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  1. - Top - End - #931
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    The Augur triggered things early (it's not entirely clear how, admittedly) with the sole purpose of allowing her cousin to choose whether she wanted the Name or not.
    Reddit has a wonderful write-up of how this happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by /u/GeeJo
    She set up the burnings in the previous chapters, probably by arranging the goblinfire to get into the city:

    “Sometimes there is a need for bleeding,” the Augur said, looking up at the horizon.

    Plumes of smoke had begun to rise, for Salia was burning. She would ask the Gods to forgive her, but she sought no absolution.

    Let her silence drag her all the way to the Hells, if it was what she deserved.

    Those burnings made the White Knight and the Witch of the West accelerate their 'Judgments'. In particular, the Witch raised and crashed a manse in the previous chapter because of the already-present chaos:

    Before Simon could ask where the First Prince had then gone, genuinely bemused, both of them turned when soldiers in the courtyard began to yell in surprise. The lay brother swallowed drily, when he saw what appeared to be an entire manse rise high in the night sky before being suddenly smashed downwards to a chorus of screams.

    That, Simon of Gorgeault thought, rather changed things.

    That demonstration of power led Brother Simon and Prince Renato to set out earlier than expected. They'd planned to go with a full guard, but instead left with just a few horsemen.

    Prince Renato brought only a small escort when they sallied out, all mounted, and provided a mount for Simon as well. There was no point in bringing great strength, for they’d seen rise in the sky how such would be answered. No, best to flee if things went badly and for that horses and few soldiers were best.

    This lets them meet the White Knight and the Witch of the West on the road, which brings Hanno to the Court just before Cordelia is forced to assume a Name to defend herself. Hanno even says himself that they were meant to meet:

    “We are here for a reason, Antigone,” the Ashuran said, almost chidingly. “To meet them, perhaps. Do you know where the First Prince is being held?”

    ...

    “Then you must help us,” Brother Simon says. “For my colleagues will have gathered every sword they can from the city guard and the garrison, every loyal man and woman in the city, but even with the help of loyal princes and the retinues we will find it hard to take the palace.”

    “See?” the White Knight smiled, glancing at his comrade. “Always a reason.”

    Everything that happened was expected to happen. Thanks to the Augur, it just happened a little earlier.

  2. - Top - End - #932
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

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    Looks like Scribe is a goner, probably with Black's blessing.

  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I think its more likely Cat will make a deal with Scribe i think.
    Waste not, want not. Cat suddenly got perfect leverage on a extremely important lever.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  4. - Top - End - #934
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler: Chapter 73
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    Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long for Scribe to move against Malicia.

    Also, put me in the camp that has Cat sparing Scribe and making a deal with her. Cat was almost certainly going to push to have Malicia killed anyways. Scribe's actions has just made it easier to get Black on board with that, and that directly benefits Cat.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
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    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
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    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

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    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

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    Shipping scribe/adjunct now. The sidekick pairing!

    More seriously, killing Scribe would be a waste. Now that Dad is on board with Cat and set to be Emperor he will need his own spy network, and Cat can't turn them into a dependent state without undermining the Accords.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Scribe's play got a lot of Hasenbach's subjects killed, and threatened the accords. Hasenbach herself was badly injured by the ordeal, and is certainly out for blood.

    Cordelia is almost certainly a match for the Black Queen when it comes to determining that people are acting in bad faith - and Cat knows this.
    Maybe I'll be surprised, but as things stand, I think Scribe will be handed over to the First Prince of Procer and made an example of. Doing so will seal the deal on the accords.
    Last edited by Leewei; 2019-09-09 at 02:10 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #937
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
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    Scribe's play got a lot of Hasenbach's subjects killed, and threatened the accords. Hasenbach herself was badly injured by the ordeal, and is certainly out for blood.

    Cordelia is almost certainly a match for the Black Queen when it comes to determining that people are acting in bad faith - and Cat knows this.
    Maybe I'll be surprised, but as things stand, I think Scribe will be handed over to the First Prince of Procer and made an example of. Doing so will seal the deal on the accords.
    Spoiler: Chapter 73
    Show
    It's not really Scribe's play though is it? She had explicit orders to stop the play, orders that she visibly carried out. She failed in those orders, yes. But even Named can fail. Maybe Hasenbach could sniff it out if she met Scribe face to face, but even Cat couldn't actually determine what Scribe's motive was, not until Adjutant gave her the clue.

