Kill6BillionDemons II: The Successor's coming will be followed by 108 burning threads

[Onyavar]

Or it WAS in their instructions, and this has all been part of Metatron's plan from the start.

Longtime plans belong to the most ridiculous tropes in epic science fantasy. They are secret until they are flawlessly pulled off after ten thousand years, with never a structural change in the plan. Strategy and tactics? Naw, we have a long term plan.

In this case, you suspect Metatron let Zoss capture and torture him and also deliberately weakened the angels position, so that two thousand years later, he could initiate the next phase of his secret long term plan to restore the angels' supreme power...?

That sounds like Microsoft selling their most profitable core branches to hundred different competitors, but secretly planning to buy them all back from the invested interest (and with an overall profit) ten years later after the competitors have run their businesses into the ground.
Such a flawless longtime plan can't go wrong after all.

[Olinser]

Longtime plans belong to the most ridiculous tropes in epic science fantasy. They are secret until they are flawlessly pulled off after ten thousand years, with never a structural change in the plan. Strategy and tactics? Naw, we have a long term plan.

In this case, you suspect Metatron let Zoss capture and torture him and also deliberately weakened the angels position, so that two thousand years later, he could initiate the next phase of his secret long term plan to restore the angels' supreme power...?

That sounds like Microsoft selling their most profitable core branches to hundred different competitors, but secretly planning to buy them all back from the invested interest (and with an overall profit) ten years later after the competitors have run their businesses into the ground.
Such a flawless longtime plan can't go wrong after all.

It can't go wrong when you can actually see the future.

Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).

10000 years is nothing to an immortal, eternal angel if your end goal is much greater.

[lord_khaine]

It can't go wrong when you can actually see the future.

Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).

10000 years is nothing to an immortal, eternal angel if your end goal is much greater.

Remember it was a "lesser" human who initially trashed all the prime angels.
And so far we have not gotten any signs from any angel that they posses future sight. Or know about other angels having future sight.

So its just as likely, if not more likely, that the future sight Jadis has, and that broke her mind, is a unique ability of hers.
Its certainly not an ability any other demi-urge has shown sight of either.

[Onyavar]

The perfect foresight angle is a paradox. If you can see the exact future before it happens just like you saw it, then you can't change the future. You can't even change your actions, it's all predetermined.

If you can shape the future through your actions and still watch the possible futures fluctuate/change accordingly, then you rather shouldn't choose an action that will first of all cripple your ability to do anything, and reducing your power and influence for thousands of years. I mean, you could, but as a prime angle ruling over a perfect heavenly Throne, what would motivate him to turn his world over to people who would ruin it? The promise of a new al-yisun, yeah maybe, but that would mean our fledgling heroine will soon enough turn into a transcended goddess.

Granted, I think Metatron has great wisdom, and he's got the intel to pull many strings via the thornies and 2Michael, but I guess his plan(s) are fallible and not based on his own prophecies and visions.

[Hamsandlich]

Remember, per the creator Jadis explicitly has perfect sight of the future from her Key, which was also stolen by Zoss from Metatron. So Metatron almost certainly has some ability to see the future (to what degree is arguable - but if Jadis, a lesser human, has perfect future sight then its not unreasonable to say Metatron does as well).

Jadis has perfect sight of the future because she used her immense knowledge of the Art (and apparently techno-priests) to travel outside the Wheel and Witness The Shape. The act vaporized the techno-bishops and relegated her to her current rotting form trapped in crystal stasis.

[guttering flame]

Jadis has perfect sight of the future because she used her immense knowledge of the Art (and apparently techno-priests) to travel outside the Wheel and Witness The Shape. The act vaporized the techno-bishops and relegated her to her current rotting form trapped in crystal stasis.

Source please?

[rooster707]

Source please?

I don’t have an exact quote* but it’s somewhere on Abbadon’s tumblr.

_{*does... does tumblr not have a search function? What the heck?}

[Iruka]

I don’t have an exact quote* but it’s somewhere on Abbadon’s tumblr.

_{*does... does tumblr not have a search function? What the heck?}

What I did was open the archive and filter for 'Ask', then use crtl-f. Still a tedious process because it only searches a part of the page, I guess it does not load the whole thing at once?

Here is what I found:

Jadis is never wrong,

because Jadis is the Bearer of the Shape.

Jadis' knowledge is unrivaled.

Jadis is (or rather was) very powerful.

The technopriests died when beholding the Shape.

I found nothing which directly says she has pefect knowledge of the future, just that she is never wrong. Note that all her prophecies are also filtered through the interpretations of her priests.

[lord_khaine]

I found nothing which directly says she has pefect knowledge of the future, just that she is never wrong. Note that all her prophecies are also filtered through the interpretations of her priests.

We were told she were omniscent. That does mean she knows everything.

