A Practical Guide to Evil

[Calemyr]

Someone in the book's comments section pointed out something interesting: the Woe is losing Named pretty fast. Cat is effectively Nameless, Akua is dead (and therefore presumably Nameless), Vivian is supposedly Nameless, Idrani is shaken and out of character, Masego is shaken and out of character, and Hakram is down to half a hand (the logistics of a skeletal hand creep me out)... That's all of them, isn't it? The only one with a stable grip on their name is Hakram, who is still a bedrock of practical support, but his combat presence is somewhat lessened at the moment.

Now, I can see this going one of two ways. The first one is the typical path: pushed to the brink, the struggling Woe will either reforge their Names or claim new ones, coming back stronger than ever and scaring the ever-loving hell out of their enemies, which is an achievement given the standards they already set. It's a good story, and a satisfying one, but a little bit straightforward.

The other path I see is them turning the world on its head by daring to be badass without Names to their... uh... names. Sick of being the gods' chess pieces, of being used and abused and abandoned because of some line drawn on another plane of reality? Change the game. Names bring power, but also Fate, and are bound to the Story. A Nameless champion with a grudge against both sides, and the intelligence, luck, charisma, and (let's be blunt) balls to do half the things Cat has done? I can't imagine a bigger middle finger to the status quo, and Catherine Foundling likes her middle fingers.

[Forum Explorer]

Someone in the book's comments section pointed out something interesting: the Woe is losing Named pretty fast. Cat is effectively Nameless, Akua is dead (and therefore presumably Nameless), Vivian is supposedly Nameless, Idrani is shaken and out of character, Masego is shaken and out of character, and Hakram is down to half a hand (the logistics of a skeletal hand creep me out)... That's all of them, isn't it? The only one with a stable grip on their name is Hakram, who is still a bedrock of practical support, but his combat presence is somewhat lessened at the moment.

Now, I can see this going one of two ways. The first one is the typical path: pushed to the brink, the struggling Woe will either reforge their Names or claim new ones, coming back stronger than ever and scaring the ever-loving hell out of their enemies, which is an achievement given the standards they already set. It's a good story, and a satisfying one, but a little bit straightforward.

The other path I see is them turning the world on its head by daring to be badass without Names to their... uh... names. Sick of being the gods' chess pieces, of being used and abused and abandoned because of some line drawn on another plane of reality? Change the game. Names bring power, but also Fate, and are bound to the Story. A Nameless champion with a grudge against both sides, and the intelligence, luck, charisma, and (let's be blunt) balls to do half the things Cat has done? I can't imagine a bigger middle finger to the status quo, and Catherine Foundling likes her middle fingers.

I certainly see something like this happening. The Woe is basically opposed to the whole status quo of Heroes and Villains rampaging over a pissing contest between Above and Below. So they keep acting contrary to the idea of Names and eventually surpass them entirely.

[Red Fel]

Now, I can see this going one of two ways. The first one is the typical path: pushed to the brink, the struggling Woe will either reforge their Names or claim new ones, coming back stronger than ever and scaring the ever-loving hell out of their enemies, which is an achievement given the standards they already set. It's a good story, and a satisfying one, but a little bit straightforward.

The other path I see is them turning the world on its head by daring to be badass without Names to their... uh... names. Sick of being the gods' chess pieces, of being used and abused and abandoned because of some line drawn on another plane of reality? Change the game. Names bring power, but also Fate, and are bound to the Story. A Nameless champion with a grudge against both sides, and the intelligence, luck, charisma, and (let's be blunt) balls to do half the things Cat has done? I can't imagine a bigger middle finger to the status quo, and Catherine Foundling likes her middle fingers.

I certainly see something like this happening. The Woe is basically opposed to the whole status quo of Heroes and Villains rampaging over a pissing contest between Above and Below. So they keep acting contrary to the idea of Names and eventually surpass them entirely.

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While I can see those options, I see sort of a corollary to the first one.

First principles: When is Cat at her strongest? Answer: When she uses the story to her advantage. When she turns into the redeemed, triumphant queen, or when she sets the villain's chained pet loose on it. In short, when she harnesses heroic story beats - the stories on which she grew up, as a citizen of a Good kingdom under Evil rule.

