A Practical Guide to Evil

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Machinations

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This isn't a move meant to damage Cat or the Arsenal, it's meant to cripple or destroy the Truce and Terms (if Cat's suspicions are correct, and I see no reason not to assume they are). The DK would attack the Arsenal because it's a threat to his armies. The Bard would try and kill the Terms because they're a threat to the very core of her reason to exist.

Spoiler: Machinations

Show

On the other hand, while indeed it is in Bard's best interest to stop the Truce and Terms destroying the whole Narrative entirely - and has kinda has to do it now, as the whole comradery-we're-not-so-different Story broguth about by the whole hero/villain team-up thing is a powerful story in its own right - one suspects that Neshy would just laugh his little head off if Bard manages to break the Grand Alliance up by doing so or at least cause the deaths of multiple important figures on the side. Cat's modesty aside, loosing her will cripple the Grand Alliance. So Neshy has a vested interest in not only not interfering, but if he could be very lucky, do his own super-vlllain team-up with the apparntly oblivious Bard and pour on some fuel to the fire.

I know I'd be crippling myself laughing right now if I was him.

This also goes, once again, to show the Bard and the Narritive itself are just as moustache-twirling, black-hattedly wearing capital-E Evil as the gods that spawned the whole thing. And she's so arrogant and/o rpetty and/or a control freak that she's more interested in preseiving the Narrative from that, she's confindent that she can do this without getting everyone wiped out by Neshy so there are niether Heroes nor Villains to fight; and that is far from a given at this point.)

[druid91]

Spoiler: Machinations

Show

On the other hand, while indeed it is in Bard's best interest to stop the Truce and Terms destroying the whole Narrative entirely - and has kinda has to do it now, as the whole comradery-we're-not-so-different Story broguth about by the whole hero/villain team-up thing is a powerful story in its own right - one suspects that Neshy would just laugh his little head off if Bard manages to break the Grand Alliance up by doing so or at least cause the deaths of multiple important figures on the side. Cat's modesty aside, loosing her will cripple the Grand Alliance. So Neshy has a vested interest in not only not interfering, but if he could be very lucky, do his own super-vlllain team-up with the apparntly oblivious Bard and pour on some fuel to the fire.

I know I'd be crippling myself laughing right now if I was him.

This also goes, once again, to show the Bard and the Narritive itself are just as moustache-twirling, black-hattedly wearing capital-E Evil as the gods that spawned the whole thing. And she's so arrogant and/o rpetty and/or a control freak that she's more interested in preseiving the Narrative from that, she's confindent that she can do this without getting everyone wiped out by Neshy so there are niether Heroes nor Villains to fight; and that is far from a given at this point.)

To be fair. If she fails at getting rid of him, she can always try again later.

[lord_khaine]

This isn't a move meant to damage Cat or the Arsenal, it's meant to cripple or destroy the Truce and Terms (if Cat's suspicions are correct, and I see no reason not to assume they are). The DK would attack the Arsenal because it's a threat to his armies. The Bard would try and kill the Terms because they're a threat to the very core of her reason to exist.

I meanwhile see reason to assume they are not. Cat isnt perfect. She has made massive mistakes before.
And it isnt impossible the Bard has a finger in here. But in that case its hasty to assume its to break the Truce.
As pointed out earlier, she has spend generations working on getting rid of the dead king. A victory here would potentially make him to strong to deal with.

I also cant see where people get the weird idea that the Truce is a danger for the Bard.
Since its not supported by anything besides a general dislike of the Bard.
But whats important to keep in mind is, that the Truce does not actually affect the Bard in any way.
Or does anyone seriously think it will do anything but make the Bard's job easier if people stop calling angels and demons?
Remember the fighting will be able to pick up as soon as The Dead King is done.
Cat is mostly trying to force in a Geneve convention for warfare, and outlaw a lot of nasty stuff.

On the other hand, while indeed it is in Bard's best interest to stop the Truce and Terms destroying the whole Narrative entirely - and has kinda has to do it now, as the whole comradery-we're-not-so-different Story broguth about by the whole hero/villain team-up thing is a powerful story in its own right - one suspects that Neshy would just laugh his little head off if Bard manages to break the Grand Alliance up by doing so or at least cause the deaths of multiple important figures on the side. Cat's modesty aside, loosing her will cripple the Grand Alliance. So Neshy has a vested interest in not only not interfering, but if he could be very lucky, do his own super-vlllain team-up with the apparntly oblivious Bard and pour on some fuel to the fire.

