Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

[Rynjin]

Q 239

How much time does it take to scatter caltrops?

A 239 Dropping caltrops most cleanly fits into the Manipulate an Item action, which is usually a move action, according to page 187 of the CRB in the Combat chapter.

They are listed as weapons/weapon accessories, so a Standard seems more accurate.

[Segev]

Q240: In the Overchannel feat it says that the normal rule is that your manifester level is equal to the sum of all manifester classes you have. I recall in 3.5 the rule was as it is for spellcasters, where each one had its own caster level. So a Psion 5/Wilder 5 would, like a Wizard 5/Sorcerer 5, have an ML of 5 in each class, not have an ML of 10. But this rule, if true, means that DSP's PF update says a Psion 5/Wilder 5 automatically has ML 10 for both classes.

My question is: is this a mistake? Is there somewhere else in the DSP rules for PF Psionics that says ML works as CL does for multiclassing? I can't find it, if so, but my gut tells me that's what it "should" be. I'd appreciate a citation if anybody can find one.

Thanks!

[Psyren]

A240: That line was copied over from the 3.5 Overchannel feat (XPH 49), but it was widely determined to be a syntax error, because it contradicts the far more specific provision under "Multiclass Psionic Characters" (XPH 17-18). Here is the full example text which didn't make it to the SRD:

Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. For example, a 5th-level psion/5th-level psychic warrior has 20 power points from her psion levels (plus any bonus points for a high Intelligence score) and 7 power points from her psychic warrior levels (plus any bonus points for a high Wisdom score), for a total of 27 power points (plus any bonus points). These points can be used to manifest any psion or psychic warrior powers the character knows. Your psychic energy springs from a single common source, and is not segregated by your training.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know. For example, a 10th-level psion/2nd-level psychic warrior can spend up to 10 points when manifesting a psion power, but only up to 2 points when manifesting a psychic warrior power. Your wellspring of psychic energy is a single pool, but you might possess very different levels of training or accomplishment with powers you learned from different classes.

[Segev]

A240: That line was copied over from the 3.5 Overchannel feat (XPH 49), but it was widely determined to be a syntax error, because it contradicts the far more specific provision under "Multiclass Psionic Characters" (XPH 17-18). Here is the full example text which didn't make it to the SRD:

Thanks. I'll check the Ultimate Psionics book for text like that, too. I keep forgetting the SRD doesn't necessarily have all the text from things.

[Cieyrin]

Thanks. I'll check the Ultimate Psionics book for text like that, too. I keep forgetting the SRD doesn't necessarily have all the text from things.

Looking at my copy of Ultimate Psionics, it's on page 27. Worded slightly differently but looks to be the same meaning as Psyren posted.

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.
While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

[Segev]

Looking at my copy of Ultimate Psionics, it's on page 27. Worded slightly differently but looks to be the same meaning as Psyren posted.

Thanks! That’s very helpful!

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Q241 Do you have to be able to speak to use Handle animal, or Wild empathy? In particular, can a Wildshaped Druid handle their animal companion as usual?

I can assume that the creators intended it to be that way, but I can't see it explicitly stated anywhere.

I've looked at the skill list entry for Handle animal, it doesn't actually say anything about having to speak to get that done. In real life, I've seen sheepdogs respond to a simple gesture, for example, so surely a magical person would be able to do that.

For Wild empathy on animals in general, I think it should work the same sort of way - there's no reason why you should have to use speech: the animal doesn't understand it anyway.

Me, I'd be happy to rule that it doesn't matter what form you're in - unless that form is naturally overwhelmingly frightening to the animal, such a fire elemental - but I wonder if there's a published rule one way or the other.

[upho]

A 241 The RAW don't explicitly say whether commands must be heard or be communicated via any one other specific sense.

Like many other finer details regarding ACs, I assume the above is mostly because it varies greatly depending on not only your game's/group's play style, but also the specific situation, trick/command and animal in question. Presumably, you could at least direct your AC without sound when another form of communication which the AC can understand is possible, such as touch (=riding, pulling a harness/mane etc) or visual (=make "defend" sign and point at ally). In combat, it's however likely that your GM rules that only verbal commands are possible, at least unless you're mounted and only give the most basic combat commands (less complex than "charge that enemy". Your GM may also very well rule that having more than one means of giving commands may require additional tricks, or a higher DC and longer time to teach the trick in question.

