A Practical Guide to Evil

[Caerulea]

Spoiler

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I wonder if Creation might be trying to tame Catherine by wrapping her actions into a story? Abigail is looking.. quite familiar right now. Repeating beats of Catherine's earlier adventures. Soldier/commander in an uncomfortable command, orcish assistant providing stability and helping translate her into a more official idiom. Apparent brilliance and success arising almost entirely from a concern for trying not to eff up too hard. Makes Catherine not exceptional, not somebody who might be breaking rules or risking breaking the whole game, just .. a new kind of story, possibly the mold for a new Name. And Creation knows how to handle Names, even if they're being bent into supporting stories and roles the Gods may not prefer. It still puts them back in the bounds of the rules.

Could wind up with Catherine in the crosshairs of a mentor-death, too, especially if Abigail should happen to wind up developing a Name out of everything and starts getting more Narrative focus on her life.

I think that is unlikely, considering that Abigail is desperately trying to get less authority, and Catherine is mostly invested in her because of the stabilising influence she could have. If she became a threat, even just through story, Catherine would probably have her demoted / dismissed.

Also, what Name could Abigail possibly get? She doesn't seem to have a strong desire except 'not dying' and 'not making important decisions.' Neither of which seems like the basis for a Name.

—Caerulea

[tyckspoon]

Also, what Name could Abigail possibly get? She doesn't seem to have a strong desire except 'not dying' and 'not making important decisions.' Neither of which seems like the basis for a Name.

—Caerulea

Not a Villain name, at least, which appear to be attracted to drive, determination, and will-to-power types. But there are entire Heroic archetypes based on failing ones way to success and basically taking Providence - the tendency of things to just 'happen' to go right for Heroes - to its extreme as a means of operation. I doubt the Fool (the Hero the Proceran armies were using as a mine-sweeper when they were trying to force the passes against Black and the Legions last book) presents as a particularly Heroic figure either, but he's still carrying a Name.

Edit: I don't think it's particularly probable, either, but this is a world where repeated tropes and story beats are specifically part of the metaphysics. I read something that makes me go 'huh, I've seen this story before' and I can't rule out that it's intentional on levels beyond just references and callbacks.

[Calemyr]

Abigail becoming Squire could work. Cat doesn't have any meaningful tie to the Name anymore, nor in a position to be threatened by a new one.

That said, I wouldn't bet on it. It seems like Callow is turning its back on Named, as the Woe are faltering while we aren't seeing new ones step up. I don't think the culture knows what it is, anymore, and there aren't any established Names fitting the current zeitgeist.

[Lord Raziere]

finally started reading this. got to chapter 15, first book and- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA....DON'T SCREW WITH THE GNOMES! its hilarious. the Praesi Empire chews up heroes and spits them out for breakfast, but Gnooooooooooomes? TERRIFIED! in this world Gnomes are a highly advanced civilization that controls everyone else or something, what the frell, okay okay, this is good, the fact that Black Knight is reacting more visibly to freaking GNOMES and that the one world where heroes don't succeed is also the one world where gnomes and their inventions are taken completely seriously to the point where big evil empire people want to avoid ticking them off at all costs.

Gnooooooomeess....

Edit: THE PRAESI ARE A PETTY BACKWATER KINGDOM!? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA..... I'm getting so much schadenfreude comedic enjoyment out of these super practical competent villains being nothing but regional powers that aren't even playing on a world stage! this is comedy gold, the entire other chapters makes it seem like the empire is all-powerful but then NOPE! always a bigger fish, lets go!

[tyckspoon]

Abigail becoming Squire could work. Cat doesn't have any meaningful tie to the Name anymore, nor in a position to be threatened by a new one.

That said, I wouldn't bet on it. It seems like Callow is turning its back on Named, as the Woe are faltering while we aren't seeing new ones step up. I don't think the culture knows what it is, anymore, and there aren't any established Names fitting the current zeitgeist.

