Another Way to Wish for More Wishes

[Tohron]

There are a number of known ways to Wish for more wishes (chain-gating Solars, Candle of Invocation -> Efreeti or Noble Djinn), but they're somewhat dependent on getting Outsiders to cooperate. However, there's another method for unlimited Wishes, which requires no cooperation from others. The main drawback is that the initial Wish requires about 5K more XP than a regular wish (so about 10K total), which I think means some of the normal Wish-granting methods wouldn't work to get it started?

Spoiler: Original Method

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Anyway, the initial Wish goes into creating a 1/day command-word activated Ring of Wish, covering XP costs of up to 5400 XP. This has a market value of (1800 * 9 * 17 + 50 * 5 * 5400) / 5 = 325,080 gp (it is still considered pre-epic since the material & XP component factor isn't considered in determining if the item is epic). The XP cost of creating such an item would be 13,003 XP, so the cost of a Wish for it would be 13,003 * 2 + 5,000 = 31,006 XP.

Afterward, that day's wish could go to improving the item by increasing how much XP cost it covers. 400 spare XP means it can cover a value increase that would cost 200 XP, which would boost the threshold by 200 / (50 * 5 / (5 * 25)) = 100 XP to 5,500. The following day could boost it by 125 XP to 5,625, then next by 156 XP, and so on.

The goal is being able to create an unlimited-use command-word activated Ring of Wish. This is an epic item, but since it doesn't give bonuses beyond what a pre-epic item can, the market price for such an item with a 6000 XP threshold uses the pre-epic formula: 1800 * 9 * 17 + 100 * 5 * 6000 = 3,275,400 gp. The XP cost for an epic item is 1% the gp cost plus 10,000 XP, which is 42,754 XP. The initial ring will thus need to cover 85,508 spare XP, which will take 24 days of using the initial ring to boost itself.

Improved Method
You start by Wishing for a single-use, use-activated ring of Wish that covers XP costs up to 10,000. This has a market value of 50 * 9 * 17 + 5 * 10,000 = 57,650 gp. It thus has a craft XP cost of 2,306 XP, and a Wish to create it would have a total XP cost of 5000 + (2 * 2306) = 9,612 XP. A (single-use) ring of Wish covering 10,845 XP has a craft XP cost of 2,500 XP, and a Wish for it would require 5000 + (2 * 2500 = 10,000 XP, so you can use the first ring to Wish for the second ring. The second ring can then be used to Wish for a Wish ring covering 13,082 XP, then one covering 18,675 XP, then 32,657 XP, then 67,612 XP, then 155,000 XP, and so on.

The goal is being able to create an unlimited-use command-word activated Ring of Wish. This is an epic item, but since it doesn't give bonuses beyond what a pre-epic item can, the market price for such an item with a 10,000 XP threshold uses the pre-epic formula: 1800 * 9 * 17 + 100 * 5 * 10000 = 5,275,400 gp. The craft XP cost for an epic item is 1% the gp cost plus 10,000 XP, which is 62,754 XP. To create it, one would thus need a single-use ring covering XP costs of at least 125,508 XP, which would require using a succession of 7 rings starting from the first.

The Wishes from the unlimited-use ring can then be used to repeatedly upgrade that ring so it can handle XP costs of more that 10,000. Before long, you can wish for more such rings, along with any other arbitrary items you want. No friendly Solars needed!

[Darg]

You can't spend more xp at a time than would make you lose a level. Your item is impossible to make until epic levels and with epic spellcasting who needs wishes anymore?

[Zanos]

You can't spend more xp at a time than would make you lose a level. Your item is impossible to make until epic levels and with epic spellcasting who needs wishes anymore?

You can explicitly not level up in order to spend XP on a spell or magic item creation.

[Tohron]

You can't spend more xp at a time than would make you lose a level. Your item is impossible to make until epic levels and with epic spellcasting who needs wishes anymore?

Isn't it 153K XP to get from 17 to 18? If you're just directly casting Wish, at that point you could just skip the initial steps and Wish for the unlimited-use Wish item.

[Zancloufer]

Isn't it 153K XP to get from 17 to 18? If you're just directly casting Wish, at that point you could just skip the initial steps and Wish for the unlimited-use Wish item.

No, you need 153k XP total to be level 18. Since you "only" need 136k XP to be level 17, it's only 17k EXP to go from 17 to 18. I did make that mistake once, but the XP column is total XP, not XP for that level.

