A Practical Guide to Evil

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Chapter 29

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Good grief. "Retrospect" is a good name for this chapter. What a curious concept to realize that the two most powerful heroes on the continent have been trying to kill you and failing. How much stranger to realize that they actually have good reason to try - that you could have easily become a danger to rival the Dead King, and now, despite being technically weaker, you're no less a threat. Far from it, in fact, as you now have the potential to rival Dread Empress Triumphant, the woman who just about broke the continent by playing the Game better than anyone before her or since. That's really gotta be a sobering moment when a revelation like that punches you in the gut. Like the moment Oppenheimer got his first glance at the true power of a nuclear weapon.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Chapter 29

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Good grief. "Retrospect" is a good name for this chapter. What a curious concept to realize that the two most powerful heroes on the continent have been trying to kill you and failing. How much stranger to realize that they actually have good reason to try - that you could have easily become a danger to rival the Dead King, and now, despite being technically weaker, you're no less a threat. Far from it, in fact, as you now have the potential to rival Dread Empress Triumphant, the woman who just about broke the continent by playing the Game better than anyone before her or since. That's really gotta be a sobering moment when a revelation like that punches you in the gut. Like the moment Oppenheimer got his first glance at the true power of a nuclear weapon.

Spoiler: Book 5 chapter 29

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Eh, didn't find it that surprising, really, since the reason they were all so crap-scared of Black was he wouldn't play the game and he was winning. That Cat is following suit is not that shocking.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Book 5 chapter 29

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Eh, didn't find it that surprising, really, since the reason they were all so crap-scared of Black was he wouldn't play the game and he was winning. That Cat is following suit is not that shocking.

Spoiler: Chapter 29

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Well, yes. Not a surprise to me, as the reader. I'm talking about as Cat. She still sees herself as the scrappy underdog, not legitimately the scariest villain on the continent. The revelation punches her in the gut, not the audience, and that distinction is why my gut is aching... 'Cuz I'm like that.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes; well, our dear Cat is a Bit Of A Silly at times, bless 'er, isn't she?

[Tvtyrant]

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I think the twist none of the sides are seeing is that Masego is the actual next Dead King. He is clearly trying to do exactly what they are all scared Cat would do; undergo apothesis and punch a permanent hole between arcadia and reality.

[Aotrs Commander]

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I think the twist none of the sides are seeing is that Masego is the actual next Dead King. He is clearly trying to do exactly what they are all scared Cat would do; undergo apothesis and punch a permanent hole between arcadia and reality.

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Or perhaps that's merely incidental to him intending to punch a permenant whole in Above, along with whatever dimensions unfortunately get in the way.

If that's the case, good luck to him, I say.

[Tvtyrant]

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Or perhaps that's merely incidental to him intending to punch a permenant whole in Above, along with whatever dimensions unfortunately get in the way.

If that's the case, good luck to him, I say.

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Making a permanent hole from heaven to hell would be a hilariously villainous way of getting revenge.

I'm basing my theory on the conversations between Masego and his fathers. He saw nothing wrong with Fae-Cat, and was deliberatly immitating the Dead King based on memories. Using Arcadia instead of Hell makes perfect sense, and the rift-gun instead of mass human sacrifice.

[Calemyr]

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Making a permanent hole from heaven to hell would be a hilariously villainous way of getting revenge.

I'm basing my theory on the conversations between Masego and his fathers. He saw nothing wrong with Fae-Cat, and was deliberatly immitating the Dead King based on memories. Using Arcadia instead of Hell makes perfect sense, and the rift-gun instead of mass human sacrifice.

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The wording they use suggests to me an alternative option. He might be trying to rebuild his childhood home. After all, he grew up in a subplane of Arcadia and it was clearly a happy part of his life (say what you like about an archvillain and an incubus, they both adored their baby boy). Strikes me as a valid reaction to losing both of his fathers in one go to try to return to one place he was happy.

Revenge is definitely a plausible motivation, but it's not one I really want for Masego. He's a strange character - with a kind of perverted innocence of a child, the kind that doesn't want to do harm but doesn't see anything wrong with vivisecting anything that catches his interest. Or go to any lengths to protect the people that matter to him. There isn't really any malice to Masego, for the most part, in a cast of characters (Good and Evil) that are brimming with it. I would really rather see him break the world trying to retreat to a safe place than see him actually want to hurt anyone.

[lord_khaine]

Good grief. "Retrospect" is a good name for this chapter. What a curious concept to realize that the two most powerful heroes on the continent have been trying to kill you and failing.

I dont know if its entirely true. Or an accurately descriptive way of putting it.
Saint did deliver Cat her first solid trashing after she got the Fae Body. And Gray pushing her into the path of a redemption story that would likely have killed her if it wasnt spotted in time.

Eh, didn't find it that surprising, really, since the reason they were all so crap-scared of Black was he wouldn't play the game and he was winning. That Cat is following suit is not that shocking.

