Travels amongst the Border Princes (WFRP 2e) OOC

[dojango]

After suffering through last week, I don't think the villagers would be happy about setting their lands on fire. Because once you start it, it's awful hard to control it...

A large body of men will naturally make a trail as they travel, it will just take them longer to get there than it took you.

[Haval]

I probably shouldn't have Gabriele advocate that anyway.

There's no established trails but they're presumably coming here by the direct route. It might be at best an educated guess to trap certain approaches though.

[dojango]

I would say that survival or navigation would let you guess likely approaches and to trap them. It would take two days to do some basic traps yourself, but if you get a group of laborers you could make some more involved and deadly traps.

[rax]

Do punji sticks count as complicated? They're basically just one or more sharpened stakes in a small, concealed pit that are meant to go through the foot of whoever steps onto them. I could see some sort of heftier deadfall or pit trap on the main trails/approaches being useful as one-offs, but their main function would be to get the bandits to go off the trail and into areas filled with punji sticks on either side. Of course, digging a bunch of those into the trails would probably do the same, plus slow down the bandits' advance.

[dojango]

Well, like I say, minor traps that are more to harass & annoy are pretty easy. But more lethal ones will take some time. Simple sharp stakes that will injure are easy enough, but digging a deep pit and putting spikes in it will take more effort.

[Haval]

I am honestly ok with messing up people's feet. Assuming we can get something that's sharp enough to pierce a boot. Can't fight as well with a limp.

[dojango]

OK then roll survival to figure out the most likely places to place traps and how well they're hidden and you can take a few days to set up a bunch of traps.

[rax]

@Haval
There's wood all around. All we need is to cut some stakes - small ones. Obviously we're going for a bunch of small pit traps with one or a handful of sticks in them, but the picture below shows the size of stick we need:



For setup we want to put some well hidden ones on the approaches we think the enemy will use, but also some obvious ones (or some other traps that the enemy can easily "discover"). After stepping in some of the well hidden ones, they should be paranoid enough to be really relieved when they avoid the obvious ones. That should make them circle around the obvious ones...and that's when they find out we seeded the area on either side with properly hidden punji stick traps. Overall, the objective is to put as many of them out of commission as possible, but also to slow their approach and let our scouts withdraw safely to warn the village.

Testing Outdoor Survival vs. Int 39 (1d100)[76]

FP re-roll if needed (1d100)[58]

Edit: I guess we won't be relying on Severin's keen eye in this case...

[Haval]

In that case, Outdoor Survival vs. Int 38
(1d100)[1]

Finally some good news

[rax]

Nice!

Next up - actually deciding what to do in the village and with the villagers...

[Haval]

Nice!

Next up - actually deciding what to do in the village and with the villagers...

I think we need to work out what to prioritise. Presumably the defences above anything else if we need to choose.

[rax]

Alyssa speaks up quickly. "They repaired most of the gaps in the stockade. I've been reading about this stuff. Let me have enough help. Forty men should do it and clear out the ditches and build some towers. Maybe make an abatis to slow them down."

Nafisse says, "Sure, sure, but we're gonna need arrows. Lots of them. They ain't going to be so nice as to let us collect them in the middle of the battle. We need to be making arrows like there ain't no tomorrow. Cause there might not be if we don't. Twenty men to gather the materials and then have the rest at the archery butts all day. The kids can gather sling stones for those who want to use them."

Sir Florian laughs and says, "Are you sure you're a knight? We need more men with spears. Those don't run out. The blacksmith here can make a hundred spears with enough help, and we can fashion shields out of wood. Probably will take about forty men to do it. And we'll train the men in a shield wall in no time."

Morillo says, "A weapon is only as useful as the hand that holds it. We should have everyone drilling as much as possible instead of puttering around crafting. Each week of drill will make a man's strength and skill improve a notch, up to a point."