    I expect that Hasenbach will likely have the expectation that, yes Scribe likely allowed the plot to happen, just so she could visibly be seen taking steps to help stop it, in order to prove the loyalty of herself and Black. I don't think she would like that, but that's the sort of thing that Hasenbach would accept.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
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    here[/URL]
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    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  8. - Top - End - #938
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

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    Malicia is the second place villain after Bard in this story. She let Keter out, she just came a second away from destroying Procer, and Praes can't sign the Accords if she is in charge. Having a casus belli against her while exonerating Callow is good for everyone. Throwing Scribe under the bus makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  9. - Top - End - #939
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    It's not really Scribe's play though is it? She had explicit orders to stop the play, orders that she visibly carried out. She failed in those orders, yes. But even Named can fail. Maybe Hasenbach could sniff it out if she met Scribe face to face, but even Cat couldn't actually determine what Scribe's motive was, not until Adjutant gave her the clue.
    I do think this is the relevant bit for handling Cordelia.
    There isnt any direct evidence linking this to be Scribe's idea. So its assumed to be Malicia plotting.
    And Cordelia's own spymaster will explain how Scribe helped stop the plot.
    Its impossible to know for certain how long Scribe was truely around.
    So the official story, that Scribe helped block the plot by order from Black would not have reason to be contested.

    Especially not since right now, then there is an "official" version of events, that benefits all involved parties.
    Cordelia desperatly needs the alliance with Cat, since she is about to get (censored) by zombies.
    Cat need an alliance with Cordelia, because thats nececary to even try and break the cycle of wars.


    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  10. - Top - End - #940
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I’ve recently discovered this web series and here’s my take (I’ve stopped towards the end of book 3)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Strong points:

    1) The author has put a lot of work in the lore (geography, language, history, magic, cultures… etc.) and it shows.

    2) The main character, far from being overpowered, goes through hardships, makes a lot of mistakes and not the kind you can brush off. Some of them actually have everlasting (bad) consequences. Of course Catherine keeps on gaining in power, but if she didn’t, she would certainly be killed and the story would end.

    3) A diverse cast with various motivations, running all across the good/evil spectrum.

    4) Character growth (or regression).

    5) Some original takes: the dwarves not declining but on the rise, the gnomes being technological terrors who can erase any kingdom/empire at any moment... and so on.


    Weak points:

    1) The writing style. Maybe it’s because English isn’t my mother tongue, but I find the writing quite heavy-handed at times. Especially during the battle scenes. By book 3 and the 2nd battle of Liesse, I didn’t even bothered reading who was doing what, what kind of magic field was raised, what spell was cast, what intricate maneuver was made. All I had to do was reading the dialogues only (5% of the text) so I could get to the important part: who fights who, who betrays who, who gloats about their evil plan and who dies.
    It’s like listening to someone talking about their motorbike when you’re not a mechanics enthusiast. If they talk about the amazing adventures they had on it, it’s interesting. But if they just blather about its equipment, its spare parts, its speed control, its suspension rods, its augmentations, its price… etc, you’d get bored very quick. A lot of the war scenes reminded me of a bad Warhammer novel for the drag they were. However, it's the first web series I ever read, so its writing quality might be above the rest.

    2) More often than not, Catherine’s inner monologues are put right in the middle of a dialogue, which makes the conversation more difficult to follow.
    For example:
    Character A: asks Catherine something.
    Catherine: ponders for a while about what character’s words B evokes in her. Then thinks (for a whole paragraph) about something thinly related but completely different like the current political struggles at work and their results, the history of a certain region, her last conversation with character C, what she had for dinner… and so on.
    Catherine: finally responds to character A.
    Reader: “Wait, what was character A talking about again?”

    3) The spelling is outrageously bad, especially in the beginning. Even by book 3, there isn’t a single chapter without grammar or typing errors. Even after the commentators gave a hand in spotting the mistakes, there are still plenty of them. Does somebody know if English is the author’s first language? (no sarcasm, I'm sincerely curious) Though to be fair, I’m the kind of person who gets infuriated when they come across an English speaker writing “it’s” instead of “its”. One day I even came across this error WRITTEN BY HAND (I mean WTF! What was their thought process? “Oh, I’m going to put a cedilla just in the middle of this possessive pronoun. Har, har! I have no idea what I’m doing!!”)

    4) (Very personal take) I know it sounds superficial (and it is) but there should be a special place in hell for those who still describe characters by their hair/eye color when the reader has already known their name and function for 30 chapters. Can you imagine Dumbledore being called the White-haired elder or the Blue-eyed old man in the 6th book ? It’s just ridiculous and (quite) annoying. The 100th time they called the Black Knight “the green-eyed man” or the “dark-haired man” I started to think someone was in dire need of a writing lesson… At this point of the story, you call your characters by their name, their status, their job or even by their origins… Not by physical attributes which are common to millions of people!

    5) I wouldn’t say Catherine’s attachment to Black is completely illogical, but it doesn’t look very fleshed out beside: “Oh, I know you’re using me as a tool and you are more machine than man but I would have never gone that far without your training, and I also kinda sympathize with some of your thinking and you are useful to me… so I suppose you’re my new father now!” Urh.