TLDR: EXP needed for next level is ECL*1000. I mean in theory if your DM doesn't use Epic levels you could just bank EXP after level 20, but in practice you would need to be level 30 something in order to burn 30k+ XP at once.

[Chronos]

You're assuming that a 1/day command word item of Wish is something that exists at all, and that it costs what you say it does. There's a reason that the magic item rules are in the DMG, not the PHB: Custom magic items don't exist unless the DM says that they do, and even if they do exist, there are no rules for their cost, only guidelines, because it's the DM making the decision.

At this point, you might as well just say "Ask your DM for unlimited wishes".

[Darg]

You can explicitly not level up in order to spend XP on a spell or magic item creation.

Where do the rules say you can explicitly hold off leveling to craft? The PHB claims "When a character earns enough XP, he or she attains a new character level." The DMG says you can hold off on xp rewards until the end of session if you want. So unless rules explicitly say you can hold off leveling as much as you want to pool xp beyond what your level allows, then the PHB takes priority.

[Zancloufer]

So while the DMG rules are indeed technically guidelines, by RAW they are the only rules we have so using them for theory crafting is fine. Do remember Rule 0 lets a DM kibosh (almost) anything, so trying to get free wishes is already playing with fire.

On the actual RAW interpretation here, I think you made multiple mistakes. First, the base cost is 17[Caster Level]*9[Spell Level]*1,800 = 275,400 GP for a command word of wish. Since it's 1/day you divide by 5 to get a 55,080 GP market price. You then pay 1/25th the base price in EXP, which is 2,204. However since we are replicating a Wish spell you have to pay the base 5K exp cost, so the final EXP cost is 7,204. When making a Magic item Wish's EXP cost is the EXP cost of the item *2 + 5k, giving us 14,408+5,000 = 19,408 XP as the final cost of casting the Wish spell.

This is actually doable Pre-Epic, as not only is the Market cost only 91.1k, but the EXP cost is under 20k, which is within the ability of a 20th level character to make without loosing a level. Since x/day magic items have a linear cost one could replicate this up to 2 times on the same item to get a 2/day item of wish for the low cost of ~38.8k EXP.

Not sure how long it would take to get ~39k XP to burn, but it's there. Probably would also get you a DMG to the face, or at the very least hoards of powerful NPCs/Monsters after you, but by RAW it's doable.

[Darg]

So while the DMG rules are indeed technically guidelines, by RAW they are the only rules we have so using them for theory crafting is fine. Do remember Rule 0 lets a DM kibosh (almost) anything, so trying to get free wishes is already playing with fire.

On the actual RAW interpretation here, I think you made multiple mistakes. First, the base cost is 17[Caster Level]*9[Spell Level]*1,800 = 275,400 GP for a command word of wish. Since it's 1/day you divide by 5 to get a 55,080 GP market price. You then pay 1/25th the base price in EXP, which is 2,204. However since we are replicating a Wish spell you have to pay the base 5K exp cost, so the final EXP cost is 7,204. When making a Magic item Wish's EXP cost is the EXP cost of the item *2 + 5k, giving us 14,408+5,000 = 19,408 XP as the final cost of casting the Wish spell.

This is actually doable Pre-Epic, as not only is the Market cost only 91.1k, but the EXP cost is under 20k, which is within the ability of a 20th level character to make without loosing a level. Since x/day magic items have a linear cost one could replicate this up to 2 times on the same item to get a 2/day item of wish for the low cost of ~38.8k EXP.

Not sure how long it would take to get ~39k XP to burn, but it's there. Probably would also get you a DMG to the face, or at the very least hoards of powerful NPCs/Monsters after you, but by RAW it's doable.

Crafting custom items with wish is always variable in cost dependent on material and xp costs of the type of wish you want to make. Basically, you're limited by the amount of xp you put into the creation of the item.

[Chronos]

Quoth Zancloufer:

So while the DMG rules are indeed technically guidelines, by RAW they are the only rules we have so using them for theory crafting is fine.

No, the rule we have is that a Ring of 1/Day Wish doesn't exist at all and can't be made, because it's not in any of the magic item lists in any of the books. It's not the DM using Rule 0 to declare that it doesn't exist, because it not existing is the default. If it does exist, it's only because the DM used Rule 0 to create it.

[Zanos]

Where do the rules say you can explicitly hold off leveling to craft? The PHB claims "When a character earns enough XP, he or she attains a new character level." The DMG says you can hold off on xp rewards until the end of session if you want. So unless rules explicitly say you can hold off leveling as much as you want to pool xp beyond what your level allows, then the PHB takes priority.