At this point, I think Callow is just Callow. They know what they are. They're Callowans. They're not Good, they're not Evil. They're just Callowans, and the rest of the world can sod right off. They take the long price from any who offend them, most of them are intensely patriotic, they don't really want anything from the rest of the world aside from leaving Callow the hells alone for once. I think you can still see Names out of this, but probably not the obviously Above or Below sponsored ones that are so blatantly Heroic or Villainous; people like Ranger's trainees and Thief come from a culture like that. Although if you have a point where neutral Names are created frequently, you probably also see a suspiciously high number of agents of Above and Below trolling around trying to tempt them to commit to one of the sides.

(I suspect that for so long Callow only identified itself as Good because their number one opponent so blatantly embraced Evil - Being Good isn't really part of the Callowan identity, they just wanted to be as unlike Praes as possible.)

[Calemyr]

At this point, I think Callow is just Callow. They know what they are. They're Callowans. They're not Good, they're not Evil. They're just Callowans, and the rest of the world can sod right off. They take the long price from any who offend them, most of them are intensely patriotic, they don't really want anything from the rest of the world aside from leaving Callow the hells alone for once. I think you can still see Names out of this, but probably not the obviously Above or Below sponsored ones that are so blatantly Heroic or Villainous; people like Ranger's trainees and Thief come from a culture like that. Although if you have a point where neutral Names are created frequently, you probably also see a suspiciously high number of agents of Above and Below trolling around trying to tempt them to commit to one of the sides.

(I suspect that for so long Callow only identified itself as Good because their number one opponent so blatantly embraced Evil - Being Good isn't really part of the Callowan identity, they just wanted to be as unlike Praes as possible.)

Given they hate "heroic" Procer almost as much as Praes, you're probably right. What neutral names do we have? Mostly transitional ones, I think, as Squire can lead to White Knight as easily as Black Knight.

[The Glyphstone]

finally started reading this. got to chapter 15, first book and- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA....DON'T SCREW WITH THE GNOMES! its hilarious. the Praesi Empire chews up heroes and spits them out for breakfast, but Gnooooooooooomes? TERRIFIED! in this world Gnomes are a highly advanced civilization that controls everyone else or something, what the frell, okay okay, this is good, the fact that Black Knight is reacting more visibly to freaking GNOMES and that the one world where heroes don't succeed is also the one world where gnomes and their inventions are taken completely seriously to the point where big evil empire people want to avoid ticking them off at all costs.

Gnooooooomeess....

Edit: THE PRAESI ARE A PETTY BACKWATER KINGDOM!? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA..... I'm getting so much schadenfreude comedic enjoyment out of these super practical competent villains being nothing but regional powers that aren't even playing on a world stage! this is comedy gold, the entire other chapters makes it seem like the empire is all-powerful but then NOPE! always a bigger fish, lets go!

The whole region is sort of like that, both politically and cosmically. There is a mention later on of what is pretty clearly the in world equivalent of China, which is co-ruled by a Hero and Villain together. So even the Praesi-Procer dynamic of Good and Evil isnt representative of the whole world.

[tyckspoon]

Given they hate "heroic" Procer almost as much as Praes, you're probably right. What neutral names do we have? Mostly transitional ones, I think, as Squire can lead to White Knight as easily as Black Knight.

Pretty sure Ranger is one. Archer, same - we've never seen her use Light, which is the trademark of a Heavens-sponsored Hero, and I'm nearly certain she's not actually a follower of the Gods Below (although I'd be hard pressed to provide a citation.) Thief, until her situation changed such that she no longer needed to be Thief. Hunter did use Light, while he was around, but his personality seemed to be more of the 'I just wanna good fight and some fun' type than anything dedicated to Heroism in the do-gooding sense. I think probably Augur and Scribe - no textual evidence, but I get the feeling from them they're not a 'Hero' and a 'Villain' in terms of Above and Below, they're just people who are associated with Heroic and Villainous teams. Adjutant, similar thing - he doesn't give a carp about being a Villain. He's Adjutant because he needs to be a better support to Catherine, who herself was dancing the line of anti-heroics.

.. seems like there's a fairly broad class of Names/Bestowals/Blessings/whatever that, I think, largely function to enhance the bearer's natural talents and proclivities; they don't function as obvious Miracles the way things like Light tricks and Black Knight's shadow control do, so they aren't inherently aligned to Good or Evil. Might even exist, be created and claimed outside of the control of the Gods Above and Below. Possibly a necessary side effect of having the directly sponsored names in existence? Once you make the world such that you can have a Good Hero and an Evil Villain, you also have to permit for supernaturally talented warriors, thieves, bureaucrats, and the like that aren't strongly aligned?