Regardless, even should sound be necessary, those sounds don't have to be actual words. So I presume you should be capable of directing at least your own AC with "verbal" commands also while you're wildshaped, as you've presumably trained your AC to understand such commands.

When it comes to wild empathy, it seems you'd need Natural Spell, but nothing else.

[Psyren]

A241 Addendum: Wild empathy from the PHB requires "body language, vocalizations, and demeanor." Note that vocalizations are not the same as speech. While that specific language wasn't brought over to PF, it's unlikely they intended to change wild empathy's functionality much either.

[Elysiume]

Q242:

Catechesis (Ex): If a Hellknight signifer has the Warrior Priest feat, his class level stacks with other divine spellcasting classes for determining the effects of those classes’ domain powers, inquisitions, and mysteries. This doesn’t grant any new powers or abilities. In addition, a Hellknight signifer with the Warrior Priest feat gains Alignment Channel (chaos) as a bonus feat, and treats his Hellknight signifer levels as cleric levels when determining the amount of damage healed or dealt and saving throw DCs of his channeled energy.

Mystery: Each oracle draws upon a divine mystery to grant her spells and powers. This mystery also grants additional class skills and other special abilities. This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent. Regardless of its source, the mystery manifests in a number of ways as the oracle gains levels. An oracle must pick one mystery upon taking her first level of oracle. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

Do the additional spells count as "new powers or abilities" or is that specifically referring to things like getting a new domain power at level 8? If you had an oracle 1 / cleric 5 / hellknight signifer 5, would you have 3 mystery spells, 2 of which you can't cast?

e: This is really just an academic thing in this instance (since I can't think of any reason to care about knowing spells you can't actually cast), but I'm curious if there's an explicit definition for what constitutes a new power or ability.

[Psyren]

A242: As written, new spells would be new abilities, so you wouldn't get them.

The designer has stated his intent was for your existing domain powers/revelations to continue scaling, not for you to get anything new. He doesn't mention the additional spells specifically but that intent (plus the prima facie text) seems to leave them out as well.

[unseenmage]

Q243

A Pallid Vector Swamp Blight kills a pallid vector infected creature... what undead does it rise as?
Or any Create Spawn ability that triggers in the blighted zone really.

I imagine that more rapid create spawn abilities will activate first. Something that causes a corpse to rise as a zombie immediately would raise the corpse before a similar ability that takes a few hours to complete could.

But how does one resolve it if both abilities have the same duration?

[Psyren]

Q243

A Pallid Vector Swamp Blight kills a pallid vector infected creature... what undead does it rise as?
Or any Create Spawn ability that triggers in the blighted zone really.

I imagine that more rapid create spawn abilities will activate first. Something that causes a corpse to rise as a zombie immediately would raise the corpse before a similar ability that takes a few hours to complete could.

But how does one resolve it if both abilities have the same duration?

Could you list the source or provide a link to this stuff? My first few searches haven't turned up much and I'm not familiar with any of it.

[Elysiume]

Could you list the source or provide a link to this stuff? My first few searches haven't turned up much and I'm not familiar with any of it.

Pallid Vector, Swamp Blight

The relevant parts look to be:

Unquiet Bog (Su) All humanoid creatures that die within a swamp blight’s cursed domain rise from death as mummies. Creatures with 7 or fewer Hit Dice rise as swamp mummies (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 5 178), while creatures with 8 or more Hit Dice rise as mummy lords (Bestiary 5 176). A swamp blight can control a number of Hit Dice of mummies equal to double its own Hit Dice (up to 38 Hit Dice of mummies for most swamp blights); additional mummies created beyond this limit are free-willed but still regard the swamp blight as an ally.

Pale Rebirth (Su): When a pallid vector dies, it rises as a plague zombie (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 289) 1 round later. Instead of zombie rot, it spreads pallid gift (see Disease below). Sprinkling holy water on the body (a standard action) before it rises prevents this. A humanoid pallid vector that kills itself ritualistically or dies within a desecrate effect or other area that promotes undeath rises as a more powerful undead instead, as if it had died from pallid gift (see table below).

