A Practical Guide to Evil

[tyckspoon]

I guess I see the act of magic use as skill, willpower and raw power, and the last as the only thing that can be really compensated without as many flaws (see Rogue Sorcerer using artifacts with skill and cleverness over holding a massive amount of raw power).

I suspect there's more power in the Rogue Sorcerer than he lets on, but he tries very hard not to have go that route - it's not sustainable, because it both requires requires going deep into his Use aspect to do it and it's spending a non-renewable resource (unlike most Named and mages, who just need to rest for some time to let their big shots recharge.) Most of the artifacts are reusable or at least theoretically replaceable; a magical nuke fired off by Using the magic he Confiscated from some notable foe is not, and the effort of Using Use for that big an effect is likely to wear out the Rogue Sorcerer as well and make it more difficult to continue using the rest of his collection. Possibly something we'll see if he gets in an Obvious Final Boss Battle, not something to do when you don't know how many more enemies you're going to have to deal with.

[Forum Explorer]

I will concede that I am probably just straight wrong about things related to themes, since i seem to be dropping details.

I guess I see the act of magic use as skill, willpower and raw power, and the last as the only thing that can be really compensated without as many flaws (see Rogue Sorcerer using artifacts with skill and cleverness over holding a massive amount of raw power).

Nah, you can compensate for any of those. For example, the Legion mages lack skill but they compensate for it by just mass using a really basic spell. For that matter, Cat using Winter was very much someone using their Will and Power to compensate for their lack of skill.

[lord_khaine]

Agreed it is a massive loss of power for him. Cat's inferiority with her powers goes way back to at least the Camps, if it didn't leave her exposed it would make more sense to just permanently lend them out.

I would have agreed before the start of the recent storyarc. But she has just shown that while she lack advanced/technical skills then she is staggering proficient with the basic ones.
She did just kill a ranked Fae with his own sword.

I will concede that I am probably just straight wrong about things related to themes, since i seem to be dropping details.

The problem is its very hard to see what details are important, since there are so many

Nah, you can compensate for any of those. For example, the Legion mages lack skill but they compensate for it by just mass using a really basic spell. For that matter, Cat using Winter was very much someone using their Will and Power to compensate for their lack of skill.

For that matter, will and power seems pretty much the same when it comes to magic.

[tyckspoon]

For that matter, will and power seems pretty much the same when it comes to magic.

Sure, if you're using an INFERIOR THEORY OF MAGIC (Hierophant burn!) The Trismegistan school is far more about making the most efficient possible use of what you have, with increasingly exacting technical skills resulting in more powerful magical outputs for a given input. Plus I suspect some natural talent or trait required to work with High Arcana at all, although I don't recall now if that was said in text or if it's just meant to be an indication of a sufficiently well-trained mage being able to interact with the next level of spells. Only mages with trainings in degenerate schools of thought confuse 'casting the spell harder' for 'casting the spell better'

[lord_khaine]

... ill just wait until whatever it is your on has worn off..

[Mith]

To clarify: I am not saying will and skill cannot be compensated for by power, but that if you are inefficient or not strong willed, you will lose against a much higher skilled/stronger willed mage provided they are not so far above you in power.

As far as Will != Power, I don't think Masego has lost any Willpower, just the reservoir for magic. He can use any other reservoir he can get his hands on to do work so long as he doesn't run out of power he is fine.

[druid91]

Sure, if you're using an INFERIOR THEORY OF MAGIC (Hierophant burn!) The Trismegistan school is far more about making the most efficient possible use of what you have, with increasingly exacting technical skills resulting in more powerful magical outputs for a given input. Plus I suspect some natural talent or trait required to work with High Arcana at all, although I don't recall now if that was said in text or if it's just meant to be an indication of a sufficiently well-trained mage being able to interact with the next level of spells. Only mages with trainings in degenerate schools of thought confuse 'casting the spell harder' for 'casting the spell better'

It was explicitly said that the ability to comprehend High Arcana was something you were born with. Hence why the runes Masego used squiggled out of catherine's mind.

[Forum Explorer]

To clarify: I am not saying will and skill cannot be compensated for by power, but that if you are inefficient or not strong willed, you will lose against a much higher skilled/stronger willed mage provided they are not so far above you in power.

