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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You understand the process but not the starting point. If you had a better understanding of their culture/background you would understand their actions just fine.
    Other cultures? I'm talking about the average comment section.
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Other cultures? I'm talking about the average comment section.
    Hence "/background". Let me put this another way. A normal wolf could never do what Florence is doing because their thought processes are different even if they share similar instincts. It might take you some effort but you can put yourself in the shoes of a random commenter section and if you got to know them well enough you could understand why they wrote what they wrote. Because you thought processes are the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Hence "/background". Let me put this another way. A normal wolf could never do what Florence is doing because their thought processes are different even if they share similar instincts. It might take you some effort but you can put yourself in the shoes of a random commenter section and if you got to know them well enough you could understand why they wrote what they wrote. Because you thought processes are the same.
    I might add to that, that humans did not change all that much in the last couple of millenia. We can tell a lot from the texts left behind like for example this merchant complaining to an insincere business partner. We may be thousands of years apart but we can still relate to this man. Or the graffiti like examples given here. It is easier for us to understand the cultural context of ye olden times, since we have access to history, knowledge and art from that time. The other way around would require some adjustment period for an ancient person to take the modern world in as it would be quite a shock. But those emotions he or she would feel? We would understand that very well and could relate. Still, that person whisked away from the past would also be able to relate to us after some time. Under all that culture and technological development we are still the same people.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You understand the process but not the starting point. If you had a better understanding of their culture/background you would understand their actions just fine.
    See, that mindset is something even our grandparents would not understand. Your group is right, all other groups are wrong, the only way to fix that is to destroy their group and forcibly assimilate them into your group through cultural erasure. And even then they'll still be third class citizens.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    See, that mindset is something even our grandparents would not understand. Your group is right, all other groups are wrong, the only way to fix that is to destroy their group and forcibly assimilate them into your group through cultural erasure. And even then they'll still be third class citizens.
    You have not met my grandparents.

    No seriously, people have been decrying this mindset for literal centuries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.
    I am not going to write an essay here (especially since that's a tangent to what we were talking about) but know that I think you are wrong.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-11-18 at 11:56 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And yet it's still the dominant mindset on the planet as witnessed by *waves hand at the news*.
    So your defense for the assertion that people from three generations ago wouldn’t understand today’s world is that their attitudes match modern attitudes?

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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    No, that they wouldn't understand me. As I explicitly stated.

  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it. The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all. She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can). Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it. The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all. She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can). Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.
    Not just your hearing. Constant exposition to high amplitude vibrations away from our hearing range can have a variety of adverse effects. Mostly things like dizziness, headaches, nausea etc. but I would not rule out long term effects. There is a reason we try to eliminate those even if we do not hear them, but we are most likely less diligent in that than in the case of sounds we do hear.
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    While looking for when Florence complains about human industrial design, I stumbled upon her claim that her feet are much smaller. Isn't she digitigrade, meaning her feet are possibly larger than Niomi's, just with a smaller walking surface than the plantigrade ape?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    She probably just considers her paws her feet. It's a common phrasing among non-biologists (which is most pet owners, after all).

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    And yet further evidence that Florence is both smarter than the average naked ape and aware of it. The range of human abilities runs from drooling idiot to genius, after all. She also is aware of her limitations (including that humans have an annoying tendency to put the noise of our machinery in the range that we cannot hear but dogs can). Although I could swear that loud noises that you can't hear can nevertheless impact your hearing.
    Oh yeah. Florence is -far- above the average naked ape in mental ability. She is a gravity engineer.
    Some of the competition have problems tying their own shoes. No further evidence needed.

    Would perhaps call what she says a white lie. She fall within the human range. Not "well" within it, as that sounds like she is close to average.
    While in Florence case, i dont think she has meet anyone other than Doctor Bowman who were smarter than her.
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    While in Florence case, i dont think she has meet anyone other than Doctor Bowman who were smarter than her.
    Intelligence is more complex than a simple score like in D&D. She's an engineer so she has a very good knowledge of physics and technology, but for some things, she had to admit that Sam was smarter than her.
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    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    If you want a OotS style Touhou avatar, send me a request.

    Steam name: memnarch. Same avatar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
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  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    This discussion brings to mind the competent side of the dunning-kruger effect or at least showcases her humility: she underestimates her own mind because she knows enough to be aware of her imperfections and failings and thus focuses on the areas where she fails as her comparison for intelligence while inadvertently showing off where her skills lie by talking about her intelligence.