Unless there's a specific answer for create spawn, this seems like a more general question of "if there are multiple mutually-exclusive effects that would trigger from the same condition, which one triggers?" I'm not sure of the RAW answer.

[unseenmage]

Pallid Vector, Swamp Blight

The relevant parts look to be:

Unless there's a specific answer for create spawn, this seems like a more general question of "if there are multiple mutually-exclusive effects that would trigger from the same condition, which one triggers?" I'm not sure of the RAW answer.

Thank you for referencing. Apologies for neglecting to do so myself at the time.

As I'd mentioned, a slower create spawns vs a faster one is easy to resolve. If the creature has already been turned undead then it cannot be turned undead after all.

A better example would be Rawhead making a Bloody Bones in a Swamp Blight's blighted area. Both try to trigger immediately but theres no indication which one would resolve.

Or a Pallid Vector infected creature dying of ghoul fever. Is it a Pallid Vector Plague Zombie or a Ghoul/Ghast?

[Cieyrin]

Thank you for referencing. Apologies for neglecting to do so myself at the time.

As I'd mentioned, a slower create spawns vs a faster one is easy to resolve. If the creature has already been turned undead then it cannot be turned undead after all.

A better example would be Rawhead making a Bloody Bones in a Swamp Blight's blighted area. Both try to trigger immediately but theres no indication which one would resolve.

Or a Pallid Vector infected creature dying of ghoul fever. Is it a Pallid Vector Plague Zombie or a Ghoul/Ghast?

I don't think there's a RAW answer. I would probably allow the more powerful effect take precedence (CR or CL) in such a case, though, if timing doesn't dictate otherwise.

A slight gotcha, a Pallid Vector can't be infected by ghoul fever, they're immune to disease. The Pallid Gift doesn't share, apparently.

[Elysiume]

Q244a: Do unarmed strikes and natural attacks count as weapons as long as it doesn't specify "manufactured"?
Q244b: Do effects that deal damage to a weapon hitting them apply to unarmed strikes and natural attacks? If so, is the damage just dealt to the character to made the attack?

Unarmed strike says "an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon" and natural attacks are explicitly referred to as using "natural weapons" in various places (e.g. Magic Fang and Molten Form, below), making it so that unarmed strikes and natural attacks are (arguably) using weapons. Can't find an explicit rule for this right now, so it's 244a.

Molten Form (Ex): A shard slag’s molten metal body is hot enough to melt stone. Creatures that begin their turn within 5 feet of a shard slag take 1d6 points of fire damage. Anyone striking a shard slag with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 2d6 points of fire damage. A creature that grapples a shard slag or is grappled by one takes 3d6 points of fire damage each round the grapple persists. A creature that strikes a shard slag with a weapon can attempt a DC 22 Reflex save; if it fails, it’s unable to pull the weapon away from the shard slag’s molten body quickly enough, and the weapon takes 2d6 points of fire damage. Unattended objects in contact with a shard slag take 2d6 points of fire damage per round. Damage caused to weapons and unattended objects is not halved, and ignores the first 5 points of hardness. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Shatter Weapons (Ex): Whenever a character strikes a cephalophore with a weapon (magical or non-magical), the weapon takes 3d6 points of damage. Apply the weapon’s hardness normally. Weapons that take any amount of damage in excess of their hardness gain the broken condition.

Molten Form does 2d6 fire damage to the creature, plus a save for damage against the weapon. Shatter Weapons just specifies "a weapon." Considering the additional 2d6 damage against weapons as the effect in question for Molten Form, do either of these effects affect unarmed/natural attacks? If so, is the damage done to the character "wielding" the weapon?

[Seto]

A244: Magic weapon (the spell) states:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

The "natural attacks" paragraph in Universal Monster abilities states (respectively the first and the last sentence):

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon).
[...]
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.