    Neutral points (or weak points that don't matter too much):

    1) I don’t get what’s the author’s take on the fight between Good and Evil in this universe. At first, it might look like Good and Evil are portrayed as obedience versus disobedience towards the Gods above. Morally speaking, it would make the words "Good" and "Evil" meaningless and nothing more than banners of different colors. Therefore, the fight between Good and Evil would look as endearing as Blue v. Red, Pizza v. Cheeseburger, Salt v. Sugar... etc.
    However, one side does crucifixions, the other doesn’t. Even under Malicia & co., the Empire still fully endorses these kinds of atrocities. And they will burn the world to the ground rather than losing their power. However, it looks like the author tries to reduce Good and Evil to a question of cosmic allegiance by going "hey, look at all the bad things the good guys do! Are they that different? Hmm! Makes you think!"

    2) It's a shame we haven’t seen any faction that refuses to follow the Gods' laws and is still decent. Because, on their best day, the utilitarian Empire still practices cultural genocide.
    Black justifies it by pretending he just wants to put an end to the eternal struggle between Good and Evil (at least for half of the continent). But there’s nothing altruistic behind that since he chose the side that crucifies people.
    In conclusion: I don’t enjoy this web novel enough to go on. However I’m still a bit curious about of how it will end. I’ll just go back to the forum from time to time in order to learn about the latest developments.

  11. - Top - End - #941
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    A few scattered responses.

    RE: Erratic Errata's native tongue: It seems to be non-English, and the general consensus seems to be that it's French, but I don't think they've confirmed or denied it.

    Re: Referring to Black by appearance: He is, as far as I know, the only one consistently referred to like this. This is in part because his appearance IS unique. The green eyes in particularly are seen as incredibly creepy and unnatural by Praesi. It might be easy to forget, but the Praesi are black, and tend toward African features, skin, eye, and hair colors. Amadeus has a more European appearance due to his ancestry, so him having pale skin, green eyes, and black, straight hair is unsettling to Praesi. He is almost always referred to or thought of as the "green eyed man" by people scared absolutely ****less of the way his eyes seem to glow in the dark and pierce right through them. There's also probably some symbology there involving the usual connotations of "green eyed" meaning jealous or grasping; Black is intensely jealous of how "easy" the side of Good has it and has made it his life's purpose to spitefully throw the game board to the ground because of it.

    Re: Good vs Evil: It gets more muddled as the books go on. The tail end of book 3 and the start of 4 in particular start to show that William "I'm going to brainwash a bunch of innocent people into my unflinching army against evil" Lone Swordsman (whatever his actual last name is) is not an outlier when it comes to Well Intentioned Extremism among the the Good side.

    Re: Nations that don't follow the Gods: Keep in mind that Praes DOES follow the gods; the Gods Below. Look to Callow for a Good aligned nation that just kind of pays lip service to the Gods, or to a lesser extent Procer.

  12. - Top - End - #942
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimad View Post
    I’ve recently discovered this web series and here’s my take (I’ve stopped towards the end of book 3)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Strong points:

    1) The author has put a lot of work in the lore (geography, language, history, magic, cultures… etc.) and it shows.

    2) The main character, far from being overpowered, goes through hardships, makes a lot of mistakes and not the kind you can brush off. Some of them actually have everlasting (bad) consequences. Of course Catherine keeps on gaining in power, but if she didn’t, she would certainly be killed and the story would end.

    3) A diverse cast with various motivations, running all across the good/evil spectrum.

    4) Character growth (or regression).

    5) Some original takes: the dwarves not declining but on the rise, the gnomes being technological terrors who can erase any kingdom/empire at any moment... and so on.


    Weak points:

    1) The writing style. Maybe it’s because English isn’t my mother tongue, but I find the writing quite heavy-handed at times. Especially during the battle scenes. By book 3 and the 2nd battle of Liesse, I didn’t even bothered reading who was doing what, what kind of magic field was raised, what spell was cast, what intricate maneuver was made. All I had to do was reading the dialogues only (5% of the text) so I could get to the important part: who fights who, who betrays who, who gloats about their evil plan and who dies.
    It’s like listening to someone talking about their motorbike when you’re not a mechanics enthusiast. If they talk about the amazing adventures they had on it, it’s interesting. But if they just blather about its equipment, its spare parts, its speed control, its suspension rods, its augmentations, its price… etc, you’d get bored very quick. A lot of the war scenes reminded me of a bad Warhammer novel for the drag they were. However, it's the first web series I ever read, so its writing quality might be above the rest.

    2) More often than not, Catherine’s inner monologues are put right in the middle of a dialogue, which makes the conversation more difficult to follow.
    For example:
    Character A: asks Catherine something.
    Catherine: ponders for a while about what character’s words B evokes in her. Then thinks (for a whole paragraph) about something thinly related but completely different like the current political struggles at work and their results, the history of a certain region, her last conversation with character C, what she had for dinner… and so on.
    Catherine: finally responds to character A.
    Reader: “Wait, what was character A talking about again?”