The PHB also, in the general rules for spellcasting under XP components and the rules for crafting items.

[Darg]

The PHB also, in the general rules for spellcasting under XP components and the rules for crafting items.

The PHB says you can use xp that you would have leveled with to cast a spell instead. No mention of indefinitely holding onto that xp or crafting with it. I must admit that I can't find where you think the item crafting rules say you can hold onto xp instead of leveling.

[Crake]

Sorry, but your price is way off.

They key factor you misread was the division by 5 for making it 1/day. This division only applies to the base market value of the item, which is 1,800xCL17xSL9.

The 100x XP cost is an "extra cost", it is not part of the base market value of the item, and thus is is not subject to the division by 5, however you DO get the reduction by half for giving the item a daily limit, so it is instead 50x XP cost. That's still a massive number though, when multiplied by 5000, a 250,000 xp cost ontop of the base value of the item.

Yeah, I don't expect you'll be achieving that any time soon.

Note that these extra costs also are not covered by most cost reduction methods as they all refer to base market value.

[Tohron]

Just realized that if you start with a Wish scroll covering XP costs of around 9,000, you can use it to Wish for a Wish scroll covering a larger XP cost than the previous scroll. I updated the OP with the new math. Seems delaying level-ups would no longer be necessary for a Wizard starting this at level 17 (especially if they opted to spend 4 days crafting the initial scroll for 46,270 gp and 1,953 XP, rather than Wishing for it).

[Darg]

Just realized that if you start with a Wish scroll covering XP costs of around 9,000, you can use it to Wish for a Wish scroll covering a larger XP cost than the previous scroll. I updated the OP with the new math. Seems delaying level-ups would no longer be necessary for a Wizard starting this at level 17 (especially if they opted to spend 4 days crafting the initial scroll for 46,270 gp and 1,953 XP, rather than Wishing for it).

That wouldn't work. Wish has you pay double the XP cost of the item + 5000. Wishing for the scroll of wish in the scroll table for 28,825 gp would require a scroll that costs 78,825 because the creator would need to put in 15,000 XP rather than the 5000 the given scroll would cost.

[Tohron]

That wouldn't work. Wish has you pay double the XP cost of the item + 5000. Wishing for the scroll of wish in the scroll table for 28,825 gp would require a scroll that costs 78,825 because the creator would need to put in 15,000 XP rather than the 5000 the given scroll would cost.

Ah, you're right, didn't factor in how scroll crafting specifically says you pay the full XP cost when you craft a scroll rather than increasing the material cost as a substitute. I think I can still get a better start by making it a single-use use-activated item, but I'll need to adjust the tables...

EDIT: OP updated. This should still be well-within reach of a 17th level wizard, or anyone else who has access to a 10K XP Wish.

[Zanos]

The PHB says you can use xp that you would have leveled with to cast a spell instead. No mention of indefinitely holding onto that xp or crafting with it. I must admit that I can't find where you think the item crafting rules say you can hold onto xp instead of leveling.

It doesn't impose a time limit on holding the XP either, or establish a timeframe for when you have to spend the XP.

The rules for spending XP on magic items are on Pg. 88, and do state that the XP must be spent immediately, but that isn't as material to OP's question. Of course you can avoid any of these discussions by just crafting a scroll of wish with however much XP you need instead of gaining XP over the course of your level 17/18 adventures.

[Cruiser1]

That wouldn't work. Wish has you pay double the XP cost of the item + 5000. Wishing for the scroll of wish in the scroll table for 28,825 gp would require a scroll that costs 78,825 because the creator would need to put in 15,000 XP rather than the 5000 the given scroll would cost.

An improved technique for infinite wishes that doesn't require a custom magic item of Wish is to use Wish scrolls instead, from the beginning. The scrolls have Twin and Repeat metamagic applied to effectively get 4 wishes for the cost of 1, which makes it easy to wish for scrolls of Wish and build up the XP in them, in spite of the double XP costs to create or improve a magic item. See this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...nfinite-Wishes

[Darg]

It doesn't impose a time limit on holding the XP either, or establish a timeframe for when you have to spend the XP.

However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level.

However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

It's pretty obvious to me that those rules are referring to the odd and rare situations where you just got XP but would rather spend it than level up. Neither imply that you can just hold on to the XP indefinitely, but rather that you spend it pretty much immediately.