I think your really overdoing how much winning black were doing. Or that they were scared.
When in reality it was the other way around. It was Black who directly warned against the danger of provoking heavens old monsters,
at the end of the thing with all the wights. He were the one scared of The Gray Pilgrim.
(except he wasnt scared, thats an emotion. But he clearly saw it as to risky)

The wording they use suggests to me an alternative option. He might be trying to rebuild his childhood home. After all, he grew up in a subplane of Arcadia and it was clearly a happy part of his life (say what you like about an archvillain and an incubus, they both adored their baby boy). Strikes me as a valid reaction to losing both of his fathers in one go to try to return to one place he was happy.

Revenge is definitely a plausible motivation, but it's not one I really want for Masego. He's a strange character - with a kind of perverted innocence of a child, the kind that doesn't want to do harm but doesn't see anything wrong with vivisecting anything that catches his interest. Or go to any lengths to protect the people that matter to him. There isn't really any malice to Masego, for the most part, in a cast of characters (Good and Evil) that are brimming with it. I would really rather see him break the world trying to retreat to a safe place than see him actually want to hurt anyone.

Sorry.. but i think thats just wishful thinking. Masego isnt emotionel like that. Wanting to return to your childhood home does not match with striving for Apothesis.
Thats clinging to what makes you human, instead of trying to cut those bits off like Masego wants to.

Not certain i would call it any sort of innocence either. Yes im uncertain about if he has displayed any sort of real malice before this.
But thats more like, he has not cared enough about anyone or anything outside his minimal circle of friends and family.

[Calemyr]

I dont know if its entirely true. Or an accurately descriptive way of putting it.
Saint did deliver Cat her first solid trashing after she got the Fae Body. And Gray pushing her into the path of a redemption story that would likely have killed her if it wasnt spotted in time.

That's rather the point. The two most powerful heroes on the continent have tried to kill her. Actively, intentionally, with effort, tried. She's still alive. Even when they outmaneuver her or overpower her, she still survives. These aren't people prone to failure, and both have. They might succeed next time, but that still doesn't change the fact that both of them have already failed. Multiple times. That is an achievement worthy of note.

Sorry.. but i think thats just wishful thinking. Masego isnt emotionel like that. Wanting to return to your childhood home does not match with striving for Apothesis.
Thats clinging to what makes you human, instead of trying to cut those bits off like Masego wants to.

Not certain i would call it any sort of innocence either. Yes im uncertain about if he has displayed any sort of real malice before this.
But thats more like, he has not cared enough about anyone or anything outside his minimal circle of friends and family.

Apotheosis I could understand. Losing everything, with no compass to guide him, Masego goes all in on the one thing he truly believes in. Certainly a viable path. I'm just hoping revenge isn't the motivation. I feel he's far better served as a tragic villain than a vengeful one.

Masego's fathers, however, are the one thing Masego is truly emotional about. He didn't melt down in Acadia because the Dead King is a bad dude who did bad things. He did it because he saw first hand that his father lied to him - and that his other father very likely put him up to it.

[druid91]

I think your really overdoing how much winning black were doing. Or that they were scared.
When in reality it was the other way around. It was Black who directly warned against the danger of provoking heavens old monsters,
at the end of the thing with all the wights. He were the one scared of The Gray Pilgrim.
(except he wasnt scared, thats an emotion. But he clearly saw it as to risky)

That's the thing. Black was worried about giving them the story weight of being the old monsters of good. As demonstrated a few chapters ago, being the big good guy doesn't help if there's no story backing you up. As demonstrated by the woman who's fought armies alone, and cut reality apart nearly dying like a chump at the hands of one kinda-skilled nameless guy.

And that is the very thing that made Black a threat, and what makes CAT a threat. Both of them play Story-fu like it's second nature. Grasping narratives as though it were as natural as breath.

And once the story is understood. The story can be averted. Derailed. And once there's no story... there's only the innate abilities on the table. And Heroic abilities, it seems, far more than villainous abilities rely on their role in stories to work.

[lord_khaine]

That's rather the point. The two most powerful heroes on the continent have tried to kill her. Actively, intentionally, with effort, tried. She's still alive. Even when they outmaneuver her or overpower her, she still survives. These aren't people prone to failure, and both have. They might succeed next time, but that still doesn't change the fact that both of them have already failed. Multiple times. That is an achievement worthy of note.

Im not going to call the kind of trashing Saint gave her failure in any way. It was a rather clear victory.
And Pilgrim quite clearly were cautious of pushing her to far, because it could result in the apothis scenario he were trying to prevent.

Apotheosis I could understand. Losing everything, with no compass to guide him, Masego goes all in on the one thing he truly believes in. Certainly a viable path. I'm just hoping revenge isn't the motivation. I feel he's far better served as a tragic villain than a vengeful one.

Masego's fathers, however, are the one thing Masego is truly emotional about. He didn't melt down in Acadia because the Dead King is a bad dude who did bad things. He did it because he saw first hand that his father lied to him - and that his other father very likely put him up to it.

Well.. it was quite a while since Masego used his dads as compas for anything. We saw directly how he had grown into an independent adult when they had their last meeting.
And it is just that. Apothesis is the one thing he truely believes in. It is his overaching quest. And it just so happens it would also be a great stepping stone to get revenge at the same time.
Because part of what upset him, were that his father lied about the thing he cared most over.

That's the thing. Black was worried about giving them the story weight of being the old monsters of good. As demonstrated a few chapters ago, being the big good guy doesn't help if there's no story backing you up. As demonstrated by the woman who's fought armies alone, and cut reality apart nearly dying like a chump at the hands of one kinda-skilled nameless guy.