As already explained, the Bard dont have any reason to care about the Truce and Terms.
They will not break the game, just expand the rules. The conflict will continue. Just with less civilian involvement.

This also goes, once again, to show the Bard and the Narritive itself are just as moustache-twirling, black-hattedly wearing capital-E Evil as the gods that spawned the whole thing. And she's so arrogant and/o rpetty and/or a control freak that she's more interested in preseiving the Narrative from that, she's confindent that she can do this without getting everyone wiped out by Neshy so there are niether Heroes nor Villains to fight; and that is far from a given at this point.)

Yes! 10/10 leaping to conclusions and hitting biased targets you want to SMITE!
Your honorary paladins cloak is already in the mail. Wear it with pride!
I mean, you managed to get from a lingering suspicious that the Bard had her fingers in this mess, to a rock solid proclamation that the Bard was Evil, arrogant, petty and a control freak?
Even Miko would be impressed..

To be fair. If she fails at getting rid of him, she can always try again later.

Not a certain thing, if he manages to grow out of control.
She straight up confess she were the mind behind regular crusades against him.
All to bleed off his strenght so that he would not be able to take over yet another layer of hell.
Or something equally bad.

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean, you managed to get from a lingering suspicious that the Bard had her fingers in this mess, to a rock solid proclamation that the Bard was Evil, arrogant, petty and a control freak?

No, I got that from literally everything Bard has ever done.

The white hats in Creation are not now, nor have they ever been actually Good, they are just pretending they are. Hanno and Roland MAYBE, but in spite of, not because of Above and their other minions (which is itself comedicially Evil). (Case in point, Levant, which is in addition full of incredibly stupid people.)

Let's remember that the entire of Creation and all the death and endless rounds of wasteful, debilerately-prolonged, actively-technologically-stifled wars is solely due to a [urinating] contest between deites.

[Mith]

What I would love to see fall out from this is a literal manifestation of "Everyone is a Hero of their own story" with the Chosen/Damned or Hero/Villain labels being replaced with Exemplar.

Or would White Wolf sue for infringement?

[The Glyphstone]

White Wolf might have a copyright on 'Exalted', but I don't think you can own 'Exemplar' in that context.

[Mith]

White Wolf might have a copyright on 'Exalted', but I don't think you can own 'Exemplar' in that context.

It was mostly tongue in cheek. I just don't know how close the concepts are to cause fuss about overlap.

============

I sometimes wish that this series leaned on language of Fate and Patterns (human pattern recognition on more nebulous this being objectively true). It would feel better than to have all characters constantly calling out that they are in a story.

I get that there is an appeal to it, but I do think that taking the tropes that are explicitly called out as is and making them Patterns helps as you deal with more and more specific Names. We started in Book 1 with well understood Names, so leaning on stories explicitly was fine. At this point, a Name is an epitaph, arising among those with convictions and divine recognition.

I like this expansion of the concept, but I think it runs past it's old ideas a little bit.

[Lord Raziere]

What I would love to see fall out from this is a literal manifestation of "Everyone is a Hero of their own story" with the Chosen/Damned or Hero/Villain labels being replaced with Exemplar.

Or would White Wolf sue for infringement?

So replace bad system with an even worse one by denying the existence of truly bad people? morality may be more complex than black and white, but only a fool thinks its all grey. those labels being replaced by an amoral one will solve one issue only to replace it with another. because everything has to be uncertain these days and pretend as if the evil empire and people trying to protect against them are somehow equal in how bad they are. the reasons why heroes fight mean nothing anymore apparently, just that they do it against someones makes them "just as bad" as them. it'll just lead to people screwing things up by saying "you can't judge" that exemplar because of that stupid subjective morality thing thus letting them get away with their evil, screw that I always judge. assessing things is the foundation of a logical mind and helps you figure out what you need to do, who is and isn't someone to trust and what rightfully needs to be done. I do not see how morality is improved by letting uncertainty cloud one's mind, making me unable to make any decision of how to best act to so that it can be made to work- because it isn't improved by doing so.

because when uncertainty clouds the mind, fears of whether someone is truly doing the right thing spring up, they torment them, make them unable to act and no good is done because they are too busy wondering whether good can be done at all to actually do it, and fear is the mind killer.

