Freefall 3: Death Ray Byproducts

[WanderingMist]

I saw that typo, Peterson, in the original version of the strip! You can't fool me!

[Rockphed]

I saw that typo, Peterson, in the original version of the strip! You can't fool me!

I didn't see it, though I am unsure if that is because the author fixed it before I read the strip or if I just missed it.

[Jasdoif]

I didn't see it, though I am unsure if that is because the author fixed it before I read the strip or if I just missed it.

"Conversion" still could've worked, though "conversation" doesn't need any extra work.

[theangelJean]

So Sam has two plans ...

Is the station going to be his "robots learn how and when not to rescue humans" amusement park, as well as an Aldrin cycler?

[Rakaydos]

So Sam has two plans ...

Is the station going to be his "robots learn how and when not to rescue humans" amusement park, as well as an Aldrin cycler?

It's an underdiscussed part of the Cycler concept, IMO. You have a captive audience for the duration of the transfer, so a Cycler will resemble a cruise liner/tourist trap.

And what is a tourist trap for Robots?

[sihnfahl]

It's an underdiscussed part of the Cycler concept, IMO. You have a captive audience for the duration of the transfer, so a Cycler will resemble a cruise liner/tourist trap. And what is a tourist trap for Robots?

Why, one where they aren't doing their 'job', but are serving humans by doing such things as cooking, cleaning, housekeeping, etc?

[Willie the Duck]

<snorts awake>
Hmm. Cheaper? What! Wait, what're we talking about?

It's been a while since we (the forum) visited the actual cycler project from a technical perspective (rather than as a goal to socially engineer the station to agree with). Last I checked, the reason to transit things via a cycler is because it is cost-effective (in terms of fuel). Am I forgetting something?

[theangelJean]

Yeah, I don't know where deMorel is coming from here ... although I also wonder if his idea of "cheaper" is completely warped.

Edit: Actually, maybe it's the difference between a bulk carrier and a cycler that comes in to play here.

A cycler is designed to remain in orbit so it uses less fuel getting from point A to point B, yes. But I get the feeling that part of the idea is that it's (hu)manned - it's a space station whose primary function is to carry people between A and B. As such it needs all the functions of space station maintenance - air, water, food, waste disposal etc. for the whole station. So it would be constantly "refuelling" at points A and B, not with fuel, but with other necessities. And in a system like this, all those things are expensive - probably more expensive than fuel.

A bulk carrier needs enough air/water/food for the cockpit only, and enough air to pressurise parts of the rest of the carrier in case of emergency inspections that can't be fixed in an EVA suit. We're not talking the Enterprise here, more like a carrier jet. And unlike a carrier jet, you're not working against gravity the entire time, and your crew are not the primary concern so they're probably habituated to freefall. So you don't have to accelerate to a midpoint and decelerate the rest of the way, like the Savage Chicken did just now - that would be for small/passenger ships, where you are trying to minimise transit time. Instead, you just need enough fuel to accelerate to your chosen path and decelerate at the other end. Plus you can get at least part of that from magnetic scoops, and in a system like this, hydrogen is cheap.

Edit edit: Also, I suspect deMorel is thinking of "robots who want to terraform a moon around the gas giant" as cargo, rather than as passengers. In interstellar trips this is apparently the same thing in the Freefall universe, as you put passengers in cold sleep. In-system, I suspect robots would willingly pay to be passengers.

[sihnfahl]

We're not talking the Enterprise here, more like a carrier jet.

More like a superfreighter, where the majority of the ship is nothing but cargo space, I guess?

Instead, you just need enough fuel to accelerate to your chosen path and decelerate at the other end. Plus you can get at least part of that from magnetic scoops, and in a system like this, hydrogen is cheap.

If time wasn't an issue, you could even use gravity assists. In which case, you might not even need a ship at all. I recall some sci-fi where various parts of the solar system are mined, and the materials are lobbed via magnetic rail towards a 'catch facility' that lagged the earth before final transit (cause nobody wanted to risk the results of a malfunction if they were lobbed towards earth directly...)

[DavidSh]

The fuel needed to match velocities with the cycler isn't much different from the fuel needed to reach your destination directly, but there could be a lot more amenities on the cycler. It's sort of like the difference between travelling on one of the massive roll-on roll-off ferries with cabins and lounges and everything, and travelling on a container ship.

(The other day I was watching a Youtube video about a trip on the ferry from Denmark to Iceland, via the Faroe Islands.)