[lord_khaine]

finally started reading this. got to chapter 15, first book and- BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA....DON'T SCREW WITH THE GNOMES! its hilarious. the Praesi Empire chews up heroes and spits them out for breakfast, but Gnooooooooooomes? TERRIFIED! in this world Gnomes are a highly advanced civilization that controls everyone else or something, what the frell, okay okay, this is good, the fact that Black Knight is reacting more visibly to freaking GNOMES and that the one world where heroes don't succeed is also the one world where gnomes and their inventions are taken completely seriously to the point where big evil empire people want to avoid ticking them off at all costs.

I do hate them myself with a burning passion. In my eyes they are only a single step below The Dead King in Evil.
And i do look forward to the day their stupid fleet is thrown into a hell portal. Even if the story newer reaches that far.

.. seems like there's a fairly broad class of Names/Bestowals/Blessings/whatever that, I think, largely function to enhance the bearer's natural talents and proclivities; they don't function as obvious Miracles the way things like Light tricks and Black Knight's shadow control do, so they aren't inherently aligned to Good or Evil. Might even exist, be created and claimed outside of the control of the Gods Above and Below. Possibly a necessary side effect of having the directly sponsored names in existence? Once you make the world such that you can have a Good Hero and an Evil Villain, you also have to permit for supernaturally talented warriors, thieves, bureaucrats, and the like that aren't strongly aligned?

We were from the start told that names were not the direct creation of Below and Above.
That it were a result of certain archetypes appering again and again.
Often enough to create a grove in the fabric of fate.

[Lord Raziere]

I do hate them myself with a burning passion. In my eyes they are only a single step below The Dead King in Evil.
And i do look forward to the day their stupid fleet is thrown into a hell portal. Even if the story newer reaches that far.

....The gnomes or Praes?

currently I don't really root for or hate anyone...except Lone Swordsman when he did a legit good by freeing some "totally not slaves" finally. I'm not sure how to feel about the story, Praes or Catherine in general. because yes they are sympathetic, make a lot of good points about practicality and order and so on....but they are still evil. like the labels of Good and Evil, no matter how unfairly they tip things this way or that, are still accurate, so I can't really wish for any of them to succeed.

Black Knight is still a guy who murders people because his entire goal boils down to a cold calculated long term form of spite, Malicia and Catherine are trying to change things yes, but somehow think that things are going to get better just because practicality when the people in charge are still going to be evil bastards. practical evil just means they're better at being evil, nothing more. Wandering Bard just wants to keep the status quo, which never helps. Apprentice clearly wants to rebel against the gods themselves, that always ends well.

something about Callow becoming Praes something something true change, but I don't buy it. not really? so your trying to successfully change one conquered nation into apart of an empire and this will somehow prove some evil thing can be done and give heroes the shiver maybe someday, but really its because you need to solve food shortages in your third world country. Eh.

I dunno, there seems to be an excluded middle here. not sure what it is, but its excluded. but then I guess Praes murdered all the smart pragmatic heroes who'd also think that this Name and pattern thing the gods cooked up is bull as well, so I guess they screwed up there. I like that it acknowledges that Catherine has her moments of heroism and goodness and that people don't always look at her as completely villainous despite her consistently taking more steps downwards while making the choice to do so seem reasonable. and sure they're trying to change things but....I'm not sure if the change they're aiming for is really worth it, or that its going to stay changed, or that they'll really make anything better with their methods. I don't see cold practical evil as something that can last forever. if the patterns hold, all that will change is cold practical Good eventually coming out of the woodwork and beating cold practical evil anyways to restore the status quo back to hammy impractical versions of both.

honestly matters of state shouldn't be the domain of heroes or villains at all. both are unrealistic and bad for what it demands, they both have their faults, just different ones.

[halfeye]

the labels of Good and Evil, no matter how unfairly they tip things this way or that, are still accurate, so I can't really wish for any of them to succeed.