And that is the very thing that made Black a threat, and what makes CAT a threat. Both of them play Story-fu like it's second nature. Grasping narratives as though it were as natural as breath.

And once the story is understood. The story can be averted. Derailed. And once there's no story... there's only the innate abilities on the table. And Heroic abilities, it seems, far more than villainous abilities rely on their role in stories to work.

No it was not story weight he worried about, it was them directly comming out of retirement/reserve.
Black had taken over another country, and kept it subjogated by cruelty and violence. Do you really think that someone as adept at Pilgrim could not find the story he needed there?

Its also important to notice here, that firstly Saint directly had a story working -against- her, from being in the wrong and attacking under a peace flag.
And secondly, that Cat only realised to late that it was her being played in that exchange, with Pilgrim now as she put it "has a story knife at her throat".
She is surprisingly adept at twisting narative to suit herself. But she isnt so good that it would be a cause for actual fear.

[druid91]

No it was not story weight he worried about, it was them directly comming out of retirement/reserve.
Black had taken over another country, and kept it subjogated by cruelty and violence. Do you really think that someone as adept at Pilgrim could not find the story he needed there?

Its also important to notice here, that firstly Saint directly had a story working -against- her, from being in the wrong and attacking under a peace flag.
And secondly, that Cat only realised to late that it was her being played in that exchange, with Pilgrim now as she put it "has a story knife at her throat".
She is surprisingly adept at twisting narative to suit herself. But she isnt so good that it would be a cause for actual fear.

No, it was very clearly the story weight. Otherwise his plan to march into Procer, knowing those hero's are there, is idiotic.

Black had taken over another country, and was percieved very clearly as the 'good guy' of the evil rulers in that he was harsh but fair.

Also, Both Pilgrim and the Saint have verbally expressed concern over Cats ability to twist stories in such a way that she happily takes the role of a hero as often as she does a villain.

And again, it wasn't so much that she was being played as it was the Pilgrim using an unexpected turn to initiate a 'potential' three parter.

[Calemyr]

Im not going to call the kind of trashing Saint gave her failure in any way. It was a rather clear victory.
And Pilgrim quite clearly were cautious of pushing her to far, because it could result in the apothis scenario he were trying to prevent.

Cat is still alive. That's all the failure that matters. Saint won the fight, absolutely, but failed to seal the deal. Pilgrim tried to box clever because of the damage a Queen of Moonless Nights could pose, but his efforts to use story-fu to kill her or neutralize her did neither. They bested her at almost every turn, but never achieved the one thing they needed: the death of Catherine Foundling. Only one person has achieved that so far, and even that didn't slow her down more than a few hours.

In fact, she poses a more significant threat now, as Cat is beginning to realize. The Moonless Queen would have been an ungodly terror to put down, but, make no mistake, she would have been put down. Oh, it would have been a titanic struggle, a story for the ages, but there was no way Above or Below a Moonless Queen would win that story. This Cat, however? She has all the potential resources of Triumphant and a complicated morality that keeps her from falling into most fatal Villain patterns. For all her newfound weakness and mortality, this Cat could win. That's what's terrifying about her: she's got the "worst" traits of Black and Triumphant in a single package, combined with a desire to make things better that has miraculously gone mostly uncorrupted despite following a Villainous path.

Well.. it was quite a while since Masego used his dads as compas for anything. We saw directly how he had grown into an independent adult when they had their last meeting.
And it is just that. Apothesis is the one thing he truely believes in. It is his overaching quest. And it just so happens it would also be a great stepping stone to get revenge at the same time.
Because part of what upset him, were that his father lied about the thing he cared most over.

True, he's been relying on Cat's compass since joining up, which is a comical concept in itself. But right now he's without Cat and without his fathers and very likely suffering pain on a level he never has before (you have to love something for its loss to hurt that much, and he doesn't love much of anything). Right now, he's got a lot of pain he's not equipped to handle and no compass at all.

Also, you're right about apotheosis being the most important thing to him, but it's worth noting it's not just any apotheosis. It is apotheosis born of knowledge he craves. To become a god by learning the rules, rather than ignoring them. Cat's flirting with godhood before Sve Nok would not have appealed to him. In fact, the whole becoming a god thing isn't the key part of his goal - it's mastering the rules so hard that divinity isn't even a big deal anymore. This does nothing to invalidate your argument, but I feel it's interesting enough to point out.

[lord_khaine]

No, it was very clearly the story weight. Otherwise his plan to march into Procer, knowing those hero's are there, is idiotic.

Black had taken over another country, and was percieved very clearly as the 'good guy' of the evil rulers in that he was harsh but fair.

No your wrong on that bit. Also on the relevance of him marching into Procer.
Because by then it was already to late, heroes and the crusade were on the move.

Also, Both Pilgrim and the Saint have verbally expressed concern over Cats ability to twist stories in such a way that she happily takes the role of a hero as often as she does a villain.

And again, it wasn't so much that she was being played as it was the Pilgrim using an unexpected turn to initiate a 'potential' three parter.

yes, concern, is quite different from fear.
I also really doubt it wasnt a Pilgrim Backup plan she ran into.
One she for that matter first discovered after it had gotten into motion.

