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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Personally, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on Solomon and it just never seems to.
    It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent.
    So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.
    Yeah, he is a failed metaphor for the oppressiveness of states. Or rather a good metaphor, because the critique that all states are oppressive is short-sighted at best.

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    I mean, at least if the law is said to be oppressive, show them hanging a few thieves or something.

    Though, I guess, technically we could say all inhabitants of Gog Agog's world are happy too.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2020-06-26 at 09:50 AM.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent.
    So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.
    That main world. Where he concentrates his power.

    Per Abaddon ...
    "Solomon David is regarded as just, even-handed, and incredibly brutal by most of his subjects. As god-emperor of the powerful Celestial Empire, his dictatorship has uplifted countless societies and crushed countless more into dust. Most people live their daily lives with a high degree of safety, industry, and prosperity under his rule, if not freedom."

    So you won't see it (much) on that world... because that's the longest that's been under his direct control and millennia of management to smooth out society through force or law ... or arms, as needs be.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Solomon isn't an Antagonist in the sense that he's an evil tyrant whose people suffer under his rule.

    Like, he is one, but as far as places to live, his chunk of the Multiverse is probably the best. Everybody seems to either live in prosperity, or was already ruthlessly destroyed. But, just as Mammon was not as simple as "Slay the Dragon", I don't think Solomon is supposed to be as simple as "Overthrow the evil empire".


    Solomon David is an Antagonist, all the Demiurges are, but this whole arc is about a philosophical conflict.

    Solomon David's premise, as outlined here, is that he is the King because he is the strongest. Violence in this setting has two meanings, the act of inflicting harm on others, and the act of inflicting your will on the world. Solomon David, perhaps more than any other character (Except, perhaps, Jagganoth), excels at these two arts.

    He sees this truth: That the strongest shall reign, as not only inevitable, but CORRECT. It is his duty to test for somebody stronger than himself, because if he is second-best, then it is his duty to abdicate.
    "So Say I. This is the Law of Kings. Either make it your own or know your place".

    This Arc we see Allison, enamored with her own strength and skill at violence, basically take Solomon's Route, attempting to assert her will through raw violence, and it doesn't work for her, and in fact, WOULD NEVER have worked for her. Allison never stood the merest scrap of a chance.
    Zoss shows up for the title drop, "The King of Swords must lay down his burden". The one who conquers CANNOT be the one to rule.

    The idea isn't that SD is a bad ruler, he seems to rule well more for the sake of his own ego than out of genuine compassion, but he DOES lead a prosperous, safe, happy nation, and that can't be discounted. He's there as a counterpoint to the idea that this story is about A Good Hero Who Beats Up The Bad Guys. That Allison (our hero) just needs to be strong enough to win a fight, and then everything will be good.

    Because, like, we already HAVE a Good Hero Who Is Really Good At Fights. Sure, he's a smug douche, but that doesn't necessarily make him Evil, and far from solving the problem, he's part of it.

    Solomon David, by his own philosophy, CANNOT condemn the crimes of the other Demiurges, since he can't beat them (If he could have, he would have), they have just as much right to their realms as he does to his. His subjects are lucky that they got the "Good" Demiurge, but the fact is the current system is built on "Who was left standing after everybody else fell down", and six out of seven times, it resulted in a cruel tyrant.

    The last time it ALSO resulted in a tyrant, just one who considers the wellbeing of his people a priority, even if it's just to feed his own ego.

    Violence is a cycle, it is self-fulfilling. Solomon David thinks he can beat it by mastering it, but that's not going to work. Jagganoth is coming, violence unrestrained by SD's sense of of honor and duty. If our hero (Allison) is to break the wheel and succeed where Zoss failed, she needs to look past the idea of violence as the answer.

    My theory, Jagganoth is going to invade, he's going get that drop of blood, and the celestial empire will be destroyed, it's god-emperor a prisoner of his own rules and dedication to the art of Violence.

    TLDR: SD isn't an antagonist because he's bad at running his empire, he's an antagonist because his philosophy is one that inevitably leads to greater violence, no matter how well-executed his reign is.
    Last edited by BRC; 2020-06-26 at 10:51 AM.
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    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
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  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    So you won't see it (much) on that world... because that's the longest that's been under his direct control and millennia of management to smooth out society through force or law ... or arms, as needs be.
    I doubt you will see much more on anything but a recently conquered world. I suspect in most cases a generation of the trains running to time and not going hungry will smooth over unrest.

    Very long post by BRC
    Well. A rather thoughful analysis. Though i still disagree with some parts of it.
    Most of all the unfounded bit about it being pride that runs Solomon. We dont have any evidence whatsoever towards this.
    Its just something that has been repeated so many times it got stuck. But thats more because, that for unfathomable reasons
    Solomon has been extremely unpopular with a vocal part of the fanbase. And so whenever he failed to eat a baby he was accused of just doing it because he was proud.