I'm not at all sure about that. I mean, the choirs seem to be pretty monstrous, though the demons or was it devils don't seem to be good either. I am really not sure which side the Wandering Bard is on, when she was exorcised by the guy from the quasi communist side she seemed to take it as justified once she was sure he wasn't joking.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not at all sure about that. I mean, the choirs seem to be pretty monstrous, though the demons or was it devils don't seem to be good either.

Yeah, but Praes no matter how much it dresses up in practicality, sympathy and rationality, is still evil and monstrous. still fond of execution, still has cannibal murder orcs, still conquers for the sake of its own selfish gain, still throws away morality and so on and so forth, Catherine is not a good person at all and I don't see any reason why she should succeed over anyone else. sure good may not be entirely Good, but Evil is as Evil as it comes, no amount of flipped perspective will change what they're doing is wrong.

also the rest of that was spoilers for me, don't do that. I'm only at book 2 I think.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but Praes no matter how much it dresses up in practicality, sympathy and rationality, is still evil and monstrous. still fond of execution, still has cannibal murder orcs, still conquers for the sake of its own selfish gain, still throws away morality and so on and so forth, Catherine is not a good person at all and I don't see any reason why she should succeed over anyone else. sure good may not be entirely Good, but Evil is as Evil as it comes, no amount of flipped perspective will change what they're doing is wrong.

also the rest of that was spoilers for me, don't do that. I'm only at book 2 I think.

I'd say books 2-3 are really about what you are talking about, with books 4-5 being about the nature of the good guys. I look forward to you catching up

[Lord Raziere]

I'd say books 2-3 are really about what you are talking about, with books 4-5 being about the nature of the good guys. I look forward to you catching up

I see.

...I guess I have my suspicions and doubts, because these types of stories about practicality while avoiding many traps of usual genre writing, can fall into a subtler trap of writing what I will tentatively call "The Practicality Sue". where a certain character embodies the authors view of what is rational and reasonable and seems to never lose or have flaws because of it and if it turns out that rational Praesi evil methods were right all along, I'd be highly disappointed in this series. just because your seeing the story of a rational murderer from their POV and getting all the reasons why they did this and that, and what thy sacrificed and the troubles they've gone though, and how they want something better, and what they do is competent, doesn't mean it should be done, or that they have a ticket out of the crimes they do. or that they should or will always succeed.

I mean it acknowledges the complexity and nuance that rulership and such actually needs, I'd hate for it to throw it all away just to say "yup Evil is somehow good and right in this story because they were rational durhurr."

[Forum Explorer]

I see.

...I guess I have my suspicions and doubts, because these types of stories about practicality while avoiding many traps of usual genre writing, can fall into a subtler trap of writing what I will tentatively call "The Practicality Sue". where a certain character embodies the authors view of what is rational and reasonable and seems to never lose or have flaws because of it and if it turns out that rational Praesi evil methods were right all along, I'd be highly disappointed in this series. just because your seeing the story of a rational murderer from their POV and getting all the reasons why they did this and that, and what thy sacrificed and the troubles they've gone though, and how they want something better, and what they do is competent, doesn't mean it should be done, or that they have a ticket out of the crimes they do. or that they should or will always succeed.

I mean it acknowledges the complexity and nuance that rulership and such actually needs, I'd hate for it to throw it all away just to say "yup Evil is somehow good and right in this story because they were rational durhurr."

Read faster. I want to respond to this, but I can't because of spoilers.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

Show

Yes, murdering each other in honor duels in the middle of a battle on one side and fractious vying for power on the other.

Remind me why Procer and Levant are the "good" guys?



*skulldesk*

So and I cannot BELIEVE the stupidity here... The Cunning Plan for a night attack is "hey, let's light ourselves up so that we can see, so that even the HUMANS who do't have night vision have a load of nicely lit silhouettes to shoot at!"

The point of a night attack is to NOT BE SEEN while you creep up on the enemy. Giving away you're making a night attack by stomping in with all the light sources (highlight your clerics for sniper fire, no really, that can't possible go wrong) is defeating the ENTIRE POINT.

LICHEMASTER, these people are stupid.



Leaving aside the dumbass - in serious or not - who suggested that Drow might not have night-vision.



