonus feat list.

Bonus Spell Known: Upon reaching 7th, 13th, and 19th level, the sorcerer learns a bonus spell of any level currently available.

(I use the errata for Irresistible spell to make it +10 to the save DC)
Do you see anything particularly good or bad here? Something that should be changed or clarified? My group typically doesn't break the game, but I do realize there is potential for it here. We have a bit of a gentleman's agreement to not cheese the system. Still, feel free to point out terrifying combinations. Thank you

[nineGardens]

I have no expertise to comment on the spell power... but the idea of ultra-super-meta cantrips is hilarious, and sounds fun to play.


The idea of spell secret sounds super cool....
but I do wonder to what extent I'd expect the sorcery to just pile one dozen buffs on a spell and then constantly use that as there "Go to" spell.... Actually I guess spell levels solves that, your quickened spell has to be low level, so by the time you go about chaining a spell, you'll probably pick something higher.

[Mike Miller]

I tried to use the more powerful metamagic earlier to combat the stacking of too powerful spells. As you mentioned, it would be a low level spell if lots are stacked.

[nonsi]

I tried to use the more powerful metamagic earlier to combat the stacking of too powerful spells. As you mentioned, it would be a low level spell if lots are stacked.

Magic Missile!

Now all you need is Transdimensional Spell to deal with incorporeal/phased opponents and Heighten Spell to set yourself a practically unlimited supply of arsenal.

[noob]

Yes it might interact weirdly with the force missile mage prc.

[Mike Miller]

Magic missile would make a powerful blaster, but not too OP.

[Nifft]

Magic Missile!

Now all you need is Transdimensional Spell to deal with incorporeal/phased opponents

[Force] effects usually do that already, no?

[SodaQueen]

Sorcerers don't have dead levels, they get spells at every level. It reminds me of the old Wizard's article about how the monk was a pinnacle of balanced class design because it got abilities at every level, while wizards and sorcerers need more stuff to keep up with the monk.

If you're not concerned with balance, go nuts. But sorcerers are powerful enough as is.

[Mike Miller]

My group generally doesn't do sorcs because other casters are "better"/have more interesting things/prestige classes. I understand they aren't truly dead levels because of spellcasting, but that is relatively boring. To some extent this is an attempt to incentivize the players to use the sorcerer, but also an attempt to make the sorcerer unique through a different class feature: permanent metamagic.

I am not worried about power levels because of my experience with them. If magic missile is the most frightening use of this class in terms of power, I think it is just fine. I don't have a lot of dm experience beyond level 14 or so, so that would be where I would benefit the most with input.

[Kish]

Interesting design, and not so clearly superior to wizards that it's a problem. I'm curious about how this would play.

[Goaty14]

I don't like it -- what's the reason to leave it behind wizards for spell level access?

but I do wonder to what extent I'd expect the sorcery to just pile one dozen buffs on a spell and then constantly use that as there "Go to" spell....

Spoiler

Show

[Mike Miller]

I don't like it -- what's the reason to leave it behind wizards for spell level access?

Mostly because that wasn't my focus. I wouldn't mind giving all spontaneous casters the same "odd level = new spell level" progression in my games. Hypothetically, what would you think of it if that change was made? You didn't really say why you didn't like it. There was just the implication of spell level access.

[Maat Mons]

At my table, we have infinite cantrip usage a la 5th ed

Pathfinder does that too. And it's not a bad start, but I feel like cantrips are quickly overshadowed by higher-level spells. Making them scale with level would help keep things relevant. The scaling of reserve feats is a decent benchmark.

Sorcerers don't have dead levels, they get spells at every level.

If there are prestige classes that provide meaningful class features and fully advance spellcasting, why would anyone take sorcerer the whole way through? A base class that no one would ever want to finish is bad game design.

If a prestige class doesn't fully advance spellcasting, then it's actually kind of a trap for people who don't realize how valuable caster levels are. And trap options are also bad game design. If prestige classes don't offer meaningful benefits, why would anyone ever take them? Writing up classes that you know no one will ever use is, once again, bad game design.

So, as long as sorcerer lacks class features in the "special" column, there's no good way of handling prestige classes for casters. And, of course, designing one class that throws a wrench into your ability to design other, major aspects of your system is... bad game design.

So, actually, yes. The way 3.5 designed the sorcerer was poorly thought out.

[SodaQueen]

If there are prestige classes that provide meaningful class features and fully advance spellcasting, why would anyone take sorcerer the whole way through? A base class that no one would ever want to finish is bad game design.

If a prestige class doesn't fully advance spellcasting, then it's actually kind of a trap for people who don't realize how valuable caster levels are. And trap options are also bad game design. If prestige classes don't offer meaningful benefits, why would anyone ever take them? Writing up classes that you know no one will ever use is, once again, bad game design.