Now, stop me if you've heard this one.

The characters have struggled and grown, and more importantly, lost. They have made deals they regret, and been stripped of their powers and privileges. They face impossible odds and are surrounded on all sides.

Sound familiar? It's an heroic story. It's the story of heroes about to turn the tide and utterly dominate an enemy they have no real right to defeat.

As you point out, Calemyr, it's satisfying but straightforward. The twist isn't that they win, it's that they win by playing at heroes.

But there's more. One of the commenters in a recent chapter observed something Cat has been doing lately. In referring to Black, she has been using familial terminology. I noticed this as well - in a recent chapter, she didn't say mentor or father-figure. She said father.

I think this is deliberate. I think this is once again Cat using the story. And I think this is another story beat - the heroine battling to overcome the odds and be reunited with her father. (Or, alternatively, to become motivated to do the impossible by his his death.)

Yes, Cat is basically opposed to the whole idea of the story and the Named as pawns for Above and Below. But right now, there's a bigger concern - an unstoppable army of the dead poised to sweep over the continent. She doesn't want to disrupt the plans of Above and Below right now, she wants to disrupt the plans of the Dead King and the fool Empress who let him out. And I think she plans to do that by wielding the one thing the Dead King absolutely cannot resist or prevent - a strong narrative.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm..Well its actually a long time since Cat were named. She did some of her most feared work as a sort of Winter-Fae.
She has just undergone another class change, for one with less direct combat power, because it also comes with less crippling insanity.

I certainly see something like this happening. The Woe is basically opposed to the whole status quo of Heroes and Villains rampaging over a pissing contest between Above and Below. So they keep acting contrary to the idea of Names and eventually surpass them entirely.

Thats not The Woe's goal, the majority of the Woe does not really care about much besides a handful of people.
Its only Cat who has the actual vision and long term goals.

The problem is though, that there isnt such a thing as surpassing names. Or well thats perhaps a bit wrong.
As i mentioned previously Cat did so when she were on the path to ascencion as the last remaining member of the Winter Court.
The problem is that made her even more insane than regular named.

Archer just also showed us very clearly that if your a regular human, then your chaff for a named.
And if you act contrary to your name, then you will grow weaker and eventually lose it. Like Black or Thief did.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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While I can see those options, I see sort of a corollary to the first one.

First principles: When is Cat at her strongest? Answer: When she uses the story to her advantage. When she turns into the redeemed, triumphant queen, or when she sets the villain's chained pet loose on it. In short, when she harnesses heroic story beats - the stories on which she grew up, as a citizen of a Good kingdom under Evil rule.

Now, stop me if you've heard this one.

The characters have struggled and grown, and more importantly, lost. They have made deals they regret, and been stripped of their powers and privileges. They face impossible odds and are surrounded on all sides.

Sound familiar? It's an heroic story. It's the story of heroes about to turn the tide and utterly dominate an enemy they have no real right to defeat.

As you point out, Calemyr, it's satisfying but straightforward. The twist isn't that they win, it's that they win by playing at heroes.

But there's more. One of the commenters in a recent chapter observed something Cat has been doing lately. In referring to Black, she has been using familial terminology. I noticed this as well - in a recent chapter, she didn't say mentor or father-figure. She said father.

I think this is deliberate. I think this is once again Cat using the story. And I think this is another story beat - the heroine battling to overcome the odds and be reunited with her father. (Or, alternatively, to become motivated to do the impossible by his his death.)

Yes, Cat is basically opposed to the whole idea of the story and the Named as pawns for Above and Below. But right now, there's a bigger concern - an unstoppable army of the dead poised to sweep over the continent. She doesn't want to disrupt the plans of Above and Below right now, she wants to disrupt the plans of the Dead King and the fool Empress who let him out. And I think she plans to do that by wielding the one thing the Dead King absolutely cannot resist or prevent - a strong narrative.

She points out though that when the narrative is all that stands, then it fails hard. It helps, but it doesn't determine what happens. You are right that the Dead King is her top priority, but she was planning on unleashing him herself, if in a more restrained manner.

Thats not The Woe's goal, the majority of the Woe does not really care about much besides a handful of people.
Its only Cat who has the actual vision and long term goals.

