A Practical Guide to Evil

[The Glyphstone]

Heck, 'It's so crazy it'll never work!' is, in itself, a trope and a powerful one as Elan points out.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think the term really has much to do with gender these days. Certainly, none of Cat's flaws from the parts of the story I've read have anything to do with gender, and everything to do with being an overpowered web novel character in a universe that bends over backwards to make her look good. Things like "we'll just shoot the enemy during his speech. I'm sure no one ever thought of that before! I'm so smart!" Despite the fact that tactics like this explicitly shouldn't work due to the tropey rules of the setting.

To be honest, there are lots of male characters who are much worse than Cat. Cat at least does struggle for what she achieves, even if it does seem like the plot bends over backwards to make her more competent. Plus, I haven't read more than a third or so of what's written, so maybe she becomes a better character as things go along. Although admittedly the constant gushing about how awesome and powerful she is during the discussions here don't make that seem terribly likely to me.

At the end of the day, I haven't even read most of the story. I really was just poking fun.

It shouldn't, but I do see it come up more often when people are talking about female characters. So take that as you will.

The Doctor, let's be honest, is far worse (especially during Tennent's run), and he/she's been running for fifty years.

Also Goku. And Naruto. (To the detriment of their series, especially the latter, which is at it's very best when it remembers it's supposed to be a team thing and uses it's large cast properly).

Hell, people call Wolverine - and Superman - stuff like that all the time.



Hoesntly, I'd much rather have an overpowered protagonist than an underpowered one any day of the week, myself.

Ichigo is such a bad (good?) example of a Mary Sue, managing to somehow be part of every species in the setting that wasn't a filler arc. He's also the perfect example of why I'd prefer a underpowered protagonist vs an overpowered one. With an overpowered protagonist, the fights just become beatdowns. They might be dramatic and flashy, but he just destroys his opponents, once he hits the appropriate power up. There is no cleverness or tactics, just 'I am more powerful, so I'm just going to smash your face in.'

Underpowered protagonists have to earn/trick their way to victory, and yeah, sometimes their method is actually BS and shouldn't have worked. But it's a least a lot more interesting to watch. Like Kazuma from Konosuba. In a party of people who, should, be outclassing him completely and rendering him irrelevant, but due to their idiocy he has to step up and typically do the majority of the work using cheap tactics, and clever tricks.

[Anteros]

To back this up, it was also well-established prior to that point in the series that Named relying on fancy magical gear is a terrible idea that will get you killed at some point, after the Black Knight specifically pointed out 'You focused too hard on your fancy magic toy and died when somebody cleverly figured out its weakness' was a very common and powerful Story. The whole point of that scene wasn't so much to go 'look at how awesome Cat is, she killed the scary hero no problem!' as to make the audience think 'oh, yeah. Looks like Black was totally right about that whole magic armour thing. Man, what an idiot, just assuming that being a Named and having fancy toys made him invincible'.

It's not really treated as an achievement, so much as the protagonist deciding to take the shot just on the off-chance it would work, and it did work because the opponent was an idiot who was relying way too hard on in-built plot armour and forgot that one of the rules of the setting is you can't do that or the plot armour goes away. If he'd been wearing his helmet, or hadn't had fancy magical armour, or hadn't been quite so arrogant about the whole thing, he'd have lived through it and probably got a power boost in the ensuing conflict when he went off to hunt Cat down for being a dishonorable cur. Some people express shock that it worked, but by the rules of the setting as laid out it was a perfectly logical outcome to what was going on. And, don't forget, the Exiled Prince wasn't even the main hero of that plotline. 'Cocky ally of the big hero does something stupid and gets killed by the villain to show how high the stakes are' is an even stronger Trope, after all...

The only reason it worked is because Cat is the protagonist. Full stop. In any other situation he's doing exactly what he should in that scenario. Playing into his name, by standing in front of the troops and challenging the evil sub-villain. He should 100% be protected by the rules of the universe in that scenario. He just doesn't have the benefit we do of knowing that the universal rules will bend over backwards to make Cat look good. Even the other characters in the scene are incredulous that it worked. You think no one has ever tried to shoot a hero who happened to not be wearing a helmet before?