    3) The spelling is outrageously bad, especially in the beginning. Even by book 3, there isn’t a single chapter without grammar or typing errors. Even after the commentators gave a hand in spotting the mistakes, there are still plenty of them. Does somebody know if English is the author’s first language? (no sarcasm, I'm sincerely curious) Though to be fair, I’m the kind of person who gets infuriated when they come across an English speaker writing “it’s” instead of “its”. One day I even came across this error WRITTEN BY HAND (I mean WTF! What was their thought process? “Oh, I’m going to put a cedilla just in the middle of this possessive pronoun. Har, har! I have no idea what I’m doing!!”)

    4) (Very personal take) I know it sounds superficial (and it is) but there should be a special place in hell for those who still describe characters by their hair/eye color when the reader has already known their name and function for 30 chapters. Can you imagine Dumbledore being called the White-haired elder or the Blue-eyed old man in the 6th book ? It’s just ridiculous and (quite) annoying. The 100th time they called the Black Knight “the green-eyed man” or the “dark-haired man” I started to think someone was in dire need of a writing lesson… At this point of the story, you call your characters by their name, their status, their job or even by their origins… Not by physical attributes which are common to millions of people!

    5) I wouldn’t say Catherine’s attachment to Black is completely illogical, but it doesn’t look very fleshed out beside: “Oh, I know you’re using me as a tool and you are more machine than man but I would have never gone that far without your training, and I also kinda sympathize with some of your thinking and you are useful to me… so I suppose you’re my new father now!” Urh.


    Neutral points (or weak points that don't matter too much):

    1) I don’t get what’s the author’s take on the fight between Good and Evil in this universe. At first, it might look like Good and Evil are portrayed as obedience versus disobedience towards the Gods above. Morally speaking, it would make the words "Good" and "Evil" meaningless and nothing more than banners of different colors. Therefore, the fight between Good and Evil would look as endearing as Blue v. Red, Pizza v. Cheeseburger, Salt v. Sugar... etc.
    However, one side does crucifixions, the other doesn’t. Even under Malicia & co., the Empire still fully endorses these kinds of atrocities. And they will burn the world to the ground rather than losing their power. However, it looks like the author tries to reduce Good and Evil to a question of cosmic allegiance by going "hey, look at all the bad things the good guys do! Are they that different? Hmm! Makes you think!"

    2) It's a shame we haven’t seen any faction that refuses to follow the Gods' laws and is still decent. Because, on their best day, the utilitarian Empire still practices cultural genocide.
    Black justifies it by pretending he just wants to put an end to the eternal struggle between Good and Evil (at least for half of the continent). But there’s nothing altruistic behind that since he chose the side that crucifies people.
    In conclusion: I don’t enjoy this web novel enough to go on. However I’m still a bit curious about of how it will end. I’ll just go back to the forum from time to time in order to learn about the latest developments.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Yeah, I can see where your coming from. I'm not a fan of it either, and kind of still agree with your the stuff about the morality of the setting. I mean to me, I can kind of see all this being the author examining or criticizing Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and its morality specifically.

    like cosmic morality that can be reduced down to team jersey morality? all the usual fantasy races? powerful wizards? different planes? heroes that seem to just be murderhobo weapons chosen by angels? gnomes that are inexplicably powerful rather than just comic relief? this whole web series is like as if someone took all the online discussions of DnD morality and decided to play it out as a story with Catherine being the "Real World Morality" representative, Black and Malicia representing the people who like think they can be evil overlords more competently than some cartoon character and thus style themselves "Lawful Evil" as if its a badge of honor, William representing all the people who go "Orcs are there for killing.", the Saint of Swords representing "Uncompromising Lawful Stupid Paladins", The Grey Pilgrim is basically a Gandalf expy, and the Dead King is basically just another "Lawful Evil, I'm going to do it competently" person in Very Powerful Lich Wizard
    flavor. and so on and so forth. It doesn't make much sense unless you have the right background to understand what this all is inspired, which is definitely a weak point, and I think the main appeal of it to most people reading it is that its DnD 3.5 morality examined from a wildly different viewpoint because a lot of people on here are DnD 3.5 fans. I'm not a fan of 3.5, personally.

    and yeah, it does feel like someone talking about the mechanics of this rather than actually telling a story at times when Catherine and the Woe talk their plans out and what they're going to do next. Thats also a weakness of it. I definitely wouldn't consider it one of my favorite series ever, I don't hate it, its pretty okay? Like it could really use some cutting out of the boring logistics stuff that ends up never really mattering anyways. I agree and can tell you having the read the entire thing, I do not remember a time when any of what they discussed turned out to actually be important.

