Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning threads

[BRC]

As with our host's comic, I suspect the final book may be longest and the one that gets furthest into what exactly the nature of the world is.

I wouldn't be surprised if Allison gives her key to Zaid at some point. We know there's some time loop thing going on, and I kind of expect Zaid to grow up to be Zoss. K6BD's creator said some stuff along the lines of Zaid's name not being a coincidence, they don't look radically different (modulo thousands of years of hard living and fighting), and there has to be some reason why Zoss turned up there of all places. To be more specific, I think it's possible that the Conquering King and the Ruling King are actually different people who got conflated through the mists of history. Allison's destiny is as the Conquering King, then she hands off the key to Zaid, who rules as Zoss, who hands it back to young Allison, repeat ad infinitum unless one of the two similarly-named-and-motivated Juggernaut characters can break the wheel. Or, more narratively likely, this Allison does with the help of her friends.

That doesn't work, Zoss has spent too much time talking about his own mistakes for him to not be the Conquering King.
Also, Allison's whole character arc in this book doesn't work well if the conclusion is that Allison becomes the Conquering King.

What seems more likely is that, if Zaid is Zoss, and there is a time-loop going on, Allison receiving the key represents Breaking the loop.

Zoss conquers the universe, tries to fix it, fails, gives the key to his younger self, and the whole cycle begins again. This repeats ad-nauseum until one particular loop, Zoss instead gives the key to Allison instead.
Which sets up that Allison's job is to succeed where Zoss failed?

But, 1) Zoss told Allison to give up the power to another, and 2) The Demiurges still need to be dealt with.

So maybe the idea is that Allison is supposed to be Conquering King 2.0, beating up the Demiurges, who then sets about giving up her power to somebody else. Maybe the idea is that Zaid/Zoss COULD break the wheel, but the skills he needed to learn to become the Conquering King changed him into somebody who COULDN'T. Violence begets violence, so the master of violence (The Conquering King) is incapable of bringing about peace.

So maybe it goes Zoss (Conquering King) > Allison (Conquering King 2.0, Kill Six Billion Demons) > Zaid (Ruling King)

[Dragonus45]

So I’m extrapolating a bit from some stuff in the lancer rpg, specifically the bit about how time dilation as a plot point can be used to endorce the need for large scale system as a narrative opposed to single people or elite groups enforcing change, but I think the idea of Alison giving up her Key is going to involve her sharing power with multiple people not just Zaid. I’m thinking she may even wind up giving a bunch of power to White Chain during the fight.

[Kaptin Keen]

The author pointed out that Zoss has namedropped each book's title, and the mouseover text on the most recent drop says "Only one more title drop to go in the whole series!" So that means one more book.

It could equally mean the end of Zoss.

[Eldan]

In which Solomon is supremely smug, to no one's surprise.

[lord_khaine]

I dont think you can call it smug when he seemingly has mastered every martial art style in the universe.
And for the moment, it seems like he is content to just mirror White Chains choice of style.

[Shogo]

Honestly, one of the best things about K6BD right now is the way that people twist themselves into knots trying to interpret every single little thing Solomon says or does in the worst possible light.

[lord_khaine]

Honestly, one of the best things about K6BD right now is the way that people twist themselves into knots trying to interpret every single little thing Solomon says or does in the worst possible light.

It is at time staggering how far people are ready to go in the comment thread.
Like second degree speculation, or worse.

I guess his magnificent beard or oiled biceps just trigger something in people.

[Dragonus45]

I mean, the guy clearly is a massive *******. He clearly is one of the most smug beings in all of creation. But it’s also fair to say that he is the least evil of the various demiurges and seems to when a sense of honor and decency’s. People just focus on the first hits and pretend the rest is irrelevant.

[lord_khaine]

I honestly think even the *banana* bit is fairly minor. I mean, whats the most *banana*-ish move we have seen him make?
Kill a handful of people in a blood tournament? (alright, a large handful)

I also think called him smug is perhaps incorret. As far as i can see, smug is the word you use when someone you dislike are being proud.
And the dictionary define it as"having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements."