As far as Will != Power, I don't think Masego has lost any Willpower, just the reservoir for magic. He can use any other reservoir he can get his hands on to do work so long as he doesn't run out of power he is fine.

Now that's really tough to say. The only mage we've seen who is really powerful but not super skilled was Cat. And the person who brought her down was more powerful than her.

[Mith]

Now that's really tough to say. The only mage we've seen who is really powerful but not super skilled was Cat. And the person who brought her down was more powerful than her.

I guess as I see it, loads of power and will but little skill results in the arcane equivalent of focusing a fire hose (or lake) to a specific spot. A more skilled opponent can figure a way to break or diver the channeling of power, or turn all this power back against you. Think of Cat's fight against the Blade of Mercy in the library: she calmly stepped aside and baited his attacks to out maneuver him without a great display of power.

We cannot fully "visualise" arcane applications as it's all fiction, but that's more where I am coming from.

I guess if raw power is your strength to move a lever, will power is the strength of the lever and fulcrum and skill is knowing where to stand.

[lord_khaine]

I honestly continue to find the idea of whatever Will is meant to be hard to understand. Its so diffuse.
I prefer to see the relevant traits as power (how much raw power is behind your spells), Skill/finesse (how advanced spells you can use, and how high your skill with lower spells are),
and endurance, how long you can keep using magic.

Where it can easily be that power and endurance is closely connected.

It was explicitly said that the ability to comprehend High Arcana was something you were born with. Hence why the runes Masego used squiggled out of catherine's mind.

That might as well have been because it was to complex.

[druid91]

I honestly continue to find the idea of whatever Will is meant to be hard to understand. Its so diffuse.
I prefer to see the relevant traits as power (how much raw power is behind your spells), Skill/finesse (how advanced spells you can use, and how high your skill with lower spells are),
and endurance, how long you can keep using magic.

Where it can easily be that power and endurance is closely connected.



That might as well have been because it was to complex.

I mean. You might not understand something that's complex. Typically complex things don't actively squiggle out of your thoughts.

[lord_khaine]

I mean. You might not understand something that's complex. Typically complex things don't actively squiggle out of your thoughts.

Typical complex things dont litterally warp reality.

[runeghost]

I feel the more common theory, and the one I ascribe to, is that Cat's new name will replace the Wandering Bard. She will either be rendered irrelevant, or killed outright by Cat taking up her new Name.

I'm starting to suspect she's going to end up with a Name like Warden, Arbiter, or the Dark Judge. And when she eventually replaces (i.e. eliminates) Bard, she won't shape stories anymore. Instead, she'll just make sure that the Named play by the rules, and stay within the bounds. Which will put an end to the Age of Wonders, because when a Named Hero tries to launch a Crusade, or when a Named Villain tries to build a flying death fortress, Cat will be there making sure that they're taken down before they even get started... just like her father did with Heroes for so long.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

So Masego is getting a second chance at becoming immortal, and this time hopefully doesn't get possessed by KotD.

[Mith]

Currently laughing at my own protagonist blindness, as there can be strong comparisons drawn between Cat and Christophe's meeting and the meetings between Cordelia and Cat, and I didn't notice them until commenters pointed them out.

[McNum]

He's not wrong either. He's getting pulled into the inner circle because he's become too important to ignore. When a Hero picks up the sword that can end the war in a time of need, and uses it to kill several Demons while doing so, well... Severance is now his sword. That's just not the kind of Story you want to get in the way of.

And thus, the importance of the Severance, the blade that will cut anything, transfers to him.

[Mith]

He's not wrong either. He's getting pulled into the inner circle because he's become too important to ignore. When a Hero picks up the sword that can end the war in a time of need, and uses it to kill several Demons while doing so, well... Severance is now his sword. That's just not the kind of Story you want to get in the way of.

And thus, the importance of the Severance, the blade that will cut anything, transfers to him.

I agree that he is not wrong. However at least from the perspective of interacting with the villains, I am not sure how much of the current issue with Christophe is something Cat could manage on top of everything else. I am not saying she couldn't have handled this conversation here better, but Id o think there is a difference between two nations at war and two factions trying to hash out and stick to protocols to make sure things don't blow up.