[Forum Explorer]

It might be paranoia, but I think Cat is missing the main jab of the presumable Bard's attack. I think she's trying to shape Cat's newly forming Name. Currently the only out and out Villain she has is Masengo and he's barely a Villain at all. Archer is neutral, Vivi isn't Named and Hackram follows Cat. So if she ends up playing the hero here she might just end up becoming a Hero.

And that would end up killing the Terms just as thoroughly as the Mirror Knight bucking the rules would.

[Mith]

So replace bad system with an even worse one by denying the existence of truly bad people? morality may be more complex than black and white, but only a fool thinks its all grey. those labels being replaced by an amoral one will solve one issue only to replace it with another. because everything has to be uncertain these days and pretend as if the evil empire and people trying to protect against them are somehow equal in how bad they are. the reasons why heroes fight mean nothing anymore apparently, just that they do it against someones makes them "just as bad" as them. it'll just lead to people screwing things up by saying "you can't judge" that exemplar because of that stupid subjective morality thing thus letting them get away with their evil, screw that I always judge. assessing things is the foundation of a logical mind and helps you figure out what you need to do, who is and isn't someone to trust and what rightfully needs to be done. I do not see how morality is improved by letting uncertainty cloud one's mind, making me unable to make any decision of how to best act to so that it can be made to work- because it isn't improved by doing so.

because when uncertainty clouds the mind, fears of whether someone is truly doing the right thing spring up, they torment them, make them unable to act and no good is done because they are too busy wondering whether good can be done at all to actually do it, and fear is the mind killer.

I am not arguing for "subjective morality". I am stating that Above and Below do _not_ intrinsically code for Good and Evil, but more Law and Chaos. Is Praes a pit of snakes? Yes, and they have terrible champions that rise until they are laid low. However, going to the perspective of Black's youth, he recalls the Paladins of the White Hand raiding them as well as bandits.

Certainty is great, but it needs to be sound. Mirror Knight is highly certain in his opinions, and argues that massacre of Levantine people was a Good thing. William was certain about the monstrosity of Orcs, and his butchery of people is seen as Good.

Morality is objective, but this universe takes "protagonist centred morality" and shows the effect of always having that on your side. All I am looking for is recognising that this setting is an argument in philosophy, and stripping the morality labels and applying it across the board. Any assault by a Named is responded to in kind no matter their allegiance. Morality is still enforced, still objective, but it is not assumed to be on one side intrinsically, and completely absent from the other.

[lord_khaine]

Let's remember that the entire of Creation and all the death and endless rounds of wasteful, debilerately-prolonged, actively-technologically-stifled wars is solely due to a [urinating] contest between deites.

Yes. Everyone in creation owes their life to the philosophical contest between above and below.
So yes. Every war and death is because of that. So is every birth or marriage. Thats also solely due to the contest between the two sides.

But its not every war thats directly caused by above or below butting head.
We got a lot of examples on regular human arrogance not needing help there.

It might be paranoia, but I think Cat is missing the main jab of the presumable Bard's attack. I think she's trying to shape Cat's newly forming Name. Currently the only out and out Villain she has is Masengo and he's barely a Villain at all. Archer is neutral, Vivi isn't Named and Hackram follows Cat. So if she ends up playing the hero here she might just end up becoming a Hero.

And that would end up killing the Terms just as thoroughly as the Mirror Knight bucking the rules would.

Its a really interesting point that Bard might do this to shape Cat's name.
And something she has meddled in before. Though do remember that just getting Cat a hero name wont do much.
She can just abbandon it again.

It also overlook that we still need a reason for why the Bard would bother to kill the Terms.
I mean, everyone seems strangely convinced that the Truce and Terms would magically kill the Bard.
But so far i havent seen a singel argument for WHY it would affect her in the slightest.
Other than i guess, a massive dislike for her. I guess she also stir-fry puppies in her spare time

[halfeye]

So replace bad system with an even worse one by denying the existence of truly bad people? morality may be more complex than black and white, but only a fool thinks its all grey. those labels being replaced by an amoral one will solve one issue only to replace it with another. because everything has to be uncertain these days and pretend as if the evil empire and people trying to protect against them are somehow equal in how bad they are. the reasons why heroes fight mean nothing anymore apparently, just that they do it against someones makes them "just as bad" as them. it'll just lead to people screwing things up by saying "you can't judge" that exemplar because of that stupid subjective morality thing thus letting them get away with their evil, screw that I always judge. assessing things is the foundation of a logical mind and helps you figure out what you need to do, who is and isn't someone to trust and what rightfully needs to be done. I do not see how morality is improved by letting uncertainty cloud one's mind, making me unable to make any decision of how to best act to so that it can be made to work- because it isn't improved by doing so.

because when uncertainty clouds the mind, fears of whether someone is truly doing the right thing spring up, they torment them, make them unable to act and no good is done because they are too busy wondering whether good can be done at all to actually do it, and fear is the mind killer.