Also "just as planned" Pilgrim? Really? You, the supposed master of stories, just went "just as planned...?" As your masters brick themselves...?

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

[halfeye]

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

Show

Yes, murdering each other in honor duels in the middle of a battle on one side and fractious vying for power on the other.

Remind me why Procer and Levant are the "good" guys?



*skulldesk*

So and I cannot BELIEVE the stupidity here... The Cunning Plan for a night attack is "hey, let's light ourselves up so that we can see, so that even the HUMANS who do't have night vision have a load of nicely lit silhouettes to shoot at!"

The point of a night attack is to NOT BE SEEN while you creep up on the enemy. Giving away you're making a night attack by stomping in with all the light sources (highlight your clerics for sniper fire, no really, that can't possible go wrong) is defeating the ENTIRE POINT.

LICHEMASTER, these people are stupid.


Leaving aside the dumbass - in serious or not - who suggested that Drow might not have night-vision.



Also "just as planned" Pilgrim? Really? You, the supposed master of stories, just went "just as planned...?" As your masters brick themselves...?

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

I'm up to current, which book is that? I binged it in about 10 days some months(?) ago, but I didn't keep count of books.

I think the:

Spoiler: book?

Show

"I'd missed this, being totally owned and bull****ing for the world crown" (slight paraphrase of Catherine on being beaten by Sve nok (spelled?)).

Which has me doubting the long term viability of the story as a story, Catherine is a Sue, but a strange weakness Sue. She's dangerous because plot, but strength doesn't matter because she's most dangerous when she's totally bluffing, because her bluffs always work, because plot.

[Calemyr]

I see.

...I guess I have my suspicions and doubts, because these types of stories about practicality while avoiding many traps of usual genre writing, can fall into a subtler trap of writing what I will tentatively call "The Practicality Sue". where a certain character embodies the authors view of what is rational and reasonable and seems to never lose or have flaws because of it and if it turns out that rational Praesi evil methods were right all along, I'd be highly disappointed in this series. just because your seeing the story of a rational murderer from their POV and getting all the reasons why they did this and that, and what thy sacrificed and the troubles they've gone though, and how they want something better, and what they do is competent, doesn't mean it should be done, or that they have a ticket out of the crimes they do. or that they should or will always succeed.

I mean it acknowledges the complexity and nuance that rulership and such actually needs, I'd hate for it to throw it all away just to say "yup Evil is somehow good and right in this story because they were rational durhurr."

Read faster. I want to respond to this, but I can't because of spoilers.

Heh. Agreed. What I will say is that a lot of it comes from the difference between protagonist and hero. It's easy to see the villain as a monster when all you see of them is the snarling butcher stalking the battlefield. When a story is set that you see that villain drinking and bantering with their friends and struggling to achieve something beyond bloodshed for the lulz, you are forced to consider them as people. When you show nothing of the heroes but their arrogance and their unwavering destructive crusade against their enemy, you reduce them to monsters. We are never the bad guy, it is always them, and it's up to the storyteller to inform us who is who. At least, that's what I tend to take from the tale.

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

Show

Yes, murdering each other in honor duels in the middle of a battle on one side and fractious vying for power on the other.

Remind me why Procer and Levant are the "good" guys?



*skulldesk*

So and I cannot BELIEVE the stupidity here... The Cunning Plan for a night attack is "hey, let's light ourselves up so that we can see, so that even the HUMANS who do't have night vision have a load of nicely lit silhouettes to shoot at!"

The point of a night attack is to NOT BE SEEN while you creep up on the enemy. Giving away you're making a night attack by stomping in with all the light sources (highlight your clerics for sniper fire, no really, that can't possible go wrong) is defeating the ENTIRE POINT.

LICHEMASTER, these people are stupid.



Leaving aside the dumbass - in serious or not - who suggested that Drow might not have night-vision.



Also "just as planned" Pilgrim? Really? You, the supposed master of stories, just went "just as planned...?" As your masters brick themselves...?