Thinking back to the discussion between Hanno and Cat earlier in the story where Hanno admitted to being too laid back certain elements of leadership. I can get and appreciate his reasoning for that (as he is also trying to find his footing as a foot soldier bereft of a chain of command). However, by not having the same authority presence amongst the Heroes that Cat has amongst the Villains, it ends up with his leadership being more easily questioned.

However, I think that both Cat and Hanno do reflect the ideal future of Below and Above that will make the Truce and Terms evolve into the Accords. To me, Above and Below read strongly as Law and Chaos, as Above is focused on guiding people to correct outcomes, where Below is "do as you will". To force a balance you need to tether Chaos and free up Law.

This does result in growing pains to get there though.

[HolyDraconus]

Just caught up on this.. Jeez, so much stuff... fun stuff. Do love Cat but I miss me some papa Dark.

[Meph]

I can't help but seek a future for the Deadhand. What are Hakram's possibilities to come back in the game?
Assuming his limbs are not an option because demons. (also, more dead flesh would be a bad idea since the current big bad is a top rank necromancer)
My bets are magical prosthesis like a magical armor to inhabit (they do happen to be at the Arsenal) or a Name upgrade (I think Adjutant was said to be a transitional Name somewhere in the book). Either into a regenerating Name (the Troll comes to mind, greenskin much) or into a pure mental one and he will get carried around like Bran Stark or Charles Xavier.

[Rynjin]

I can't help but seek a future for the Deadhand. What are Hakram's possibilities to come back in the game?
Assuming his limbs are not an option because demons. (also, more dead flesh would be a bad idea since the current big bad is a top rank necromancer)
My bets are magical prosthesis like a magical armor to inhabit (they do happen to be at the Arsenal) or a Name upgrade (I think Adjutant was said to be a transitional Name somewhere in the book). Either into a regenerating Name (the Troll comes to mind, greenskin much) or into a pure mental one and he will get carried around like Bran Stark or Charles Xavier.

I don't think anyone knows what Adjutant is, since it's an ENTIRELY new name; Hakram is the only person in history to have it.

It stands to reason that if it is transitional (I don't think this is stated anywhere though, and I doubt it is), the new name would likewise be tailor made for Hakram and his current circumstances.

I have 50/50 on the "Hakram Half-dead" prediction from one of the comments (not a huge stretch from "ghost hand" to "ghost body") or him getting the ability to astral project and losing Rampage for an Aspect more befitting of his relegation to non-combat status.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah i cant recall anywhere either we were told it was a transition name.
I think its quite likely it will stay.

The same with Rampage. Aspects are by default locked in place. There isnt any respect option here.
So the ½ dead is a pretty likely guess. So is some sort of animated armor. Or him retiring from active combat.

[Rydiro]

He's not wrong either. He's getting pulled into the inner circle because he's become too important to ignore.

Well yes. And the fact that he is upset about that shows how immature he is. He just became one of the top three assets in this war. And instead of taking responsibility and working productively with cat (to be fair, thats not easy), he is insulted. He just has no sense for politics or hierarchy. You couldnt place him in charge of anything at an ordinary job. He is that unprofessional.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Mirror Knight has a good point here. Cat just offered protection to a villain who betrayed the alliance, but she won't negotiate a pardon for a hero who broke the terms but didn't actually betray them. Claiming that Red Axe was manipulated or ensorcelled is hardly that big a leap and it lets them keep an asset they would lose otherwise.

Cat's dislike of heroes is pretty obvious here.

[druid91]

I think Mirror Knight has a good point here. Cat just offered protection to a villain who betrayed the alliance, but she won't negotiate a pardon for a hero who broke the terms but didn't actually betray them. Claiming that Red Axe was manipulated or ensorcelled is hardly that big a leap and it lets them keep an asset they would lose otherwise.

Cat's dislike of heroes is pretty obvious here.

Not really.

Red Axe was actively working with the Wandering Bard as well. And to a much greater degree. It could even be implied with knowledge of this that her killing was deliberately staged as an attack on the terms by her.

The question isn't 'keeping an asset they would lose otherwise' because she's not an asset. She's a liability.

[Mith]

Not really.