The problem is though, that there isnt such a thing as surpassing names. Or well thats perhaps a bit wrong.
As i mentioned previously Cat did so when she were on the path to ascencion as the last remaining member of the Winter Court.
The problem is that made her even more insane than regular named.

Archer just also showed us very clearly that if your a regular human, then your chaff for a named.
And if you act contrary to your name, then you will grow weaker and eventually lose it. Like Black or Thief did.

Sure, but the Woe follows Cat, and even when she isn't around they still try to keep true to her goals.

It's weird, because Cat very much is still more powerful then a Named, and she isn't one at all. Vivi's name is fading, but it's not like she can't or doesn't steal stuff still. We have no idea what's up with the Heirophant and his status. Watching an angel explode (or whatever it was that the Warlock did) did something to him, but we have no idea what yet.

[lord_khaine]

Cat is a curious case. I would argue that the end of the underdark arc were he realising what matter isnt power but control.
And that control is just a more blunt form of influence.

At the moment, Cat herself is far weaker than a named, or even a regular soldier since she herself is now just a slightly crippled young woman.
But being the high priestess of dark she has the ear of a goddess, and is continually being empowered by the dark now.
Though in itself i dont think that leaves her more powerful than a named. She has not really done anything to outdo the other named spellcasters we have seen like ashen priestess.
Let alone the heavyweight ones like Warlock or WotW.

Vivienne's name wasnt fading. We were told it was gone. So yes, she were a thief before she became Thief, so she can steal stuff, she just cant steal things like the sun or a fleet any more.
As for Warlock, i seriously doubt he could explode an angel, but he did not need to anyway. He just had to explode everything else besides his son. To safe him.
That makes Hierophants case rather clear i think. Both his parents are dead. And he dont have the emotional capacity to handle something like that.

[Forum Explorer]

Cat is a curious case. I would argue that the end of the underdark arc were he realising what matter isnt power but control.
And that control is just a more blunt form of influence.

At the moment, Cat herself is far weaker than a named, or even a regular soldier since she herself is now just a slightly crippled young woman.
But being the high priestess of dark she has the ear of a goddess, and is continually being empowered by the dark now.
Though in itself i dont think that leaves her more powerful than a named. She has not really done anything to outdo the other named spellcasters we have seen like ashen priestess.
Let alone the heavyweight ones like Warlock or WotW.

Vivienne's name wasnt fading. We were told it was gone. So yes, she were a thief before she became Thief, so she can steal stuff, she just cant steal things like the sun or a fleet any more.
As for Warlock, i seriously doubt he could explode an angel, but he did not need to anyway. He just had to explode everything else besides his son. To safe him.
That makes Hierophants case rather clear i think. Both his parents are dead. And he dont have the emotional capacity to handle something like that.

She basically has access to all the powers of the Dark and all the powers of Winter, even if she isn't the source of her own power anymore.

We haven't seen what's up with Vivi yet. We know her name is gone or something, but we don't know if it was replaced, or why she lost it in the first place.

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, all we know is that he did something that was so crazy that everything but the Hierophant died, and the Hierophant was watching the whole time.

That's certainly a part of whatever is going on, maybe even all of it. We'll see. His status is unclear but he is probably still Named.

[Red Fel]

She basically has access to all the powers of the Dark and all the powers of Winter, even if she isn't the source of her own power anymore.

Cat's advantage was never just her powers, Name or otherwise. It was the fact that she always managed to buck the story. If anything, losing her powers made her better able to do that, as without Winter or a Name she's less constrained by the narrative.

We haven't seen what's up with Vivi yet. We know her name is gone or something, but we don't know if it was replaced, or why she lost it in the first place.

My guess? She stopped being the Thief when she started having instead of taking, or started taking legitimately instead of taking covertly, or when she accepted being Vivienne Dartwick over being Thief. Either that, or this is all a ploy to convince people that she isn't Thief anymore, when in fact she still is.

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, all we know is that he did something that was so crazy that everything but the Hierophant died, and the Hierophant was watching the whole time.

That's certainly a part of whatever is going on, maybe even all of it. We'll see. His status is unclear but he is probably still Named.

