Mental Might: A guide to the Awakened Blade

[Sunforger42]

In virtually all cases I can think of, yes. This is partially because the warder has access to a greater number of disciplines and can enter the AB with a greater number of stances and maneuvers known and readied, and partially because the warder's recovery method is typically far superior to that of the MotSF. Remember also that it's often possible to upgrade your MotSF maneuvers to quite decent levels via swaps while leveling in the AB, and even should it turn out you rarely initiate those maneuvers, they can still be put to great use as fuel for the AB's Clairsentient Counter.

When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?

[exelsisxax]

When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?

Prestige classes don't provide swaps. Maneuver swaps are provided by base classes only, and based on IL only. They can't be transferred across progressions. Your monk swaps are monk swamps, and your warder swaps are warder swaps.

Archetype swaps are not useful when you multiclass or PrC significantly, because they do not unlock maneuvers based on IL, but class level. If you have 3 or fewer levels of monk, you can't ever bootstrap your monk maneuvers above 1st level, so that makes monk swaps uselsss in these cases.

Warder progression doesn't care about class level, only IL. Since AB provides full IL, the swaps are very useful, even if your warder level is very low.


As Upho mentioned, the progression is an entirely different question. Warder, as a full initiator, has a lot more readied maneuvers that you can stuff with AB maneuvers, while a monk has very few. If you intend to take a lot of AB levels, warder is almost certainly better, but if you intend only a dip away from monk it could be a better option to stick them to monk progression.

[Sunforger42]

Prestige classes don't provide swaps. Maneuver swaps are provided by base classes only, and based on IL only. They can't be transferred across progressions. Your monk swaps are monk swamps, and your warder swaps are warder swaps.

Archetype swaps are not useful when you multiclass or PrC significantly, because they do not unlock maneuvers based on IL, but class level. If you have 3 or fewer levels of monk, you can't ever bootstrap your monk maneuvers above 1st level, so that makes monk swaps uselsss in these cases.

Warder progression doesn't care about class level, only IL. Since AB provides full IL, the swaps are very useful, even if your warder level is very low.


As Upho mentioned, the progression is an entirely different question. Warder, as a full initiator, has a lot more readied maneuvers that you can stuff with AB maneuvers, while a monk has very few. If you intend to take a lot of AB levels, warder is almost certainly better, but if you intend only a dip away from monk it could be a better option to stick them to monk progression.

Now I feel like I've got three different answers as to how prestige progression and swaps work.

[upho]

When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?

I'm saying that whenever your MotSF IL or any other of your IL's increase to an even number of at least 4 as a result of you gaining an additional AB level, you can swap one of that class' maneuvers to any maneuver the IL allows for according to the PoW general rules for full initiators. In other words, the max level of the MotSF maneuvers available to you when making those swaps aren't bound by the usual archetype class level dependent cap.

And just as Exels wrote, this is completely independent on whether you choose to add additional maneuvers known/readied granted by the AB's progression to the warder's pool of manuevers known/readied or to that of of the MotSF.

Now I feel like I've got three different answers as to how prestige progression and swaps work.

Ah yes. Unfortunately, there's some disagreement/confusion about what the RAW says and whether the RAW is 100% clear about which max level cap is to be used for archetype maneuvers gained through swaps granted by taking levels in PrC's like the AB. So Exels' reply may very well be technically correct, but it's based on what I'd call one of at least three possible mutually exclusive interpretations of the RAW, and other people are certain one of those other interpretations is the only one possible.

When I wrote "it's often possible to upgrade your MotSF maneuvers to quite decent levels via swaps while leveling in the AB" I was sort of trying to sidestep the issue and instead simply went by the interpretation I believe is most easily and commonly used in practice, as well as arguably most in line with the designers' stated intent of removing the usual class level cap from archetype maneuvers gained by taking PrC levels:

I am now unclear as to whether or not this rule shift applies to maneuvers swapped out due to IL advancement.

If the IL advancement was caused by gaining a level of an initiator prestige class, it's not bound by the normal archetype class level cap, but by IL like full initiators. If the IL advancement was gained by taking levels in any other class, it's still bound by that archetype class level cap (and therefore the swap doesn't grant access to higher level maneuvers unless the level gained was in the actual archetype whose powers are swapped).