[Tohron]

An improved technique for infinite wishes that doesn't require a custom magic item of Wish is to use Wish scrolls instead, from the beginning. The scrolls have Twin and Repeat metamagic applied to effectively get 4 wishes for the cost of 1, which makes it easy to wish for scrolls of Wish and build up the XP in them, in spite of the double XP costs to create or improve a magic item. See this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...nfinite-Wishes

Interesting option, although your method requires 40K XP for a 17th level caster to get the initial scroll (and that's if you can have a Twin Repeat Wish scroll at CL 17 rather than CL 31 minimum), whereas my approach can get started with a 10K XP Wish. My current starting item is even pretty similar to the existing Ring of 3 Wishes item (although how it's used is, obviously, very different to the intended use of that ring). Also interesting to learn more about the XP banking options, even if my improved method no longer needs it

[Crake]

An improved technique for infinite wishes that doesn't require a custom magic item of Wish is to use Wish scrolls instead, from the beginning. The scrolls have Twin and Repeat metamagic applied to effectively get 4 wishes for the cost of 1, which makes it easy to wish for scrolls of Wish and build up the XP in them, in spite of the double XP costs to create or improve a magic item. See this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...nfinite-Wishes

Except a scroll of wish with any metamagic greater than +0 is now an epic item

[Morphic tide]

Sorry, but your price is way off.

They key factor you misread was the division by 5 for making it 1/day. This division only applies to the base market value of the item, which is 1,800xCL17xSL9.

The 100x XP cost is an "extra cost", it is not part of the base market value of the item, and thus is is not subject to the division by 5, however you DO get the reduction by half for giving the item a daily limit, so it is instead 50x XP cost. That's still a massive number though, when multiplied by 5000, a 250,000 xp cost ontop of the base value of the item.

Yeah, I don't expect you'll be achieving that any time soon.

Note that these extra costs also are not covered by most cost reduction methods as they all refer to base market value.

Firstly, the Cost entry of an item does not distinguish between the "extra" and base, as seen in the exemplifying Ring of Three Wishes and Wand of Stoneskin. Secondly, crafting reductions are typically to the Cost entry the XP is part of, not the market price the "extra cost" is exclusive to. Thirdly, your reading results in "limited charges per day" of several hundred Wishes being cheaper than an at-will item despite theoretically increasing the base by dozens of times over.

There is no 100x XP "extra cost", and daily charges do not halve it. What you are referring to is is that the base Cost entry of an at-will item is treated as if it were 100 or 50 charges the way the Ring of Three Wishes has three charges of Wish at 5,000 XP each, then for each XP so added you add 5 GP to final Market Price. As this is one "Cost" entry, it can be absolutely flattened for monstrous leverage on an initial crafted scroll.

The deepest cheese is recognizing that Bloodlines failing to increase character level means you can frontload all three for 3,000 XP to increase Unbound Scroll by three levels followed by Legacy Champion to have 100% cost reduction on scrolls, making it solely a matter of time... Which the Quill of Scribing turns into a joke.

[Crake]

Firstly, the Cost entry of an item does not distinguish between the "extra" and base, as seen in the exemplifying Ring of Three Wishes

Ironic that you should use that example:

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. For example, a ring of three wishes has a market price of 97,950 gp, which includes 75,000 gp for the extra 15,000 XP that the creator must expend to forge the ring. The ring’s base price is only 22,950 gp (the market price minus the extra cost for the XP expenditure).

So yes, the guidelines very much do distinguish between base cost and extra cost.

Secondly, crafting reductions are typically to the Cost entry

Actually, the ones in the DMG all referr specifically to base cost as you can see in the table header "Base Price Adjustment". Since the cost of xp and material components are not a part of the base cost, they are an extra cost, again as noted in the heading for their part of the table "Extra Cost", they are not affected by this Base Price Adjustment. This is also apparent in other cost reduction methods, such as the Extraordinary Artisan feat, which again refers to Base Price, and not market value, which is the combined cost of the Base Price and Extra Costs.

Thirdly, your reading results in "limited charges per day" of several hundred Wishes being cheaper than an at-will item despite theoretically increasing the base by dozens of times over.

Firstly, it's not "my reading", it's the reading you get when you actually read the rules. Secondly, it's pretty well documented that having use activated or command word items with 5 or more daily uses breaks the guidelines, as the guidelines assume that 5/day and at-will are practically the same. Creating an item with 10 uses/day actually results in double the base price of an at-will item, so yes, this is a problem with creating items with more than 5+ daily uses, and at that point it should just be treated as an at-will item. So yes, while creating an item with hundreds of uses per day wish would reduce the Extra Cost of said item, it would multiply the Base Price by a huge margin as well.