Cat is still alive. That's all the failure that matters. Saint won the fight, absolutely, but failed to seal the deal. Pilgrim tried to box clever because of the damage a Queen of Moonless Nights could pose, but his efforts to use story-fu to kill her or neutralize her did neither. They bested her at almost every turn, but never achieved the one thing they needed: the death of Catherine Foundling. Only one person has achieved that so far, and even that didn't slow her down more than a few hours.

In fact, she poses a more significant threat now, as Cat is beginning to realize. The Moonless Queen would have been an ungodly terror to put down, but, make no mistake, she would have been put down. Oh, it would have been a titanic struggle, a story for the ages, but there was no way Above or Below a Moonless Queen would win that story. This Cat, however? She has all the potential resources of Triumphant and a complicated morality that keeps her from falling into most fatal Villain patterns. For all her newfound weakness and mortality, this Cat could win. That's what's terrifying about her: she's got the "worst" traits of Black and Triumphant in a single package, combined with a desire to make things better that has miraculously gone mostly uncorrupted despite following a Villainous path.

Well yes, she has proved stunningly resilient, but thats more or less her main villian story advantage?
Yell "curses! foiled again!" and run off, then your almost guaranteed a clean escape :P

And no, i do think in his situation what he needed to achive most of all, were preventing a Dead King Scenario.
Everything else is secondary. We have direct evidence on that it is actually possible to achive this, and become the sort of threat that
kan only temporarly be pushed back.

This Cat meanwhile, is much less of an issue. Yes she could likely win. But its a round of the game she can win.
Just like Black did a generation before when he got got to take a Good Kingdom. It can be she could become another Triumpant.
Im not going to debate for or against that.

Because my actual point is, this isnt a terrifying prospect. If she wins this round hard enough, then it might be her name people curse by.
But that doesnt matter longterm. The game would not have gone on for so long if Above didnt win about as much as Below.
But the relevant bit here is that Triumpant isnt around any long. Unlike the Dead King who have made himself a permanent addition to the board.

True, he's been relying on Cat's compass since joining up, which is a comical concept in itself. But right now he's without Cat and without his fathers and very likely suffering pain on a level he never has before (you have to love something for its loss to hurt that much, and he doesn't love much of anything). Right now, he's got a lot of pain he's not equipped to handle and no compass at all.

Well yes, i guess part of the problem here is that he has not had much chance to grow up in any significant way.
He likely only loved his fathers and knowledge.

Also, you're right about apotheosis being the most important thing to him, but it's worth noting it's not just any apotheosis. It is apotheosis born of knowledge he craves. To become a god by learning the rules, rather than ignoring them. Cat's flirting with godhood before Sve Nok would not have appealed to him. In fact, the whole becoming a god thing isn't the key part of his goal - it's mastering the rules so hard that divinity isn't even a big deal anymore. This does nothing to invalidate your argument, but I feel it's interesting enough to point out.

And yes, its just about his purpose, dissect creation to understand it.
The issue is then merely that not really caring about anything at all in the world, or for that matter the world itself,
makes him a classical villain and a bit of a sociopath.

[Calemyr]

Well yes, she has proved stunningly resilient, but thats more or less her main villian story advantage?
Yell "curses! foiled again!" and run off, then your almost guaranteed a clean escape :P

And no, i do think in his situation what he needed to achive most of all, were preventing a Dead King Scenario.
Everything else is secondary. We have direct evidence on that it is actually possible to achive this, and become the sort of threat that
kan only temporarly be pushed back.

This Cat meanwhile, is much less of an issue. Yes she could likely win. But its a round of the game she can win.
Just like Black did a generation before when he got got to take a Good Kingdom. It can be she could become another Triumpant.
Im not going to debate for or against that.

Because my actual point is, this isnt a terrifying prospect. If she wins this round hard enough, then it might be her name people curse by.
But that doesnt matter longterm. The game would not have gone on for so long if Above didnt win about as much as Below.
But the relevant bit here is that Triumpant isnt around any long. Unlike the Dead King who have made himself a permanent addition to the board.

Actually, I believe it is a terrifying prospect, from the point of view of Tariq or the Bard. The whole point of Black's perspective is that Villains don't win. The Heavens stack the deck to tear down anything the Below builds, and the Below seems to enjoy watching Villains fail just as much as the Heavens do. The Dead King preserves in invincibility by avoiding the pitfalls of Villainy, effectively rendering him impotent in the bargain. He can't lose, but he never really wins, either. Just an infinite stasis, something only endurable by the undead. Even that much stands as a permanent black mark on the Bard's record. Black's conquest is a Narrative coup: applying Good policies to Evil's benefit. Black wins, and then employs tactics that keep the victory from going sour on him without betraying the spirit of his side, that power is freedom. He has, quite literally, changed the nature of the game in a small but very meaningful way by putting a distinct win on Evil's scoreboard, one that Good has been unable to wipe away.

Cat is the threat of Black on Triumphant's scale. If she wins, the entire game stands to break. For Good, the side that's predestined to always win, reducing the continent to radioactive ash might be slightly less damaging than Cat winning.

