OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

[Nomen]

We do know there are ways for an existing pantheon to help someone enter that pantheon, but that does not help the color problem.

But once Elan has slaughtered his millionth victim in Banjo's name, this theory will start to look pretty solid.

How many left to go? Shall we start a countdown?

Actually I think that the god of slapping people with sticks has a better chance.

[Personification]

No, the Arkenstone is not one of the Silmarils.

Thank you, I had been pretty sure, which is why the original reference had confused me.

[LadyEowyn]

Actually I think that the god of slapping people with sticks has a better chance.

I would agree. Banjo just has Elan; Giggles has an orc-island of followers, which might be at least enough for demigod status.

[woweedd]

I would agree. Banjo just has Elan; Giggles has an orc-island of followers, which might be at least enough for demigod status.

Actually, since Giggles and Banjo are personal rivals, they are, by definition, of equal power. LAOS, I doubt it. He'd need, like, a small nation for demigod, at least.

[Rrmcklin]

I would agree. Banjo just has Elan; Giggles has an orc-island of followers, which might be at least enough for demigod status.

We don't even know how many orcs were on that island. If becoming a god were that easy you'd think there would be way more of them than there are.

[Dion]

We don't even know how many orcs were on that island. If becoming a god were that easy you'd think there would be way more of them than there are.

Well, you’d think there would be way more of them than we’ve seen in the strip, anyhow.

But maybe they’re not all in the strip.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's actually a level below demigod: quasideity (Divine Rank 0). Giggles might eventually end up there with a few more centuries of Worship and Belief, possibly dragging his 'brother' along for the ride.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, the overlooked facts:

When Banjo is revealed, he has an Orange Aura, a unique quiddity.

When Giggles is revealed, he has a Purple Aura, the same Quiddity as the Dark One... (Not So) Coincidentally both Giggles and the Dark One are Worshipped by Goblinoids.

This is evidence of Banjo and Giggles secret divinity, and presents the 4th and 5th Colors needed to tame the Snarl.

[Malphegor]

I like how you think.

The ideal answer is something that is genuinely associated with Dwarves, but does not exist in 3e. Like something in 1e or oD&D or a literary source like LotR.

Wait, weren't dwarves a player character class? it was AD&D onwards that had them as a race.

I'm not sure what this actually would mean or how it'd be useful in character, but hey.

Maybe it's possible that dwarves are really some powerful race with a genetic level at birth in Dwarf in OOTS, and it turns out everyone's one level higher than they thought?

Not sure if that'd help, really.

[factotum]

Wait, weren't dwarves a player character class? it was AD&D onwards that had them as a race.

In the Basic D&D set from the late 70s dwarves, elves and halflings were all effectively different character classes and there was no concept of race. I don't know if that was also the case in the very first D&D sets, though, or if it was a simplification introduced to make Basic easier to play.

[Doug Lampert]

In the Basic D&D set from the late 70s dwarves, elves and halflings were all effectively different character classes and there was no concept of race. I don't know if that was also the case in the very first D&D sets, though, or if it was a simplification introduced to make Basic easier to play.

Original game had races and classes as separate things. You could be an Elf Magic User, or a Dwarf Fighting Man, or whatever. I do not even recall any racial restrictions on class choices (although some of the later introduced classes had them, edited to add: my memory says Paladins had to be Human and they were introduced at the same time as the Thief class so it was fairly early in development).

[Keltest]

Honestly, I very much it is a weapon at all. Durkon's strength has never been in the field of battle. If he is to replace his weapon set at all, I'd think some kind of family heirloom would be far more appropriate anyway. But we'll see.

Grey Wolf

Wasn't his weapon already a family heirloom?

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay, the overlooked facts:

When Banjo is revealed, he has an Orange Aura, a unique quiddity.

When Giggles is revealed, he has a Purple Aura, the same Quiddity as the Dark One... (Not So) Coincidentally both Giggles and the Dark One are Worshipped by Goblinoids.

This is evidence of Banjo and Giggles secret divinity, and presents the 4th and 5th Colors needed to tame the Snarl.

Don't let Tolkien confuse you. Orcs are not goblinoids in D&D 3.5. They do not have the (goblinoids) subtype.

[Grey Watcher]

Okay, the overlooked facts:

When Banjo is revealed, he has an Orange Aura, a unique quiddity.

When Giggles is revealed, he has a Purple Aura, the same Quiddity as the Dark One... (Not So) Coincidentally both Giggles and the Dark One are Worshipped by Goblinoids.

This is evidence of Banjo and Giggles secret divinity, and presents the 4th and 5th Colors needed to tame the Snarl.