There seems to be a lot of confusion in that.

I do believe that there is no objectively true morality, we all live in cultures, and take our morals from the culture we live in, so I probably agree with most of your moral sentiments, because we are parts of connected cultures, if not necessarily identical ones. However, I can concieve of a culture whose morality said exterminate all foreigners (for example because they believed only foreigners killed at their hands went to heaven). That would be perverse, and I wouldn't agree with what they were doing, but I would claim that by their own perverse logic they were moral.

[Calemyr]

Yes. Everyone in creation owes their life to the philosophical contest between above and below.
So yes. Every war and death is because of that. So is every birth or marriage. Thats also solely due to the contest between the two sides.

But its not every war thats directly caused by above or below butting head.
We got a lot of examples on regular human arrogance not needing help there.

Heroes and Villains are the cause of the constant conflicts, Heroes and Villains are defined by allegiance to Above and Below, Above and Below are defined by the debate on whether mortal life should be free to decide their own fates or guided to the best fates for them. There is a lot of room for petty "humanity" to cause strife, but the core of constant wars does indeed boil down to a philosophical debate between gods.

Its a really interesting point that Bard might do this to shape Cat's name.
And something she has meddled in before. Though do remember that just getting Cat a hero name wont do much.
She can just abbandon it again.

You don't just "abandon" a Name. You don't get a Name just because you want power, get it because the core of your being resonates with a cultural icon. Likewise, you don't lose the Name because you don't like it anymore. The core of your being has to fall out of sync with the Name. Wanting to be something doesn't matter, you have to fundamentally stop being it. Viv stopped being the Thief because she lost the indignant fire that fed her rebellion, she found peace and accepted her place. She simply wasn't the Thief anymore, whether she wanted to be or not. Cat rejected everything her teachers represented, and forced a path that didn't mesh with the Squire and thus lost that power. This may sound like a trivial semantic point, but it's a critical factor - you don't just shrug these things off. You have to stop being fundamentally you to abandon a Name because you only got the Name because you already were that name, so fundamentally that you tapped into a narrative and became a "main character" in it. That is not something you can just stop being on a whim.

It also overlook that we still need a reason for why the Bard would bother to kill the Terms.
I mean, everyone seems strangely convinced that the Truce and Terms would magically kill the Bard.
But so far i havent seen a singel argument for WHY it would affect her in the slightest.
Other than i guess, a massive dislike for her. I guess she also stir-fry puppies in her spare time

I don't think the Truce would kill the Bard, but it does cripple her. Like the Black Knight grows stronger when he conquers, or the Dread Empress when she dominates, or the Squire strives to ascend to a higher Name, the Bard is at her strongest when she weaves the stories around her. Amadeus has, pretty much from the get-go, readily admitted that his lack of bloodlust makes him a very weak Black Knight, and that he knows what makes him dangerous is his story-fu and not his resonance with his Name. My theory is that the same applies to the Bard: if you want to strip her of her power, you first need to strip her of the stories that fuel her Name. A villain who genuinely wants a world that works, without her own benefit weighing in on the agenda? That is a problem, and must be removed. Heroes and villains working together? Mass hysteria! She needs the Good vs Evil thing to fuel the stories that makes her powerful, and if this ultimately works the bread and butter of her lifestyle simply dries up. She needs that power, though it's not clear why yet. I would assume it's because her purpose is to settle the dispute that broke the heavens once and for all, and that everything she's ever done has been to force the conflict in various ways until she can fundamentally prove which half of the gods were right in the first place. I'm not even sure if that's something she wants to do, or if it's something she is compelled to do, but something drives her.

Remember that the Truth of the Bard, which Nessie worked so hard to attain, is still in play, and the Bard didn't contest the fact that, if it got out, it would turn everyone on both sides against her. All the Bard said is that it wouldn't get out, because that shard of the King of the Dead wouldn't survive to report back. But the shard that was destroyed in that conflict was just a sacrificial decoy and another one did return to the King with the news. That is a Chekov's gun that will be fired, and I think Nessie needs to pull the heroes and villains close to him before he fires it or else the Bard will catch on, so he's owning the Hidden Horror identity for all it's worth to make that moment as powerful as he can make it without the Bard catching on too soon. That's why he's playing so ruthlessly out of character when all he's ever wanted before was to maintain his borders and top up his rep so that he kept his Name.