And yes, its just about his purpose, dissect creation to understand it.
The issue is then merely that not really caring about anything at all in the world, or for that matter the world itself,
makes him a classical villain and a bit of a sociopath.

Can't really argue you here. Masego is absolutely a Villain, probably the purest example among the Woe, not counting Akua. And yeah, a sociopath - he's missing the moral gears to tell right from wrong, so he relies on others to provide the context he's missing. He doesn't care, he only cares that Cat cares.

Apropos of nothing, one thought on the matter has been on my mind since I started rereading the story: the prologue paints Good and Evil as a debate between the gods about their role in creation.

The Gods disagreed on the nature of things: some believed their children should be guided to greater things, while others believed that they must rule over the creatures they had made.

So, we are told, were born Good and Evil.

When I first read that, I was of the opinion that the side wanting to rule their creatures was Evil, because evil is often tied to domination. After the conflicts with the Choir of Contrition and Tariq, however, I think I had the roles reversed. Good in this setting is the one telling people what to do, who to hate, and what to think. Evil is the side saying "I don't care what you do, as long as you do it yourself and you make it spectacular". There's not really a point to this, it's just an observation that's been on my mind regarding this work.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure he is exactly a sociopath in the stereotypical layperson's understanding. He does care about people, just a very small number of them - his friends and his fathers. His neurodivergence combined with his prodigal intellect and being raised by a villain and a demon have fried any moral compass he might have...he's easily as Evil as Akua. But he still has empathy, even if he struggles to express or even actualize those emotions.

[lord_khaine]

Actually, I believe it is a terrifying prospect, from the point of view of Tariq or the Bard. The whole point of Black's perspective is that Villains don't win. The Heavens stack the deck to tear down anything the Below builds, and the Below seems to enjoy watching Villains fail just as much as the Heavens do. The Dead King preserves in invincibility by avoiding the pitfalls of Villainy, effectively rendering him impotent in the bargain. He can't lose, but he never really wins, either. Just an infinite stasis, something only endurable by the undead. Even that much stands as a permanent black mark on the Bard's record. Black's conquest is a Narrative coup: applying Good policies to Evil's benefit. Black wins, and then employs tactics that keep the victory from going sour on him without betraying the spirit of his side, that power is freedom. He has, quite literally, changed the nature of the game in a small but very meaningful way by putting a distinct win on Evil's scoreboard, one that Good has been unable to wipe away.

Cat is the threat of Black on Triumphant's scale. If she wins, the entire game stands to break. For Good, the side that's predestined to always win, reducing the continent to radioactive ash might be slightly less damaging than Cat winning.

Firstly i will state that i dont give much for Black's perspective, since he himself is a staggering hipocrite in this regard.
And i dont believe in the bit about heaven being the only ones to influence the deck. This game could not have gone on for long enough,
to leave freaking groves in reality, if each side wasnt equally active. They just do it in different ways because they have different styles.
Below quite blatantly arranges for massive powerups to their chosen champions, like how Cat were set up to eat or be eaten by Dark.
Above then tries to set up a way to counter the massive power difference that there usually is between villain and hero.

Thats also why i dont believe Blacks victory were such a big deal. Its not if your looking in a larger perspective, where a generation is just a single turn.
At least, i cant see any sort of evidence or sign of Above caring as much about Black's as anyone makes it sound.

Black invaded Fantasy Poland, as someone earlier descriped it. And the reaction where a massive "meh" from the rest of the major powers.
Noone cared about it. At least not enough to do anything about it. Black had wisely decided to settle for a minor victory, and so the response became wait a turn.
We saw how the only heroes that showed up were local ones like William, not outside experienced ones.

This is in sharp contrast to things Above does care about. Like the Dead King, or the potential of a new one.
There heroes like Pilgrim, Saint and Witch suddenly shows up. And does whatever it takes.

[Calemyr]

Firstly i will state that i dont give much for Black's perspective, since he himself is a staggering hipocrite in this regard.
And i dont believe in the bit about heaven being the only ones to influence the deck. This game could not have gone on for long enough,
to leave freaking groves in reality, if each side wasnt equally active. They just do it in different ways because they have different styles.
Below quite blatantly arranges for massive powerups to their chosen champions, like how Cat were set up to eat or be eaten by Dark.
Above then tries to set up a way to counter the massive power difference that there usually is between villain and hero.

Thats also why i dont believe Blacks victory were such a big deal. Its not if your looking in a larger perspective, where a generation is just a single turn.
At least, i cant see any sort of evidence or sign of Above caring as much about Black's as anyone makes it sound.

Black invaded Fantasy Poland, as someone earlier descriped it. And the reaction where a massive "meh" from the rest of the major powers.
Noone cared about it. At least not enough to do anything about it. Black had wisely decided to settle for a minor victory, and so the response became wait a turn.
We saw how the only heroes that showed up were local ones like William, not outside experienced ones.

This is in sharp contrast to things Above does care about. Like the Dead King, or the potential of a new one.
There heroes like Pilgrim, Saint and Witch suddenly shows up. And does whatever it takes.

Before I go further, I would like to stress I am not interested in attacking your stance. From my corner this is nothing more than a spirited debate between two valid perspectives, a boxing match of worthy ideas to see where each is strong and weak. Please take my responses with this meaning in mind.