I don't think the background colors on Banjo's and Giggles's reveal panels are quiddative, anymore than the background for Haley's WANDS! Unless you want to revive an old debate over one of Haley's aphasiac cryptograms, "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call—" and then say the next word was going to be "mortal."

#WetBlanket

[factotum]

Original game had races and classes as separate things.

Yeah, I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it confirms that the original D&D game had separate races and classes--the whole "race as class" thing must have been distinct for the Basic set.

[Goblin_Priest]

Okay, the overlooked facts:

When Banjo is revealed, he has an Orange Aura, a unique quiddity.

When Giggles is revealed, he has a Purple Aura, the same Quiddity as the Dark One... (Not So) Coincidentally both Giggles and the Dark One are Worshipped by Goblinoids.

This is evidence of Banjo and Giggles secret divinity, and presents the 4th and 5th Colors needed to tame the Snarl.

As another said, orcs have the (orc) subtype, not the (goblinoid) subtype.

That said, orcs also got pretty shafted, as goblins were. So it'd be pretty fair of them to go on a parallel path of opposing all the creator gods, and thus entering the new purple quiddity.

[KorvinStarmast]

That sounds...truly, monumentally stupid. "Humans only" is at least comprehensible. "Now you're going to be penalized because you didn't arbitrarily decide you were playing a really tall human" is not.

It was playable, for the primary reason that the Rules Lawyer was not empowered by the rules the way they are in WoTC products like 3e D&D, and for the secondary reason that we never found it an obstacle, for a tertiary reason that DM's rarely felt bound by RAW in 1e the way that rules lawyers and 3e RAW fanatics do ... but I can understand not everyone liking the AD&D verisimilitude attempts. In a lot of ways, Basic/BECMI D&D avoided such minutae, and as such were a great way to introduce people to the game.

IIRC, in 1e there was a table to roll your height and weight (in the DMG). EGG loved RNG. And Roget's Thesaurus. And tables.
From the DMG:

Height and weight should be randomly determined for each PC, and the HEIGHT AND WEIGHT TABLES However, these tables do not actually give sufficient variation in upper limits of height and weight of humans, so you might find it necessary to allow the following height and weight variations for human player characters:
Human Male: Height-2-20”; Weight- 10-200#
Human Female: Height-2-12‘,; Weight- 10-120#

The H&W tables were on page 102.
But in the PHB we do see this ... attempts at realism ...

***Characters under 5' height cannot employ the longbow or any weapon over 12' in length. Those under 100 pounds of body weight cannot use the heavy crossbow or pole arms in excess of 200 gold piece weight equivalent, including two-handed swords.

[Snails]

No, the Arkenstone is not one of the Silmarils.

Good link!

I find the most persuasive argument against is that an actual Simaril, if encrusted by lesser gemstone to become the Arkenstone, would still be a prize that would completely eclipse the One Ring in potential power.

[Knaight]

No, the Arkenstone is not one of the Silmarils.

That's less a definitive source and more a series of arguments elsewhere, and a lot of what is being portrayed as decisive is pretty flimsy. Especially the argument that the text about there being nothing like the Arkenstone precluding a silmaril - that's not third person omniscient, it's third person hewing to Bilbo's perspective pretty closely. All that establishes is that the Arkenstone is impressive on a level far beyond anything Bilbo had seen to the point of him being in awe of it.

That's not to say that I'd consider the Arkenstone as silmaril argument particularly persuasive. The Arkenstone as portrayed just isn't on the same scale as the silmarils. It's a big, beautiful gem, yes. It's not the light of the sun or moon crafted into one of the two gems so bright and powerful that mortals can't even handle it. It's not an artifact greater than the one ring from an age of myths, entwined with at least three beings greater than Sauron (Feanor, Morgoth, Ungoliant).

Honestly, I very much it is a weapon at all. Durkon's strength has never been in the field of battle. If he is to replace his weapon set at all, I'd think some kind of family heirloom would be far more appropriate anyway. But we'll see.

For someone who's strength isn't in the field of battle Durkon is an exceptional warrior. Even beyond the raw power he throws around there's a history of clever tactics that have paid off. Control weather for the sonic boom against Leeky, keeping Malack talking to bypass his stealth (though that didn't pay off quite enough), outsmarting the vampire during a fight to give the win to his allies.

[Doug Lampert]

That's not to say that I'd consider the Arkenstone as silmaril argument particularly persuasive. The Arkenstone as portrayed just isn't on the same scale as the silmarils. It's a big, beautiful gem, yes. It's not the light of the sun or moon crafted into one of the two gems so bright and powerful that mortals can't even handle it. It's not an artifact greater than the one ring from an age of myths, entwined with at least three beings greater than Sauron (Feanor, Morgoth, Ungoliant).