    This web series is basically a Dnd 3.5 story told from the point of view of somebody who doesn't like DnD 3.5. and that is to its detriment, because it could've done this all better by being more nuanced and picking something better and wider to examine and explore. like probably keep the narrative combat stuff, but there are some things it could do better in other areas.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-09-11 at 04:21 PM.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  13. - Top - End - #943
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimad View Post
    I’ve recently discovered this web series and here’s my take (I’ve stopped towards the end of book 3)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Strong points:

    1) The author has put a lot of work in the lore (geography, language, history, magic, cultures… etc.) and it shows.

    2) The main character, far from being overpowered, goes through hardships, makes a lot of mistakes and not the kind you can brush off. Some of them actually have everlasting (bad) consequences. Of course Catherine keeps on gaining in power, but if she didn’t, she would certainly be killed and the story would end.

    3) A diverse cast with various motivations, running all across the good/evil spectrum.

    4) Character growth (or regression).

    5) Some original takes: the dwarves not declining but on the rise, the gnomes being technological terrors who can erase any kingdom/empire at any moment... and so on.


    Weak points:

    1) The writing style. Maybe it’s because English isn’t my mother tongue, but I find the writing quite heavy-handed at times. Especially during the battle scenes. By book 3 and the 2nd battle of Liesse, I didn’t even bothered reading who was doing what, what kind of magic field was raised, what spell was cast, what intricate maneuver was made. All I had to do was reading the dialogues only (5% of the text) so I could get to the important part: who fights who, who betrays who, who gloats about their evil plan and who dies.
    It’s like listening to someone talking about their motorbike when you’re not a mechanics enthusiast. If they talk about the amazing adventures they had on it, it’s interesting. But if they just blather about its equipment, its spare parts, its speed control, its suspension rods, its augmentations, its price… etc, you’d get bored very quick. A lot of the war scenes reminded me of a bad Warhammer novel for the drag they were. However, it's the first web series I ever read, so its writing quality might be above the rest.

    2) More often than not, Catherine’s inner monologues are put right in the middle of a dialogue, which makes the conversation more difficult to follow.
    For example:
    Character A: asks Catherine something.
    Catherine: ponders for a while about what character’s words B evokes in her. Then thinks (for a whole paragraph) about something thinly related but completely different like the current political struggles at work and their results, the history of a certain region, her last conversation with character C, what she had for dinner… and so on.
    Catherine: finally responds to character A.
    Reader: “Wait, what was character A talking about again?”

    3) The spelling is outrageously bad, especially in the beginning. Even by book 3, there isn’t a single chapter without grammar or typing errors. Even after the commentators gave a hand in spotting the mistakes, there are still plenty of them. Does somebody know if English is the author’s first language? (no sarcasm, I'm sincerely curious) Though to be fair, I’m the kind of person who gets infuriated when they come across an English speaker writing “it’s” instead of “its”. One day I even came across this error WRITTEN BY HAND (I mean WTF! What was their thought process? “Oh, I’m going to put a cedilla just in the middle of this possessive pronoun. Har, har! I have no idea what I’m doing!!”)

    4) (Very personal take) I know it sounds superficial (and it is) but there should be a special place in hell for those who still describe characters by their hair/eye color when the reader has already known their name and function for 30 chapters. Can you imagine Dumbledore being called the White-haired elder or the Blue-eyed old man in the 6th book ? It’s just ridiculous and (quite) annoying. The 100th time they called the Black Knight “the green-eyed man” or the “dark-haired man” I started to think someone was in dire need of a writing lesson… At this point of the story, you call your characters by their name, their status, their job or even by their origins… Not by physical attributes which are common to millions of people!

    5) I wouldn’t say Catherine’s attachment to Black is completely illogical, but it doesn’t look very fleshed out beside: “Oh, I know you’re using me as a tool and you are more machine than man but I would have never gone that far without your training, and I also kinda sympathize with some of your thinking and you are useful to me… so I suppose you’re my new father now!” Urh.


    Neutral points (or weak points that don't matter too much):

    1) I don’t get what’s the author’s take on the fight between Good and Evil in this universe. At first, it might look like Good and Evil are portrayed as obedience versus disobedience towards the Gods above. Morally speaking, it would make the words "Good" and "Evil" meaningless and nothing more than banners of different colors. Therefore, the fight between Good and Evil would look as endearing as Blue v. Red, Pizza v. Cheeseburger, Salt v. Sugar... etc.
    However, one side does crucifixions, the other doesn’t. Even under Malicia & co., the Empire still fully endorses these kinds of atrocities. And they will burn the world to the ground rather than losing their power. However, it looks like the author tries to reduce Good and Evil to a question of cosmic allegiance by going "hey, look at all the bad things the good guys do! Are they that different? Hmm! Makes you think!"