That said, I'm beginning to suspect there's not much further to discuss on this matter. There are two stories running on the same stage, you see. You can either view it as a metatextual exploration of the concepts of Good and Evil, or as a rousing tale of a crude and spunky orphan girl who'd rather play for the bad guys and actually do something than just sit and watch from the sidelines of the angels. The weights of various characters and events shift dramatically based on how you're looking at them. If this is just a story about a girl trying to claw something that works out of the muck by sheer guile and grit, the Black Knight's and the Bard's games are unpleasant and garish and probably best ignored as background events given more focus than their due. If this is a story about Good and Evil, about the virtues and pitfalls of such labels and the malleability of morality, however, those very things become critical points of focus that are, if anything, comically undersold. I believe that is the cause of the divide between us, beyond simple disagreement. I am arguing Blue is a color while you contest that Four is a number. Both are valid and not even competing, but only relevant when considered from a given context.

[lord_khaine]

No.. its clearly not all of this that leads to the disagreement.
I have newer contested that there is a game being played out between Above and Below, with the lifes of named as pawns.
The things i argue against is the importance and scale of Black's victories. I dont see them as something thats going to cause a panic in team Above.

It can be Black has made attempts to change how his side play the game, but as we see with the Tyrant, then its so far just his own student who picket it up.
And from how it has been Cat who got the majority of Tariq's attention, then i dont believe its that big of a concern until now.

[druid91]

No.. its clearly not all of this that leads to the disagreement.
I have newer contested that there is a game being played out between Above and Below, with the lifes of named as pawns.
The things i argue against is the importance and scale of Black's victories. I dont see them as something thats going to cause a panic in team Above.

It can be Black has made attempts to change how his side play the game, but as we see with the Tyrant, then its so far just his own student who picket it up.
And from how it has been Cat who got the majority of Tariq's attention, then i dont believe its that big of a concern until now.

Because Tariq would have died if he'd given Black his attention previously.

Above didn't have an opening until Malicia gave them not one, but two.

[lord_khaine]

Because Tariq would have died if he'd given Black his attention previously.

Above didn't have an opening until Malicia gave them not one, but two.

Yeah right he would.
Its as if its glossed over how its Black who are currently missing his soul, not Tariq

That did not come from any sort of storyplay, it wasnt a heroic deed who took Black out.
But simply Tariq being a step ahead of Black.

And thats ignoring that Tariq did have an actual opening earlier. Callow were a conquered land under martial law.
We saw just what sort of situation Cat started in before Black took her.
The Grey Pilgrim could have been the mentor of Williams band.

[druid91]

Yeah right he would.
Its as if its glossed over how its Black who are currently missing his soul, not Tariq

That did not come from any sort of storyplay, it wasnt a heroic deed who took Black out.
But simply Tariq being a step ahead of Black.

And thats ignoring that Tariq did have an actual opening earlier. Callow were a conquered land under martial law.
We saw just what sort of situation Cat started in before Black took her.
The Grey Pilgrim could have been the mentor of Williams band.

Yes. After Malicia messed up twice and gave them room to show up, and then Tariq managed to turn his Antiheroism into an example of 'the Hubris of Evil' on the part of black.

That confrontation was 100% Divine intervention and story Fu.

And that wasn't sufficient. Clearly. Or else Tariq would have come. He even says he regrets not being able to intervene sooner to Cat.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes. After Malicia messed up twice and gave them room to show up, and then Tariq managed to turn his Antiheroism into an example of 'the Hubris of Evil' on the part of black.

That confrontation was 100% Divine intervention and story Fu.

And that wasn't sufficient. Clearly. Or else Tariq would have come. He even says he regrets not being able to intervene sooner to Cat.

I think he just didn't want to die. Being the mentor of a five man band makes you the clear "dies for narrative purposes" target. William might have won but Tariq would be in the ground.

[Calemyr]

No.. its clearly not all of this that leads to the disagreement.
I have newer contested that there is a game being played out between Above and Below, with the lifes of named as pawns.
The things i argue against is the importance and scale of Black's victories. I dont see them as something thats going to cause a panic in team Above.

It can be Black has made attempts to change how his side play the game, but as we see with the Tyrant, then its so far just his own student who picket it up.
And from how it has been Cat who got the majority of Tariq's attention, then i dont believe its that big of a concern until now.

Black played by the rules of the game. He was the villain, and owned it. He employed Good tactics to achieve his aims, espoused temperance when extremes always failed, and set up an active role that achieved his goals but did not involve any great liability, but he was still unabashedly the Villain. Plus, he was viewed as unique - a madman the likes of which would never get a foothold again. Such anomalies can be tolerated, at least until a Story crops up that can be exploited to remove him. Besides which, he was contained. Black wasn't interested in expanding his conquest beyond Callow, much like the Dead King doesn't go beyond Keter (at least, not without express invitation). Again, it's easier to suffer a sealed Evil to endure as long as it isn't biting at its boundaries.