So, as long as sorcerer lacks class features in the "special" column, there's no good way of handling prestige classes for casters. And, of course, designing one class that throws a wrench into your ability to design other, major aspects of your system is... bad game design.

So, actually, yes. The way 3.5 designed the sorcerer was poorly thought out.

...what?

Literally all I said was that sorcerers have no dead levels and that this homebrew would just add to their power. So I'm left very confused and wondering if you meant to quote someone else?

For the record, I completely agree with you on every point but am very confused on how my comment illicited your response.

[nonsi]

Magic missile would make a powerful blaster, but not too OP.

Maximize + empower + twin + repeat + chain + irresistible = [4 times 37 HP per target] vs. up to 40 targets with no save.
And you have Quicken, so that's twice per round.
Every round!
That's crazy.
And I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to come up with a feat that would allow a particular spell (Magic Missile) to overcome a particular other spell (Shield).


Another broken option:
Quicken Irresistible Charm Person. An "I Win" button.

[Maat Mons]

...what?

You appeared to be arguing against redesigning sorcerer with class features above and beyond spellcasting.

[nonsi]

Pathfinder does that too. And it's not a bad start, but I feel like cantrips are quickly overshadowed by higher-level spells. Making them scale with level would help keep things relevant. The scaling of reserve feats is a decent benchmark.





If there are prestige classes that provide meaningful class features and fully advance spellcasting, why would anyone take sorcerer the whole way through? A base class that no one would ever want to finish is bad game design.

If a prestige class doesn't fully advance spellcasting, then it's actually kind of a trap for people who don't realize how valuable caster levels are. And trap options are also bad game design. If prestige classes don't offer meaningful benefits, why would anyone ever take them? Writing up classes that you know no one will ever use is, once again, bad game design.

So, as long as sorcerer lacks class features in the "special" column, there's no good way of handling prestige classes for casters. And, of course, designing one class that throws a wrench into your ability to design other, major aspects of your system is... bad game design.

So, actually, yes. The way 3.5 designed the sorcerer was poorly thought out.

Btw, if the Sorc had a kickass familiar (something similar to what's suggested here), maybe it could offset PrC abilities.

[ericgrau]

My group generally doesn't do sorcs because other casters are "better"/have more interesting things/prestige classes. I understand they aren't truly dead levels because of spellcasting, but that is relatively boring. To some extent this is an attempt to incentivize the players to use the sorcerer, but also an attempt to make the sorcerer unique through a different class feature: permanent metamagic.

I am not worried about power levels because of my experience with them. If magic missile is the most frightening use of this class in terms of power, I think it is just fine. I don't have a lot of dm experience beyond level 14 or so, so that would be where I would benefit the most with input.

They're missing out because sorcerers are loads of fun regardless. Sounds like prejudice. I'd give sorcerers just enough of a boost to get them played and not so much to go overboard. They may not break the game with these add-ons like a wizard theoretically could, but these add-ons could break the game for a more realistic level of game-play. Even among fairly high optimization.

Spell secret seems clunky because for some random reason you can only have certain metamagic for certain level spells. Because eventually you'll want to stop buffing that low or mid level spell and switch to multi-buffing some mid or high level spell instead. And since you said you can stack multiple, players will pick among a very narrow selection of spells they benefit both from the current spell secret and the next 1-2. That's very limiting. I would instead allow 2-4 levels of metamagic from one or multiple metamagic feats of the player's choosing. The number of metamagic levels can either a flat number or a scaling number. And no stacking of spell secrets on the some spell, but players may still boost it with metamagic normally. You could force the player to pick different spell secret metamagic each time or allow duplicates.

Spell secret is still crazy powerful. You're still giving the sorcerer a spell that is almost as good as one 2-4 levels higher than what he could normally cast. That may be totally ok if your players need that much incentive to try a sorcerer. But like I said use the minimum boost you need to encourage sorcerers without letting it get out of hand. I think at least some of your players will be grateful to find out how interesting and fun this class can be. Just don't let them wreck the campaign in the process.

For example as written (before above fixes) I might do quickened colorsprays to stun-spam foes even at higher levels. Twin is harder, maybe twin glitterdust for 2 saves I suppose. Irresistible spell on slow maybe maybe stinking cloud. Extend spell suddenly not crazy, so who cares. Maximize cone of cold to wipe most groups in 2 rounds. Chain spell has wide possibilities of course. Perhaps chained insanity. At all levels you see this sorcerer wrecking encounters by spamming secret spells. Simply spamming quickened colorspray+irresistible slow instantly ruins most monsters' days and puts the party into cleanup after the sorcerer goes. Even the rare monsters with good standard action ranged attacks are probably squishy and leaving themselves open to full attacks. Or readied actions to disrupt (Sp) or casting. You can 5-foot as part of a readied action in case the foe tries to 5-foot away before the (Sp) or casting. And I didn't even stack multiple metamagics on one spell to make things worse as others have shown.