    2) It's a shame we haven’t seen any faction that refuses to follow the Gods' laws and is still decent. Because, on their best day, the utilitarian Empire still practices cultural genocide.
    Black justifies it by pretending he just wants to put an end to the eternal struggle between Good and Evil (at least for half of the continent). But there’s nothing altruistic behind that since he chose the side that crucifies people.
    In conclusion: I don’t enjoy this web novel enough to go on. However I’m still a bit curious about of how it will end. I’ll just go back to the forum from time to time in order to learn about the latest developments.
    The story is a post-modern commentary on the high fantasy and sword and sorcery genres. Named are the unlikely heroes or dramatic villains, the real villains are a mix of fantasy authors/the readers represented by the gods wanting to read the same stories again and again, and Cat is a modernly moraled person trying to force through an arms treaty.

    It is a fun read if you are into the genres and like trope dismantling, like the Stanley Principle for fantasy books.
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    I think the major aspect of the battle between good and evil is hidden in the first books prologue: this battle is born from a disagreement between the gods on the agency of mortals - namely, whether they should be given free reign to be everything they can be, or if they should brought to heel and bound by the gods' will. The catch is, they never said which perspective is the "good" one and which is the "evil" one. Personally, I believe the free-will argument is the "evil" one and the brought-to-heel argument is "good". The forces of good are focused on making everyone adhere to their rules, while the evil side holds that "anything you in your power to do is your right to do if you wish it" and makes no further demands.

    That is a very different dividing line than D&D's "I will suffer for your gain" vs "You will suffer for my gain" mentality. It is also, I think, a much more interesting angle to explore, especially for cultures raised to revere liberty as the purest form of good.
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    Some points I recently dislike.
    - Cats long internal monologues ... cunningly arriving at the unlikliest conclusions.
    - Cat randomly liking some people and declaring others enemies (eg malicia).
    - Her being unable to compromise is in character, but the hypocrisy is so strong.
    - The practical side does not matter any more. Stories and names do. For all that we are told that common people decide the fate of the world, one named trumps all of them.

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    The catch is, they never said which
    I did think it became fairly obviously fairly quickly. But thats likely due to cultural difference.

    - Cat randomly liking some people and declaring others enemies (eg malicia).
    Yeah nothing random here. Or did you miss Malicia assasinating a long line of Cat's personal friends?

    - Her being unable to compromise is in character, but the hypocrisy is so strong.
    Her list of compromises are pretty long.
    Most noteworthy is when she gave up all claims to Winter free of charge.

    - The practical side does not matter any more. Stories and names do. For all that we are told that common people decide the fate of the world, one named trumps all of them.
    I dont know where you have been told that the common people decide anything.
    This is a world of gods, heroes and villains. Common people have likely even less to say than in our world.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    One of Cat's biggest complaints is specifically that common, not-Named people have no agency or power in the world...

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    One of Cat's biggest complaints is specifically that common, not-Named people have no agency or power in the world...
    and the entire recent climax of Cordelia's story recently was her not becoming Named yet demonstrating power and agency. so its very much a "this is absent from the world but the author wants to show the heroes starting the beginning of this thing be introduced". kind of thing. which is kind of on the same level of complaint as saying "why hasn't the evil already been defeated" in a good vs. evil story. its complaining about the journey to the destination not being the starting destination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    and the entire recent climax of Cordelia's story recently was her not becoming Named yet demonstrating power and agency. so its very much a "this is absent from the world but the author wants to show the heroes starting the beginning of this thing be introduced". kind of thing. which is kind of on the same level of complaint as saying "why hasn't the evil already been defeated" in a good vs. evil story. its complaining about the journey to the destination not being the starting destination.
    She is literally royalty. There is nothing common about her though.
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    Personally, I just really enjoy a load of characters I can actually identify with for the first time since, like... Ever.

    It's really novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    She is literally royalty. There is nothing common about her though.
    Touche.

    but given most other royalty in this world seem to be some form of Named to the point where the standard offer of both Heaven and Hell is "now rule this place as its storied ruler with your power!" and yadda yadda, she is at least establishing some precedent for someone not backed by cosmic forces to be in the position and deal with people who are chosen by the cosmos. its like being a mortal ruler in Exalted, sure your probably still in some position of privilege but at least your not being warped by these cosmic powers to make you even worse at ruling because you have these heroic drives in you making you be larger than life.
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    I would challenge the notion that being named makes you worse at ruling.
    Regular humans are already excellent at being utterly awful towards each other.
    I doubt Above or Below can really improve on that.

    And a named ruler would at least be likely to get some tools to improve efficiency,
    and likely cut down on corruption, in the kingdom. If the King/Queen can see when your lying,
    then its likely to cut down a lot on officials taking bribes, or skimming the tax money.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I would challenge the notion that being named makes you worse at ruling.
    Regular humans are already excellent at being utterly awful towards each other.
    I doubt Above or Below can really improve on that.