[Dragonus45]

I thought the deal was that she was always 100% accurate but not always properly interpreted?

[guttering flame]

Did Jadis do like Aesma and broke out of the universe to take a peek?

[Aquillion]

It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least partially apocryphal. The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible. (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at best Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking. YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)

But if we take it seriously, I would argue that Aesma didn't really comprehend the shape of the universe. "It was wheel-shaped" isn't really meant to be seen as the serious answer of someone who has obtained enlightenment on all things; the title of the story is, after all, "Aesma and the Three Masters (And The Lessons She Never Learned from Them)" The story emphasizes that Aesma's teachings are about constant striving, but it doesn't imply that she actually successfully achieved anything akin to what Jadis did (and one of the links above explicitly says Jadis is the only one to ever actually do it.)

In comparison, Jadis' story is more of a cautionary tale of what happens when you actually reach THE END and peek at the metaphorical last page of the book of creation, ie. you become a burnt-out shell wishing you were dead. In that respect you could see her as a sort of counterpoint to that story about Aesma - Aesma knows nothing but is constantly striving; but Jadis' life story is basically "but don't actually succeed, in a cosmically final absolute sense, or you'll regret it. You want to keep struggling to turn another page. You don't want to peek at the entire story. Don't do that."

[guttering flame]

It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least partially apocryphal. The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible. (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at best Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking. YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)

We're told repeatedly the world is one big paradox so just add it to the pile. If you want a logical explanation, maybe Yisun can divide itself all it wants, its totality remain. You can divide the sea but you still have sea. Or the universes and its gods are Yisun and character Yisun is a personification the other gods can conjure with their power.

But if we take it seriously, I would argue that Aesma didn't really comprehend the shape of the universe. "It was wheel-shaped" isn't really meant to be seen as the serious answer of someone who has obtained enlightenment on all things; the title of the story is, after all, "Aesma and the Three Masters (And The Lessons She Never Learned from Them)" The story emphasizes that Aesma's teachings are about constant striving, but it doesn't imply that she actually successfully achieved anything akin to what Jadis did (and one of the links above explicitly says Jadis is the only one to ever actually do it.)

Yes, I know. I wondered whether Jadis did the same things to reach her enlightenment. Aesma was concentrating too hard on her own navel to notice anything significant about the universe.

In comparison, Jadis' story is more of a cautionary tale of what happens when you actually reach THE END and peek at the metaphorical last page of the book of creation, ie. you become a burnt-out shell wishing you were dead. In that respect you could see her as a sort of counterpoint to that story about Aesma - Aesma knows nothing but is constantly striving; but Jadis' life story is basically "but don't actually succeed, in a cosmically final absolute sense, or you'll regret it. You want to keep struggling to turn another page. You don't want to peek at the entire story. Don't do that."

Or maybe it's 'Don't try to imitate a Goddess among Goddesses like Aesma because you're a mere mortal.' Jadis was vain enough to believe she could better Aesma and like the 3 Masters her success was a failure.

[Gez]

Or maybe it's 'Don't try to imitate a Goddess among Goddesses like Aesma because you're a mere mortal.' Jadis was vain enough to believe she could better Aesma and like the 3 Masters her success was a failure.

Whereas for Aesma, her failure was a success. She didn't get a good look at the Wheel and didn't understand what she saw, so she was fine. She was just too dumb to lose, basically.

The universe seems to favor arrogant loudmouth idiots who act over the wise and cautious who merely contemplate because they are too aware to dare to act.

[tyckspoon]

The universe seems to favor arrogant loudmouth idiots who act over the wise and cautious who merely contemplate because they are too aware to dare to act.

Reach Heaven Through Violence. The sanctioned Action is To Cut. Sitting around meditating is for those who couldn't hack it on the real road to Royalty.

[Professor Gnoll]

It's important to remember that the stories about Aesma are at least partially apocryphal. The story you're referring to, for instance, has her speaking to and interacting with YISUN as if they're a person, which is patiently impossible. (YISUN's holy suicide is the reason anything exists, including Aesma herself, so at best Aesma can only consult the fragment of YISUN that exists within herself, metaphorically speaking. YISUN sitting around talking to his disciples is patient nonsense or, at best, a metaphor.)

In the same way Allison talking to Zoss is impossible, since he's dead, right?
Remember that YISUN exists outside of causality.
...the stories are still not necessarily literal, but that's not the best reason why.

[Onyavar]

Hiatus is over, and Allison puts her fort into her mouth. Well almost. She apparently learned what topic to avoid near White Chain.

I wonder if they are now returning to Chio?

[Tom Tearcamel]

Mystery Angel! But, the mention of good ol’ White Chain Born In Emptiness Returns To Subdue Evil causes him to awaken from the void. More antagonists?