[Onos]

Regarding the truth of the Intercessor:
We have never seen her work with less than extreme narratives (Swordsman, Justice-via-Hanno, The Everdark), but have seen her bounce from one side to another. Given the existence of multiple "sources" i.e. the Good, the Bad and the Neither, it seems that the Intercessor only works for Good and Evil.
In effect, two sets of Gods are trying to perpetuate the conflict driving Creation, with her being as close to direct influence as can be had. If her "secret" is that those two sides don't actually want the conflict to end, I could see that being terrible for her.
No doubt there would still be some who swore to Above or Below anyway for various reasons, but such a truth coming to light could well radically alter the narrative of Creation.

Onto some slightly crazier speculation; if the "Other" Gods also have two sides (let's say Neither and Both), then Cat may be effectively becoming the Intercessor for these sides whilst the Bard remains Intercessor for Above and Below.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I may jump in without reading the whole thread (to avoid spoilers), I decided to give this story a try based on the recommendation in the OP, and I was enjoying it quite a bit, but as the books have passed, less and less, and I finally hit a brick wall when Cat went to the King of the Dead dude, went on a murder rampage involving some kind of amnesia, and the fight with a video game save scummer went all trippy... just to be unceremoniously told that "the talks went nowhere, so we are leaving" and be informed that Cat had been led by the nose the whole time, making me feel I could have just skipped something like ten chapters to that paragraph and saved myself the trouble.

Now, I am not throwing rocks at the story here - if anything I suspect it is more that the 'the dangers are ever growing in scale' style is not really for me - but still, I want to ask, is this a low point in the series, and if I soldier on, it goes back more towards what was like in the first couple of books, or is the danger escalation continue in this fashion for the remainder?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

If I may jump in without reading the whole thread (to avoid spoilers), I decided to give this story a try based on the recommendation in the OP, and I was enjoying it quite a bit, but as the books have passed, less and less, and I finally hit a brick wall when Cat went to the King of the Dead dude, went on a murder rampage involving some kind of amnesia, and the fight with a video game save scummer went all trippy... just to be unceremoniously told that "the talks went nowhere, so we are leaving" and be informed that Cat had been led by the nose the whole time, making me feel I could have just skipped something like ten chapters to that paragraph and saved myself the trouble.

Now, I am not throwing rocks at the story here - if anything I suspect it is more that the 'the dangers are ever growing in scale' style is not really for me - but still, I want to ask, is this a low point in the series, and if I soldier on, it goes back more towards what was like in the first couple of books, or is the danger escalation continue in this fashion for the remainder?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

So the downhill spiral and escalation does happen throughout the next arc. I enjoy a lot of the other threads throughout the book you will be starting, but I rank it only above the arc with Keter.

And the general escalation also grows as the nature of the series.

However, I personally like the outcome of the next book you will be starting and the change in how Cat takes on the world. I would personally recommend trying the next two books (if you can) to get through the full transition process.

[Calemyr]

If I may jump in without reading the whole thread (to avoid spoilers), I decided to give this story a try based on the recommendation in the OP, and I was enjoying it quite a bit, but as the books have passed, less and less, and I finally hit a brick wall when Cat went to the King of the Dead dude, went on a murder rampage involving some kind of amnesia, and the fight with a video game save scummer went all trippy... just to be unceremoniously told that "the talks went nowhere, so we are leaving" and be informed that Cat had been led by the nose the whole time, making me feel I could have just skipped something like ten chapters to that paragraph and saved myself the trouble.

Now, I am not throwing rocks at the story here - if anything I suspect it is more that the 'the dangers are ever growing in scale' style is not really for me - but still, I want to ask, is this a low point in the series, and if I soldier on, it goes back more towards what was like in the first couple of books, or is the danger escalation continue in this fashion for the remainder?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I have to agree Keter itself was a pretty low point, between the absurdly convoluted events and the apparent shaggy-dog outcome. From where I'm standing, it was worth it in the long run. The Dead King plays an interesting counterpoint to the many antagonists this series fields, low key and direct yet passive and horrifyingly competent. The Keter arc seeds a lot of things that take a long time to sprout, but looking back it's a pretty major turning point for the story.

