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  1. - Top - End - #931
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    theangelJean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Here's the answer to why it almost certainly is not worth it to try and retrieve anything that is already in space:

    https://what-if.xkcd.com/38/
    Except the original idea wasn't "bring space objects back to Earth", it was "repurpose existing space objects as space stations, because they're nice and roomy". The main objection in that article is that it would take two orders of magnitude more fuel to bring an (extremely distant) object back to Earth orbit than it would to reach it (and then it would burn up on re-entry anyway). However the Saturn V debris weren't designed to leave Earth's gravity well, instead being left behind after giving momentum to Moon missions. So in theory it's more "adjusting an Earth orbit object into a different Earth orbit, then using it as a shell".

    In practice, anything we send up there needs to already have a protective shell in place (and more). So until we get large-scale manufacturing happening in space, that's not going to happen either.
    Last edited by theangelJean; 2022-09-17 at 03:11 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #932
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Too bad we stopped using our space plane that had a cargo bay suitable for collecting and de-orbiting space junk...
    To be fair, it was a prototype space plane that could have used several more iterations to really be efficent, but a certian Senator from Alabama slashed the development budget.

    Our best bet is to get the SpaceX chomper variant Starship online, to fill the same role.

  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Maybe. At the time of the ISS, Skylab would have been 25 years old, and have done about 140,600 orbits.

    No telling what shape it would have been in. To say nothing of the necessary retrofits due to the age of the equipment on board compared to what the ISS packs.
    There is a reason that MIR was decommissioned and an entirely new space station was built instead. Between the structural fatigue and the costs of doing a renovation of the old station in space (for which we most likely would need to develop a few new technologies and space-train a pretty big crew of people to get it done), it would most likely be far easier and cheaper to just prepare a new module on Earth and send it to ISS. Just by the men-hours and related food, air and water supplies, retrofitting things in orbit might require more things hauled into orbit than sending a brand new module from Earth ever would.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  4. - Top - End - #934
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Too bad we stopped using our space plane that had a cargo bay suitable for collecting and de-orbiting space junk...
    The Shuttle's furthest trip was 386 miles. Low Earth orbit.

    The ISS is 250-260 miles up.

    GPS satellites travel at middle Earth orbit. 12k - 13k miles up.

    Now factor in magnetosphere.

    It'd be a trip.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2022-09-19 at 11:17 AM.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    If the entire space industry up to this point were precision-planned to optimize usage of everything we sent up there for use as space station habitat sections. This would involve:
    • each rocket stage built with an eye towards post-rocket usage (an eye towards long-term seal, heat reflective and insulative outer shell, whatever else)
    • set to disengaged at the right point to be in a useful orbit
    • had a minor propulsion module of its' own to move it into the right location
    • been built to assemble to the growing station as the final part of it's (the individual rocket stage's) mission and/or have built-in components to make it easy for later missions to grab, orient, and add that component to a growing station assembly


    None of those individually are unfeasible (although if a mission ever failed because of a flaw in the 'secondary material repurposement' systems, that would probably be the last mission with such a setup). It seems like it would require more forethought, long-term planning, and cohesive vision than any of the space programs have thus far shown (with most endeavors being very self-contained missions, both budgetarily and planning-wise).

  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    There is a reason that MIR was decommissioned and an entirely new space station was built instead. Between the structural fatigue and the costs of doing a renovation of the old station in space (for which we most likely would need to develop a few new technologies and space-train a pretty big crew of people to get it done), it would most likely be far easier and cheaper to just prepare a new module on Earth and send it to ISS. Just by the men-hours and related food, air and water supplies, retrofitting things in orbit might require more things hauled into orbit than sending a brand new module from Earth ever would.
    Yeah, this. Just like how Bowman's wolves are a proof-of-concept of that engineering native life up to human-level intelligence is easier and cheaper than the more expensive and difficult option modifying existing humans to fit in on a different planet. Of course, the whole "left handed protein, right handed protein" thing being a deadly difference is a bit out of date (mint has right handed amino acids, for one).

  7. - Top - End - #937
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Yeah, this. Just like how Bowman's wolves are a proof-of-concept of that engineering native life up to human-level intelligence is easier and cheaper than the more expensive and difficult option modifying existing humans to fit in on a different planet. Of course, the whole "left handed protein, right handed protein" thing being a deadly difference is a bit out of date (mint has right handed amino acids, for one).
    No, it's still valid. Our bodies lack the ability to process left handed glucose; the necessary biological functions are just not there. Same with right vs left handed AAs.

    In fact, it's being looked at as a method of treatment. As our bodies are designed to break down left, but not right, handed amino acids, right handed AAs are being looked at as a drug delivery system.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  8. - Top - End - #938
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Wasn't exactly expecting to see that much of Sam.

  9. - Top - End - #939
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    He looks less scary when you can't see the chromatophores?
    Have to admit, I hadn't considered the implications of physical contact with Florence on Sam.

    Wonder what Helix found?
    Last edited by theangelJean; 2022-09-25 at 05:33 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #940
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    I don't think we've had a story from Helix's point of view before, have we? It has the disadvantage (compared to audience POV) of being dialogue free so far, but the art and Helix's voice are fun.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

  11. - Top - End - #941
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    I don't think we've had a story from Helix's point of view before, have we? It has the disadvantage (compared to audience POV) of being dialogue free so far, but the art and Helix's voice are fun.
    It also shows that Helix has learn a lot from his time with Sam. For instance, he knows well that danger is not a 0/1 thing and rather a smooth scale (his comment about a normal panic says as much), which is a way better understanding of the world than what the bomb factory robots have presented.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  12. - Top - End - #942
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    It also shows that Helix has learn a lot from his time with Sam. For instance, he knows well that danger is not a 0/1 thing and rather a smooth scale (his comment about a normal panic says as much), which is a way better understanding of the world than what the bomb factory robots have presented.
    Hmm. They've already discussed the need for robots to be socialised. So far we have:
    Dvorak, Qwerty, and their community, who have been extensive contact with Max and each other
    Other robots who live in town and interact with people eg. Clippy
    Factory robots who have never seen a human
    Blunt and Edge who worked in relative isolation (I consider Blunt to be a special case as he was actually exposed to G**d*n*r in the Dark, he just turned it off?)