Except, Solomons achivements litterally break any sort of measuring system we can apply to it from our world.
So he is as such entitled to be proud of them.

Something that also leads me to what i think is the reason for why Solomon wont use Ki Rata in this fight.
He might litterally be the most skilled martial artist in all of creation? (if some of Zoss's power came from being closer to true royalty).
But what he wants is respect from his peers. Since normal people cant really tell the difference between the top contestants.
So on this the only people whose oppinion matters are likely the 2 angels.

[PraetorDragoon]

The only thing that Solomon wants as far as I can tell is to remake his homeworld and make it an eternal empire. (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...f-swords-4-45/) I am not sure if he wants any respect of his peers beyond being acknowledged the best. (His acting during the concordance of the demiurges makes him look like he thinks he stands above them. )

[lord_khaine]

The only thing that Solomon wants as far as I can tell is to remake his homeworld and make it an eternal empire. (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/com...f-swords-4-45/) I am not sure if he wants any respect of his peers beyond being acknowledged the best. (His acting during the concordance of the demiurges makes him look like he thinks he stands above them. )

Your taking Incubus's word for cannon? Incubus whom we have already seen be told he knew nothing by Zoss?
Incubus who are telling Allison a story there meant to manipulate her?

Solomon David already has restored his homeworld. That objective is complete.

And right now he is treating the surviving top contestants like honored guests.
As well as giving White Chain what can only be called a fair fight.

[PraetorDragoon]

Your taking Incubus's word for cannon? Incubus whom we have already seen be told he knew nothing by Zoss?
Incubus who are telling Allison a story there meant to manipulate her?

Solomon David already has restored his homeworld. That objective is complete.

And right now he is treating the surviving top contestants like honored guests.
As well as giving White Chain what can only be called a fair fight.

It is one of the concrete goals of Solomon that i could find. The other is that he wants to continue his journey to True Royalty, and to do so he needs to find somebody worthy to pass things over. The latter is a bit similiar to his desire to make his homeworld-empire immortal.

Not sure if I would call "being thrown in jail and kept under guard watch" honored guests, but who knows. I don't know the housing conditions of Solomon's worlds.

And I agree on the fair fight. I did not expect him to utilize the same martial arts.

[lord_khaine]

It is one of the concrete goals of Solomon that i could find. The other is that he wants to continue his journey to True Royalty, and to do so he needs to find somebody worthy to pass things over. The latter is a bit similiar to his desire to make his homeworld-empire immortal.

Its Incubuses idea of what Solomons goals are.
And none of those explain why he is mirroring White Chains choice of style.
Hence, he has other goals and desires besides those 2.

The respect and admiration of your peers are a very human one. That does explain why he might be doing this.

Not sure if I would call "being thrown in jail and kept under guard watch" honored guests, but who knows. I don't know the housing conditions of Solomon's worlds.

Its honored guests who are also troublemakers.

[Thales]

Count me in the "Solomon David is a bad guy" camp. Relevantly, I think Abbadon is also in that camp. Look at page 10-145. The comic's description says

“Chief among the concerns of any code of punishment is that it is important for the executed to have dignity. A man’s death must be treated with reverence and not treated at some soiled thing. It therefore transforms from a wrongdoing into a spectacle.”

which seems to be implying that (this) execution is a wrongdoing. The rollover text calls out Solomon for being "suspiciously slightly better dressed" in this sort of fight.

On page 10-144, the comic's text is more explicit:

“Enyis reached the city of Golden Flowing Water, which was at the time the most brutal domain in the world. For spitting in public there, one could lose a finger. It was a thirsty, conquering city that took many slaves, enjoyed the whip, and worshiped the sword.
Enyis was surprised to find the streets sparkling clean and orderly. The buildings were well constructed, airy, and it was scattered with well tended gardens redolent with many colorful flowers.
‘They must enrapture you with splendor,’ said the Boar King, who had noticed Enyis’ confusion. ‘Otherwise, you might look down and notice the blood-matted beast who shoulders this city, and your mind will fill with unpleasant truths.'”
– Enyis and the Fivefold Sword

While this is referring to something other than Solomon David's domain, it's clearly trying to draw a parallel. Rayuba is beautiful, but it's built on a cruel order.