From this we can infer that there IS a raw distinction between weapons, unarmed strike and natural attacks. As to what exactly that distinction is, the wording in both sources above can appear confusing or contradictory. According to the first, natural weapons are distinct from manufactured weapons. An unarmed strike is a natural weapon. The Monk's exception is specific to that class. The Monk's Unarmed Strike ability says:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

According to the second source, unarmed strikes are not natural attacks (defined as "attacks made without a weapon"), but they may be natural weapons. Important to note: a creature with natural attacks (claw, bite, etc.) is never unarmed ; they're always considered armed for the purpose of, say, threatening AoOs. An unarmed creature without natural attacks and without Improved unarmed strike is not considered armed, and does not threaten.
The problem is the use of the word "weapon". Sometimes it's used in a broad sense (e.g. attacks that aren't from spells), in which case unarmed strikes and natural attacks are weapons. But most often, it's used as a shorthand for "manufactured weapons" (such as is the case in the two above quotes).

So, to sum up:
- "Weapon damage" in a broad sense designates damage from a physical, non-magic attack made by a creature. For example, when a statblock tells you that a swarm is "immune to weapon damage", it includes natural weapons, manufactured weapons, and unarmed strike.
- Natural weapons are non-manufactured weapons. They include natural attacks (claw, bite etc.) as well as unarmed strikes.
- Unarmed strike, although as well as gauntlet, is classified as a light "unarmed attack" rather than a weapon, according to the weapon tables. But the text then goes on to say that "an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon". Which is contradictory. The Monk's exception only applies to effects that improve weapons, and has no bearing on the general classification of unarmed strikes.

Conclusion: it's a mess and requires GM adjudication. RAW is not 100% clear.

However, addressing your specific concern, it seems clear to me that in both quotes you provide, "weapon" is used as a shorthand for "manufactured weapons". It's especially clear in the first case, given that Molten Form describes separately what happens to natural attacks and what happens to weapons.

[Psyren]

As noted, the Cephalaphore ability is just poorly-worded. Yes, natural weapons are weapons, but they wouldn't take damage from this ability.

[Elysiume]

Thanks for the responses. I'd considered the idea of stealing some of the called shot rules for damage to unarmed/natural attacks, but introducing the idea of being able to sunder natural attacks feels like opening a can of worms. I'll have shatter weapons only affect manufactured weapons (since that feels a bit more flavorful) and will just handle anything else on a case-by-case basis.

[MizuDevil]

Q 245: I have question about Ready Action and battle 1 on 1.
Do I miss my regular action in fight 1 on 1 after ready action or this don`t have any consequences for my character and initiative?

Spoiler: Initiative Consequences of Readying

Show

Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

For example:
I have a fight with my enemy 1 on 1. My turn is first and enemy use melee weapon. I ready standard action - when enemy attacks me, I attack him with my sword and make 5 foot step.
Enemy charges me, I use my ready up action, make attack and take 5 foot step, increasing range between us. His attack goes to waste, because he cant reach me. I must move my initiative before my enemy, but this is fight 1 on 1, so nothing changes. Enemy can only make free\ swift action after his charge, so he ends his turn. Now must be my turn. Do I lose my regular action? Or this counts as new round (After my and enemy's turns) and I can just do my turn as I pleases?
Thank you.

[Seto]

A245: Basically, the rule just means that you don't get more than your normal actions in a single round. So if you readied in round 1 and you take your readied action in round 1, your initiative count doesn't change.
But if you take your readied action in round 2, it now counts as your turn for round 2, you move up in the initiative order, and you don't get any more actions for that round. The sequence goes as such:

Spoiler

Show

Player 1: rolls initiative, gets 15.
Player 2: rolls initiative, gets 10.
Turn 1 -
Player 1 (initiative 15): readies action.
Player 2(initiative 10): starts his actions and triggers the readied action.
Player 1(initiative 10): interrupts player 2's turn and performs the readied action. Player 1's initiative count now becomes 10; from now on, he will act immediately before Player 2.
Player 2: finishes his turn.
Turn 2-
Player 1 (initiative 10): readies action.
Player 2 (initiative 10): starts his turn, player 1 interrupts, etc. Proceed as in turn 1.