Cat is and was a very different animal from Black. She's not a Villain, not really. She's more of an anti-Villain, Evil without being evil much like William is Good without being good. She's barely even that, truth be told. Her narrative claim is defensive (reclaiming a stolen home) rather than offensive (stealing said home), giving her a Heroic angle and she has the narrative chops to exploit her complex morality. She is, quite frankly, a rejection of Good and Evil, possibly a refutation of it, in fact.

Given a choice, I suspect Tariq would have been happy to just let the Black Queen set in Callow even with that. But Procer needed a war to bleed off the pressure of excess military power and internal conflict, and now there is no status quo to seal her behind. So other methods must be used to neutralize her - best case would be to make her into a Hero, but otherwise eliminating her would be sufficient. Unfortunately, the Black Queen is devilishly hard to kill, and Cat has the story-fu to exploit and redirect. Before, Winter!Cat was even more dangerous, but that version of Cat had a built in death sentence - that kind of threat was always going to lose, though it was always going to be an exceedingly bloody affair. Night!Cat, on the other hand, isn't destined to fail, And that's scary, because Cat isn't trying to bring down Good, she's trying to render Good and Evil, everything Tariq has built his life upon and everything he has sacrificed so much for, irrelevant.

So, yeah. Black challenged Tariq on terms they were both comfortable with, and respected a boundary Tariq could tolerate. Cat challenges him on terms he is not comfortable with, and circumstances are allowing her no boundaries she can afford to respect. Tariq's response is going to be different.

[Caerulea]

I'm starting to like Yannu. Devoted to a cause, will make hard decisions to achieve it, and helping the leader achieve his goals. His practical strategy reminds me a little of Black.

—Caerulea

[lord_khaine]

Yes. After Malicia messed up twice and gave them room to show up, and then Tariq managed to turn his Antiheroism into an example of 'the Hubris of Evil' on the part of black.

That confrontation was 100% Divine intervention and story Fu.

And that wasn't sufficient. Clearly. Or else Tariq would have come. He even says he regrets not being able to intervene sooner to Cat.

Your mixing things up. Pillaging though the countryside isnt antiheroism. Its villany.

Though it was 0 % divine intervention and story fu. Simply a trap laid out that Black walked into.

But no, thats the whole thing, Tariq only comes out of reserve when its important.
Black taking over another country is strictly small scale villany when all he does is tax it oppressively.
That just gets a stream of junior heroes.

I think he just didn't want to die. Being the mentor of a five man band makes you the clear "dies for narrative purposes" target. William might have won but Tariq would be in the ground.

Nahh.. being the mysterious mentor is Pilgrims whole stick. If the narrative has not killed him in that role before, then it would be unlikely to do so now.

Black played by the rules of the game. He was the villain, and owned it. He employed Good tactics to achieve his aims, espoused temperance when extremes always failed, and set up an active role that achieved his goals but did not involve any great liability, but he was still unabashedly the Villain. Plus, he was viewed as unique - a madman the likes of which would never get a foothold again. Such anomalies can be tolerated, at least until a Story crops up that can be exploited to remove him. Besides which, he was contained. Black wasn't interested in expanding his conquest beyond Callow, much like the Dead King doesn't go beyond Keter (at least, not without express invitation). Again, it's easier to suffer a sealed Evil to endure as long as it isn't biting at its boundaries.

Indeed. Its why i argue for why neither Pilgrim nor Bard were as such scared or concerned about him.
He only played for small stakes, and so skillfully avoided making it worth for Above to pull its elite team out of retirement.
Even if he only had around 10% chance of defeating Tariq, then it would still be to risky to fight Black.
Because Callow is just a country, but Tariq is a unique piece on the board.

Cat is and was a very different animal from Black. She's not a Villain, not really. She's more of an anti-Villain, Evil without being evil much like William is Good without being good. She's barely even that, truth be told. Her narrative claim is defensive (reclaiming a stolen home) rather than offensive (stealing said home), giving her a Heroic angle and she has the narrative chops to exploit her complex morality. She is, quite frankly, a rejection of Good and Evil, possibly a refutation of it, in fact.

Given a choice, I suspect Tariq would have been happy to just let the Black Queen set in Callow even with that. But Procer needed a war to bleed off the pressure of excess military power and internal conflict, and now there is no status quo to seal her behind. So other methods must be used to neutralize her - best case would be to make her into a Hero, but otherwise eliminating her would be sufficient. Unfortunately, the Black Queen is devilishly hard to kill, and Cat has the story-fu to exploit and redirect. Before, Winter!Cat was even more dangerous, but that version of Cat had a built in death sentence - that kind of threat was always going to lose, though it was always going to be an exceedingly bloody affair. Night!Cat, on the other hand, isn't destined to fail, And that's scary, because Cat isn't trying to bring down Good, she's trying to render Good and Evil, everything Tariq has built his life upon and everything he has sacrificed so much for, irrelevant.

Else, well yeah Cat is likely pretty different. She is certainly not as evil or ruthless as black. Though i would still call her a little bit evil, or at least a darker shade of gray.
And yes, i also think Tariq would care a lot less about what the Black Queen does if she could be convinced to stay in her country, or better yet, hand it over to someone else.
That would eleminate the things that likely drew him out, or kept him active. That a Villain were in charge of a country. Or worse yet, that Dead Queen 0.1 were moving towards closed beta.