Page 10-142's text criticizes Solomon's tendency to essentially play with his foes while dressing it up as honor:

Instead, you must nurse your foe back to health, dress, and feed him, but not so much that he regains his strength. You must take away every aspect of him which originally seemed fierce and indestructible. In every aspect you must diminish and crush his spirit with affection, all the while maintaining your grip on his sword arm. In this way, kindness is the greatest cruelty.

Finally, White Chain's motivation for challenging Solomon David make explicit what I suspect is also Abbadon's beef with his system:

"The system that does everything in its power to crush those who stand out, and reward those who do things the 'right way'. The system that destroys the young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational... It sacrifices those that dream of a different world for the sake of brutal pragmatism. To grind down history into a stagnant nothingness. That system is built on fear, Allison. All for fear of failure. For fear of losing control. [...] I defended it every second of my life, even as I railed against its cruelty, even as I myself suffered for it."

Obviously, characters say things that are wrong, and in this comic in particular, our protagonists take on some ill-thought-out positions. But part of the reason for that is one of the messages of the comic is in favor of the "young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational". Those people won't always make great decisions (e.g. inviting Incubus in), but the message is that the devil you know really isn't necessarily better than the one you don't. I'm pretty sure White Chain is speaking for Abbadon here, and I think most of us who think Solomon David is a bad guy endorse this reasoning or something like that.

Sorry I don't have links; my account is too new to be allowed to post those.

[lord_khaine]

Count me in the "Solomon David is a bad guy" camp. Relevantly, I think Abbadon is also in that camp. Look at page 10-145. The comic's description says

Abbadon is just 1 guy. Good/Bad is a extremely subjective matter. That he thinks it isnt more important than that you think so.

which seems to be implying that (this) execution is a wrongdoing. The rollover text calls out Solomon for being "suspiciously slightly better dressed" in this sort of fight.

What execution? We have not yet seen one of those in the celestrial empire.
As for Solomon being slightly better dressed? Well if someone wants to out-dress Solomon they should bring their own robes.

While this is referring to something other than Solomon David's domain, it's clearly trying to draw a parallel. Rayuba is beautiful, but it's built on a cruel order.

Except the description we have had of Rayban does not involve cruel. Harsh and unyelding yes. Cruel no.

Page 10-142's text criticizes Solomon's tendency to essentially play with his foes while dressing it up as honor:

Instead, you must nurse your foe back to health, dress, and feed him, but not so much that he regains his strength. You must take away every aspect of him which originally seemed fierce and indestructible. In every aspect you must diminish and crush his spirit with affection, all the while maintaining your grip on his sword arm. In this way, kindness is the greatest cruelty.

Hmm.. no that does not criticize it. It just explains what Solomon does to achive a complete victory.
But as such it does not have any relevance to the fight between Solomon and White Chain.

Finally, White Chain's motivation for challenging Solomon David make explicit what I suspect is also Abbadon's beef with his system:

Not going to touch this. Since you -really- dont know what Abbadon thinks. And so really should not try and put words in the mouth of the author.

Obviously, characters say things that are wrong, and in this comic in particular, our protagonists take on some ill-thought-out positions. But part of the reason for that is one of the messages of the comic is in favor of the "young and foolish, the hopeful and aspirational". Those people won't always make great decisions (e.g. inviting Incubus in), but the message is that the devil you know really isn't necessarily better than the one you don't. I'm pretty sure White Chain is speaking for Abbadon here, and I think most of us who think Solomon David is a bad guy endorse this reasoning or something like that.

Sorry I don't have links; my account is too new to be allowed to post those.

Its again very easy to go for the higher moral ground, or the long shots, when you got protagonist grade plot armor.
But whats important to remember here, is whats some of the alternatives are. We got worlds devoured to the ground. We got worlds reduced to a muddy slum.
And we got a crusade to reduce everything to ash.