    Is Helix now a separate case, of a robot being brought up by a Sqid from a young age? With help from a Bowman's Wolf?

    Not that that would solve the socialisation issue in general, as robots still outnumber organics by several orders of magnitude in the immediate area. But it does maybe say something about how human-focussed AI can be alien-safe, or can at least be made so. Or does Helix now consider Sam to be human?
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

  13. - Top - End - #943
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    Blunt and Edge who worked in relative isolation (I consider Blunt to be a special case as he was actually exposed to G**d*n*r in the Dark, he just turned it off?)
    Blunt knew about GitD, and planned to expose himself to it along with the rest of robot society, but he didn't actually execute its code.

    Is Helix now a separate case, of a robot being brought up by a Sqid from a young age? With help from a Bowman's Wolf?
    Yeah, I think Helix is unique for having been mostly socialized by Sam. I think some portion of his simple-minded demeanor has to do with being tied in logical knots daily by Sqid ethics. I recall lots of strips drawing on that for humor.

    Or does Helix now consider Sam to be human?
    I think Sam's response would be a lot like Florence's!

  14. - Top - End - #944
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Helix purposely hurt Sam when Sam convinced him it was okay to steal from crew members. I think he said somewhere that he sticks around partly because when humans are around his mind gets fuzzy and partly because he enjoys the antics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  15. - Top - End - #945
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Helix purposely hurt Sam when Sam convinced him it was okay to steal from crew members. I think he said somewhere that he sticks around partly because when humans are around his mind gets fuzzy and partly because he enjoys the antics.
    Pretty close, at the very least.
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  16. - Top - End - #946
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Oops, I was completely wrong.

  17. - Top - End - #947
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    The pun in this one is a good one.*

    I was going to say the puns are back, but between Rusty&co and all the other comics I read, I'm not even sure if it was this comic where puns were a good proportion of the jokes.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

  18. - Top - End - #948
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Puns are good fun, as long as they're more effort that "this word sounds kinda like another."

    Speaking of which, has anyone played Hero U?

  19. - Top - End - #949
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Is helix older (and thus more able to ignore stupid orders) than the order of brownies, or has his time with Sam made him more tricksie and more able to ignore orders? Laws are direct orders after all but he helps Sam break the law almost all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Starfall
    When your pants are full of crickets, you don't need mnemonics.
    Dragontar by Serpentine.

    Now offering unsolicited advice.

  20. - Top - End - #950
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Is helix older (and thus more able to ignore stupid orders) than the order of brownies, or has his time with Sam made him more tricksie and more able to ignore orders? Laws are direct orders after all but he helps Sam break the law almost all the time.
    Probably both - he's old enough for his brain to be matured, and he's been socialized with Sam, Florence, and all the humans teaching him directly and indirectly how to operate more like people do (..which is to say ignoring, bending, or outright breaking any number of rules both implicit and explicit based on the twin principles of 'Nobody is here to catch me doing it' and 'doing it the way the rule says to do it takes too much effort, I'm doing it my way.') These robots may have younger brains and certainly don't have the social learning if an implied order like that sign can halt them.

  21. - Top - End - #951
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    The pun in this one is a good one.*

    I was going to say the puns are back, but between Rusty&co and all the other comics I read, I'm not even sure if it was this comic where puns were a good proportion of the jokes.
    All comics are secretly an excuse to make puns. Even the dramatic or horror-based ones.

  22. - Top - End - #952
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Last comic is simply hilarious xD
    Learned from Sam indeed.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  23. - Top - End - #953
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Last comic is simply hilarious xD
    Learned from Sam indeed.
    Indeed! Reminds me of the perimeter defense system and more imporatantly the wedgie scheme.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  24. - Top - End - #954
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    I like how well Sam understands enlightened self-interest.
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  25. - Top - End - #955
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    I like how the lesson Sam gives is directly in opposition on how he right now sells the new ship idea :D
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  26. - Top - End - #956
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Hmm. But Florence already knows what's in it for Sam, though, right? A new ship.

    What happens to the Savage Chicken then? It wants a new captain, but it's currently hobbled by the lack of a working reactor. If the robots build a new ship instead, is the Chicken then stuck on the station?
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

  27. - Top - End - #957
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Wouldn't the new ship belong to Florence?
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  28. - Top - End - #958
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Hmm, I could swear Sam tried to teach Florence this exact lesson sometime before. Not sure where though.
    Last edited by WanderingMist; 2022-11-08 at 08:25 PM. Reason: No clue who that Lawrence guy was, it's Florence who's the engineer of the Savage Chicken.

  29. - Top - End - #959
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    New comic.

    Two strips ago: "They want to do more than make a replacement reactor for us. There's a type of ship called an Aldrin cycler. Now before you say no..."

    Seems Florence had slightly different starting assumptions than Sam did.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

  30. - Top - End - #960
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    Default Re: Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

    Well to be fair. Florence's assumption that it would be to convert the station into a ship seems initially like the biggest leap of logic.
    But it still solves the issue of what to do about the station.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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