He doesn't know he's not the main hero, and he doesn't know that Cat is the main villain. His actions make perfect sense given his knowledge. Exiled hero helps overthrow evil empire before returning home to save his people is an equally common trope. He just has the misfortune of existing in a universe where "the laws of the universe change to benefit the protagonist" is viewed as a detail of the setting instead of hack writing.

Heck, 'It's so crazy it'll never work!' is, in itself, a trope and a powerful one as Elan points out.

That trope only really applies when a plan is actually crazy and carries some sort of risk for the person executing it. Shooting someone to death by surprise hardly qualifies.

It shouldn't, but I do see it come up more often when people are talking about female characters. So take that as you will.



Ichigo is such a bad (good?) example of a Mary Sue, managing to somehow be part of every species in the setting that wasn't a filler arc. He's also the perfect example of why I'd prefer a underpowered protagonist vs an overpowered one. With an overpowered protagonist, the fights just become beatdowns. They might be dramatic and flashy, but he just destroys his opponents, once he hits the appropriate power up. There is no cleverness or tactics, just 'I am not more powerful, so I'm just going to smash your face in.'

Underpowered protagonists have to earn/trick their way to victory, and yeah, sometimes their method is actually BS and shouldn't have worked. But it's a least a lot more interesting to watch. Like Kazuma from Konosuba. In a party of people who, should, be outclassing him completely and rendering him irrelevant, but due to their idiocy he has to step up and typically do the majority of the work using cheap tactics, and clever tricks.

I also enjoy underpowered protagonists. Give me a story about a character overcoming adversity with wits any day over a story where they just get arbitrarily stronger as the plot demands.

[Forum Explorer]

The only reason it worked is because Cat is the protagonist. Full stop. In any other situation he's doing exactly what he should in that scenario. Playing into his name, by standing in front of the troops and challenging the evil sub-villain. He should 100% be protected by the rules of the universe in that scenario. He just doesn't have the benefit we do of knowing that the universal rules will bend over backwards to make Cat look good. Even the other characters in the scene are incredulous that it worked. You think no one has ever tried to shoot a hero who happened to not be wearing a helmet before?

He doesn't know he's not the main hero, and he doesn't know that Cat is the main villain. His actions make perfect sense given his knowledge. Exiled hero helps overthrow evil empire before returning home to save his people is an equally common trope. He just has the misfortune of existing in a universe where "the laws of the universe change to benefit the protagonist" is viewed as a detail of the setting instead of hack writing.

Actually yeah, I can totally believe that other characters not named Black have literally never tried that before. It's why Black is so scary, and he passed that on to Cat. He doesn't play by the rules of the story. Everyone is surprised because they weren't able to even think of it, because the narrative said the hero could do that. So they didn't even try to shoot before Black made his reforms.

He does know two things; Cat's in a 3-fold fight with the Lone Swordsman at the time, and the Lone Swordsman specifically warned him not to underestimate Cat and not to get cocky. Which he ignored.

[Tyndmyr]

The other thing is that the story puts a thumb on the scales, but doesn't hard counter blind stupidity. We're reminded time and again that great named people have been brought down by attempting to fight entire armies. Sure, they are ludicrously favored in each individual matchup, but roll enough dice, and the universe eventually misses one.

This is basically how Cat got him shot. The rest of the arrows did miss, after all. If he'd played smart, his hero-shield would have definitely let him survive that, but the combination of arrogance and a loooot of arrows meant one leaked through.

Now, in fairness, Cat definitely does have some protagonist edge. She gets lucky sometimes. However, it's not so easy or painless as to reach Mary Sue levels. The situations she gets herself in still feel like legitimate challenges. Mostly. Under winter, she got pretty crazy, but that's mostly past now.

[Rynjin]

The only reason it worked is because Cat is the protagonist. Full stop. In any other situation he's doing exactly what he should in that scenario. Playing into his name, by standing in front of the troops and challenging the evil sub-villain. He should 100% be protected by the rules of the universe in that scenario. He just doesn't have the benefit we do of knowing that the universal rules will bend over backwards to make Cat look good. Even the other characters in the scene are incredulous that it worked. You think no one has ever tried to shoot a hero who happened to not be wearing a helmet before?

He doesn't know he's not the main hero, and he doesn't know that Cat is the main villain. His actions make perfect sense given his knowledge. Exiled hero helps overthrow evil empire before returning home to save his people is an equally common trope. He just has the misfortune of existing in a universe where "the laws of the universe change to benefit the protagonist" is viewed as a detail of the setting instead of hack writing.