[Rockphed]

The fuel needed to match velocities with the cycler isn't much different from the fuel needed to reach your destination directly, but there could be a lot more amenities on the cycler. It's sort of like the difference between travelling on one of the massive roll-on roll-off ferries with cabins and lounges and everything, and travelling on a container ship.

(The other day I was watching a Youtube video about a trip on the ferry from Denmark to Iceland, via the Faroe Islands.)

Or, to use a more complete example, like the difference between taking a speedboat from Iceland to Denmark and taking a cruise ship between same.

[sihnfahl]

The fuel needed to match velocities with the cycler isn't much different from the fuel needed to reach your destination directly, but there could be a lot more amenities on the cycler.

Not to mention higher gravity. (They had issues transferring from the Savage Chicken to the station.) And they have better shielding against cosmic radiation.

So going from a cycler to planetside, and vice-versa, would be easier on folks. And a touch safer.

[tyckspoon]

Not to mention higher gravity. (They had issues transferring from the Savage Chicken to the station.) And they have better shielding against cosmic radiation.

So going from a cycler to planetside, and vice-versa, would be easier on folks. And a touch safer.

The shuttles to the cycler-station at the pickup points would also potentially be cheaper, as they would not need to be rated for deep space travel like the Savage Chicken had to achieve (fully redundant powerplants, presumably an excess supply of food/air/water, medical supplies, etc in case something happens in transit and they have to shelter for potentially months until aid can get to them) because they would never be going all that far away from a support base.

[sihnfahl]

The shuttles to the cycler-station at the pickup points would also potentially be cheaper, as they would not need to be rated for deep space travel like the Savage Chicken had to achieve (fully redundant powerplants, presumably an excess supply of food/air/water, medical supplies, etc in case something happens in transit and they have to shelter for potentially months until aid can get to them) because they would never be going all that far away from a support base.

All that stuff adds weight to the ship, and reduce space, that could be otherwise used for cargo as well.

Edit: Okay, new page... yep, expected that! They like working. They REALLY like working with humans. And as an Aldrin Cycler, they're a mobile repair station to boot.

[theangelJean]

New comic (3959, will update with htm page once it becomes available)

Spoiler: 3959

Show

So de Morel caught on to Sam's wordplay regarding his share, but thinks it won't hold up in court. Or "thought"? I wonder he's worried about now?

I had to read Sam's deal a few times and have it explained by the forums before getting it myself - de Morel is at least a fast thinker.

[DavidSh]

New comic (3959, will update with htm page once it becomes available)

Spoiler: 3959

Show

So de Morel caught on to Sam's wordplay regarding his share, but thinks it won't hold up in court. Or "thought"? I wonder he's worried about now?

I had to read Sam's deal a few times and have it explained by the forums before getting it myself - de Morel is at least a fast thinker.

Spoiler: I guess it's still kind of early

Show

If Sam really saves the station from becoming a worthless piece of junk 17% is a fair price to pay. That should include liability for 17% of any debt incurred to convert from failing station to a cycler.

[Fyraltari]

New comic (3959, will update with htm page once it becomes available)

Spoiler: 3959

Show

So de Morel caught on to Sam's wordplay regarding his share, but thinks it won't hold up in court. Or "thought"? I wonder he's worried about now?

I had to read Sam's deal a few times and have it explained by the forums before getting it myself - de Morel is at least a fast thinker.

I forgot, what's the trick, again?

[Radar]

I forgot, what's the trick, again?

The exact wording of their agreement is that Sam gets 17% of what he saves (read this and the next strip). He just saved the whole station, so...

[sihnfahl]

The exact wording of their agreement is that Sam gets 17% of what he saves (read this and the next strip). He just saved the whole station, so...

Which calls back to the original problem. De Morel was just thinking saving money would save the station. So, to him, 'what Sam saved' would be money.

If I remember contract law, there's a disconnect between the two parties involved. Morel was thinking money, Sam was thinking 'anything and everything'. So there might be a review by an arbitration judge as to what Sam is actually owed. A 17% stake in the station's net (not gross) income might be in the cards.

[WanderingMist]

Which calls back to the original problem. De Morel was just thinking saving money would save the station. So, to him, 'what Sam saved' would be money.

If I remember contract law, there's a disconnect between the two parties involved. Morel was thinking money, Sam was thinking 'anything and everything'. So there might be a review by an arbitration judge as to what Sam is actually owed. A 17% stake in the station's net (not gross) income might be in the cards.

Sam isn't going to pay taxes either way, so may as well give him 17% of the gross so he doesn't do something worse.