Even if he was taking levels in Wizard his IL levels would advance at 1/2 rate and at HB 7/Wiz 2 they get a 3rd level swap and at HB 7/Wiz 6 they get another swap with level 4 maneuvers available.

No. A HB 7/Wiz 6 would gain a swap due to increased IL, but is still bound to max level 3 maneuvers.

Again, the max maneuver level of archetype initiators are regulated by CLASS levels, not IL (again, with the exception of taking levels in initiator PrC's).

Ah. I get it, although that's a slightly arcane way to look at the charts. Huh. That is a strong incentive for the Initiator Archetypes to look at Prestige Classes.

Yes, that was intentional.

Basically, I recommend you simply use the normal default IL-limited level also for MotSF maneuver swaps granted when taking levels in the AB. Just as the rules for MotSF maneuvers granted by the AB's progression.

One could make an argument that this is less in line with the RAW than what Exels wrote, but I think it's also quite apparent this particular issue was overlooked when the rules were written. So while the RAW may allow for technically perfectly valid extrapolations, I think the lack of any explicit instructions in the rules addressing this issue also means such extrapolations won't necessarily tell you anything about whether their effects were intended.

(You can read a discussion Exels, Andor13 and me had about this starting with post #1194 here and continues to post 1220. Just be warned that it's not exactly easy reading...)

Take what you will from this.

[Sunforger42]

I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?

[exelsisxax]

I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?

No. It doesn't saying anything about doing that.

[Sunforger42]

No. It doesn't saying anything about doing that.

Then tell me how those two blade skills interact, please.

[exelsisxax]

Then tell me how those two blade skills interact, please.

If you mean "does the bonus counteract the penalty for net +0", then still no. Splitting is -2, you get +1 on the improved. It doesn't give you +1 total bonus each time you do it, it gives +1 on the item you augment.

[Sunforger42]

If you mean "does the bonus counteract the penalty for net +0", then still no. Splitting is -2, you get +1 on the improved. It doesn't give you +1 total bonus each time you do it, it gives +1 on the item you augment.

I thought splitting once so you have two psicrystals only have you a -1 penalty. Obviously splitting it more to cover more weapons or armor or shields or whatever would make it steeper, I get that.

[exelsisxax]

I thought splitting once so you have two psicrystals only have you a -1 penalty. Obviously splitting it more to cover more weapons or armor or shields or whatever would make it steeper, I get that.

When the crystal is split, its overall enhancement bonus is reduced by 1 for each item enhanced.

Doesn't say -1 for each beyond the first or anything like that, or include clauses like the base soulknife enhancing two blades. It's bad for focus, but it still makes things masterwork so you can kill people using TWF masterwork bar stools with weapon focus/spec.

You are enhancing 2 items to TWF, so you're getting -2 to the total. This isn't great, because it basically eliminates the actual enhancement bonus until level 9 or so. This is a bad idea for that build, because a base soulknife gets better mileage out of the baseline dual soulblade manifesting without using blade skills and can pick up a weapon emulation blade skill if actual guantlets are necessary.

[upho]

I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?

Exels has already answered your question, but I'd like to remind you again that it's better to first decide on what you want to do, then to start looking at the options which may help you do that. Again:

It all depends on what you want to achieve.

So even if Improved priscrystal had bypassed the usual TWF penalty, it wouldn't necessarily have made your gifted war soul alternative build any better. It may very well turn to be a largely or even completely irrelevant issue.

[Sunforger42]

Exels has already answered your question, but I'd like to remind you again that it's better to first decide on what you want to do, then to start looking at the options which may help you do that. Again:

It all depends on what you want to achieve.

So even if Improved priscrystal had bypassed the usual TWF penalty, it wouldn't necessarily have made your gifted war soul alternative build any better. It may very well turn to be a largely or even completely irrelevant issue.

So, I have two character builds in mind that I'd love to hear someone's feedback on. I imagine someone who is taking the fiendbound marauder option looks something like Hellboy, with his giant right hand. I loved the idea of an unarmed combatant dual wielding Hellboy hands, and thought of a Half-Giant or something like that who could manifest them on a whim using his soulknife ability. That eventually morphed into my Contemplative/MotSF build mostly because I love the flavor of having a contemplative monk so in tune with the flow of the universe he's become an Awakened Blade.