Yeah. Hierophant is basically the wild card in this scenario. Everyone else is going to move in fairly predictable ways. Procer is going to desperately pursue the Legions in an attempt to recover its legitimacy, aided by Pilgrim; the Tyrant is going to move in whatever manner is most disruptive at any given time; the Dead King is going to do his best impression of White Walkers and simply march inexorably; Cat is going to do whatever it takes to disarm, but not destroy, her enemies long enough to convince them to fight the Dead. Hierophant is, in actuality, the most unpredictable variable in all of this.

[lord_khaine]

She basically has access to all the powers of the Dark and all the powers of Winter, even if she isn't the source of her own power anymore.

Dark ate Winter, so its mostly Dark she has at this point.
And while she has access to it, then she does not have it in the magnitude she used to have.
She also lack the magical body she used to have, that in itself leaves her much weaker.

My guess? She stopped being the Thief when she started having instead of taking, or started taking legitimately instead of taking covertly, or when she accepted being Vivienne Dartwick over being Thief. Either that, or this is all a ploy to convince people that she isn't Thief anymore, when in fact she still is.

Yeah i think thats pretty clear as well.
We have seen that the amount of power you can draw from your name is proportional with how well aligned you are with your role.
So i find it extremely likely that she lost her name when she began taking over the role of regent for real.

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, all we know is that he did something that was so crazy that everything but the Hierophant died, and the Hierophant was watching the whole time.

I believe part of the reason for why warlock decided to go all out like that, was that Hierophant had knocked himself unconcious while trying to mess with a miracle.

[Forum Explorer]

Dark ate Winter, so its mostly Dark she has at this point.
And while she has access to it, then she does not have it in the magnitude she used to have.
She also lack the magical body she used to have, that in itself leaves her much weaker.


I believe part of the reason for why warlock decided to go all out like that, was that Hierophant had knocked himself unconcious while trying to mess with a miracle.

She still has Faire Gates, so it's not like there is nothing from Winter left.
I wouldn't say magnitude as much as she's lost endurance. She can't just keep going throwing out miracle after miracle. She needs to rest.
True, but the Dark also has regeneration abilities, so she should have those as well if she really needs them.


The Hierophant had disabled himself, but he was aware. The text did say he witnessed what happened.

[lord_khaine]

She still has Faire Gates, so it's not like there is nothing from Winter left.
I wouldn't say magnitude as much as she's lost endurance. She can't just keep going throwing out miracle after miracle. She needs to rest.
True, but the Dark also has regeneration abilities, so she should have those as well if she really needs them.

I dont think gateways are a specific winter trick. I find it more likely that its something someone with sufficient power can accomplish.
And well yes, she just barely had enough juice to crack a river. After having stolen lakes and dumped oceans on top of others.

As for the darks regenerative ability, i dont think much of it. She went from shrugging off having her throat cut or her body torn over.
To now limping from a bad break of her leg (as i recall).

[The Glyphstone]

Gates into Faerie aren't exclusive to Winter, but Cat's ability to march armies through Faerie without being attacked or harassed by everything and everyone living there is her exclusive privilege (or was, at least).

[lord_khaine]

Oh yes good point, the real reason for why the gates are a viable choice for Kat is mostly just that she bargained right of passage.

[Forum Explorer]

I dont think gateways are a specific winter trick. I find it more likely that its something someone with sufficient power can accomplish.
And well yes, she just barely had enough juice to crack a river. After having stolen lakes and dumped oceans on top of others.

As for the darks regenerative ability, i dont think much of it. She went from shrugging off having her throat cut or her body torn over.
To now limping from a bad break of her leg (as i recall).

We haven't seen her go all out yet either. She's not pushing herself because well, she hasn't needed to, but she's been playing within her limits.


She could heal the limp, but chooses not to. She had it before she became a Winter Fae, and now she's got it back. She wants it as a reminder of her own mortality.

[lord_khaine]

We more or less saw her go all out with the river trick.
She directly explained that it would demand everything she had to do so.

And as for healing her leg, i dont recall anywhere she said she could have healed it if she wanted.
I do recall that she were able to temporary fix the issue with night. But that did not seem like true healing.
More like a different kind of crutch.