[theangelJean]

I guess that wraps up Sam's side of the plot for now. Back to Gregor and Tess, it seems.
I am a bit surprised they're going back to moral objections, but I guess that's why Gregor was introduced in the first place.

[Rockphed]

I guess that wraps up Sam's side of the plot for now. Back to Gregor and Tess, it seems.
I am a bit surprised they're going back to moral objections, but I guess that's why Gregor was introduced in the first place.

I'm not sure Gregor has moral objections to Florence and Winston having a relationship, but to them having a physical relationship before marriage. Then again, Winston has admitted that sometimes Florence twigs his "that's a dog" reaction in his brain.

[Radar]

I am not sure if he has objections to them being physical before marriage at all. Up to this point he was actually not only respectful but very thoughtful and open to new ideas frankly - his key worries (not even objections) were very logical and were about the power imbalance in the relationship due to the in-built safeguards. I have no clue what specifically he wants to discuss with Florence but it might be something different than what is allowed before and after marriage.

[theangelJean]

I'm not sure Gregor has moral objections to Florence and Winston having a relationship, but to them having a physical relationship before marriage. Then again, Winston has admitted that sometimes Florence twigs his "that's a dog" reaction in his brain.

I am not sure if he has objections to them being physical before marriage at all. Up to this point he was actually not only respectful but very thoughtful and open to new ideas frankly - his key worries (not even objections) were very logical and were about the power imbalance in the relationship due to the in-built safeguards. I have no clue what specifically he wants to discuss with Florence but it might be something different than what is allowed before and after marriage.

To be honest I am not clear on what Gregor has moral objections to. It might be "wasting precious water by taking too long a shower" for all I know. However his characterisation of that event as "morally neutral" after his wife pointed out the positives of cleanliness tells me he is objecting to something on moral grounds. And given that the rest of the comic has been about logistics, practicality, selfishness, society and other specifics, the swerve to something as blurry as "morality" seemed to come out of left field for me. I had to remind myself that the author signposted their plans for this direction when they introduced this character.

[WanderingMist]

I guess that wraps up Sam's side of the plot for now. Back to Gregor and Tess, it seems.
I am a bit surprised they're going back to moral objections, but I guess that's why Gregor was introduced in the first place.

Gregor is former Techno-Amish, so this probably isn't a moral issue in a strict sense. But although he may no longer live by their rules, he still grew up with them, so they'd have had a big influence on his basic mindset.

[theangelJean]

Hmm, it does seem he's taking a more technological/ethical line of questioning. But he's still treating her more like a piece of technology than a person - the ethics he is concerned about are the effect she might have on his son.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Hmm, it does seem he's taking a more technological/ethical line of questioning. But he's still treating her more like a piece of technology than a person - the ethics he is concerned about are the effect she might have on his son.

Be fair - "the effect she might have on his son" is the same concern he would have about a random human girl (and since I have a daughter, the same discussion would be based on "the effect you would have on my daughter").

[theangelJean]

Be fair - "the effect she might have on his son" is the same concern he would have about a random human girl (and since I have a daughter, the same discussion would be based on "the effect you would have on my daughter").

Took me a while to figure out the distinction I was trying to make. To me, his line of questioning seems more about whether third parties can influence the relationship - corporate, hackers etc. Rather than looking at her as a free-willed agent, he's looking for the edge cases where she might not be. So it's not really "the effect she might have on his son" as I said before, it's "the effect others might have on his son through her".

[Manga Shoggoth]

Took me a while to figure out the distinction I was trying to make. To me, his line of questioning seems more about whether third parties can influence the relationship - corporate, hackers etc. Rather than looking at her as a free-willed agent, he's looking for the edge cases where she might not be. So it's not really "the effect she might have on his son" as I said before, it's "the effect others might have on his son through her".

Fair enough. Having Florence (at least partially) beholden to a Megacorp is a little more worrying than the effect that the girlfriend's family might have. Especially if that family effectively includes Sam...

[theangelJean]

Okay, the comic keeps going to places I wouldn't expect.

I mean, lots of people have strong opinions about a certain board-unfriendly topic, but I've kind of got used to not seeing them in hard sci-fi? Especially not if you're going to put talking points in the mouth of characters and, it looks like, start a discussion.

I don't normally get a "this could come out horribly wrong" sense from this author. He's managed to explore some very interesting ideas, while relating them to the everyday experience of some frankly odd characters in a humorous way. But the emergence of this particular topic automatically makes me think "does he have an agenda here that I'm not seeing?" Which I guess is the very reason it's forbidden on this particular board.