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

Show

It is true that the difference between Good and Evil cultures is comically vague. The games Procerans and the Levant play aren't particularly more moral than those of the Praesi, save that collateral damage is more limited. If a Praesi High Lord wanted to make a similar point, Akil would be dead, as would be Razin, while their retainers would be bled in some demonic sacrifice. An honor duel, while stupid and petty to kill an elite (rival or no) hours before a pivotal battle, at least serves a purpose: keeping the assembled host as focused as possible. If you don't think Akil would be just as likely as Razin to turn a bloody nose into a suicidal charge in the name of honor, you've got a better opinion of the man than I. Rather than having the army split its focus, they removed a damaged elite likely to promote division and nipped that in the bud. That said, the Good side does not come off looking good here.

I don't know what to think of the Procerans right now, honestly. That night vision remark, compounded by the speaker's obliviousness to the sarcasm it was met with, does not make Arnaud look intelligent, but I don't think he's ever been described as such. I think he's meant to be a counterpoint to Rozala, arrogant stupidity to drive home the fact that the is unusually perceptive and level headed. The same could be said about the other princes, honestly. Though the contrasts they draw differ, it seems that everyone on the Alliance side of things was hand-picked to ensure that Rozala is the only one we might hope survives the night. Sword Saint is clearly in the love-to-hate, dance-on-her-grave levels of unlikable, for example. Between their comments and Juniper's "they can't be this stupid" remark, I'm really wondering where it's going to end up. I mean, if it weren't for the Exiled Prince, I wouldn't even wonder if they can make a stupid decision. But that silly scene effectively established that Heroes can fall to hubris as much as Villains.

As much as it would amuse me to read Tariq's part at the end as hubris, however, I don't think he's being smug. I think he's more trying to put a finger on what he might be missing, why the Angels of Mercy might be so nervous. Everything looks right, after all, but something is wrong.

Good to see something happening, though. For the last week or so, I've been channeling Monty Python's Holy Grail: "Git on wit' it!"

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm up to current, which book is that? I binged it in about 10 days some months(?) ago, but I didn't keep count of books.

The latest chapter released today. (You can just look at the sidebar, t tells you which book we're on.)

[lord_khaine]

....The gnomes or Praes?

The gnomes.
Praes are just evil, stupid, and wants to conquer the world.

The gnomes are technologically advanced, and directly responsible for killing the technological progression on the continent.

[Aotrs Commander]

The gnomes.
Praes are just evil, stupid, and wants to conquer the world.

The gnomes are technologically advanced, and directly responsible for killing the technological progression on the continent.

The world. Looking at the wiki, I remembered correctly, they levelled a place that wasn't on Calerinia. since Yan Tei is the only place that has records of them. Wiped out the most powerful empire of the time.

Yeah, I want to see them burn as well. If they aren't actively the attack dogs for the status quo for Above and Below, then they are by default.

Let's remember that, if technology advanced, Praes might not

Spoiler

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be fundementally forced into attacking Callow or starving.

They sent out a warning for Nepharious making a FARMING MACHINE.

So the gnomes are basically ensuring the cycle continues indefinitely, or until someone works out to to do crop-rotation or something anf they wipe everyone out.

Vermin.

[The Glyphstone]

The gnomes have only been mentioned once or twice, so it's hard to really say anything concrete about them or their motivations. We know there are certain things they won't tolerate, but other stuff happens that they don't care about. Maybe they're only acting to control technological innovation to an acceptable rate, or maybe certain fields of development are more acceptable than others. Maybe they're all a giant hoax conducted by three squirrels in a trenchcoat with a wand of Apocalypse From The Sky and a schema of Major Illusion.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

Show

It is true that the difference between Good and Evil cultures is comically vague. The games Procerans and the Levant play aren't particularly more moral than those of the Praesi, save that collateral damage is more limited. If a Praesi High Lord wanted to make a similar point, Akil would be dead, as would be Razin, while their retainers would be bled in some demonic sacrifice. An honor duel, while stupid and petty to kill an elite (rival or no) hours before a pivotal battle, at least serves a purpose: keeping the assembled host as focused as possible. If you don't think Akil would be just as likely as Razin to turn a bloody nose into a suicidal charge in the name of honor, you've got a better opinion of the man than I. Rather than having the army split its focus, they removed a damaged elite likely to promote division and nipped that in the bud. That said, the Good side does not come off looking good here.