    And a named ruler would at least be likely to get some tools to improve efficiency,
    and likely cut down on corruption, in the kingdom. If the King/Queen can see when your lying,
    then its likely to cut down a lot on officials taking bribes, or skimming the tax money.
    My reading is that the issue is not so much that Named would be worse rulers but the fact that Named draw stories to themselves and stories concerning Named rulers have much higher likelihood to affect the whole nation.

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    Hmm.. thats of course a fair point.
    And likely the price to pay for having a more gifted ruler.
    Well.. its still very possible that a lot of those stories would not reach down to affect the common people.

    Besides that, new chapter.
    I continue to like Hanno more and more. He has some good argumentation for how he choses to work.
    And clarify a bit about how it works as well.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    She is literally royalty. There is nothing common about her though.
    You aren't wrong, but being royalty is not much compared to being Named. Rozala mentions at one point recognizing the inherent irony of a princess - a princess with real political and military power, no less - lamenting her lack of agency, but it was true. Even as the second most powerful political force in the Principate, Rozala is just a side figure in the stories she finds herself in. The most agency we've seen of her is her voluntarily surrendering her crown, and even that decision was summarily overturned by her "betters".

    Cat is a former Named (though still considered one by Hanno), who has continued to maintain her relevance and agency in things (and, in fact, clawed more and more of it into her grasp since losing her Name). Cordelia manages to hold relevance and agency even in spite of never having a name, and indeed actively refuses a Name when it's all but literally forced upon her. Heck the refusal literally scars her permanently, it was so forceful.
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    You aren't wrong, but being royalty is not much compared to being Named. Rozala mentions at one point recognizing the inherent irony of a princess - a princess with real political and military power, no less - lamenting her lack of agency, but it was true. Even as the second most powerful political force in the Principate, Rozala is just a side figure in the stories she finds herself in. The most agency we've seen of her is her voluntarily surrendering her crown, and even that decision was summarily overturned by her "betters".

    Cat is a former Named (though still considered one by Hanno), who has continued to maintain her relevance and agency in things (and, in fact, clawed more and more of it into her grasp since losing her Name). Cordelia manages to hold relevance and agency even in spite of never having a name, and indeed actively refuses a Name when it's all but literally forced upon her. Heck the refusal literally scars her permanently, it was so forceful.
    I disagree. I dont think the whinning of a Princess should be given to much weight here. Not when the main reason Rozala lacked agency were that for her, agency were dictated by her lawful ruler.
    But in general, nations are not ruled by named. Cordelia isnt an exception here. And likely one of the biggest and most influential events, the 10th crusade, were directly a result of human politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I disagree. I dont think the whinning of a Princess should be given to much weight here. Not when the main reason Rozala lacked agency were that for her, agency were dictated by her lawful ruler.
    But in general, nations are not ruled by named. Cordelia isnt an exception here. And likely one of the biggest and most influential events, the 10th crusade, were directly a result of human politics.
    Actually... It seems like she is. The League of Free cities, when ruled, that ruler has a Name. Levant is ruled by the Named Bloodlines. The Good King/Queen of Callow. The Dread Empress/Emperor of Praes.

    That leaves Mercantis, Ashur, and Procer as the only civilized nations who aren't ruled by named... And we don't actually know who rules the city of bought and sold at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Actually... It seems like she is. The League of Free cities, when ruled, that ruler has a Name. Levant is ruled by the Named Bloodlines. The Good King/Queen of Callow. The Dread Empress/Emperor of Praes.

    That leaves Mercantis, Ashur, and Procer as the only civilized nations who aren't ruled by named... And we don't actually know who rules the city of bought and sold at all.
    Procer's government structure seems to be almost specifically designed to prevent it's ruler becoming a Name, with each individual principality and its people being more loyal to/concerned with the matters of their own province rather than the matters of Procer or having loyalty toward the First Prince. It guides people's thoughts away from telling stories about/mythologizing the First Prince position, so you don't get the sort of cultural traction on the position like you do with the 'King of Callow standing against the Evil Forces of Praes' or the 'Sorcerer-Kings of Praes calling demons from the Tower'. Probably why Bard was trying to maneuver Cordelia into making it a Name, it'd give her leverage over one of the major players on the continent that she didn't previously have.

    Mercantis.. I think the tropic approach there would be a council of the most successful merchant families? Although there could also be a Named position like Merchant Prince (Most Serene Doge?) leading it, but I would expect something similar to Procer where squabbling over who actually gets that position and the amount of power they're allowed would restrict the cultural impact of the title and make it hard for a Name to form around it.