So no, in the case you presented, neither player will ever "lose" their turn. That's because player 1 was ahead in initiative. However! Things change if the readying player is second in initiative order. Look what happens if player 2 readies instead:

Spoiler

Show

Turn 1-
Player 1 (initiative 15): acts.
Player 2 (initiative 10): readies an action.
Turn 2-
Player 1 (initiative 15): acts, trigger readied action.
Player 2 (initiative 15): performs readied action. Moves to 15 in initiative count, will act ahead of player 1 from now on.
Player 1 (initiative 15): finishes his turn.
On initiative 10: nothing happens. If the readied action had not been triggered, Player 2 would take his turn now. But it has been triggered. Player 2 does not get a second turn this round.
Turn 3-
Player 2 (initiative 15): acts.
Player 1 (initiative 15): acts.

Incidentally, I would rule that after your readied action (attack + 5ft step), player 2 gets to finish his charge, unless he had already moved double his speed. "Interrupt an action" does not mean "end it".

[W3bDragon]

Q246: Would imbibing Essence of independence allow the user a new save against Insanity?

[Psyren]

A246: Yes, provided that the Insanity results from an effect that allowed a saving throw in the first place (e.g. the spell.) If you go insane via some other means (e.g. running out of Sanity due to the optional Sanity rules) then there won't be an effect to retry your save against.

[Draconi Redfir]

Q:247 Can weather-related spells such as Blizzard be used indoors? If so, what's their area of effect?

[Elysiume]

A247a: Blizzard isn't a spell, it's a word of power to be used with the identically-named system in Ultimate Magic. It has no range or AoE specified because it would need to be coupled with a target word. Blizzard restricts the only legal target words to burst (emanation), so you would choose the size of burst and modify the spell level accordingly.
A247b: Spells don't have restrictions RAW unless they say they do, even if that makes the flavor weird. Weather spells aren't a specific or special classification and Blizzard could be used to build a spell similar to Sleet Storm which has no restrictions against being cast indoors.

To answer a sort of implicit question, Blizzard and Sleet Storm are both Conjuration (Creation) spells indicating that they're creating snow from nothing. You could compare that to something like Control Weather which is a Transmutation spell, indicating that it is actually altering the real-world weather patterns.

[Seto]

Q248: Asking for clarification on incorporeal creatures. Specifically, the following sentence from Universal Monster Rules: "Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.".
Is it "(corporeal spells and effects) that do not cause damage", or "corporeal spells (and effects that do not cause damage)"? How is a "corporeal spell" defined? I'm guessing something like Haste or Slow would have 50% chance of affecting a ghost, right?

[Psyren]

A248: While it's unfortunately not clear, I've always defined a corporeal spell as one cast by a corporeal creature. So haste/slow cast by a human sorcerer has a 50% miss chance on them. But haste/slow effect from say, a fluxwraith will always work on another incorporeal creature. I don't know whether this interpretation is definitive however.

[W3bDragon]

Q 249: Can a Magus use the Lingering Pain Arcana to turn the damage of his last attack in a full attack action into continuous damage by spending an immediate action after his turn ends? For the sake of argument, assume that his swift action was used earlier in that same turn.

My fellow players believe that to activate it on an attack made during the Magus' turn can only be done with that turn's swift action. I'm not so sure.

[KillianHawkeye]

Q248: Asking for clarification on incorporeal creatures. Specifically, the following sentence from Universal Monster Rules: "Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.".
Is it "(corporeal spells and effects) that do not cause damage", or "corporeal spells (and effects that do not cause damage)"? How is a "corporeal spell" defined? I'm guessing something like Haste or Slow would have 50% chance of affecting a ghost, right?

A 248

It's the first one. Any spell or effect which comes from a corporeal source and doesn't deal damage has a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.

We can see that this is the meaning by looking at the sentence in question within the context of the other incorporeal rules:

It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

So an incorporeal creature...

• is immune to non-magical attack forms
• takes half damage from spells and magic weapons (except channel energy) from a corporeal source
• is affected by holy water if it is undead
• has a 50% chance of being affected by non-damaging spells and effects from a corporeal source
• is affected normally by force spells and effects