Story protections are not absolute. Pivots can be changed or averted, and stories can be forced onto different tracks. They are not a substitute for basic common sense unless you go so deep down the rabbit hole you're basically a puppet to your chosen deities (like the Grey Pilgrim or the Tyrant of Helike) and you live and die based on your proficiency with story-fu, and even then you need to really go out of your way to arrange well-trod stories with a lot of weight to them and (most importantly) survive to the point that your own Name has so much weight behind it that you become the focal point of entire nations' fates.

Essentially, yes, the Exiled Prince should have known he was not the main character, because he was so new to his Name. He had no victories or accolades to fall back on, and no invincible story behind him to assure his victory. He was not one of the "old monsters" like the Pilgrim or Saint of Swords who can just walk onto a battlefield and big **** anything that crosses their path with superior firepower and surety that they cannot lose to some young upstart. He's just some scrub that needs to earn his first few victories to snowball that weight.

Moreover the Exiled Prince is NOT a name that plays into that trope to begin with. If he was one of the later heroes like one of the Champion line, or something like "Famed Duelist" or "Shining Knight" or similar? Sure. A challenge on an open field plays into the strengths of your name and has a stronger chance of working out in your favor. But when you're not only not playing into the strengths of your name (he didn't even seem to have any Aspects) but setting up a narrative where you're doing something all your allies tell you is stupid (setting up a "death of the honorable/arrogant fool" story) you're already treading on thin ice.

Cat meanwhile had a confluence of multiple stories propelling her forward. She caused the war to break out in the first place; she is narratively unlikely to be killed ignominiously in her first major conflict. Combined with her Rule of Three narrative with the Lone Swordsman ensuring that not only won't she die, she won't LOSE because she has to get to her pre-ordained final conflict with the man, there was no chance in-universe and out that she would lose that battle.

The Exiled Prince had no way of knowing the latter, but should have hedged his bets because of the former points. Like Cat herself does; in the most recent chapter she still references back to that moment and makes sure she's properly armored, with a helmet before riding into battle, because ironic comeuppances are part of the risks of being a Villain.

And this is not something that only favors Cat. She has it used against her on numerous occasions, sometimes forcing losses where otherwise she might have won, or forcing her into situations where her only options are "lose or die" because of the narrative weight set up against her. Hell, her aforementioned conflict with the Lone Swordsman required her to die because she was fated to lose their sword fight no matter how hard she tried or how many tricks she threw at him, and only extensive planning beforehand made it a temporary death instead of a permanent one. The Pilgrim has outmaneuvered her at every turn, as have the Dead King and I quite expect the Tyrant of Helike will at least once more before everything is done. Story-fu is a double-edged sword because it can still lead to pyrrhic victories like the Doom of Liesse (sure you won the war, but there were 100k civilian casualties you really wanted to avoid) or her recent spat with the Drow.

[Anteros]

It turns out that arguing with fans of something on a fan thread about that thing isn't particularly productive. Who knew? I'm just going to accept that you all disagree with me, and that's ok.

[Rynjin]

It turns out that arguing with fans of something on a fan thread about that thing isn't particularly productive. Who knew? I'm just going to accept that you all disagree with me, and that's ok.

It's also a baffling idea to try and argue overall story structure of a piece of very longform entertainment with people who've read the entirety of currently published work when you stopped less than 20% into the story.

[Anteros]

It's also a baffling idea to try and argue overall story structure of a piece of very longform entertainment with people who've read the entirety of currently published work when you stopped less than 20% into the story.

That might be why I was only talking about the parts of the story I'd read perhaps?

[Excession]

The only reason it worked is because Cat is the protagonist.

I don't see it like that. I think the reason he died, and maybe part of the reason why the Legions of Terror are so successful in general is that they force a different genre. The Prince thought he was the protagonist of heroic epic, all glorious charges and victorious battles. A princess might be involved at some point. But it was actually a gritty military fantasy, and in gritty war stories you keep your head down and you keep your blessed helmet on. See for example the Starship Troopers movie, or All Quiet on the Western Front.

There's also the problem that the Prince was on the wrong side of the story, hero or villain, as the magically powered invader of Callow. That one keeps coming up as well. Role matters a lot more than hero vs. villain.