Finally the blacksmith says, softly, "I ain't got much in the way of bar stock. Can make a hunnerd spearpoints, sure, or three hunnerd arrowheads. But the young missus says she'll need some forgin' for her plans," he indicates Alyssa. "I'll do what I can."

Moving the alternatives over from the IC thread to ease discussion.

Finishing up repairing the palisade is definitely my priority. dojango indicated that clearing the ditch would take quite some time, so between that and building some towers to provide firing platforms and improve LOS I vote for towers. Preferably at least one at the gate and perhaps one or two more to cover other areas of the palisade. They don't have to be fancy - essentially just raised platforms with some plank walls to provide cover.

Even without clearing the ditch, constructing an abatis to make it harder to approach the palisade is a good idea. It will probably require sending parties into the woods to cut down some trees of find sufficient deadwood.

I'd still like a shooting platform to go the length of the palisade, but I assume that's going to take longer than putting up a couple of towers. The more construction we do, the less time we'll also have to train our militia.

I interpret Morillo as telling us that for each week of training, we can improve WS, BS or S by one step each. At the same time, training the militia to work together and follow orders is also important. Since the average halfling has better BS than a human, I'm still inclined to suggest that they make up the lion's share of our archers/slingers and that we dispense with improving their characteristics. Of course, it would be nice to get that confirmed, so maybe set up a quick shooting contest to take stock of our recruits? Unless dojango just wants to confirm my prejudices...

I think we should ask for volunteers to serve as our infantry (humans first, but let's not turn away any crazed halflings that would consider going toe to toe with the enemy). They should get both some training in working together - as a shield wall or just a spear phalanx - but also train to improve WS and S if we can manage that. That would prevent those recruits from doing anything else, though.

As for actual weapons, the villagers already had 20 swords and 40 spears. I don't think we need a hundred spears, just enough to arm however big an infantry arm we have the time and volunteers to create (everyone else will have to make do with whatever weapons they have at hand - daggers, cudgels and quarterstaffs should be plentiful). Getting them all shields would be nice if it can be done faster and with fewer resources than indicated above. An alternative is to skip the shields and go for barricades in the village to give us strong points to fight from. That's less flexible though.

In any case, we'll need sufficient arrows and sling stones to get a decent number of reloads for our missile infantry. There's no reason to assume our militia will be able to get off more than one shot per round, which would mean six arrows is enough for one minute of continuous fire. Thirty arrows each is enough for five minutes of continuous fire. dojango, how many arrows/sling stones can we expect our villagers to have available before crafting?

We'll also need to plan for what happens if or when the palisade is breached. Do we want to make the inn our fallback position and strengthen it somehow? Making war wagons is probably asking a bit much given the time constraints but strategically placing some carts where they can quickly be wheeled out to make choke points or block passage is probably doable. We should also organise the noncombatants to work as medics, ammo carriers and a fire brigade as well.

[Haval]

So, for the palisade at minimum something to make it easy to shoot over the walls and something more elaborate if we have time. If we do manage to do that maybe we only put up a platform in a couple of places where ever we think it's easiest for them to attack us. I think we can make an educated guess on that based on the terrain.

Ideally we can fine some more infantry then the seven of us, but I think we're at least equipped for it. I assume if we win, we win based on the defences and shooting anyway, but we'll need something to keep them off everyone else once they get inside the walls.

Agreed on the shooting contest. If we find anyone who is actually a good shot we can at least make sure they're properly equipped.

If the Inn is the strongest building it would make sense to fall back there. And it would make narrative sense to fall back to the apple tree frankly. I assume it's not something that can be easily burnt down? How easy would it be to shoot from the roof or upper story windows? Anything to make it harder for them to come at us from multiple directions at once would be the main thing.

If it does go that badly for us and we are pushed back to the Inn I think the question is how disciplined are the raiders given what we know about them. Are some of them likely to be focused on looting rather then trying to kill us? This wouldn't be ideal for the villagers but it might take the pressure off a little. Obviously anyone whose really into Khorne will stick with trying to kill us. This would also be really bad for anyone caught on their own, so I suppose another question is that can we get everyone into the Inn if we have to?