As much as it would amuse me to read Tariq's part at the end as hubris, however, I don't think he's being smug. I think he's more trying to put a finger on what he might be missing, why the Angels of Mercy might be so nervous. Everything looks right, after all, but something is wrong.

Good to see something happening, though. For the last week or so, I've been channeling Monty Python's Holy Grail: "Git on wit' it!"

Spoiler

Show

On the honor duel: I suspect almost any other character from that culture would have made a sport of it, if they thought they were the superior fighter. Draw some blood, give the other fighter a chance to submit and withdraw their claim, ultimately leave them nursing a grudge and plotting revenge. And being a liability in the chain of command. Yannu doesn't play that game - the same point was made earlier in the one character's memory of running an 'honor raid' into his lands and getting all the raiders back dead. He's running a war, not a political arena, and if you want to take over that job than take it over.. but until then either follow his orders or get the hell out of the way. And if you insist on getting in the way, he'll remove you. Have to keep the war machine running orderly, you see.

For the current assault, remember Yannu is just executing Pilgrim's desires here, although I would guess Pilgrim probably left the exact order of battle up to Yannu after explaining what he wanted to achieve. I don't think 'storm the palisade and take the camp' is actually what Pilgrim is looking for, so the deployment isn't likely to make sense in that regard.. my bet is he's trying to match the Lanterns/other priests + heroic backup against the Drow and Night at dawn, so they can be overwhelmed and removed at the point where Night is weakest, possibly with the aid of a big miraculous ritual timed for that event. The battle deployment is to keep the drow continually engaged and under pressure, so they can't be easily relieved for normal legionaries - if they're stuck in combat when the sun rises the majority of the drow will get slaughtered on the spot, if they try to rotate out while under attack then they open up a weak spot in the defenses and risk having the camp overrun. It's likely to be a losing fight for the attackers until then, but that's why pragmatic, calculating, efficient Yannu is in charge, not somebody who is going to be prone to making emotion-driven decisions that would break the plan to try to save some men or get baited after a target of opportunity..

Pilgrim's worry, I think, is that if you know anything about Drow at all and what Night is then this is a pretty obvious plan. He knows there has to be some contingency to account for it. And he has no idea what it is because Sve Noc isn't letting him look in. That's not something he's used to dealing with, and his previous experience and knowledge of Catherine's history means practically anything he could imagine is legitimately a possibility. Is the entire Legion camp going to disappear and be replaced with an Arcadian magma-swamp? Could happen! All the drow are Night-spawned illusions and most of the camp just snuck out the back while they were fighting literal shadows on the front line? Yeah, why not. I think he'll be rather relieved when he discovers that Catherine just wanted to bludgeon Saint to death with the stored power in her sword-staff.

..speaking of Saint I wonder what Rumena's orders are regarding her? Is he to make a best effort at actually killing her, while night holds and Night runs strong? Just delay her to keep her from simply Swording her way through everything before the rest of the show can play out? Try to get her bantering and monologuing to get more entries in the Tombmaker's Catechism of Sick Burns?

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Book 5, Trust is the Wager

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Also "just as planned" Pilgrim? Really? You, the supposed master of stories, just went "just as planned...?" As your masters brick themselves...?

Bahahahahahahahahahaha!

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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I think Pilgrim is planning on creating a false dawn, and slapping down the drow as a result. But it's not going to work because either the Hellhound is totally onto that, and the Drow will be able to disengage in good order, or the Pilgrim is just going to get slapped down by Cat's new walking stick or the goddesses themselves.

The angels are nervous because they aren't the most powerful thing on the field for the first time in who knows how long. They can't brute force a win like they normally do.

That's my prediction anyways.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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I think Pilgrim is planning on creating a false dawn, and slapping down the drow as a result. But it's not going to work because either the Hellhound is totally onto that, and the Drow will be able to disengage in good order, or the Pilgrim is just going to get slapped down by Cat's new walking stick or the goddesses themselves.

The angels are nervous because they aren't the most powerful thing on the field for the first time in who knows how long. They can't brute force a win like they normally do.

That's my prediction anyways.

