Daggerspell Mage cs. Arcane Trickster

[Tyger]

If you want to play a caster that doubles as a rogue, and you want the rogueish combat abilities like Sneak Attack (so Beguiler is out) which of these two wins?

It would seem that the Arcane Tricktster gets more SA, and more generally rogueish ability, though the entry requirements mean you lose an additional caster level, though still coming out with 9th level spells. And to be honest, most of the Daggerspell Mage's abilities just seem sub-par... heck, pointless.

Am I missing something there?

[Fax Celestis]

Daggerspell Mage can be qualified for by classes that don't have cantrips (like Spellthieves). Beyond that, it's really a matter of preference. Personally, I prefer Daggerspell Mage for the channeling ability, but Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack is wonderful.

[Krelon]

what about a third choice?

rogue -> assassin, a lot of sneak and some spells as well

[ZeroNumerous]

Ok. One 3rd level Arcane spell or higher + 2d6 sneak attack equates to Rogue 3/Wizard 5. Ultimately, you lose out on 3 levels of Wizard. Whereas a human wizard 5/Rogue 1 qualifies for Daggerspell. Alternatively. Rogue 5/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 10 is an entirely valid choice for a rogue-ish caster.

Or you could go Druid 5/Rogue 1/Daggerspell Shaper 10/Master of Many Forms 4 and have a sneak-attacking casting [Creature X].

[Person_Man]

I'd use Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster. That way you have 19/20 Caster Levels, and 8d6 Sneak Attack, with plenty of Skills.

I'm also partial the Psychic Rogue and Assassin, but that's off topic.

[Kaelik]

Arcane Trickster was core, when Prestige Classes were either do X better, or do X and Y at the same time. And everything took more levels to reach.

Exploit this!

Use prestige classes from supplements that give you SA like Daggerspell Mage or SpellwarpSniper to get into Arcane Trickster with many fewer lost levels.

And use Spellthief for SA. Combined with Master Spellthief you get some amazing stuff.

1)Cast spells in light Armour with no ASF penalty.
2)Don't lose a caster level for that SA dip.
3)Every time you SA, steal a spell, you can steal spells up to about the same level you can cast. (sometimes one lower.)

You cast Orb of Acid. And you did X damage. You also stole an Orb of Acid Spell. WIN!

[Vasdenjas]

Dagger-spell mage isn't bad, but seems to fit more with a scout or ranger/wizard than a rogue wizard. The requirements are too steep for someone focusing on casting (Weapon Focus Dagger and Two-Weapon Fighting).

As for Spellthief, Kaelik, the ignoring ASF penalty applies to Spellthief spells only, so any Wizard levels wouldn't help, unless you were suggesting going Sepllthief only, for both spellcasting and Sneak. If that's the case, bear in mind that Spellthieves don't get Evocation, Conjuration, or Necromancy I believe, so you'd have a hard time doing anything with Spellwarped Sniper or sneak attacking with spells. (And no Orb of Acid).

I'd agree with Person_Man about going Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster, but depending on how you placed those levels, you may have a hard time getting the required skills for Unseen Seer, and still keeping 19/20 caster levels/etc. You may also go Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarped Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster 9, but would need to get DM verification that Sudden Ray damage counts as Sneak Attack for getting into Arcane Trickster.

[Fax Celestis]

As for Spellthief, Kaelik, the ignoring ASF penalty applies to Spellthief spells only, so any Wizard levels wouldn't help, unless you were suggesting going Sepllthief only, for both spellcasting and Sneak. If that's the case, bear in mind that Spellthieves don't get Evocation, Conjuration, or Necromancy I believe, so you'd have a hard time doing anything with Spellwarped Sniper or sneak attacking with spells. (And no Orb of Acid).

Master Spellthief feat lets you cast any arcane spell in light armor.

[kme]

The problem with arcane trickster is its low BAB, and you will probably end up just being a wizard with hide who will sometimes cast a ray spell that deals slightly more damage with sneak attack.Basically you don't get any new options.

[Kaelik]

The problem with arcane trickster is its low BAB, and you will probably end up just being a wizard with hide who will sometimes cast a ray spell that deals slightly more damage with sneak attack.Basically you don't get any new options.