[Calemyr]

I think, so far, this has all been good-natured discussion, rather than all-out argument. You'll note that even fans of the story aren't in agreement on the matter. The catch is that this is a story built on the existence and exploitation of narrative tropes, so calling one (especially a trope as maligned as the Mary Sue) out is akin to throwing a tennis ball into a dog park.

But it's all in good fun, yeah?

[Anteros]

I think, so far, this has all been good-natured discussion, rather than all-out argument. You'll note that even fans of the story aren't in agreement on the matter. The catch is that this is a story built on the existence and exploitation of narrative tropes, so calling one (especially a trope as maligned as the Mary Sue) out is akin to throwing a tennis ball into a dog park.

But it's all in good fun, yeah?

Yeah, I knew what reaction I would get when I said it. To be fair, I really do believe that Cat pushes the line between protagonist and Mary Sue. At least for the parts of the story I read, which is why I stopped reading. A lot of beloved characters push that line though. I obviously know people on this thread don't agree with me about most of my criticisms which is why I hardly ever chime in here.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, I knew what reaction I would get when I said it. To be fair, I really do believe that Cat pushes the line between protagonist and Mary Sue. At least for the parts of the story I read, which is why I stopped reading. A lot of beloved characters push that line though. I obviously know people on this thread don't agree with me about most of my criticisms which is why I hardly ever chime in here.

It sounds like you didn't make it past book 2.

But now I'm curious. What is your baseline for Mary Sue? Feel free to use example of characters you feel are without doubt Mary Sues. I think my baseline would be Ichigo.

[Anteros]

It sounds like you didn't make it past book 2.

But now I'm curious. What is your baseline for Mary Sue? Feel free to use example of characters you feel are without doubt Mary Sues. I think my baseline would be Ichigo.

Ok. I'm going to pick examples I think everyone knows and that people won't argue with though so we don't get too far off topic, and I'm just going to stay away from female examples entirely because I know someone will come along and derail the entire discussion into a sexism topic.

Basically any character without flaws, or whose flaws are completely ignored by the narrative. It's almost cheating to use anime characters as an example because it's so common, but Ichigo definitely qualifies along with Kirito, Naruto, and most others. Sure, they're "hotheaded" or whatever, but it never actually comes back to bite them in any meaningful way. I wouldn't consider Goku a Sue because despite all his power he does have flaws that regularly endanger others, and he is often called out for it. Anakin isn't a Sue despite common accusations due to the fact that his idiocy gets himself crippled and his wife killed. A flaw only counts if it actually has some sort of effect on the story. Cat walking with a limp for example isn't a flaw because she can just ignore it any time it's inconvenient.

The biggest indicator of a Sue to me is when it feels like the writer doesn't recognize their flaws and wants the reader to agree how awesome a character is. The best example I can give in comparison to Cat would be Richard Rahl. A character who is objectively an awful person, but who is always depicted by the story in a positive light. Obviously I'm not saying that Cat is as poorly written as Rahl, but there are comparisons to be made. Her entire ideology is based on the idea of being evil, but not as bad as other evil people, and no one ever meaningfully calls her on it. I always got the feeling that the author wants his readers to buy into Cat's reasoning for her actions as necessary and I simply don't buy it at all.

[Sapphire Guard]

The other question is that the helmetless protagonist is a film convention, so that the audience can identify the lead character. How did it become a known thing in a universe where films don't happen? The in universe experiences would either be stories told, which wouldn't really mention helmet removing, or direct experience of battle, in which helmet removing isn't a thing.

(Disclaimer: I still haven't read beyond the first duels re squires, I'm just following the conversation.)

[Forum Explorer]

Ok. I'm going to pick examples I think everyone knows and that people won't argue with though so we don't get too far off topic, and I'm just going to stay away from female examples entirely because I know someone will come along and derail the entire discussion into a sexism topic.

Basically any character without flaws, or whose flaws are completely ignored by the narrative. It's almost cheating to use anime characters as an example because it's so common, but Ichigo definitely qualifies along with Kirito, Naruto, and most others. Sure, they're "hotheaded" or whatever, but it never actually comes back to bite them in any meaningful way. I wouldn't consider Goku a Sue because despite all his power he does have flaws that regularly endanger others, and he is often called out for it. Anakin isn't a Sue despite common accusations due to the fact that his idiocy gets himself crippled and his wife killed. A flaw only counts if it actually has some sort of effect on the story. Cat walking with a limp for example isn't a flaw because she can just ignore it any time it's inconvenient.