    It seems a lot more likely he runs on a mix of honor, duty, obligation, sentimentality and love.
    He has not had any daughters since he lost his family in the multiverse war. And when he had avenged his world, he goes though the massive task of getting it rebuild.
    Instead of just taking a new throne world. That does point towards a mix of sentimentality and love for his world.

    Solomon does also seem very much about tradition and obligation. I certainly dont think its a stretch to assume he genuinly believe in a rulers obligation towards his people.
    That obligation then becomes the prison White Chain taunts him with. Because he would be failing in the obligation towards his people,
    if he handed them over to someone ufit to rule.

    Where it should be pointed out. All someone has to do is to draw a drop of his blood to prove themselves worthy.
    They dont need to show they are stronger than Solomon. Just that they are strong enough to protect the Celestrial Empire.

    Because, like, we already HAVE a Good Hero Who Is Really Good At Fights. Sure, he's a smug douche, but that doesn't necessarily make him Evil, and far from solving the problem, he's part of it.
    Has commented on the smug part already (smug is just confidence in someone you dislike), but yes hilariously enough, his story reads like an old Kung-Fu movie.

    TLDR: SD isn't an antagonist because he's bad at running his empire, he's an antagonist because his philosophy is one that inevitably leads to greater violence, no matter how well-executed his reign is.
    I see it more as SD is an antagonist, because while he works at preventing things from growing worse, then he is also in the way of things getting better.

    And now i am really curious at how events will unfold.
    Honestly the situation reminds me a little of how things went in the partly obscure comic Superman Red Sun.
    Spoiler
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    Alternative universe where Superman is raised by Lenin and goes about conquering the world to protect it.
    After proving largely undefeated Lex Luthor finally beats him with a sentence, that destroyes his conviction.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Where it should be pointed out. All someone has to do is to draw a drop of his blood to prove themselves worthy.
    They dont need to show they are stronger than Solomon. Just that they are strong enough to protect the Celestrial Empire.
    Which doesn't mean they WILL protect the celestial empire. Heck, he's not even asking them to. He's putting the fate of his subjects in the hands of whomever can draw the drop of blood, either because 1) He trusts that whomever is strong enough to do so will also be a good person (Unlikely, I'd never accuse him of being an idiot), 2) he's convinced that it will never happen, or 3) as he outlines in this latest page, he views that he has a moral imperative to respect strength and skill at violence that he values higher than his moral imperative to be a good ruler.
    His criteria for "who should rule" is completely divorced from any semblence of who deserves to rule, it's just luck that the two happened to match up in him.

    This isn't the case of him selecting "Worthy Successors" he knows will rule with wisdom, and then testing them to see if they're strong enough to do the job if Mottom or whomever decides to throw down so he can retire in peace, confident that his empire is in good hands. He's literally opening the doors. It's like a modern president saying "Anybody who takes a point off me in ping-pong gets to nuke one city of their choice". Even if the president in question is an undefeated ping-pong champion, the fact that the offer is on the table shows that the leader in question values something, whether pride or strength, over the wellbeing of their people.
    Last edited by BRC; 2020-06-26 at 01:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydiro View Post
    Yeah, he is a failed metaphor for the oppressiveness of states. Or rather a good metaphor, because the critique that all states are oppressive is short-sighted at best.
    He’s a metaphor for other things as well, and I think that can fill in the gaps, but so much of him is wrapped in irl religious stuff that taking about him on here feels constantly frustrating and incomplete.
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  8. - Top - End - #638
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I doubt you will see much more on anything but a recently conquered world. I suspect in most cases a generation of the trains running to time and not going hungry will smooth over unrest.
    Depending upon the level of pride, and the adherence of tradition, Solomon changing the status quo could take a while. Or not long at all.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Which doesn't mean they WILL protect the celestial empire. Heck, he's not even asking them to. He's putting the fate of his subjects in the hands of whomever can draw the drop of blood, either because 1) He trusts that whomever is strong enough to do so will also be a good person (Unlikely, I'd never accuse him of being an idiot), 2) he's convinced that it will never happen, or 3) as he outlines in this latest page, he views that he has a moral imperative to respect strength and skill at violence that he values higher than his moral imperative to be a good ruler.
    His criteria for "who should rule" is completely divorced from any semblence of who deserves to rule, it's just luck that the two happened to match up in him.

    This isn't the case of him selecting "Worthy Successors" he knows will rule with wisdom, and then testing them to see if they're strong enough to do the job if Mottom or whomever decides to throw down so he can retire in peace, confident that his empire is in good hands. He's literally opening the doors. It's like a modern president saying "Anybody who takes a point off me in ping-pong gets to nuke one city of their choice". Even if the president in question is an undefeated ping-pong champion, the fact that the offer is on the table shows that the leader in question values something, whether pride or strength, over the wellbeing of their people.
    Well, an important clarrification. Its whoever manages to both draw a drop of blood from him, and asks to be made heir to his empire.
    Drawing blood just gets a request from Solomon. The person actually have to want to rule as well.