Another idea that I really liked that your very complicated explanations scared me away from was a Tactician/Aegis Awakened Blade build that dual wielded two-handed swords with the four arm mods of the aegis and the full progression of the Tactician.

I understand this may come across as thread necromancy, and for that I apologize, even though I never understood why that was a bad thing. Better to bring my thoughts to a thread that was already discussing them than start all over, in my opinion. But, I understand that it's frowned upon. I do have to say, no one has actually addressed my issues with the Awakened Blade handbook, that hasn't been completed or even progressed in years, and for that matter, no one has touched the Tactician handbook either....

Blame the quarantine for my necromancy. I've been getting back into my old metagaming ways....

[Epic Legand]

Its simple, many tables don't allow POW or Psi, and IF allowed this is the single best prestige class available. I have never played one, but thats simply because every one I map out seams so much better then the rest of the players, I feel it would be in poor taste to use him. In addition, most games end before this class could get its full return. The person who started it may have moved on to another system. However theres nothing stopping you from picking up where they left off. Its perfect for recreating a jedi. Depending on how you want to tapper off your power levels, you could squese in Psi2/Warsoul2/Edgelord1, and progress your lightsaber, force chocking-lighting and maneuvers all nicely. With the right traits-feats, At level 15, you have level 15 initiator/ level 12(15) psion and soul knife blade at 15. I love them.

[dude123nice]

So, I have two character builds in mind that I'd love to hear someone's feedback on. I imagine someone who is taking the fiendbound marauder option looks something like Hellboy, with his giant right hand. I loved the idea of an unarmed combatant dual wielding Hellboy hands, and thought of a Half-Giant or something like that who could manifest them on a whim using his soulknife ability. That eventually morphed into my Contemplative/MotSF build mostly because I love the flavor of having a contemplative monk so in tune with the flow of the universe he's become an Awakened Blade.

Another idea that I really liked that your very complicated explanations scared me away from was a Tactician/Aegis Awakened Blade build that dual wielded two-handed swords with the four arm mods of the aegis and the full progression of the Tactician.

I understand this may come across as thread necromancy, and for that I apologize, even though I never understood why that was a bad thing. Better to bring my thoughts to a thread that was already discussing them than start all over, in my opinion. But, I understand that it's frowned upon. I do have to say, no one has actually addressed my issues with the Awakened Blade handbook, that hasn't been completed or even progressed in years, and for that matter, no one has touched the Tactician handbook either....

Blame the quarantine for my necromancy. I've been getting back into my old metagaming ways....

Hmm, I was sure thread necro-ing wasn't allowed on these forums.

[Ramza00]

Just talking out loud but would Aegis 3/ Soulknife 1/ Psychic Warrior 1/ Awakened Blade be any good?

With Soulknife being both Augmented Blade and War Soul, and Psychic Warrior being Pathwalker with the Scarlet Blade or Mithral Current path.

At level 15 he should be a 15th level Aegis, 11th level Augmented Blade Soulknife (+5 soul blade), 11th level Psychic Warrior Trance, and 10th level Augmented Blade abilities.

Furthermore the Soulknife grants a 5th, 4th, and 3rd Manuever known, the Psychic Warrior also a 5th, 4th, and 3rd. And a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level known with your Prestige Class Awakened Blade in addition to the maneuvers Aegis gives depending on how many customization you spend.

[Sunforger42]

Yay for more thread necromancy.....

When I google Awakened Blade handbook, this is still the first result to come up. I figure this is where all the relevant discussion is coming, so I might as well come here instead of opening a whole new thread that ends up referring to this one, anyway.

I'm wondering if anyone is still interested in and/or doing anything about the Tactician and Awakened Blade handbooks. I think I'm going to go with two Awakened Blades in my campaign, the first a Contemplative/MotSF, just because that is so flavorful and pretty SAD. I am also going to go with a Tactician/Fiendbound Marauder dual wielder, just because I love the flavor of a two-handed Hellboy kind of thing.

I guess I have a question. Do Claws of the Ice Bear count as a single weapon? Because can't a soulknife reproduce unique weapons with the right blade skill? In which case, wouldn't that count as two spiked gauntlets? That's been my major goal with this whole build, to be honest. I'm trying to figure out a way I can use soulknife to create the gauntlets that I can enhance with the Fiendbound Marauder and Monk of the Silver Fist class abilities.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Boo for more thread necromancy.....