The biggest indicator of a Sue to me is when it feels like the writer doesn't recognize their flaws and wants the reader to agree how awesome a character is. The best example I can give in comparison to Cat would be Richard Rahl. A character who is objectively an awful person, but who is always depicted by the story in a positive light. Obviously I'm not saying that Cat is as poorly written as Rahl, but there are comparisons to be made. Her entire ideology is based on the idea of being evil, but not as bad as other evil people, and no one ever meaningfully calls her on it. I always got the feeling that the author wants his readers to buy into Cat's reasoning for her actions as necessary and I simply don't buy it at all.

That's a fair description of a Mary Sue I suppose.


I would disagree it applies to Cat in any way shape or form, as she is very much reaping the consequences of her actions throughout books 3, 4, and 5. It's as if you stopped watching Anakin's story right after he killed all the children. You don't see how his flaws mattered so he'd come off as Sueish.

[Calemyr]

To be honest, Cat reminds me of my time DMing a Pathfinder campaign a few years back. While I like to think I was pretty good at it, I admit I had a weakness: I couldn't say no to an absurd plan. I wasn't overly permissive, I think, but I let audacious and insane strategies pay off far more often than I really should have, as long as it was original. It became a running joke in the campaign - if I was smiling, they knew they were in trouble. When I was grinning, however, they knew they'd suggested a tactic that qualified as "crazy enough to work" and they were confident they were going to win, odds be damned. I had a lot of fun with that game, just because of the brazen creativity the players repeatedly displayed.

As for Anteros' argument, I can see it for the first two books, where it's black (Praes) against gray (Cat) against gray (William). To that point she doesn't deal with any actual Good guys (William may be a hero, but he's not heroic - few of them actually are), much less any opposition white enough to call her out. Ultimately she pays for her gray stance by making enemies of both sides, and it costs her a number of good friends and some pretty devastating pyrrhic victories. The consequences of mistakes she makes in the early books take a long time to settle in as lessons, whereas early on she resents them as somehow unjust punishments. But, then, she starts the story as a fifteen year old and is currently in her early twenties. She acts like a kid early on because she was a kid and approached things from a childish mentality.

I've been rereading the earlier books in the last day or so and I have to admit, taken as a separate entity whole unto itself, the argument works. Cat is handed opportunities, prestige, and training beyond her station for no personal merit beyond having the mentality Black wanted in a Squire, the burning desire and belief she would fix things if she had the power. Her early victories, even the costly ones, aren't all too costly, and it's telling when a matter of months take you from an orphanage to standing before a Dread Empress and having a cordial conversation. If you were to stop the story before First Liesse, or possibly just after, there really isn't a lot to differentiate her from a Mary Sue. But the first two books aren't a whole, they're the origin story - and origin stories rarely avoid the markers of a Mary Sue. The story since then has matured beyond those training wheels, and that's a large part of the disconnect, I feel. Anteros, only seeing the beginning of the story, legitimately sees a Mary Sue. Most of us, on the other hand, have read further in and our current perception of her has evolved beyond that to the point that we need to reminded she wasn't always the badass who has to earn her victories. Or go Super Faeyin.

[Anteros]

That's fair. I've already admitted several times that my perspective may be skewed by the fact that I stopped reading. The thing is, if a series is bad (to me) for the first 30% or so, I think it's reasonable to assume it will be bad throughout. If you guys say it gets better maybe I'll pick it back up one day.

[Aotrs Commander]

Or go Super Faeyin.

Dammit, that's the best mental image I've had all day.

...

Is it wrong that I really, really, want to see that be a proper thing now?

Prefereably during fighting the Saint of Swords...?

[Forum Explorer]

That's fair. I've already admitted several times that my perspective may be skewed by the fact that I stopped reading. The thing is, if a series is bad (to me) for the first 30% or so, I think it's reasonable to assume it will be bad throughout. If you guys say it gets better maybe I'll pick it back up one day.