    And the sad point remains, that for a ruler the most important criteria isnt wisdom.
    That would not get the respect of the demi-urges, or help when Jagganoth comes knocking.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  10. - Top - End - #640
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    He’s a metaphor for other things as well, and I think that can fill in the gaps, but so much of him is wrapped in irl religious stuff that taking about him on here feels constantly frustrating and incomplete.
    I don't really see the religious metaphor. Except for the occasional halo of pride.
    The demiurges are worshipped in-universe as gods, but that has been cosistently proven untrue. Its clear they are very human, since mottom was shown as a scared old woman.

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydiro View Post
    I don't really see the religious metaphor. Except for the occasional halo of pride.
    The demiurges are worshipped in-universe as gods, but that has been cosistently proven untrue. Its clear they are very human, since mottom was shown as a scared old woman.
    Uhhh, it’s there. It plays a lot into white chains speech and a few other things but going into detail here would be crossing the line on forum rules. There are some good comments digging into it on the site itself I’ve seen.
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  12. - Top - End - #642
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Uhhh, it’s there. It plays a lot into white chains speech and a few other things but going into detail here would be crossing the line on forum rules. There are some good comments digging into it on the site itself I’ve seen.
    At times like this those rules get really annoying. But all the same i must confess i cant see the connections either.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    I mean, they are called demiurges for a reason.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    I mean, they are called demiurges for a reason.
    Yeah. I dont see whats special with that word. I have seen it a few places.
    And honestly dont get why that should dig further into real world religion than stuff like god or angel.

    Else. New comic.
    Something is up. And it look suspicious.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  15. - Top - End - #645
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Yeah. I dont see whats special with that word. I have seen it a few places.
    It means "Creator" in Greek, and it is used as an epithet for the Christian God.
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Something is up. And it look suspicious.
    The Keys respond to Will and Desire, do they not?

    And if your will is shaken... well...
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    It means "Creator" in Greek, and it is used as an epithet for the Christian God.
    Not the meaning or the religion I meant, but I'm not sure I can go into it.

    Ah, heck, I'll just link it and hope the mods won't nuke me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Gnosticism

    See also later down the list: seven evil archons (rulers) of the multiverse and the name Yaldabaoth, which can't possibly be a coincidence. Also to note one Archon being called David.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2020-06-29 at 10:56 AM.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Someone in the comments pointed out something interesting: Ki Rata needs perfect control. It can be lethal if performed wrong. Maybe throwing Solomon off his game can actually work.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
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  19. - Top - End - #649
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    I feel like Solomon has to try a ten point strike, just for completion.

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by Thales View Post
    I feel like Solomon has to try a ten point strike, just for completion.
    Why would he want to destroy Rayuba? That's where he keeps his favorite stuff.

  21. - Top - End - #651
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Why would he want to destroy Rayuba? That's where he keeps his favorite stuff.
    Yeah, that's the main argument against it. Then again, the five point strike, while devastating, was also extremely precise. Perhaps the ten point one could be as well, just with even more destructive force?

  22. - Top - End - #652
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Ah, heck, I'll just link it and hope the mods won't nuke me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Gnosticism

    See also later down the list: seven evil archons (rulers) of the multiverse and the name Yaldabaoth, which can't possibly be a coincidence. Also to note one Archon being called David.
    Oh i see. Cool. This does explain where that weird Lion-headed snake thing in Dominions 5 come from.
    And i can see there obviously is some inspiration here. Though clearly its for a large part names and so on.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Oh i see. Cool. This does explain where that weird Lion-headed snake thing in Dominions 5 come from.
    And i can see there obviously is some inspiration here. Though clearly its for a large part names and so on.
    Wayyyyyyy more then names.
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Well fair. More than just purely names.
    It relates to that real religion, the same way Marvels Thor Ragnarog relates to a real religion?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    With all this build up and people excitedly cheering White Chain on, I'm actually kind of hoping she's going to fail miserably and get smacked down without even extracting the single drop of blood people think she's going to manage.

    Just to further hammer in Zoss telling them off for trying to take the Demiurges head on.

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well fair. More than just purely names.
    It relates to that real religion, the same way Marvels Thor Ragnarog relates to a real religion?
    Maybe a bit more, since at least Abaddon's writings if not the actual comic scripts are interested in philosophical writing, but yeah, basically.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Well.. as such the Marvel movies -does- also seem to adhere to old viking philosophy?
    Thor is awesome! Violence is great!
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Point taken. They actually get the general theme of some Thor stories pretty right. I meant more the story outline of Ragnarök. Most of that is missing. We don't even have a Tyr or Balder, who are some of the most important gods in the story. And Odin dies before ever meeting Fenrir.
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    Well yeah. I think Thor Ragnarok hits the tone of Thors wedding quite right
    Thats likely one of the most fameous stories.

    Actual Ragnarok meanwhile is a bit more somber.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning thr

    New page.

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    The saddest thing is, that never once, in the history of anime and manga, has such an all-out attack by a hero, ever actually accomplished anything. It's the quintessential Worf Barrage.
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