I just dont think its something thats scary for Tariq. You live in the Land of Stone and Stars. One could say its the fundation your life is build upon.
Would you be scared if a 12 year old told you she were going to set it all on fire? Its about the same sort of scales here, since Above and Beneath are cosmic forces.
Actually as such, if anything Tariq should be less scared now. Cat is mortal now. That means if she fails to die from some randomly stupic like blowing herself up with goblingfire or choking on a fishbone, then he can always rely on age doing the job for him.

[Calemyr]

Indeed. Its why i argue for why neither Pilgrim nor Bard were as such scared or concerned about him.
He only played for small stakes, and so skillfully avoided making it worth for Above to pull its elite team out of retirement.
Even if he only had around 10% chance of defeating Tariq, then it would still be to risky to fight Black.
Because Callow is just a country, but Tariq is a unique piece on the board.

Else, well yeah Cat is likely pretty different. She is certainly not as evil or ruthless as black. Though i would still call her a little bit evil, or at least a darker shade of gray.
And yes, i also think Tariq would care a lot less about what the Black Queen does if she could be convinced to stay in her country, or better yet, hand it over to someone else.
That would eleminate the things that likely drew him out, or kept him active. That a Villain were in charge of a country. Or worse yet, that Dead Queen 0.1 were moving towards closed beta.

I just dont think its something thats scary for Tariq. You live in the Land of Stone and Stars. One could say its the fundation your life is build upon.
Would you be scared if a 12 year old told you she were going to set it all on fire? Its about the same sort of scales here, since Above and Beneath are cosmic forces.
Actually as such, if anything Tariq should be less scared now. Cat is mortal now. That means if she fails to die from some randomly stupic like blowing herself up with goblingfire or choking on a fishbone, then he can always rely on age doing the job for him.

My hypothesis is that Black's restrained grasp made it so he could be safely ignored (and yes, even a small chance of Tariq falling wouldn't have been worth it), but his effectiveness at both conquest and Story-proofing that conquest is worrying, kind of like hearing a sharp snap while crossing a wooden bridge. Odds are it still won't crumble into the river below on a whim, dragging you with it, but it's a sign that things are worse than you believed. Black wasn't worth fighting, but that's not the same thing as not being worth watching very carefully.

As for Cat, well, first I wanted to applaud your use of my listed location in your argument. That is a clever touch and really caught my eye. That said, I don't fully agree with your scenario. As I've suggested before, there's a mundane and a metatextual struggle going on at the same time. On a mundane level, the Black Queen is really not a major threat. She's lost a lot of power, her trump card has gone rogue, her most useful ally has gone AWOL, most of her remaining allies are crippled in one way or another, and she's stuck on her bum foot in enemy territory. Compared to forces arrayed against her, this girl will be lucky to count the remains of her life in bells. From a purely mundane point of view, that is.

From a metatextual point of view, she might as well be holding an unlit match in the Land of Propane and Gasoline. The right motive, the right word ("father"?) repeated often enough, the right disparity between forces, and all mundane concerns are so much air. A shepherd can fell a giant with enough narrative backing him. And this is a setting where that inevitability is more than just a cynical assessment of an author's craft, it's a metaphysical law - one that Tariq and the Bard are intimately familiar with. They know, better than anyone, how just the right push can bring fortresses toppling down, as they've done just that to Villains for a long time.

I have little doubt that Tariq would have been happy to let Cat play queen in her little corner of the continent, blissfully sticking a thumb in the eyes of Malicia and Cordelia in equal measure, until the day she died. But the crusade grew out of hand, presumably driven to a fevered pitch by the inscrutable Bard, and Cat is being put in a corner. You don't put a scrappy underdog in a corner, not in a world like this, not if you want anything other than said underdog to walk out intact. Removing her from play ASAP is the only way to escape the ruin that is coming, and even Tariq is having a hard time pulling it off.

[druid91]

Your mixing things up. Pillaging though the countryside isnt antiheroism. Its villany.

Though it was 0 % divine intervention and story fu. Simply a trap laid out that Black walked into.

Tariq is the antihero.

Black went in expecting a shining knight. A holy man. Not the grey Pilgrim. Tariq stopped to make a whole speech about how blacks Hubris at thinking he understood stories would be his downfall because he thought Heroes incapable of doing what evil could, and then had the choir of mercy craft him a plague to kill the entire town and blacks legions with.

[tyckspoon]

So, wild speculating about the latest interlude:

Spoiler

Show

I wonder if Creation might be trying to tame Catherine by wrapping her actions into a story? Abigail is looking.. quite familiar right now. Repeating beats of Catherine's earlier adventures. Soldier/commander in an uncomfortable command, orcish assistant providing stability and helping translate her into a more official idiom. Apparent brilliance and success arising almost entirely from a concern for trying not to eff up too hard. Makes Catherine not exceptional, not somebody who might be breaking rules or risking breaking the whole game, just .. a new kind of story, possibly the mold for a new Name. And Creation knows how to handle Names, even if they're being bent into supporting stories and roles the Gods may not prefer. It still puts them back in the bounds of the rules.

Could wind up with Catherine in the crosshairs of a mentor-death, too, especially if Abigail should happen to wind up developing a Name out of everything and starts getting more Narrative focus on her life.