This is why they are item creation guidelines, and why items with daily uses of 5 or more don't exist.

There is no 100x XP "extra cost", and daily charges do not halve it. What you are referring to is is that the base Cost entry of an at-will item is treated as if it were 100 or 50 charges the way the Ring of Three Wishes has three charges of Wish at 5,000 XP each, then for each XP so added you add 5 GP to final Market Price.

DMG Page 285, subheading 5, when referring to the Extra Cost of items that have spells with a material or xp cost:

If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges

Note it does not say anything about adjusting the base price, this is purely a reference to the Extra Cost, as noted by the fact that subheading 5 is only applied to material and xp costs, which themselves are under the Extra Cost heading.

As this is one "Cost" entry, it can be absolutely flattened for monstrous leverage on an initial crafted scroll.

I hope I have amply demonstrated the distinction very clearly made by the rules between Base Price, Extra Costs, and total market value that you no longer believe this statement to be true.



So, to summarise, here is the breakdown of a 1/day ring of wishing:

Base Price: Continuous Item (SL9 x CL17 x 1800gp) = 275,400gp

Base Price Adjustment: Charges Per day: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) 275,400/(5/1) = 275,400 / 5 = 55,080gp

Extra Cost: Spell has XP Cost (5000xp) (Item has daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges) 5000xp * 50 = 250,000xp

Cost to create: Base Price/2 (55,080/2) = 27,540gp plus Base Price/25 in xp (2203.2 xp), plus extra cost of 250,000xp
Result: 27,540gp plus 252,203.2 xp

Market Price: 27,540gp plus 5gp x 252,203.2 xp
Total Market Price: 1,288,556gp

Meanwhile, the same breakdown for an at-will ring of wishing:

Base Price: Continuous Item (SL9 x CL17 x 1800gp) = 275,400gp

Base Price Adjustment: (none)

Extra Cost: Spell has XP Cost (5000xp) (Item is unlimited, determine as if it had 100 charges) 5000xp * 100 = 500,000xp

Cost to create: Base Price/2 (275,400/2) = 137,700gp plus Base Price/25 in xp (11016 xp), plus extra cost of 500,000xp
Result: 137,700gp plus 511,016 xp

Market Price: 275,400gp plus 5gp x 511,016 xp
Total Market Price: 2,830,480gp

Note that it does not incur a x10 multiplier for being an epic item, as it does not provide a bonus above the standard, however the 511,016xp cost to create would likely be your prohibiting factor, as that would be enough xp to probably level up at least 10-20 times depending on your level, so good luck accumulating that amount of xp without some sort of macguffinry

[loky1109]

(especially if they opted to spend 4 days crafting the initial scroll for 46,270 gp and 1,953 XP, rather than Wishing for it).

Iirc, you need to cast spell once every day while you craft scroll. So you need to cast 5 Wishes. It's 25000 xp for nothing. And it isn't part of price, so it isn't subject for any redactions.

[Crake]

Iirc, you need to cast spell once every day while you craft scroll. So you need to cast 5 Wishes. It's 25000 xp for nothing. And it isn't part of price, so it isn't subject for any redactions.

No, you just need to expend the spell slot, you don't have to actually cast the spell and spend the component costs, those are already included in the extra costs of crafting.

[Crake]

Improved Method
You start by Wishing for a single-use, use-activated ring of Wish that covers XP costs up to 10,000. This has a market value of 50 * 9 * 17 + 5 * 10,000 = 57,650 gp. It thus has a craft XP cost of 2,306 XP, and a Wish to create it would have a total XP cost of 5000 + (2 * 2306) = 9,612 XP.

The xp cost of your item is not 57,650/25

It is (50*9*17)/2 = 306xp plus 10,000 for the xp component of the wish spell covering 10,000 xp.

The 1/25th xp cost is applied to the base price of the item. The xp cost is an extra cost and is paid in full.