Red Axe was actively working with the Wandering Bard as well. And to a much greater degree. It could even be implied with knowledge of this that her killing was deliberately staged as an attack on the terms by her.

The question isn't 'keeping an asset they would lose otherwise' because she's not an asset. She's a liability.

A quick scan, and I can see where you can get actively working for the Bard. I think there is a difference between conspiring for personal gain vs. a person popping out and telling a Named that the objectify their vengeance (a common trope for Names of both sides) will be within their grasp. The Red Axe is a challenge to the Truce and Terms, but a necessary one for them to overcome and survive.

[tyckspoon]

A quick scan, and I can see where you can get actively working for the Bard. I think there is a difference between conspiring for personal gain vs. a person popping out and telling a Named that the objectify their vengeance (a common trope for Names of both sides) will be within their grasp. The Red Axe is a challenge to the Truce and Terms, but a necessary one for them to overcome and survive.

If it was just 'I'll get you into the Arsenal and you'll have a chance to take out your personal nemesis', I could see an argument that the Red Axe was just manipulated and possibly worth lenience - sanctioned under the Terms, but you could find a way to not need to kill her. But that wasn't all. She directly attacked another Hero with intent to kill. Regardless of how she got to the Arsenal or what her agreement/degree of plotting with the Bard was, that's not forgivable.

[Tvtyrant]

If it was just 'I'll get you into the Arsenal and you'll have a chance to take out your personal nemesis', I could see an argument that the Red Axe was just manipulated and possibly worth lenience - sanctioned under the Terms, but you could find a way to not need to kill her. But that wasn't all. She directly attacked another Hero with intent to kill. Regardless of how she got to the Arsenal or what her agreement/degree of plotting with the Bard was, that's not forgivable.

I must have missed that part somehow. I thought she killed the villain, Kingfisher dealt with an illusion and then got stabbed by whoever was using the illusions. If she stabbed the Kingfisher yeah she has to get got.

[tyckspoon]

I must have missed that part somehow. I thought she killed the villain, Kingfisher dealt with an illusion and then got stabbed by whoever was using the illusions. If she stabbed the Kingfisher yeah she has to get got.

"The illusion broke and Frederic Goethal smiled at the wave of exclamations from the soldiers, who saw the truth of his offered surrender laid bare by the sword at his feet. He turned to offer the Repentant Magister a bow but found that her eyes were widening.

He turned to find the Red Axe with his sword in hand, just as the blade hacked into the side of his neck."

Interlude - Knock Them Down.

Nephele - the Repentant Magister - broke the illusion that was making the Arsenal's soldiers believe that the Kingfisher Prince was about to attack them, and then Red Axe tried to cut his head off with his own sword.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I must have missed that part somehow. I thought she killed the villain, Kingfisher dealt with an illusion and then got stabbed by whoever was using the illusions. If she stabbed the Kingfisher yeah she has to get got.

Quite the contrary. Kingfisher tried to surrender, noticed that the soldiers where not responsding to his actions but to an illusion, another hero showed up and dispelled the illusion just in time for Kingfisher to see Red Axe use his sword to try to chop off his head:

The illusion broke and Frederic Goethal smiled at the wave of exclamations from the soldiers, who saw the truth of his offered surrender laid bare by the sword at his feet. He turned to offer the Repentant Magister a bow but found that her eyes were widening.

He turned to find the Red Axe with his sword in hand, just as the blade hacked into the side of his neck.

He was only saved by the fact that his sword refused to harm his true master.

“Part of it was the Magister’s stabilizing intervention, but there appears to have been another manner of interference. He was struck with his own sword, which seems to have sorcery laid into the steel that made it reluctant – if not incapable – to kill its own wielder. The blow was deep but avoided the jugular.”

Grey Wolf

[lord_khaine]

I must have missed that part somehow. I thought she killed the villain, Kingfisher dealt with an illusion and then got stabbed by whoever was using the illusions. If she stabbed the Kingfisher yeah she has to get got.

No she tried to take Kingfishers head off.
The only reason he is alive was that his sword had an enchantment that it harder for it to turn its owner.
She is likely a lot more guilty than the Hunted Magician. Who so far just put a library to sleep.