I don't know why (or where) you stopped reading, so I can't say if it actually gets better. For me, it helps that I read quickly, and there the early books are fast paced. So I build momentum to get past any bad parts, and I go fast enough to get to the good stuff.

But Game of Thrones is a good example of when this doesn't work. I stopped reading in because I didn't enjoy the last book I read, and the latest book hadn't come out yet. So momentum was lost, and now I won't read Game of Thrones again.

[Calemyr]

That's fair. I've already admitted several times that my perspective may be skewed by the fact that I stopped reading. The thing is, if a series is bad (to me) for the first 30% or so, I think it's reasonable to assume it will be bad throughout. If you guys say it gets better maybe I'll pick it back up one day.

Getting better is a tricky statement. The story evolves and takes on new angles in different arcs, and not all of them will appeal to everyone. You may note there's a bit of a debate about Winter vs Night going on. This is because Cat's source of power changes a couple of times over the story so far and the story flows differently for each.

If your breaking point was the death of the Shining Prince, then the statement becomes trickier. That was, I believe, meant to be a comical scene - Cat just wanted to give the prince the finger, and everyone on both sides is stuck gaping in dumbstruck amazement at the absurd chain of events that followed. Kinda like the death of Marvin in the movie Pulp Fiction, it's just so random and stupid that all you can do is laugh at it. The kind of fluke event you retell over beers for years to come. "One in a million shot, I tell ya. You should have seen their faces! Ours, too, I wager!"

See, Cat continues to go for the audacious plays, usually because she doesn't have any other options at hand. Often times they work, but rarely without consequences and painful ones at that. I don't know how much further than Nauk's potshot you got, so I don't want to get into too much detail, but from that point on she doesn't really get many wins that don't cost her in some way. Even in that fight a friend of hers is killed in the battle, the first friend she'd lost, really.

Cat does mature. She does start paying for her victories with things that matter to her. She also achieves some incredible feats by virtue of audacity and a little cunning. So if your complaint is that she's given too much too easily, it certainly improves. If it's just that she always wins, it improves somewhat. If it's that her rise to glory was too meteoric? Yeah, that's not really going to change. Take that for what you will.

Dammit, that's the best mental image I've had all day.

...

Is it wrong that I really, really, want to see that be a proper thing now?

Prefereably during fighting the Saint of Swords...?

I can see it now. A dark skinned lass in dull plate, with icy blue eyes and icicles for hair, surrounded by cold so intense the moisture in the air begins to freeze. Five minutes later the battlefield is under ten feet of water and zombies are ripping apart her foes. It is, however, a really long five minutes.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Book 5 Chapter 27

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The more I see of Tariq, the more I find him utterly repugant.

Now he's not only offending me on the Good/Evil axis, but on the Lawful/Chaos one as well.

"I'll break any agreements I make any time I feel like if I can make up a justification."

Little piece of excrement.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Book 5 Chapter 27

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The more I see of Tariq, the more I find him utterly repugant.

Now he's not only offending me on the Good/Evil axis, but on the Lawful/Chaos one as well.

"I'll break any agreements I make any time I feel like if I can make up a justification."

Little piece of excrement.

Spoiler: Book 5, Chapter 27

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Gotta agree with you, there. It's pretty amazing that this story took what is essentially Gandalf and turned him into a decidedly despicable antagonist.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Book 5 Chapter 27

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The more I see of Tariq, the more I find him utterly repugant.

Now he's not only offending me on the Good/Evil axis, but on the Lawful/Chaos one as well.

"I'll break any agreements I make any time I feel like if I can make up a justification."

Little piece of excrement.

Spoiler: Book5 Ch 27

Show

Eh, it doesn't really bother me that much. I mean the guy basically said he was willing to sacrifice a nation to ensure the Grand Alliance held firm, and later created a plague to wipe out a town of people he should be protecting.

What's a few lies in the face of that?


On a different note, Rumera is simply awesome. Putting the Secret of the Scathing Retort to good use.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: last chapter

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You should not give your word if you dont intend to keep it.

But to be fair, if i had to chose between sitting on my thumbs, or stopping a country from being eaten by zombies..
Well.. lets just say my thumbs would not remain warm.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: last chapter

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You should not give your word if you dont intend to keep it.

But to be fair, if i had to chose between sitting on my thumbs, or stopping a country from being eaten by zombies..
Well.. lets just say my thumbs would not remain warm.

