Master Spellthief Confusion

[Merlin the Tuna]

Split from "It's over level 30!!!", in which Fax and I bicker about Master Spellthief. As Fax is very visible in the community, I expect his thoughts are widespread and that this accordingly involves more than just the two of us. Time to get everyone up to speed.

The Issue: What classes advance the use of the Spellthief's (CAdv) Steal Spell ability when it is combined with the Master Spellthief (CSco) feat?
Fax's Idea: Classes like the Wizard and Duskblade, as well as PrCs that advance the spellcasting of said classes.
Merlin's Idea: Only classes with printed progressions, such as the Wizard and Duskblade.

Spellthief 1/Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Ur-Priest 3/Mystic Theurge 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10.

Use Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, and Knight Phantom to increase Wizard spellcasting. You'll end up with the ability to cast 9th level divine spells and 9th level arcane spells, with the added benefit of being able to cast any of them in light armor with no ASF. Further, you can steal spells from slots above 9th (up to 18th level slots, actually), channel any spell you know into a full-attack (including those you steal and your divine spells), and have epic casting, with your Wizard caster level of 23--actually, of 27, considering AbCham's fifth level ability sets your caster level equal to your BAB.

Required feats: Master Spellthief stacks your Steal Spell ability with your arcane caster levels--of which you have 36. Prerequisite feats. Other than that, have fun.

Point One:There is a fundamental difference between caster level and levels in a spellcasting class. We can agree on this. An ioun stone of the proper color will boost the former but not the latter. I'd be willing to bet we all agree on this.

Point Two: The text of the Master Spellthief (below) refers to stacking the levels of arcane spellcasting class (aside from the Spellthief) with Spellthief levels for the purposes of Steal Spell. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.

Point Three: The text of the Archmage's Spells Per Day/Spells Known (below) refers to advancing the level of spells per day or spells known of an arcane spellcasting class. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.

Point Four: PrCs that advance spellcasting (such as the Eldritch Knight, Archmage, or Knight Phantom) cannot apply their Spells per Day/Spells Known to other classes that provide the same benefit, as this would lead to situations such as the Archmage advancing Mystic Theurge casting, which we know to not be permitted. Because that would be silly.

Conclusion One: Based on Points 3 and 4, even though classes such as the Archmage involve, are themed around the use of, and advance arcane spellcasting, they are not "arcane spellcasting classes" by the rules. "Arcane Spellcasting Classes" include base classes such as the Wizard or Sorcerer, as well as prestige classes such as the Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach, which have written progressions for their spellcasting abilities.

Conclusion Two: As Points 2 and 3 use the same language ("arcane spellcasting classes"), Conclusion One applies to Master Spellthief as well. Ergo, classes that provide advancements to existing spellcasting do not advance Master Spellthief.

Conclusion Three: As a result of Conclusion Two, the only classes in your example build that affect Master Spellthief are Spellthief, Duskblade, and Wizard, for a final effective level of 15, allowing the character to steal spells of up to 7th level.

**********

If anyone can provide any evidence to the contrary, by all means bring it forward.

[Jasdoif]

I don't see your fourth point pertaining to the situation here. A more appropriate scenario would be asking whether you could qualify for Archmage's spellcasting prereqs if your Wizard progression was advanced by Eldritch Knight levels. The answer to that one is "yes", I believe.


Anyway, while I can how you arrived at your final conclusion, I feel the feat in question is particularly poorly worded.

As for me, I believe that those levels of a PrC that specifically state they improve the casting progression of an arcane casting class would count as "granting arcane spellcasting".

[tainsouvra]

Point Four: PrCs that advance spellcasting (such as the Eldritch Knight, Archmage, or Knight Phantom) cannot apply their Spells per Day/Spells Known to other classes that provide the same benefit, as this would lead to situations such as the Archmage advancing Mystic Theurge casting, which we know to not be permitted. Because that would be silly.