[dojango]

The base stat line for NPCs is 25, but as you say halflings do get a bonus for BS and a malus for WS. As far as arrows go, keep in mind most places aren't stocked up for war, the census reports 300 arrows in the village. Stones, of course, are free, but maybe 100 lead shot for slings.

The inn isn't big enough for everyone, but presumably by the time you fall back there it won't be an issue? Maybe a hundred people can fit in there. Keep in mind that you've got about 100 non-combatants (children and the very old).

[rax]

Busy day today, no time to post. I'll edit in my thoughts tomorrow.

Edit (stuff)
Okay, so a few basics to keep things straight in my head. Please correct any misunderstandings on my part.

1. We have 200 able bodied labourers and therefore potential fighters, but half of them will be working the fields so 100 is the maximum number we can use to build stuff or train for combat. The village also has 100 non-combatants (old people and kids). Of the 200 able bodied villagers, 140 are halflings and 60 are human.

2. We have two weeks in which to build and train if our suspicion is true that Colten will run out of food then and move on the village. That means we should concentrate our efforts on the "must have" work to complete it in two weeks, then have a short list of bonus jobs that can be done in week three if it turns out we have that time after all.

3. We currently have 40 spears and 20 swords available, as well as 300 arrows and 100 lead shot for slings. Sling rocks are free.
According to the Old World Armoury, a simple club counts as a hand weapon, though it's suggested they count as Poor craftsmanship (-5 WS). These should be easy to equip as many fighters as we want with. I also assume pretty much everyone could scrounge up a dagger or a quarterstaff. The do less damage than a hand weapon, but a quarterstaff is nice for defending.

4. In order to finish repairing the palisade, build some towers, clear the ditch and maybe build and abatis, Alyssa needs 40 labourers.
In order to gather materials for arrows and ammunition for slings, Nafisse needs 20 labourers.
In order to gather materials to make shields (how many?) and 100 spears, Florian needs 40 labourers.
The blacksmith can make 300 arrows or 100 spears, and still manage some metalwork to help with Alyssa's palisade project.

5. The enemy has 80-100 men under arms, though we've killed 5 of them in the last couple of days. Gabriele's traps should take out some more if they come through the woods as we believe they will.
Colten's veterans can be assumed to be the toughest, meanest bunch, with the best morale and a will to get stuck into hand-to-hand combat.
Otto's henchmen are probably slightly less tenacious and more interested in loot than fighting to the last man. OTOH, the mention of the "Wild Hunt" does make me suspicious that they could be devolving into Chaos-worship as well.
The mercenaries/greenhorns are likely to be used to soak casualties and it's a pretty safe bet that they'll have the worst morale of the bunch. If we can break them early, that's about a third of Colten's forces gone in one fell swoop.
In any case, it's a fair bet that we'll outnumber the bandits at least 2 to 1 right off the bat, and even more so if we can whittle them down with missile fire.

Planning/Goals
When it comes to actual fighting, we'll always be inferior in hand-to-hand combat, so our first goal is to keep the bandits outside the palisade for as long as possible while our defenders pelt them with slings and arrows, then drop rocks on them when they get right up to the palisade.
We need to bring our superior numbers to bear. That means enabling as many of our villagers to shoot at the enemy as possible.
Once we get stuck in melee, we again need to bring our superior numbers to bear. Any time three villagers can attack one bandit, they get +20 to hit.