[PraetorDragoon]

Its Incubuses idea of what Solomons goals are.
And none of those explain why he is mirroring White Chains choice of style.
Hence, he has other goals and desires besides those 2.

The respect and admiration of your peers are a very human one. That does explain why he might be doing this.



Its honored guests who are also troublemakers.

I will accept the troublemakers reason.

Respect and admiration of his peers is a valid reason. Thing is that I haven't seen anything in the comic regarding Solomon that indicates that. So far most of his interactions with others have been asserting his superiority. In many cases valid superiority, indeed. But respect and admiration of his peers.... Not seen that so far.

[Dragonus45]

I agree that Abaddon clearly intends for SD to be seen as a villain, and I don't even entirely disagree with the notion. But in general I tend to be surprised by people treating him like he is the most evil of the 7. It's very clear his actions in creating an empire as Lawful and impartial as possible and his constant worry about what happens to it if he stops looking comes from the total anarchy and destruction that left his world a lifeless ball of rock. So he responds be going hard the other way, a world where you may lack dignity on a personal level but at least you have some rules to follow and survive the nonsensical brutality that is creation. See also, his refusal to have more daughters after the death of his original family. Clearly the guy is still nursing some scars over the subject deep dpown. This is why White Chain is such a good foil. She has lived an eternity under the thumb of the angels and their lawful stagnant culture, and she sees fighting SD as her way to break free of that. I'm not exactly convinced she needs "atonement" for anything in particular but she does so that's whatever. The main idea here though is that he seems like the most reasonable and least awful of a group of people who are setting a really low bar on that front, but people.

[Rydiro]

I think Solomon is an utterly failed metaphor. Its pretty clear that he is at least a decent ruler concerned with the wellbeing of his people AND that he holds up the rule of law. Thats like better than 50% of real world states, where corrupt governments rule.
There is not a single thing in the text that makes him evil, he is actively trying to make the world a better place. (Maybe he is not 100% efficient in that, considering the lack of pioneers/engineers in his legions) White chain is being antagonistic for some made-up reason. I think thats poor writing. It makes the Protagonists look really stupid.

[lord_khaine]

Respect and admiration of his peers is a valid reason. Thing is that I haven't seen anything in the comic regarding Solomon that indicates that. So far most of his interactions with others have been asserting his superiority. In many cases valid superiority, indeed. But respect and admiration of his peers.... Not seen that so far.

Well im not saying the clues are not subtle and open for interpretation.
But i do think he displayed respect towards the top contestants of his tournament? At least the non-troublemaker ones.
Who were stored in a cell before given a prime seat at the fight.

Vigilant Gaze meanwhile has seemingly not been under guard.

And he is going out of his way to make the fight with White Chain fair. Getting her fixed as well as possible.
Limiting himself to the style she is using (or that might also be showing off for her). Not using magic nor Ki Rata.

None of this is stuff he has do to. Certainly, SD could always have flicked her out of the Arena with Ki Rata or telekinesis had he wanted to.
So main reason not to do that, seems either to enjoy the chance of a good clean fight. Or wanting the respect of your opponent.
Likely its both.

Else, regarding the points made by Dragonus and Rydio.
It at least seems clear that Solomon David is an opponent. Someone whose goals of stability has in part become stagnation, because the alternative brought risk of utter destruction.
So there are already there reason for conflict between him and those wanting changes.

And yeah. White Chain is perhaps blowing the issue a little bit out of proportion.
I mean we saw just what utterly horrible situation it seemed like Throne were in?
That place certainly seemed a lot less safe.

[Rydiro]

And yeah. White Chain is perhaps blowing the issue a little bit out of proportion.
I mean we saw just what utterly horrible situation it seemed like Throne were in?
That place certainly seemed a lot less safe.

Thats kind of the point, why of all the things going poorly, is WC picking a fight with Solomon? Why doesn't she say oppose the thorn angels who wronged and forced WC to be their thug? Thats the real issue she has and she takes it out on Solomon. Thats self-centered and not at all heroic.

[Bobb]

I also got some whiplash from WC's pre-duel speech.