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    Actually... It seems like she is. The League of Free cities, when ruled, that ruler has a Name. Levant is ruled by the Named Bloodlines. The Good King/Queen of Callow. The Dread Empress/Emperor of Praes.
    Has had a named ruler some time in its history is not the same as normally being ruled by a named.
    I think it rather clearly showed from the state of the League of Free cities, that the Hierach was a legendary position that was only seen rarely.
    And yes Levant has a weird worship of their named bloodlines, but for most of the time, it seems clear that its rulers are only descendants of named, not named themselves.
    We also dont know how many of Callow's Kings have actually been named. Only than some of them likely has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I would challenge the notion that being named makes you worse at ruling.
    Regular humans are already excellent at being utterly awful towards each other.
    I doubt Above or Below can really improve on that.

    And a named ruler would at least be likely to get some tools to improve efficiency,
    and likely cut down on corruption, in the kingdom. If the King/Queen can see when your lying,
    then its likely to cut down a lot on officials taking bribes, or skimming the tax money.
    Well...I think your overlooking some things here.

    A Named ruler also has a danger of starting to follow story logic rather than real world logic.

    Like all the Dread Emperors and Empresses. suddenly they become The Villain and once they identify with that, they start making flying fortresses and crazy experiments and building pits and whatnot. Amadeus has said that other Black Knights weren't like him at all and outright embraced their role and powers, becoming incredibly powerful but also really stupid because of it.

    meanwhile, lets look at the Saint of Swords. her story one of unwavering stand against evil, killing every threat her entire life, with no compromise with the enemy. and when time came to compromise, she didn't and died. and all those heroes that Cat and Black knight killed? they all charged in thinking that just because they're The Heroes they automatically win, when even narrative rules can be exploited.

    and when you start thinking your life is a story, and let the story you think your in control your actions, well you get things like Traitorous, or any of the stupider heroes you see in the series. and then there is Malicia, supposedly a very reasonable person.....but then she decided to lean into the story of a Dread empress and being building a doomsday weapon, then a whole bunch of other stuff that makes her start sliding back into being just another crazy dread empress. and the former Heiress ghost here? she is a perfect example of thinking she was in the story her name gave her.

    and once one starts thinking in that narrative, letting it confine and define oneself....well one kind of stop thinking of people as people, now don't they? after all, they're the "main character", and everyone else are side characters. they get caught up in the constant story beats and cliches they need to work with, that they don't consider the people around them. which is realistic!

    after all, people in real life do stupid things because of the little narratives they make about themselves in real life all the time, convincing themselves of this and that to make themselves the center of their little world and that if they just do this or that, it'll all work out fine. its no surprise that when you give people awareness that the story logic is real and that you gain benefits from considering the big overarching narrative cliches over actually interacting with people as people, you end up with a long line of villains that never really succeeded followed by Named that decided to thinking differently for once, and a long line of heroes that lean into their tropes but have become inflexible in their thinking because what they have always done has always worked and because their force of good leans hard into an "all-knowing utilitarian force of cosmic good you can't comprehend" kind of narrative that has little concept of law being legitimate in a time where individual rights is far from being born as an idea in peoples minds yet.

    you can't deny that the story logic is a big force in this world and can override a rulers consideration of their subjects, which has been shown many times from the Tyrant, to Malicia, to the Hierarch, to many other Dread Emperors, and I doubt, given the war-torn nature of Callow and such, that those "good kings" were any better. after all, if they had the realpolitik to and competence to recognize the problems of Praes and the underlying reasons why they keep fighting, rather than going "Praes is evil, so we're going to fight them, only choice that matters, no compromise because we're Good and they're Evil." wouldn't they have already solved this kind of thing?

    sure there has been more political and real world thinking suddenly cropping up....but if we look further into the past, this is a transitional, perhaps every revolutionary time in this universe, one where many exceptions are occurring due to various conditions that had to go right for it to start happening at all. everything from Malicia and Black existing leading to a more reasonable Praes, to a Callowan suddenly taking on a Praesi name rather than following a Callowan narrative, to an orc suddenly taking on a new name of Adjutant, to villains winning against heroes, to Catherine uniting the Faerie realm, even to getting the trust of a hero on the other side of the fence to start considering this treaty she has, and finally this latest development of Cordelia refusing to be Named, are all pretty exceptional breaks of various narrative cycles in this universe.

    and that was only perpetuated because people kept leaning into the stories and letting the story define the world through its rulers, remember that Names get more powerful the more you lean into the story, and less powerful the more you think real and use it as just another tool like Black does, and that both Amadeus and the former Thief, have both lost their Named status. sure, people can be horrible without the stories, but denying that the stories don't lead people into perpetuating these narrative cycles that have nothing to do with actual horribleness and everything to do the kind of fantasy hero thinking that can be cartoonish in its logic.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-09-14 at 05:45 AM.
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