Spoiler: Ch 27

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Agreed. But I'd also say you shouldn't sacrifice citizens if you want to be a good person, nor should you be willing to sacrifice a foreign nation to war.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Chap 27

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Sp.. in other words.. there is enough to blame GP for, without also making stuff up? :P

Because after the chapters we got of how the hidden horror has 100 % earned that name,
then i think letting your personal honor come second to stopping that is actually the heroic thing.

Anyway, i also think its unfair to blame him for said war. He did not have anything to do with starting it.
Thats just politics. He just didnt want Cat to turn into the Dead King 2.0, and that i think is also quite fair.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Chap 27

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Sp.. in other words.. there is enough to blame GP for, without also making stuff up? :P

Because after the chapters we got of how the hidden horror has 100 % earned that name,
then i think letting your personal honor come second to stopping that is actually the heroic thing.

Anyway, i also think its unfair to blame him for said war. He did not have anything to do with starting it.
Thats just politics. He just didnt want Cat to turn into the Dead King 2.0, and that i think is also quite fair.

Spoiler: Chapter 27

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That's a fair point. I was more thinking along the lines that after someone unleashes a bioweapon, I'm not going to be disappointed if they lie.


For the war itself? Nah, he doesn't get any blame for that. But Cat offered him a genuine peace treaty, and was even willing to put her life on the line for its success and he spurned her offer because the treaty would cause the Grand Alliance to eventually fall apart.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Chapter 27

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GP is in a pretty awkward position, because Cat is so unpredictable. Cat is willing and able to do most anything, from throwing open the gates of the Keter (with relatively conservative restrictions in place) to attempting to outright kill a former ally to keep the Dead King from getting too long a leash, to co-opting an ancient race of murderers with the intent of driving back the dead. The idea that Cat could on a dime go from suing for a peace accord to fulfilling the foreshadowing of the Graveyard of Princes is a very realistic one.

Of course, there's a fundamental problem in that Tariq keeps thinking in terms of Above and Below and expects Cat to do the same, while she's mostly concerned with the Here and Now. Cat can easily be well disposed to opponents, even hostile ones, that function on good faith. She and Malanza are not bowling buddies, for instance, but the Aequitian princess is the only one Cat trusts to give her an honest assessment of the situation.

Spoiler: Chapter 28

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And so Cat declares her intention to drag Akua into the gray, into that perspective where people are people rather than things or roles in a story. A redemption, of sorts. Perhaps because she's already dead she may have already paid the price for redemption.

I do find it odd, though. Wasn't Akua more than subtly declaring a desire for redemption during the struggle with Sve Nok? Why is she resisting it now?

[druid91]

Spoiler: Chapter 27

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GP is in a pretty awkward position, because Cat is so unpredictable. Cat is willing and able to do most anything, from throwing open the gates of the Keter (with relatively conservative restrictions in place) to attempting to outright kill a former ally to keep the Dead King from getting too long a leash, to co-opting an ancient race of murderers with the intent of driving back the dead. The idea that Cat could on a dime go from suing for a peace accord to fulfilling the foreshadowing of the Graveyard of Princes is a very realistic one.

Of course, there's a fundamental problem in that Tariq keeps thinking in terms of Above and Below and expects Cat to do the same, while she's mostly concerned with the Here and Now. Cat can easily be well disposed to opponents, even hostile ones, that function on good faith. She and Malanza are not bowling buddies, for instance, but the Aequitian princess is the only one Cat trusts to give her an honest assessment of the situation.

Spoiler: Chapter 28

Show

And so Cat declares her intention to drag Akua into the gray, into that perspective where people are people rather than things or roles in a story. A redemption, of sorts. Perhaps because she's already dead she may have already paid the price for redemption.

I do find it odd, though. Wasn't Akua more than subtly declaring a desire for redemption during the struggle with Sve Nok? Why is she resisting it now?

Spoiler: Chapter 28

Show

The difference being that Akua was declaring the desire to act out the part of the hero without ever changing the way she felt. That is, walking the walk, talking the talk, but not really getting it. Helping people because 'That's part of playing the hero' rather than helping people because it hurts to fail them. Cat is saying she wants to bring Akua to that latter point. Where she isn't just faking it, but actually feels that way.