[Calemyr]

She found it frustrating that the goddesses reincarnated her with the limp, but also took solace in the fact that she had it - it reminded her that she was alive again (which means a little more for someone who's been at times half-undead, completely undead, and fey). She muses that she could fix it if she wanted to, or use Night to mitigate it for a time, but generally prefers wakeleaf to treat it - in large part because stories deal harshly with villains who rid themselves of all flaws and/or rely on magic.

And I agree that it serves a very solid purpose: Cat spent a year with a snow body that treated dismemberment like a stubbed toe, and attention was paid more than once to how reckless that immortality made her. That limp forces her to stay out of that mindset, keeps her from entertaining the thought that she can just shrug off the consequences if she is careless. Add in the fact of why she has that limp (using necromancy on her own body), and you've got a real, solid reminder that power is not a toy and often carries a price. For a villain still struggling to rise, that little piece of perspective is a more vital power than Winter, Night, or Names.

As for Stories and Villains stealing from the Hero playbook, that's what made the last generation so dangerous. Black and Malicia were at the top of their game when doing just that. Destroying corruption whenever found, instilling not just discipline but pride into their troops, finding a delicate balance between necessity of the state and the well-being of the people, those are traditionally Heroic actions - at least, actions typically employed by the better class of Heroes. Black's motivations weren't Heroic, he wasn't worried about the little guy or morality or apple pie, he just wanted to create a realm where he got what his country needed without a need for reprisal: act like a monster and you will spawn the very Heroes that will tear you down. Evil, in Black's eyes, tends to bring the rope for its own lynching.

I am definitely interested in seeing how this story goes. It dances on the razor's edge between power fantasy and subversion without ever committing to one or the other. It'll be fascinating to see which of the two ultimately wins out.

[Rynjin]

We more or less saw her go all out with the river trick.
She directly explained that it would demand everything she had to do so.

That was in the middle of the day.

[Calemyr]

That was in the middle of the day.

And without the well.

[lord_khaine]

That was in the middle of the day.

Further evidence of how weaker she had grown after losing her semi-immortal snow body.
Previously she did not care about the time of day.

And i am pretty certain the well is a one-shot "doomsday" weapon, so of course she could not use it.
I would not count it if she had used the well. Since thats not even something she has made or charged herself.

What is likely, is that the well is something to cover the main weakness of the drow.
When the Pilgrim turns night into day with a miracle, then Cat will have the well to turn it back into night.

[Red Fel]

Further evidence of how weaker she had grown after losing her semi-immortal snow body.
Previously she did not care about the time of day.

Previously she did not have a connection to Night. Which means that previously, the time of day was irrelevant to her powers.

And i am pretty certain the well is a one-shot "doomsday" weapon, so of course she could not use it.
I would not count it if she had used the well. Since thats not even something she has made or charged herself.

It's probably a one-shot, that's true. But let's be clear - she is making/charging a similar weapon herself.

What is likely, is that the well is something to cover the main weakness of the drow.
When the Pilgrim turns night into day with a miracle, then Cat will have the well to turn it back into night.

That's a distinct possibility. An alternative is that it's just a general counter to Pilgrim's powers. Depending on how you align the tropes, "singular enemy has unstoppable superweapon," in reference to Pilgrim, is a villain trope, countered by "assembly of warriors uses their combined power to thwart the superweapon," in reference to Cat and the Firstborn. Usually, in stories like that, the villain's defeat follows shortly after the destruction of the superweapon, so that's a mark in Cat's favor.

[Calemyr]

Further evidence of how weaker she had grown after losing her semi-immortal snow body.
Previously she did not care about the time of day.

And i am pretty certain the well is a one-shot "doomsday" weapon, so of course she could not use it.
I would not count it if she had used the well. Since thats not even something she has made or charged herself.

What is likely, is that the well is something to cover the main weakness of the drow.
When the Pilgrim turns night into day with a miracle, then Cat will have the well to turn it back into night.

It's fair to say we have different definitions of "going all-out". In my book, that means holding nothing back and using every tool you have to achieve a goal that wouldn't be possible if any asset were spared. Dropping a lake at the Battle of Camps would count as going all out - she had nothing left when it was done. I wouldn't count Cat as going all-out until she's expended her staff and well trump cards.