Capping it at +2 might make it not so insane, in addition to letting the players pick the metamagic and not allowing stacking multiple spell secrets onto the same spell. Or any effective level of 2 higher than the sorcerer's max spell level. So +2 on his max spell level, +3 on a spell 1 level lower than his max, +4 on a spell 2 levels lower than his max, or etc. by the player's choice.

[Mike Miller]

Maximize + empower + twin + repeat + chain + irresistible = [4 times 37 HP per target] vs. up to 40 targets with no save.
And you have Quicken, so that's twice per round.
Every round!
That's crazy.
And I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to come up with a feat that would allow a particular spell (Magic Missile) to overcome a particular other spell (Shield).


Another broken option:
Quicken Irresistible Charm Person. An "I Win" button.

For one thing, counterspelling exists. Also shield, as you mentioned. And you can't chain magic missile.

[SodaQueen]

You appeared to be arguing against redesigning sorcerer with class features above and beyond spellcasting.

Well, I pretty clearly wasn't.

[nonsi]

For one thing, counterspelling exists.

Counterspelling is only really a practical option with Reactive Counterspell....... 3 feats are required for that.

Also shield, as you mentioned.

So, any opponent w/o Shield on (or behind a serious barrier) is gonna get it hard.

And you can't chain magic missile.

You're right. So That's a guaranteed 296 per round "only" once. (280 if you calculate Maximize per missile). This takes most CR 20 opponents out of the equation in a single round and is guaranteed to take any of them (except the Tarrasque) in 3 rounds - single-handed.
Meteor Swarm, for comparison, has a maximum damage of 192. Yes, it's an AoE spell, but you can't spam too many of those (9th SL), you're subject to spell failure (getting hit) and the targets are allowed a save vs. each explosion.
Even a maximized Disintegrate leaves you exposed and allows a save. And at those levels you can expect your opponents to make their saves more often than not.

[Maat Mons]

Counterspelling is only really a practical option with Reactive Counterspell

I'd argue that it's only practical with Divine Defiance.

[nonsi]

I'd argue that it's only practical with Divine Defiance.

. . . and Improved Counterspell (one cannot rely on having a one of two spells prepared in advance).

[Mike Miller]

Counterspelling is only really a practical option with Reactive Counterspell....... 3 feats are required for that.





So, any opponent w/o Shield on (or behind a serious barrier) is gonna get it hard.





You're right. So That's a guaranteed 296 per round "only" once. (280 if you calculate Maximize per missile). This takes most CR 20 opponents out of the equation in a single round and is guaranteed to take any of them (except the Tarrasque) in 3 rounds - single-handed.
Meteor Swarm, for comparison, has a maximum damage of 192. Yes, it's an AoE spell, but you can't spam too many of those (9th SL), you're subject to spell failure (getting hit) and the targets are allowed a save vs. each explosion.
Even a maximized Disintegrate leaves you exposed and allows a save. And at those levels you can expect your opponents to make their saves more often than not.

This assumes the repeat spell is already in effect?
It is high damage, I approve.

[nonsi]

This assumes the repeat spell is already in effect?

Except for dispelling/disjunction/A-M (maybe also plane-shifting, but that's debatable), once the spell is cast, in effect it already had happened, even if with a delay of 1 round.

It is high damage, I approve.

That, among many other possible examples, is why I think you should go for something more predictable, like my proposed Familiar fix (or something else that scales nicely with level progression).
I understand where you're coming from, but you can't possibly know all the loopholes of all official spells (not to mention homebrew spells) to account for them. There are just too many ways where things can go wrong and you really don't need the headache.

[Goaty14]

Mostly because that wasn't my focus. I wouldn't mind giving all spontaneous casters the same "odd level = new spell level" progression in my games. Hypothetically, what would you think of it if that change was made? You didn't really say why you didn't like it. There was just the implication of spell level access.

Yes, and spell level access is huge. Say the campaign starts at 15th level (a nice, round number). The sorcerer gets 7th level spells, and the wizard gets 8th level spells. Sorcerers losing caster levels (say, they wanna be a gish or try a cool PrC) can only lose 2 before they don't get access to 9ths. Wizards? Can lose 3, and can make up the lack of spells known. It also means that sorc has to wait until level 7 to access PrCs.

[Kish]

It might be better to make it that the automatic metamagic feats have to be applied to different spells, so that the sorcerer doesn't become a "I didn't bother to figure out more than one of my spells known because it's never going to matter" walking Magic Missile turret.

[noob]

It might be better to make it that the automatic metamagic feats have to be applied to different spells, so that the sorcerer doesn't become a "I didn't bother to figure out more than one of my spells known because it's never going to matter" walking Magic Missile turret.

Wait you mean that using over and over the same spell is not a good way of playing?

[Mike Miller]

Ok, I changed the description for the spell secret to only allow a single spell secret per spell. I think it is less scary than you all, but my group plays nice. I can see the potential for abuse.