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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The problem is with the whole false dawn is it is literally the first and most obvious thing you could do and therefore prepare a counter for. And the massive, MASSIVE problem (as anyone who roleplays with me knows) is Dispel Magic is a great way to absolutely get your day ruined when relying on supernatural effects...

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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The problem is with the whole false dawn is it is literally the first and most obvious thing you could do and therefore prepare a counter for. And the massive, MASSIVE problem (as anyone who roleplays with me knows) is Dispel Magic is a great way to absolutely get your day ruined when relying on supernatural effects...

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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Dispel magic isn't a thing in this universe. The closest thing to dispel magic is Goblin Fire. Now prepare to counter it sure, but the Peregrine is used to having the biggest stick.

The whole False Dawn thing is very obvious. But when has the Peregrine been subtle? He very much has depended on blatant brute force to carry the day pretty much whenever we see him do something. The closest thing we have to an actual scheme from him is trying to draw Cat into a sequence of three fights. Which she saw through the very same day.


Of course he might have a different plan. I just don't have high expectations from him.

[druid91]

Spoiler

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As to the 'Drow might not be able to see in the dark' thing. In earlier chapters, they made a point of Arnuad being fond of Obfuscating stupidity. He deliberately makes himself seem like an idiot so people don't expect clever political machinations from him.

Also, Rumena is now competing with Robber for my favorite Character.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Trust is the Wager

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Dispel magic isn't a thing in this universe. The closest thing to dispel magic is Goblin Fire. Now prepare to counter it sure, but the Peregrine is used to having the biggest stick.

Spoiler

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Not completely true - sure, we haven't seen a generic 'cancel magic' spell, but there's been plenty of countermagic. Skilled mages have been undoing, redirecting, or subverting wards and bindings all over the place, the Callowan knights have anti-magic effects imbued in their armor, Saint is able to cut things that don't technically speaking exist, and I'm pretty sure if somebody used an aspect like Take, Destroy, or Yoink! (.. I mean Steal) on a spell it would look an awful lot like dispelling. (That'd make a fun What-If.. rather than going through Winter, Cat remains Squire until the god-summoning happens, and then Takes it.)

I would guess, based on other descriptions of different magical traditions in this world and the limitations/benefits each has, that you *can't* have a generic Dispel Magic effect. The means you would use to disrupt a Trismegistan spell aren't the same as what you would need to do to a practitioner of a different tradition.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler

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Not completely true - sure, we haven't seen a generic 'cancel magic' spell, but there's been plenty of countermagic. Skilled mages have been undoing, redirecting, or subverting wards and bindings all over the place, the Callowan knights have anti-magic effects imbued in their armor, Saint is able to cut things that don't technically speaking exist, and I'm pretty sure if somebody used an aspect like Take, Destroy, or Yoink! (.. I mean Steal) on a spell it would look an awful lot like dispelling. (That'd make a fun What-If.. rather than going through Winter, Cat remains Squire until the god-summoning happens, and then Takes it.)

I would guess, based on other descriptions of different magical traditions in this world and the limitations/benefits each has, that you *can't* have a generic Dispel Magic effect. The means you would use to disrupt a Trismegistan spell aren't the same as what you would need to do to a practitioner of a different tradition.

Spoiler

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Indeed. I was being metaphorical. Cat won't cast "dispel magic" specifically, but Sve Noc either themselves or through Cat breaking the false dawn spell in half magically amounts to the same thing.

Possible worse, since sometimes, breaking a spell can result in nasty feedback (so like Slashing Dispel, then...!) Dunno if that is explictly the case here, I can't remember, but its common enough a trope it's plausible.

[druid91]

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Indeed. I was being metaphorical. Cat won't cast "dispel magic" specifically, but Sve Noc either themselves or through Cat breaking the false dawn spell in half magically amounts to the same thing.

Possible worse, since sometimes, breaking a spell can result in nasty feedback (so like Slashing Dispel, then...!) Dunno if that is explictly the case here, I can't remember, but its common enough a trope it's plausible.

Spoiler: Dispel

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Last time we saw a working on that scale disrupted was at the Battle of Camps when it was Grey Pilgrim disrupting Cat's Lakeomancy. If you'll recall that broke both Cat and Masego for a while, and that was when Catherine was in full 'Walk off severed limbs' mode.