As for time of day now mattering, it's hard to determine the relative power level between Winter and Night. Winter was reliably powerful and didn't wax and wane, but came with a very nasty psychological side effect that is particularly harmful. Night, on the other hand is at it's strongest at night and at it's weakest at dawn, but without the psychotic breaks. Cat is unique in her role of priestess as she actively interacts with two goddesses on a familiar level and can draw on Night at any time (including dawn). Cat is not shy regarding which of the two power sources she prefers - no matter how much more mortal she is with Night, she is allowed to remain herself rather than devolving into a numb, raving sadist when she pulls on her power too much.

As for the purpose of the well, I think you may be onto something, as that is exactly the kind of gamebreaker move Gray is likely to use, neutering her trump card on the cusp of a pivot.

[lord_khaine]

Previously she did not have a connection to Night. Which means that previously, the time of day was irrelevant to her powers.

Then, even -if- everything else had remained 100 % the same, then i would say not being able to use your full strenght ½ the time, is having grown significantly weaker.
And everything isnt 100 % the same as before.

It's probably a one-shot, that's true. But let's be clear - she is making/charging a similar weapon herself.

Indeed. she is saving up power for a rainy day.
And again the important point is, that before she did not need to do that.

It's fair to say we have different definitions of "going all-out". In my book, that means holding nothing back and using every tool you have to achieve a goal that wouldn't be possible if any asset were spared. Dropping a lake at the Battle of Camps would count as going all out - she had nothing left when it was done. I wouldn't count Cat as going all-out until she's expended her staff and well trump cards.

Well here contex is important, since i myself are utterly shocked that anyone would argue Cat has not lost a significant amount of power going from a semi-immortal fae thing, to a human high priestess with a limp.
And so for as fair a comparison as possible, i measure what Fae Cat has done without preparation against what Priest Cat as done.
Since Fae Cat did not have time to build up a doomsday weapon, then i wont count the one Priest Cat has had time and help building.

As for time of day now mattering, it's hard to determine the relative power level between Winter and Night. Winter was reliably powerful and didn't wax and wane, but came with a very nasty psychological side effect that is particularly harmful. Night, on the other hand is at it's strongest at night and at it's weakest at dawn, but without the psychotic breaks. Cat is unique in her role of priestess as she actively interacts with two goddesses on a familiar level and can draw on Night at any time (including dawn). Cat is not shy regarding which of the two power sources she prefers - no matter how much more mortal she is with Night, she is allowed to remain herself rather than devolving into a numb, raving sadist when she pulls on her power too much.

It is a little hard to compare the two, because with one Cat more or less was the power source, as the last remaining member of the winter court.
With Night meanwhile, Cat just has a direct connection to the one who is the source.

It is clear why she prefers one of them though, as it was an important part of her character development.
In part i would say, to negate some of the power creep that had taken place.

As for the purpose of the well, I think you may be onto something, as that is exactly the kind of gamebreaker move Gray is likely to use, neutering her trump card on the cusp of a pivot.

Ah thank you
And yes it seemed to make sense. Cat has directly remarked on how dawn is the big achilles heel of the drow.
Gray meanwhile is pretty easy to predict, i just though What Would Gandalf Do.

[Forum Explorer]

Then, even -if- everything else had remained 100 % the same, then i would say not being able to use your full strenght ½ the time, is having grown significantly weaker.
And everything isnt 100 % the same as before.



Indeed. she is saving up power for a rainy day.
And again the important point is, that before she did not need to do that.



Well here contex is important, since i myself are utterly shocked that anyone would argue Cat has not lost a significant amount of power going from a semi-immortal fae thing, to a human high priestess with a limp.
And so for as fair a comparison as possible, i measure what Fae Cat has done without preparation against what Priest Cat as done.
Since Fae Cat did not have time to build up a doomsday weapon, then i wont count the one Priest Cat has had time and help building.



It is a little hard to compare the two, because with one Cat more or less was the power source, as the last remaining member of the winter court.
With Night meanwhile, Cat just has a direct connection to the one who is the source.

It is clear why she prefers one of them though, as it was an important part of her character development.
In part i would say, to negate some of the power creep that had taken place.



Ah thank you
And yes it seemed to make sense. Cat has directly remarked on how dawn is the big achilles heel of the drow.
Gray meanwhile is pretty easy to predict, i just though What Would Gandalf Do.