Conclusions: The palisade is our absolute priority. We need to make it as strong and defensible as we can because it's what's going to let us fight on our terms as long as possible.
Our priorities should be, in order:
- Repair previous damage
- Build towers/spotting platforms
- Construct an abatis to prevent the enemy from closing easily
- Clearing out the ditch is a bonus job

We have 60 proper melee weapons already. We shouldn't bother making any more, but instead focus on making as many arrows and collecting as many sling stones as possible. Nothing has been said about bows or slings being limited in number, so I assume that the villagers can effectively arm as many people as we want with these weapons.
- If the smith can make 300 arrows, we can arm 50 archers with 12 arrows each (since we already have 300). We won't be able to make like Agincourt and volley fire like there's no tomorrow, but it gives some endurance.
- There's no difference between rocks and lead shot in the rules, so if we can arm another 50 slingers with at least 12 shot/rocks each, we'll have 100 missile troops ready and armed when Colten shows up.

To make the best use of the 60 melee weapons, we should find the 60 toughest/bravest villagers and turn the weapons over to them. If we can't get 60 people to volunteer as infantry, so be it - we'll just take as many as we can.
- If possible, we should try and get 60 shields made for our infantry, since shields are serious boon in melee (free parry at +10!).

If it's possible to arm 100 missile troops and 60 infantry, we'll have 40 more able-bodied villagers that will be able to serve as a fire brigade, arrow collectors, sentinels, barricade builders and last ditch reserve.

In terms of training, we should spend most time on the infantry. If we can boost the missile troops' BS that would be nice, but teaching them to fire on command is probably more important. (If we can actually manage 100 missile troops, we won't be able to train all of them anyway, since nearly half of them will have been working in the paddies the whole time.)

@dojango
Are the estimates for how many labourers are needed for various tasks based on managing their tasks in a span of two or three weeks?
Could we get things done faster if we throw all available hands at repairing and improving the palisade in week 1, then focus on making weapons and training our troops in week 2? E.g. 80 men work on the palisade/towers/abatis in week 1, 20 men gather materials for weapons and shields. Week 2, the smith works overtime on making arrows and shields, and we train the militia. If we get a week 3, we train some more, keep improving our defences, and maybe stock some more arrows and sling stones if possible.

How many labourers do we need to help Gabriele and Severin set their traps and do we need to use labourers as lookouts to spot the enemy? I figure we'll need some in the paddies, som in the woods, and maybe someone watching the lake as well.

[Haval]

So we need some sort of shooting competition and some way of judging who might be suitable to give the weapons to.

Whittling them down is the best way to go really. The only thing I would add to all that is morale. Outnumbering them is something, but if some of the villagers aren't experienced enough I'd be worried about them panicking if things start to go badly. I suspect it might be a matter of killing the most dangerous looking raiders first whenever possible. It would also mean Gabriele would need to fight in melee if only to tank them when necessary.

[dojango]

One "work task" takes one "work unit" one week. So building towers takes 20 men 1 week. Spreading punji traps along the approaches same. Drilling one "work unit" one week will get you an improvement in that unit's stats. The 5 worker units who are stuck harvesting are going to have poor stats, naturally.

[rax]

So would something like this work?

Week 1
1 unit continues repairing the palisade (or is that actually finished? If so, then the unit begins training as archers or infantry)
1 unit builds towers
1 unit builds an abatis
1 unit collects materials for arrows and shields (or is that two tasks?)
1 unit plants punji sticks

Village kids collect sling stones?
Village smith does whatever smithing is required to help with the palisade

Week 2
If 1 unit was trained as archers/infantry in Week 1, they now get to works as scouts/sentinels for the week
Remaining 4 units train as infantry or archers (could a shooting challenge serve as part of the training? If not, our fallback should be to just ask the village leaders who the best archers are and who the real stinkers are)

Village smith makes arrows and shields.
Village kids continue to collect sling stones.

Week 3
1 unit clears out ditch if possible
1 unit works as scouts/sentinels
3 units continue militia training

[dojango]

The palisade is repaired, as in there aren't any more holes in it you can climb through and braced where it needs to be. Now it's just a matter of adding extra stuff.

So:
1 unit builds towers
1 unit builds an abatis
1 unit collects materials for arrows and shields (or is that two tasks?)
1 unit plants punji sticks
1 unit = free

week 2
???

Week 3
???