I’m a firm believer in the Law of Conservation of Characters when it’s practical. My guess is it’s 10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon, and he’s going to try to use 82WC to counter 6 Juggernaut Star Scours the Universe and the Thorns, at the expense of Allison, who he doesn’t care at all about.

10VG just seemed like a dynamic and interesting character in the brief time we had with him. (He was the orange sphinx-ish Angel with the floating-ring-head)

He seems like someone from 82WC’s past to mirror Oscar from Cio’s.

On the new page, not much to say except that the self exceptance is refreshing.

[Hamsandlich]

New Offering A Second Training Montage, somewhat more formulaic this time

[Hamsandlich]

New Offering Wherein Lies are Told

[lord_khaine]

Yes.. lies are told indeed.. or at least shown.
Though if nothing else. Its at least interesting to finally hear a bit more about the arts.

[Onyavar]

Yes.. lies are told indeed.. or at least shown.
Though if nothing else. Its at least interesting to finally hear a bit more about the arts.

I remembered there was once a wiki page about the Art. I am delighted to see that in December 2017, it was vastly improved. Though, much of it remains speculative and now we're learning with a master (of the red art at least). Allison seems to already know pretty much about the white art, though, if only by instinct.

But as instructive as a full lesson from Cio might be, it could also turn boring. Wait, what am I talking about, Cio is the last one to get boring. I wonder though, what was she teaching Allison in the last year that they only now have arrived at "101 Introduction into the Red Art".

[Hamsandlich]

Though, much of it remains speculative and now we're learning with a master (of the red art at least). Allison seems to already know pretty much about the white art, though, if only by instinct.

Well, The Art(of Lying to the Face of God), i.e. Sorcery, has been stated to be explicitly verbal, essentially telling a lie so believable that you fool the universe into making it so (which is why normal Angels, who can lie but not very well, suck at it). What Allison has been doing mostly up until this point is "martial arts bull****"(in Abbadon's own words) and Division/Cutting(which is also what Maya and 6 Juggernaut practice), the effects of which can be somewhat replicated with sorcery. WOG is that The Art is like cheating, you can get pretty far with it, but its still not the same as actually learning other esoteric disciplines.

[Eldan]

Pretty sure what Alison did with the demon tree was Black Art, despite the white light show.

[PraetorDragoon]

Always interesting to read more about magic or equilavents.

[lord_khaine]

Pretty sure what Alison did with the demon tree was Black Art, despite the white light show.

According to the wiki, The Black Art is the art of creation, of making something out of nothing.
It has no known wielders, so i suspect its more likely a White art she used.

[Onyavar]

According to the wiki, [...]
It has no known wielders [...].

I read that part as "the wielders of the Black Art haven't been explicitly revealed in-comic yet." Or am I missing a source quote where Abaddon says that in-universe, nobody knows black artists?

The demiurges were called "black emperors" and "black kings". And the same demiurges are also considered mighty sorcerors, each. So... question mark?

We haven't seen anyone practice black magic, yet, but I keep wondering if the "create sth. from nothing" angle of the black art is related to initially shape the hot black flame and name it "devils". (Or humans?)
Once created like this, it can replicate itself? And lead to chaos and destruction?

Because really, the cases are rare in fantasy where "black magic" means something creative and entirely benevolent. From the use of black in this comic (hey, look at himself!) I deduce it is not one of these rare cases.

[Hamsandlich]

According to the wiki, The Black Art is the art of creation, of making something out of nothing.
It has no known wielders, so i suspect its more likely a White art she used.

She didn't use The Art at all, no words = no spell, what she did was channel the power of the Key to make her Will manifest as Zoss' Blade of Want. If anything she used The Art of Cutting(which has the same effect but different mechanism as the White Art) the same way Maya and 6 Juggernaut Star do, sublimating her Self to the Act so perfectly so as to make her will manifest.

[Smurfton]

Consider that Allison is using the Red Art on air. Creation and destruction Arts both need to be something more than just creation or destruction, otherwise nobody would bother studying them. In most cases, turning air into something may as well be creation, and turning something into air may as well be destruction.

[lord_khaine]

We haven't seen anyone practice black magic, yet, but I keep wondering if the "create sth. from nothing" angle of the black art is related to initially shape the hot black flame and name it "devils". (Or humans?)
Once created like this, it can replicate itself? And lead to chaos and destruction?

It seems like its creating the same way a flame does. By comsuming something else.
The example the Wiki gave were of the gods creating throne from nothing.

Its also why i think the Black, in Black Emperors, should just be taken as evil/dark/wicked ect.

But black magic meanwhile, has been described as the art of creating something from nothing, creating life, altering souls.
I dont see any reason to contest the wiki on this, just because black magic blows stuff up in other media.
Partly because its the Black Goddess Yis who is the goddess of substance.