I view it as trading raw power for flexibility. Like her whole campaign against the drow really showed her becoming a blunt object, using raw force to subjugate her foes, rather than any cleverness in her tactics. For all her claims to being really good at handling chaos, she usually depends more on clever tricks then raw force.

Especially if she has access to every trick we've seen the Drow pull out.

So I think she very well might be more dangerous now, even if she can no longer tank an arrow to the face.

[Calemyr]

Ah thank you
And yes it seemed to make sense. Cat has directly remarked on how dawn is the big achilles heel of the drow.
Gray meanwhile is pretty easy to predict, i just though What Would Gandalf Do.

Heh. I'd equate him more to a Good-aligned Juniper: If there is an optimal way to cripple damage to the enemy in a single move without doing unnecessary harm, he will take it, as reliably as Juniper will always make the best decision given proper intel.

I view it as trading raw power for flexibility. Like her whole campaign against the drow really showed her becoming a blunt object, using raw force to subjugate her foes, rather than any cleverness in her tactics. For all her claims to being really good at handling chaos, she usually depends more on clever tricks then raw force.

Especially if she has access to every trick we've seen the Drow pull out.

So I think she very well might be more dangerous now, even if she can no longer tank an arrow to the face.

Night at it's zenith was more than a match for Winter before its focal points became legitimately divine (and before it then absorbed Winter), with an incredible arsenal of abilities and utilities, and Cat's use of it has been wonderfully fluid - one moment simply lighting a pipe, the next shredding ice thick enough to support a charging army, the next turning a sword into a staff that she could lean on. Winter was powerful, but that was pretty much all it was: brute force, whose response to challenge was to output still greater brute force.

The big difference between Winter and Night is that Night plays to Cat's strengths while Winter forced Cat to play to Winter's strengths. Cat is rarely the most powerful person in a room, even her own friends tend to dwarf her in terms beyond the vertical, but Winter forced her to play like Dragon Ball Z (where the person who yells the loudest hits the hardest) when Cat is better suited for... Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (a show where raw power tends to take a back seat to inventive use of limited assets), I guess... The only real reason Cat was effective as a fae was because Winter did the thinking for her - made her cold and sadistic, against her base nature and thus better suited to wield Winter.

I think, in the long run, Cat is much more powerful with Night than with Winter, despite the loss of her pseudo-immortality. She doesn't have as much raw power, but she can make much better use of it. And her mortality plays well to her strengths, as she's never more dangerous than when she's a half step from death. It might just be me, but Fae Cat was never a quarter as much fun to watch compared to any flavor of Mortal Cat: pre-Named, nacent-Named, re-Named, or Priestess. Cat is not Cat when she's not risking everything.

I mean... seriously... we are talking about the girl who legitimately treated a Hero decapitating her as a game-winning move. For her. And then capitalized on it to not just win the day but come back from it better than before by stealing a resurrection in the process and reforging her damaged Name. She was made for Night, not Winter.

[Anteros]

I think we all know that Cat's true Name is "Mary Sue" with all the unstoppable power it carries with it. Or maybe just "protagonist".

I kid of course. Mostly.

[Calemyr]

I think we all know that Cat's true Name is "Mary Sue" with all the unstoppable power it carries with it. Or maybe just "protagonist".

I kid of course. Mostly.

Protagonist, yes. Definitely. Without that particular Name, she'd be dead a dozen times over. But she's had to earn her victories too many times to be a "Mary Sue". I know you're joking, mostly, but I can't let that go uncommented on. The term is used too flippantly these days and has lost all meaning. Being badass, (mostly) successful, and female does not equate to being a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue doesn't earn the power and adoration they receive - they're just given it because they're who they are. Rey can out-pilot veterans, overpower a trained force user, and scare heroes with her potential, all with no training or explanation beyond "the Force is getting sick of being ignored and picked two new champions". For Cat, on the other hand, every step towards power is a hurdle, and she ascends through a mix of tenacity, audacity, ingenuity, dumb luck, and reliance on friends who have talents she lacks. And she screws up - her lack of political acumen is why her kingdom has few allies and a lot of enemies - and those mistakes have meaningful consequences.