I'm not at all sure Feanor is greater than Sauron, but then he's explicitly not the source of the light of the two-trees that was caught in the Silmarils, that was Yavanna with assistance from Nienna, and they were definitely both greater than Sauron.

That said, I agree with the conclusion that the provided link is not all that persuasive, but that if the Arkenstone was intended to be a silmaril then it would have been treated as far more significant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For someone who's strength isn't in the field of battle Durkon is an exceptional warrior. Even beyond the raw power he throws around there's a history of clever tactics that have paid off.

Yes, he is a protagonist in a fantasy story. They tend to be more than decent at combat. That doesn't mean that's their greatest strength. Roy is a good warrior, but a better Team Leader. Haley is a good warrior, but a better Team Face. Durkon is a good warrior, but a better Team Mom. V and Belkar are about the only ones who can be said to have combat as their best characteristic, since "being a jerk" is not the kind of thing that gets you in the ratings (but if it is, then Belkar is a better jerk than he is a fighter).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

The issue probably stems from that while The Hobbit wasn't intended to be set in ME at first, the Professor had no qualm plagiarizing himself, which is why Thranduil and his kingdom look so much like Tinwëlint* and his, in the same vein, the Necromancer was originally only Sauron-like rather than being the real deal. The Arkenstone being a point of contention between Elves and Dwarves was probably inspired by the Beren's Silmaril being one (with the Nauglamir), hence the two stones being alike.


*The first version of Elu Thingol. The similarities were explain by having Thranduil's father, Oropher be from Doriath originially.

[Particle_Man]

That "gosh, I could give you spells every day on demand, how's that?" line sounds like something a DM would say to a player of a cleric whining for loot/direct divine intervention for their next mission.

Heck, I might *use* that line myself.

[Rrmcklin]

As another said, orcs have the (orc) subtype, not the (goblinoid) subtype.

That said, orcs also got pretty shafted, as goblins were. So it'd be pretty fair of them to go on a parallel path of opposing all the creator gods, and thus entering the new purple quiddity.

How do you know that? And a "path of opposing all the creator gods" wasn't even what created the Dark One in the first place.

[AutomatedTeller]

Good comic. I feel like we are about to go back to Roy, et al. My only question is how long it takes Durkon to be resurrected? I think there's interesting stuff there - like, Hilgya's not going to want to res him - but Loki may tell her to suck it up, because end of the world.

or will she even stick around? I guess everyone is no longer dominated - she clearly wasn't, once Durkula died.

[Mandor]

It is clear to me that Banjo has hundreds of devout worshippers.
... On these forums, not in-comic.

[The MunchKING]

It is clear to me that Banjo has hundreds of devout worshippers.
... On these forums, not in-comic.

They should Earthbound it up and send all their psychic energy to him, that he may be empowered by those beyond the Comic's Gods and ascend to comic-godhood himself. :D

[factotum]

The issue probably stems from that while The Hobbit wasn't intended to be set in ME at first, the Professor had no qualm plagiarizing himself

He always had the ME legendarium as a background for all his works, I think--note that the swords Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were explicitly stated as having come from Gondolin before its fall when Elrond examines them in The Hobbit (although it's never clearly explained how those swords managed to end up in a troll cave hundreds of miles from where Beleriand used to be, or why goblins still fear them so much several thousand years after Gondolin's fall).

[Fyraltari]

He always had the ME legendarium as a background for all his works, I think--note that the swords Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were explicitly stated as having come from Gondolin before its fall when Elrond examines them in The Hobbit (although it's never clearly explained how those swords managed to end up in a troll cave hundreds of miles from where Beleriand used to be, or why goblins still fear them so much several thousand years after Gondolin's fall).

That's from the revised editions of the Hobbit, the ones that don't mention China or lampposts and where Gollum does not willingly give Bilbo his ring after losing the riddle contest*. The Hobbit really wasn't part of ME originally. He only dragged it into it when his editor insisted he wrote a sequel to the Hobbit rather than the Silmarillion.

*which is why lotr mentions several times that Bilbo wasn't honest about how he got his ring.

[dtilque]

It is clear to me that Banjo has hundreds of devout worshippers.
... On these forums, not in-comic.

The Puppet Pantheon has more gods than that one. And Banjo is so 3 years ago. Players who keep up with the times have been going with Sith Dark Lord Mandolin since September 2016 (hint: check the 2016 calendar). Oldtimers are partial to Oliver J. Dragon, a.k.a. the Ollie-saur.