Because of this, a single use wish item can never provide enough xp to create a better single use wish item, as the 10,000 xp cost of the wish item is doubled by the clause of the wish spell, so a 10,000 xp wish item would cost 25,612xp to create, and it itself could not even create a minimum xp wish item

Funnily enough, the wish spell says nothing about the gp cost of said item, so you could for example, make an at will item of forcecage (7x13x1800, xp cost 6552, but has a 150,000gp material component cost) for a mere 18,104 xp. Pretty good deal for an item worth 313,800gp. This technically applies to fabricate too, and you could make an item of fabricate that has a nigh infinite material component associated with it and be able to craft literally anything mundane at a moments notice. Of course, this is why the item creation guidelines are just that, guidelines, and not hard and fast rules

Honestly, this thread has convinced me that many of you learned the xp crafting guidelines by word of mouth rather than actually reading the DMG word for word. Please, pick up a copy and give it a read, the whole DMG is filled with useful insight thats not on the srd




The real way to get free unlimited (but timegated) wishes is to create a bed of restoration (38,000gp market cost) after hitting level 18. Then cast energy drain on yourself and wait 24 hours. If you drain more than one level, lay in the bed to be restored to level 18 and start again. If you succeed on all your saves, willingly fail the last one to become level 17, halfway to 18. This gives you 8,500 xp to spend. Spend it on a wish. THEN get in the bed of restoration and return to level 18 to start again.

Liable to get books thrown at you however, so ymmv

[Tohron]

The xp cost of your item is not 57,650/25

It is (50*9*17)/2 = 306xp plus 10,000 for the xp component of the wish spell covering 10,000 xp.

The 1/25th xp cost is applied to the base price of the item. The xp cost is an extra cost and is paid in full.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem...oldPieceValues
defines, under "Spell has XP cost" to "Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge". Scrolls are a specific exception to this, but single-use, use-activated items are not. Admittedly, the Ring of Three Wishes does list crafting requirements in the way you describe, but the rules for creating items also specifically list that ring under the header saying it should add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge. So, in short, the rules seem to contradict themselves regarding the Ring of Three Wishes in particular, but the general rule still seems to be spell XP costs being converted into an item cost increase.

EDIT: Unless you're saying that the 1-to-5 conversion defined in the item creation rules only applies to the sale price, and XP costs are 1/25th the base price plus all of the spell XP cost? I can see how it looks that way...

[Darg]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem...oldPieceValues
defines, under "Spell has XP cost" to "Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge". Scrolls are a specific exception to this, but single-use, use-activated items are not. Admittedly, the Ring of Three Wishes does list crafting requirements in the way you describe, but the rules for creating items also specifically list that ring under the header saying it should add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge. So, in short, the rules seem to contradict themselves regarding the Ring of Three Wishes in particular, but the general rule still seems to be spell XP costs being converted into an item cost increase.

That's just the gp cost to create the item. You still need to pay the xp component cost of the item. When you make items with charges, you don't add the XP component cost per charge and instead use the gp conversion. Otherwise crafting charged items with these spells would be detrimental to player character progression. Thus the ring of three wishes adds 50,000 gp in cost just for the two wishes beyond the first.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components.

The XP cost to create a scroll of wish is 5,153 XP. The market price is only dictated on the component cost however so you have a 25,000 gp cost from the XP component and 3,825 gp from making a 9th level scroll for the total of 28,825 gp you can find on the scrolls table. To wish for a scroll or a single use use activated item you need to pay 2x the XP cost of the item + 5000 XP as per wish's description. Thus, to wish for a scroll of wish from a scroll of wish, the original scroll would have to have an XP cost of 20,459 ((5,153*2 + 5000) + 5000 + 153). The market price of such a scroll would be 105,355 gp (add +3,825 for a single use use-activated item).

[Crake]

EDIT: Unless you're saying that the 1-to-5 conversion defined in the item creation rules only applies to the sale price, and XP costs are 1/25th the base price plus all of the spell XP cost? I can see how it looks that way...

That is indeed how it works, yes. XP costs when provided as part of a service are typically converted at a 1xp:5gp ratio, and that includes magic item crafting.

Also worth noting that the time to craft is also calculated based on the base price, not the total market value, so that 5000xp that adds 25kgp to the market value DOESNT add 25 days to the crafting time

[Tohron]

That is indeed how it works, yes. XP costs when provided as part of a service are typically converted at a 1xp:5gp ratio, and that includes magic item crafting.

Also worth noting that the time to craft is also calculated based on the base price, not the total market value, so that 5000xp that adds 25kgp to the market value DOESNT add 25 days to the crafting time

Ah, thanks. Well, looking further, the section for creating Wondrous Items does specifically say that XP costs are not spent in crafting them and the item prices should be used as a direct guideline for crafting costs - so my original method still works.