I saw most of the entrants as little incubuses. Power hungry wannabes who only understand violence. After all, they're killing each other for a shot at the throne and don't seem to realize how woefully outmatched they are.

Frankly, I saw the whole tourney scene as a safety release valve for dangerous, psychotic would be tyrants and gave Solomon props for saving on secret police budget.



Hearing white chain, of all people, going on about how Solomon was stepping on the face of the future and solutions because he was brutally murdering brutal murderers....

it didn't hit the mark for me.

[mystic1110]

The problem with Solomon is it doesn't truly matter that he is autocratic or despotic or egotistical or patriarchal or smug as hell. None of it matters when you compare living under his rule compared to living under any of the other demiurges. Moreover, it doesn't matter because there is no other system to replace him with. This isn't a situation in the real world where you can argue for democracy over tyranny or freedom over fascism - without Solomon the entire kingdom gets wiped out by another of the seven or it falls to infighting. People in this world have the power and powers that people in real life don't have. Without Solomon the kingdom will tear itself apart or be eaten whole. So it doesn't really matter what label you give him, and you can find enough reasons to put any label on him, he has Vetinari Job Security. In short he is necessary.

In effect think of the Cold War but the President of the U.S. and the Secretary of the Communist party in the Soviet Union were the Nuclear Weapons. Like neither the Soviets or the U.S. had any Nuclear weapons at all but their leaders were the physical embodiment of a thousand nuclear bombs. You can't tell the leader to pack it up because otherwise you would have no mutually assured destruction. You could not have told Truman to leave office since you didn't like his social policies if Truman was ALL THE BOMBS. The only solutions are to (1) have the leaders pull a Cincinnatus and retire, but they would all have to do it, or (2) depower all the leaders similar to nuclear disarmament.

[Dragonus45]

Else, regarding the points made by Dragonus and Rydio.
It at least seems clear that Solomon David is an opponent. Someone whose goals of stability has in part become stagnation, because the alternative brought risk of utter destruction.
So there are already there reason for conflict between him and those wanting changes.

I'll just say that regarding what we know from say Lancer, or the hilarious alt text of the page White Chain makes her speech on its clear SD is meant to be seen as a much greater evil then context warrants.

I think Solomon is an utterly failed metaphor. Its pretty clear that he is at least a decent ruler concerned with the wellbeing of his people AND that he holds up the rule of law. Thats like better than 50% of real world states, where corrupt governments rule.
There is not a single thing in the text that makes him evil, he is actively trying to make the world a better place. (Maybe he is not 100% efficient in that, considering the lack of pioneers/engineers in his legions) White chain is being antagonistic for some made-up reason. I think thats poor writing. It makes the Protagonists look really stupid.

The problem with Solomon is it doesn't truly matter that he is autocratic or despotic or egotistical or patriarchal or smug as hell. None of it matters when you compare living under his rule compared to living under any of the other demiurges. Moreover, it doesn't matter because there is no other system to replace him with. This isn't a situation in the real world where you can argue for democracy over tyranny or freedom over fascism - without Solomon the entire kingdom gets wiped out by another of the seven or it falls to infighting. People in this world have the power and powers that people in real life don't have. Without Solomon the kingdom will tear itself apart or be eaten whole. So it doesn't really matter what label you give him, and you can find enough reasons to put any label on him, he has Vetinari Job Security. In short he is necessary.

Sure, there isn't a system to replace him, but he could be better, and I think that is a real concrete complaint. He had the power to move a sun around willy nilly and apparently reach enlightenment through martial arts breatihng bull**** but can't manage a system even marginally more flexible and less brittle then his current one? The "brutal pragmatism" of his variety of authoritarianism is absolutely worth throwing some rage against. He absolutely did fail his people on a lot of ways. He just really failed them least of all the other insane creatures currently running creation.

[mystic1110]

Sure, there isn't a system to replace him, but he could be better, and I think that is a real concrete complaint. He had the power to move a sun around willy nilly and apparently reach enlightenment through martial arts breatihng bull**** but can't manage a system even marginally more flexible and less brittle then his current one? The "brutal pragmatism" of his variety of authoritarianism is absolutely worth throwing some rage against. He absolutely did fail his people on a lot of ways. He just really failed them least of all the other insane creatures currently running creation.