[rax]

The palisade is repaired, as in there aren't any more holes in it you can climb through and braced where it needs to be. Now it's just a matter of adding extra stuff.

So:
1 unit builds towers
1 unit builds an abatis
1 unit collects materials for arrows and shields (or is that two tasks?)
1 unit plants punji sticks
1 unit = free

week 2
???

Week 3
???

Let's get the last unit in training as infantry during week 1.

Week 2
2 units train as infantry
2 units train as archers/slingers
1 unit gets scouting duty (the unit that trained in week 1)

Week 3
3 units continue training as infantry
1 archer unit clears the ditch
1 archer unit gets scouting duty

I figure village kids and people working in the fields can also set up a basic watch system to keep an eye out for the bandits if they come that way?

@Haval
Any problems with the suggestions above? I suppose we could try fortifying the inn in week 3 rather than clearing the ditch if you think that'll be more useful.

[Haval]

@Haval
Any problems with the suggestions above? I suppose we could try fortifying the inn in week 3 rather than clearing the ditch if you think that'll be more useful.

Just trying to think what we'd need to do for that. Part of it would be to make sure everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing.

So, make sure any windows and possibly the roof are occupied by missile troops. If possible make sure the approach to the main doors is covered so we can hopefully continue whittling them down before they manage to get in. Board up some of the ground floor doors and windows so there are less places that need defending. Maybe boards with pointed up nails on them just inside the windows (I can't find the movie clip I had in mind to to illustrate this ) How feasible is using boiling cooking fat as a siege weapon?

I don't know how long it would take. Maybe redirect some people to boarding up windows in the last few days.

If we're relying on villagers as an early warning system, we probably should make sure any mysterious disappearances get reported immediately.

[dojango]

The villagers in the fields will keep an eye out naturally, but only in the areas around the fields. The guys planting punji sticks can also keep an eye out where they're working as well. And what would your characters like to do during this time?

[rax]

I think Severin will probably be pitching in wherever his help is needed most. That's probably scouting, perhaps also helping with some of the construction and training. I imagine there'll be some planning/strategy sessions as well, to decide stuff like who's in command, make plans for if the palisade is breached, and such.

We also discussed checking to see if we could get help from the halflings across the river. That avenue remains to be explored - perhaps Brice knows some good people over there that could hit the bandits in the rear once battle is joined or raid their supplies/baggage train if they bring it along for the attack.

[dojango]

If you recall, Brice came here fleeing the halflings on the other side of the river, which everyone in the bandit camp thinks have signed up with Sol. If you want to go see if they will help you, that's always an option, but Brice absolutely won't go.

[Haval]

Gabriele will be oversee planting punji sticks and working out who the best shot is. She'll also be continuing her own training with Murillo and the rest of the infantry as she'll need to be better at that then she is now.

[rax]

If you recall, Brice came here fleeing the halflings on the other side of the river, which everyone in the bandit camp thinks have signed up with Sol. If you want to go see if they will help you, that's always an option, but Brice absolutely won't go.

I was actually a bit confused about that. I'd understood the situation to be that one or more halfling families across the river had recruited help from Sol to get even with Brice's lot. Not that all the families over there were actually aligned with Sol. I did get that Brice was none too keen on going over the river again, so I wasn't expecting him to tag along (just hoping ).

[dojango]

If it wasn't entirely clear what had happened, it's because they were all being deliberately evasive about what had happened.

[rax]

Darned unreliable narrators!

Going by the map, isn't the territory across the river officially part of the Duke's domain? I.e. are the halflings there now technically in revolt against his rule with Solomon Tollares having made an unannounced land grab?

[dojango]

That's certainly what someone allied to the Duke would say!

[Haval]

That's certainly what someone allied to the Duke would say!

I assume there's a lot of places in the Border Princes that are only nominally ruled by the local Prince. If we talk to them they won't necessarily help but it's at least polite to pass on the news. You would imagine Colten would be raiding them next.