While what you are stating is certainly what a reasonable DM would rule, is it actually printed in the Archmage description at any point? If not, your use of Point Four turns your argument from "the rules say" to "I think a DM should say", which is wholly different when used to extrapolate other rules from it. When it comes down to what a DM should say, rather than a direct quote from the rules, it becomes a case-by-case basis.

If that actually is spelled out in the rules, then you have a point from a strict wording perspective, but as a DM I would almost certainly rule the way Fax has interpreted it, as I believe that fits the spirit of the class ability without being overpowered. If it's not spelled out, then while you do have a basis for your opinion, it's not necessarily correct.

[Fax Celestis]

Rather than go point-counterpoint, I will instead present my case, so that we have a basis for the discussion.
[hr]
Point One There is a fundamental difference between caster level and levels in a spellcasting class. We can agree on this. An ioun stone of the proper color will boost the former but not the latter.

Point Two The text of the Master Spellthief (as Merlin quoted) refers to stacking the levels of arcane spellcasting class (aside from the Spellthief) with Spellthief levels for the purposes of Steal Spell. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.

Point Three The text of the Archmage's Spells Per Day/Spells Known (as Merlin posted) refers to advancing the level of spells per day or spells known of an arcane spellcasting class. This is independent of caster level, as mentioned in Point One.

Up to this point we agree.

Point Four Regardless of the fact that prestige classes do not grant spellcasting, they do effectively increase their spellcasting and thereby grant arcane spellcasting as the Master Spellthief feat requires. The key wording here is the "as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level" phrase in the Archmage's ability description.

Conclusion One Based on Point Four, any class that has the "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" class feature grants arcane spellcasting.

Conclusion Two Based on Conclusion One, in conjunction with Point Two, means that "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" is considered to progress the Steal Spell ability when one has the Master Spellthief feat.

Conclusion Three As a result of Conclusion Two, the example build is able to steal spells of up to 18th level.

[Karsh]

I agree with Fax on this one. If it advances spellcasting, it's a spellcasting class.

I see the reasoning you're using to try and justify point four, but as a counterpoint:

Point Five

In Complete Arcane's delineation of the several different types of Prestige Classes, those which grant advancement of previous spellcasting abilities are described as "Full Spellcasting." This would imply that Prestige Classes which grant spellcasting advancement are in fact spellcasting classes. This is supported by Complete Divine's outright acknowledgment of classes which grant arcane progression such as the Rainbow Servant as "Arcane Spellcasting" prestige classes.

[Person_Man]

Well, this one could easily go either way.

I think Fax is correct when he states that you have to look at the specific wording of the PrC. Most of them state that you gain caster ability "as if he had also gained a level" of the class. A Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5 is essentially a 10th level Wizard for everything relating to spellcasting. Thus a Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5 with Master Spellthief would count as an 11th level Spellthief for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.

However, most other hybrid feats (Daring Outlaw, Ascetic Hunter, Swift Ambusher) only effect two specific base classes. It seems to me as if Master Spellthief was only meant to apply to base classes that grant spellcasting, not classes that progress the spellcasting of some other base class. But unfortunately, that's not what it says.

When all is said and done, this is another example of poorly written RAW. I would allow Fax's version of the rules in my group. If I were playing Merlin's group and he denied me the ability to stack Master Spellthief with a decent PrC, I wouldn't complain, but I probably wouldn't play a Spellthief build.

[Kaelik]

As to Point Four of Merlin's I would say. The thing preventing Archmage from applying to Mystic Theurge is in fact that Archmage says "Arcane." One could also argue that since MT does not progress past level 10. Adding another level to it is absolutely useless after that point since after ten levels it lacks spellcasting progression. But that should never come up because there aren't any classes that I know of (Maybe the racial paragons?) the progress spellcasting without specifying arcane/divine. And to advance MT they would have to say they advance Arcane/Divine Hybrid spellcasting.

[Chronos]

But that should never come up because there aren't any classes that I know of (Maybe the racial paragons?) the progress spellcasting without specifying arcane/divine.

Arcane Trickster, Loremaster, and Thaumaturge all progress spellcasting without specifying arcane or divine.