The next arc (the drow) is another odd one, and it hit me with some serious fatigue due to the limited cast, but the payoff is well worth it. Cat returns from it glorious form and it's been quite a ride since.

It must be said that this is a very interesting series in that alliances are constantly shifting. People you want to see die a fiery death one arc become vital allies the next, while allies that used to be trusted become mortal enemies.

[uncool]

It must be said that this is a very interesting series in that alliances are constantly shifting. People you want to see die a fiery death one arc become vital allies the next, while allies that used to be trusted become mortal enemies.

This is one of the things that strongly keeps me with the story - the writer's general ability to plausibly get enemies with realistically differing philosophies to work together, and also to use the differing philosophies of allies to make them enemies. It's a lot like Wildbow, though it comes with the same drawback - the constant need for a new outside threat as almost the only resolution to the philosophical differences. Both Wildbow and ErraticErrata make it work, in part by making that rule explicitly part of the universe, but the same kind of resolution sometimes gets tiring.

[Calemyr]

The only constants are that Hakram is always awesome, the Bard is always a pain in the ass, and Kairos Theodosian is eternally both fun to watch and fundamentally untrustworthy...

[Aotrs Commander]

Changing the subject entirely, but while translating the Pathfinder antipaladin spells across to my 3.aotrs houserules edition, I discovered the Final Sacrifice spell, which make summons explode.

Summon Monster IS on the antipaladin spell list, and while there aren't any specific goat stats in PF (well, not in Nethys anyway), a bit of blagging (to the DM or by me the DM) would suggest some reflavouring of herd animal (or perhaps a subsitution)...

That exploding goats is within the realm of possibility.

Muahahahahahahahaha!

The dream is real!



Am so using this the first chance I get with a suitably high-level NPC...

[Excession]

Spoiler: Chapter 16: Divine

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So it's a murder mystery story. There is a murder, a killer, a cast of strange characters, a deeper conspiracy, and a brilliant detective. The Moon Knight appears to be the detective, and Cat can't easily take that Role from him. So she runs, and makes herself the "obvious first suspect" who is exonerated at the end when the real conspiracy is revealed. Assuming she survives that is. Her end game is to have the Moon Knight uncover everything, proving Cat innocent and making him look bad for assuming Cat was in the wrong.

[Rynjin]

I think that's not quite right. Mirror Knight is the Inspector Javert in this scenario who's going to follow his illogical, baseless hate down all the rabbit holes the true mastermind is trying to lead him down. Roland is the most likely to be the true investigator/detective here.

In this scenario the mastermind always has some kind of "agent of chaos" that can be diverted down many paths. He could be humbled by his stupidity, become the "comic relief", or be a huge wrench in the works to everyone else' plans.

[Forum Explorer]

If I may jump in without reading the whole thread (to avoid spoilers), I decided to give this story a try based on the recommendation in the OP, and I was enjoying it quite a bit, but as the books have passed, less and less, and I finally hit a brick wall when Cat went to the King of the Dead dude, went on a murder rampage involving some kind of amnesia, and the fight with a video game save scummer went all trippy... just to be unceremoniously told that "the talks went nowhere, so we are leaving" and be informed that Cat had been led by the nose the whole time, making me feel I could have just skipped something like ten chapters to that paragraph and saved myself the trouble.

Now, I am not throwing rocks at the story here - if anything I suspect it is more that the 'the dangers are ever growing in scale' style is not really for me - but still, I want to ask, is this a low point in the series, and if I soldier on, it goes back more towards what was like in the first couple of books, or is the danger escalation continue in this fashion for the remainder?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

You are going to have to go through the Drow arc which gets pretty tedious. But it has an absolutely amazing conclusion that is well worth the price of admission.

The next book starts off strong and is an absolute glorious ride that stays strong that also feels a lot more true to the old style of Cat.

[Rydiro]

You are going to have to go through the Drow arc which gets pretty tedious. But it has an absolutely amazing conclusion that is well worth the price of admission.

The next book starts off strong and is an absolute glorious ride that stays strong that also feels a lot more true to the old style of Cat.

Agreed, drow arc is strange. Things get better afterwards. Still, the concept of practical methods is out of the window, the story is mainly about stories now, ironically.

[Lord Raziere]

Agreed, drow arc is strange. Things get better afterwards. Still, the concept of practical methods is out of the window, the story is mainly about stories now, ironically.