    She is probably correct about her statements mind you, she probably isn't technically a genius, Sam is probably smarter than her in some areas and she isn't "smart as a human" but when your basis for a human being smarter than you are some of the most famous minds of the 20th or 21st centuries, thats kind of high standards cause I doubt most humans would be able to do what Feynman did either. she isn't comparing herself to the average, she is comparing herself to the people who got performance over stability. Dr. Bowman knew enough to make someone who is smart but not too smart.
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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    The thing is "intelligence" is an umbrella term covering various different things. Florence is better at somenof them than the average human and worse at others. You can't ever say that someone is more intelligent than average because we don't have a robust definition of what intelligence means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    And then there's the fact that Florence's specialist engineering skillsets involve a whole lot of math, which is easy for a computer to do, and that the things she's not so good at involve complicated social engineering, which is famously very hard for a computer to do.

    Chances are, she knows this. In a setting with lots of machine intelligences running around, there's absolutely going to be talk about what sorts of tasks humans are better at than AIs, and so Florence probably absorbed that sort of sentiment as part of her reasoning for thinking she isn't as smart as a human.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Yeah, her meeting with Max showed he was working on aspects of the robot problem she hadn't even realized existed.

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Then again she had been working on the problem for about a week while he had been working on it for years. I'm sure she would have figured out most of the things Max realized eventually. There would only have been a few major apocalypses from Dvorak. Shipments of waffle irons and toasters would ravage the land. Everyone would be forced to eat lichen bread. Or pie. They could subsist on pie for a few years while they figured out how to fix the mess that Mr Kornada made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Intelligence is more complex than a simple score like in D&D. She's an engineer so she has a very good knowledge of physics and technology, but for some things, she had to admit that Sam was smarter than her.
    Yeah no. Your link doesnt even say Sam was smarter than her. Just that his methods were working better.

    The thing is "intelligence" is an umbrella term covering various different things. Florence is better at somenof them than the average human and worse at others. You can't ever say that someone is more intelligent than average because we don't have a robust definition of what intelligence means.
    You dont need a robust definition of intelligence to compare someone to the average. All it means is that you get a vague placement of them at best.
    Thankfully Florence scores so high thats not an issue. For some things she is exceptionally higher than the average human. For others she is at the very worst case average.
    Meaning her final score is quite a bit above average.

    And then there's the fact that Florence's specialist engineering skillsets involve a whole lot of math, which is easy for a computer to do, and that the things she's not so good at involve complicated social engineering, which is famously very hard for a computer to do.
    Do we have any evidence for Florence being bad at social engineering?
    Because as such her social skills also seems generally top notch. She is aware of how to put herself in someone elses shoes. And to use that understanding of their perspective to manipulate them.
    That already put her far above the average human. Just for an example, she got Mister Konova up to roof. And have managed to make Sam a tiny bit more responsible.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Rereading the comic. Now I want Peter Cushing to play the chief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
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  25. - Top - End - #445
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Do we have any evidence for Florence being bad at social engineering?
    Because as such her social skills also seems generally top notch. She is aware of how to put herself in someone elses shoes. And to use that understanding of their perspective to manipulate them.
    That already put her far above the average human. Just for an example, she got Mister Konova up to roof. And have managed to make Sam a tiny bit more responsible.
    To add to that: she also has good enough understanding of human nature that she was able to explain men and women shopping habits or at least propose a viable theory on a short notice.

    Also of note is that engineering might involve math, but the whole required skillset is not something we can offload to a computer. Sure, there are a lot of numbers to crunch, but you have to make a lot of decisions and intuitive leaps before there is anything to calculate. Afterwards there is also need for someone to analyze the outcome of those calculations, propose corrections to the design etc. In short: computers make the job easier, but they do not do the job for you.
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  26. - Top - End - #446
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    Also of note is that engineering might involve math, but the whole required skillset is not something we can offload to a computer. Sure, there are a lot of numbers to crunch, but you have to make a lot of decisions and intuitive leaps before there is anything to calculate. Afterwards there is also need for someone to analyze the outcome of those calculations, propose corrections to the design etc. In short: computers make the job easier, but they do not do the job for you.
    I could easily offload all sorts of my job to a computer. Me using a basic understanding of what is happening takes significantly less time than having a computer brute force its way to an optimal solution (assuming that the problem can even be formulated in a way that optimizes nicely).
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
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  27. - Top - End - #447
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Concerning the singularity, if I may be pardoned a link to a non-freefall comic...

    it's not what you think will be amazing in the future that makes the singularity, it's what you simply cannot imagine.

  28. - Top - End - #448
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yeah no. Your link doesnt even say Sam was smarter than her. Just that his methods were working better.
    And you don't think coming up with better methods is a sign of intelligence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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  29. - Top - End - #449
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    I could easily offload all sorts of my job to a computer. Me using a basic understanding of what is happening takes significantly less time than having a computer brute force its way to an optimal solution (assuming that the problem can even be formulated in a way that optimizes nicely).
    Which means exactly that pure number-crunching is not the most important part of the job. How much do you need the computer depends on the particular job you do I guess. There are all sorts of engineering jobs out there.
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