That's the point of Arcane Trickster! You get FULL PROGRESSION! You are Wizard who gets free SA too. Oh, and a few time a day you get to auto deny dex. You practically can't miss since it's a touch attack and the lose dex.

As for Spellthief, Kaelik, the ignoring ASF penalty applies to Spellthief spells only, so any Wizard levels wouldn't help, unless you were suggesting going Sepllthief only, for both spellcasting and Sneak. If that's the case, bear in mind that Spellthieves don't get Evocation, Conjuration, or Necromancy I believe, so you'd have a hard time doing anything with Spellwarped Sniper or sneak attacking with spells. (And no Orb of Acid).

What Fax said, which is why I specified to take Master Spellthief.

You may also go Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarped Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster 9, but would need to get DM verification that Sudden Ray damage counts as Sneak Attack for getting into Arcane Trickster.

Replace Rogue with Spellthief, and grab Master Spellthief to make that build ten times better. Also, there is something somewhere (Complete Scoundrel?) that explicitly states that Sudden Strike (not quite the same as sudden ray strike but come on.) and Sneak Attack are the same thing for the purposes of qualifying for PrCs.

[Fax Celestis]

Replace Rogue with Spellthief, and grab Master Spellthief to make that build ten times better. Also, there is something somewhere (Complete Scoundrel?) that explicitly states that Sudden Strike (not quite the same as sudden ray strike but come on.) and Sneak Attack are the same thing for the purposes of qualifying for PrCs.

It's in CAdv, near the Ninja description.

[kme]

That's the point of Arcane Trickster! You get FULL PROGRESSION! You are Wizard who gets free SA too. Oh, and a few time a day you get to auto deny dex. You practically can't miss since it's a touch attack and the lose dex.

While its a full progression it still requires 2d6 sneak attack to enter.You can be a rogue 3; rogue1 assassin1; or maybe get assassin stance from TOB somehow, although I am not sure if that would meet the prereqs.

So with a possible exception of getting a TOB stance you loose at least 2 spellcasting levels.That means 2d6 damage less with ray spells so sneak attack is even a lesser boost.It could only be useful with scorching ray or some other specific spells.

[UserClone]

IIRC (AFB at the moment) Impromptu Sneak Attack allows you to declare an attack to qualify as a sneak attack, not actually by denying Dex, or creating a flank, but just kind of...automatically. By denying the prereqs for a sneak attack.

[Kaelik]

While its a full progression it still requires 2d6 sneak attack to enter.You can be a rogue 3; rogue1 assassin1; or maybe get assassin stance from TOB somehow, although I am not sure if that would meet the prereqs.

So with a possible exception of getting a TOB stance you loose at least 2 spellcasting levels.That means 2d6 damage less with ray spells so sneak attack is even a lesser boost.It could only be useful with scorching ray or some other specific spells.

Except that with Spellthief/Master Spellthief and lots of Prestige classes that add SA and casting, you can get into it without losing any caster levels, and only one level of spell progression, and you can have lots of steal spell to go with that SA.

IIRC (AFB at the moment) Impromptu Sneak Attack allows you to declare an attack to qualify as a sneak attack, not actually by denying Dex, or creating a flank, but just kind of...automatically. By denying the prereqs for a sneak attack.

Nope, It just automatically makes them flatfooted.

[tannish2]

im an unseen seer guy here. wizard 3/spellthief 2......... or rog 2

[Krelon]

While its a full progression it still requires 2d6 sneak attack to enter.You can be a rogue 3; rogue1 assassin1; or maybe get assassin stance from TOB somehow, although I am not sure if that would meet the prereqs.

So with a possible exception of getting a TOB stance you loose at least 2 spellcasting levels.That means 2d6 damage less with ray spells so sneak attack is even a lesser boost.It could only be useful with scorching ray or some other specific spells.

Take the practiced spellcaster feat, it gives you up to +4 caster levels. Should be enough to power up the rays back again.

[Dr. Weasel]

A question:
If you were to have Assassin's Stance and you were to use it to qualify for Arcane Trickster and take four levels of the class, would switching stances mean you no longer meet the AT prerequisites (and lose all class benefits) olr does the class fill its own qualification requirements?