Spoiler

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It also questionable whether its really about evil, given Cat breaking off from the Empire and seeking alliance with heroes. while facing a capital E evil. and not really doing much evil herself, arguably.

pretty sure the narratives gonna take a look at her and go "okay so what evil have you done lately, though?" sooner or later and say "I don't know, fighting against a big villain? with heroes? trying to reduce casualties with a treaty? your on thin ice enough as it is and now this?" I wouldn't be surprised if there are consequences for where she is going now.

[druid91]

Spoiler

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It also questionable whether its really about evil, given Cat breaking off from the Empire and seeking alliance with heroes. while facing a capital E evil. and not really doing much evil herself, arguably.

pretty sure the narratives gonna take a look at her and go "okay so what evil have you done lately, though?" sooner or later and say "I don't know, fighting against a big villain? with heroes? trying to reduce casualties with a treaty? your on thin ice enough as it is and now this?" I wouldn't be surprised if there are consequences for where she is going now.

Spoiler

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I would be greatly surprised at that. Because as Black says, Evil and villainy isn't about being the Hellgods Marching Boy. It's about seizing power and then doing what you wish with it. Catherine is doing that in spades.

Like Amadeus says, the taking of power is what makes you a villain. It's a confirmation, not a coronation.

[Tvtyrant]

If I may jump in without reading the whole thread (to avoid spoilers), I decided to give this story a try based on the recommendation in the OP, and I was enjoying it quite a bit, but as the books have passed, less and less, and I finally hit a brick wall when Cat went to the King of the Dead dude, went on a murder rampage involving some kind of amnesia, and the fight with a video game save scummer went all trippy... just to be unceremoniously told that "the talks went nowhere, so we are leaving" and be informed that Cat had been led by the nose the whole time, making me feel I could have just skipped something like ten chapters to that paragraph and saved myself the trouble.

Now, I am not throwing rocks at the story here - if anything I suspect it is more that the 'the dangers are ever growing in scale' style is not really for me - but still, I want to ask, is this a low point in the series, and if I soldier on, it goes back more towards what was like in the first couple of books, or is the danger escalation continue in this fashion for the remainder?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

For me the story dived starting with the Fae arc and bottoms out in negotiating with the King of the Dead. The next arc is rather shonen-esque but takes a hard right turn at the end which is extremely satisfying. That arc has some of the best character moments in the series, and the story gets progressively more entertaining from there.

I would stick with it, or even jump forward a bit and then go back once you feel assured the series has returned to a more viable format.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So the downhill spiral and escalation does happen throughout the next arc. I enjoy a lot of the other threads throughout the book you will be starting, but I rank it only above the arc with Keter. [...] However, I personally like the outcome of the next book

I have to agree Keter itself was a pretty low point [...] The next arc (the drow) is another odd one, and it hit me with some serious fatigue due to the limited cast, but the payoff is well worth it

For me the story dived starting with the Fae arc and bottoms out in negotiating with the King of the Dead. The next arc is rather shonen-esque but takes a hard right turn at the end which is extremely satisfying.

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the general agreement is that I should try and soldier on until the resolution of this drow business, and if I am satisfied by it, then I'm probably good to go. It's a bit of a task, to push through a whole 'nother arc, but it's a bit easier to do with what amounts to solid, independent assurance that this is indeed a low point, which is what I was hoping it'd be.

Grey "I'm likely not coming back unless I'm all caught up, so feel free to be spoiler-full again, and thanks for the consideration" Wolf

[Mith]

On general topic with this series review, I wonder if the author still plans to review and publish at the end of this.

I for one would buy the series simply because I enjoy the free books as is. Going back over with the full series written to clean up the phrasing, tighten plot threads, and I could see this being a very solid series as far as sales go.

Of course, publishers may be sceptical of selling a freely published work, but I view it as "well tested".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course, publishers may be sceptical of selling a freely published work, but I view it as "well tested".

The Martian was free-published by Andy Weir in the Casey and Andy forums (heck, IIRC, he used the forums as a bouncing board for ideas and corrections), and that doesn't seem to have hurt his chances at publishing. Or getting made into a film.

The modern attitude towards sexuality, on the other hand, will be an issue outside of niche publishing companies. And no, I don't think that's a good thing, but that's the way it is right now.

Grey "yeah, yeah, I couldn't help but check there wasn't a late answer" Wolf