[Anteros]

I don't think the term really has much to do with gender these days. Certainly, none of Cat's flaws from the parts of the story I've read have anything to do with gender, and everything to do with being an overpowered web novel character in a universe that bends over backwards to make her look good. Things like "we'll just shoot the enemy during his speech. I'm sure no one ever thought of that before! I'm so smart!" Despite the fact that tactics like this explicitly shouldn't work due to the tropey rules of the setting.

To be honest, there are lots of male characters who are much worse than Cat. Cat at least does struggle for what she achieves, even if it does seem like the plot bends over backwards to make her more competent. Plus, I haven't read more than a third or so of what's written, so maybe she becomes a better character as things go along. Although admittedly the constant gushing about how awesome and powerful she is during the discussions here don't make that seem terribly likely to me.

At the end of the day, I haven't even read most of the story. I really was just poking fun.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Doctor, let's be honest, is far worse (especially during Tennent's run), and he/she's been running for fifty years.

Also Goku. And Naruto. (To the detriment of their series, especially the latter, which is at it's very best when it remembers it's supposed to be a team thing and uses it's large cast properly).

Hell, people call Wolverine - and Superman - stuff like that all the time.



Hoesntly, I'd much rather have an overpowered protagonist than an underpowered one any day of the week, myself.

[tyckspoon]

I don't think the term really has much to do with gender these days. Certainly, none of Cat's flaws from the parts of the story I've read have anything to do with gender, and everything to do with being an overpowered web novel character in a universe that bends over backwards to make her look good. Things like "we'll just shoot the enemy during his speech. I'm sure no one ever thought of that before! I'm so smart!" Despite the fact that tactics like this explicitly shouldn't work due to the tropey rules of the setting.

Well, it wouldn't have worked, except for two conflicting tropes - the 'hero has fancy magic armor' one ran into the 'fancy hero doesn't wear a helmet so you can see his handsome face/flowing hair/etc' one. If he wore his helm, he wouldn't have died. If he didn't have enchanted armor or even if it was a different kind of enchantment, the shot probably would have bounced off his chestplate. Either way the bolt would have merely been a particularly rude way of declining the challenge. As it was.. well, 'overconfident fool gets himself killed in ironic or amusing fashion' is *also* a story, and it's the kind of thing Named should be particularly careful of setting themselves up for.

[DaedalusMkV]

Well, it wouldn't have worked, except for two conflicting tropes - the 'hero has fancy magic armor' one ran into the 'fancy hero doesn't wear a helmet so you can see his handsome face/flowing hair/etc' one. If he wore his helm, he wouldn't have died. If he didn't have enchanted armor or even if it was a different kind of enchantment, the shot probably would have bounced off his chestplate. Either way the bolt would have merely been a particularly rude way of declining the challenge. As it was.. well, 'overconfident fool gets himself killed in ironic or amusing fashion' is *also* a story, and it's the kind of thing Named should be particularly careful of setting themselves up for.

To back this up, it was also well-established prior to that point in the series that Named relying on fancy magical gear is a terrible idea that will get you killed at some point, after the Black Knight specifically pointed out 'You focused too hard on your fancy magic toy and died when somebody cleverly figured out its weakness' was a very common and powerful Story. The whole point of that scene wasn't so much to go 'look at how awesome Cat is, she killed the scary hero no problem!' as to make the audience think 'oh, yeah. Looks like Black was totally right about that whole magic armour thing. Man, what an idiot, just assuming that being a Named and having fancy toys made him invincible'.

It's not really treated as an achievement, so much as the protagonist deciding to take the shot just on the off-chance it would work, and it did work because the opponent was an idiot who was relying way too hard on in-built plot armour and forgot that one of the rules of the setting is you can't do that or the plot armour goes away. If he'd been wearing his helmet, or hadn't had fancy magical armour, or hadn't been quite so arrogant about the whole thing, he'd have lived through it and probably got a power boost in the ensuing conflict when he went off to hunt Cat down for being a dishonorable cur. Some people express shock that it worked, but by the rules of the setting as laid out it was a perfectly logical outcome to what was going on. And, don't forget, the Exiled Prince wasn't even the main hero of that plotline. 'Cocky ally of the big hero does something stupid and gets killed by the villain to show how high the stakes are' is an even stronger Trope, after all...