He can definitely be better - and I expect that if WC gets drop of blood off him it wouldn't be a wish of "step down" or "give up your power" but instead something to the effect of "be better".

[Ibrinar]

I also got some whiplash from WC's pre-duel speech.


I saw most of the entrants as little incubuses. Power hungry wannabes who only understand violence. After all, they're killing each other for a shot at the throne and don't seem to realize how woefully outmatched they are.

Frankly, I saw the whole tourney scene as a safety release valve for dangerous, psychotic would be tyrants and gave Solomon props for saving on secret police budget.



Hearing white chain, of all people, going on about how Solomon was stepping on the face of the future and solutions because he was brutally murdering brutal murderers....

it didn't hit the mark for me.

People complain about negative views of solomon not having enough back up in their opinion. Bobb: "everyone taking part in a fighting tournament that rewards rulership is a psychotic would be tyrant and cutting them down is for the best". Lol. No offense I just found judging all the participants that strongly purely because they are participants a bit silly in that context (well in general too.)

[lord_khaine]

People complain about negative views of solomon not having enough back up in their opinion. Bobb: "everyone taking part in a fighting tournament that rewards rulership is a psychotic would be tyrant and cutting them down is for the best". Lol. No offense I just found judging all the participants that strongly purely because they are participants a bit silly in that context (well in general too.)

Well your missing out key bits. Its not the ones participating.
Its the ones that..
a) get kicked out of the arena by a crazy blue devil girl.
b) watches her in turn get her ass kicked in the angel showdown.
c) see Juggernaut and Gazes wreck the arena even further.
d) observes that Solomon is still protecting them and the audience from getting smoked.
e) Is told "you win second prize! wealth! fame! prestige!"
f) Goes "nope.. i can take that guy!"

That takes a rather serious disconnect from reality.
I think its at least partially fair to assume the wast majority of them are baby-incubuses in the making.
Except of course that Incubus is a genius (and a psycopath).

[BRC]

Am I the only one seeing a repeated theme of Kings being Prisoners.

Like, we have the King of the Devils as a most literal example.
One of the Demiurges, I forget what their name is, the one stuck in the crystal, this one https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/ksbd-4-77/ is also pretty literally a prisoner.

Mottom described herself as trapped by her court, Mammon is basically a prisoner of the Count and his own senility, and now we have White Chain describing Solomon as a prisoner.

[tyckspoon]

Am I the only one seeing a repeated theme of Kings being Prisoners.

No, it's absolutely one of the major motifs - all of these beings that sought power because they thought it would free them from their limitations, ending up trapped by their own choices, from Zoss to the demiurges to the Followers chasing Alison around to the Thorn Knights. Contrast to the main trio - a nobody barista who was given unlimited power, then subjected to a series of trials that are mostly teaching her that power doesn't solve problems. A devil that was at the height of strength for her kind, then gave it all up because she found it didn't make her happy. An angel, a being literally crafted to be the gods' own lawbeings, that is choosing self-determination - not following the dictates of the Old Law, or the orders of a superior angel. All learning to choose differently, to choose what makes them fulfilled over what allows them to punch somebody even harder. This is what Zoss is banking on, I believe, hoping (or knowing, depending on how his whole detached-from-time cycle thing works) that they will get into a position where their lessons and changes can break the domination of violence.

[lord_khaine]

It will certainly make an interesting case, if White Chain can defeat Solomon with words, where gods know how many has failed with violence.

[Eldan]

Personally, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on Solomon and it just never seems to.
It is clear that he is intended as an antagonist, and yet, his world seems safe, stable and prosperous. We are told the laws are harsh, but we dont' see it. So I agree that we are getting mixed signals here. I find Solomon unpleasant as a person, but he is apparently competent and at least not malevolent.
So, for the time being, yeah, I think he's the man for the job as far as running the multiverse. Unless we cut to the gigantic pit of dismembered people he eats alive to feed his power or something along those lines in the next few pages.