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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Another point is that D&D is set in a quasi-medieval world.

    “Racist” as a word didn’t exist until the 1930s (https://www.etymonline.com/word/racist), before that “racialist” had been used from about the 1880s. The idea that it was bad to think other races were different and therefore inferior to your race only really surfaced in the 1800s.

    So in a quasi-medieval setting no one knows, let alone cares, about “racism”.

    If we go back to the classical era.
    - Everyone knew the greeks were intelligent and educated, and the Greeks thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Celts were brave individual fighters, and the Celts thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Egyptians had an ancient culture, and the Egyptians thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Germans were tough, and the Germans thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Romans were well organized, and the Romans thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Numidians were great horsemen, and the Numidians thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Illyrians were cunning, and teh Illyrians thought this made them superior to everyone else.

    and so forth. The very idea that there weren’t differences between the races and that your race wasn’t superior to everyone else was unthinkable.

    Having your characters talk about racism in game makes about as much sense as having them discuss nuclear physics or smart phones. Just because something is a well known idea in the 21st century doesn’t mean it is appropriate to send that idea into a quasi-medieval setting.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Only game I've ever seen that gets fantasy racists right is The Witcher. Why? Because it just dumps actual wizards and non-humans into a ersatz 14th century Eastern Europe. Replace any marginalized group with a specific type of character: elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, mages, whatever. Apply historically known hatred of a group of real world people from the same time period and bam instantly functional racists without being a strawman (intentionally at least). The games occasionally push things to a ludicrous level, I'm looking at The Witcher 2 in particular, but I feel that's more of a focus on Geralt having relatively modern sensibilities compared to the rest of his world. If it weren't a clearly medieval setting Geralt would fit in with Shadowrun just fine.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2018-11-20 at 09:08 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Only game I've ever seen that gets fantasy racists right is The Witcher. Why?
    Because it's based on Andrzej Sapkowski's books, and he's a genius and a well-educated man. I loved the dwarf's speech about "nothing wrong with living in a ghetto".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    At GITP, we don't just bite down on bait-hooks, we chew them thoroughly until the insides of our mouths are full of broken teeth, flesh-ribbons, and blood.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    In that situation I'd probably point out that the joke is getting old. "Haha, ok guys, the joke's getting old now." It's out of context, but if they're just having a good time making jokes, it's not a big deal. If it's annoying me, I'd just hint that it's getting lame/old and we can get on with the game. I think most of my friends would get it and we'd move on.

    In context/RP, in game? Yeah, the elves might be a tiny bit racist, so what? The lizardmen are alien to them. They're basically strangers.

    Personally, I wouldn't care so much, probably let the chips fall where they may. If they manage to kick up a riot with lizardmen through demagogic diplomacy or performance (prose), the elves will cut diplomatic discussions or at worst kill the lizardmen. From the other direction, a few lizardmen, perhaps unfamiliar with elven physiology or elven culture, kills a few fragile elven children (oops, we thought they were adults, and we didn't know how seriously you guys took child safety/welfare in your culture!). Oh well. PC's fault for being simple, lacking nuance and tact. Consequences for actions and all that jazz.

    Sure your players' modern, real-world intentions might be good, and i'm sure your fantastic elves are too, but who says Good people can't annoy the **** out of each other.
    Last edited by John05; 2018-11-21 at 11:34 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by 16bearswutIdo View Post
    What do you mean, YOU PEOPLE?

    No, but I joke. But really. Comparing pets to sentient humanoid creatures is an INTERESTING take on the situation.
    Really? Tell me, which species lived in caves and wore fur while the other was swinging naked through trees and dying of exposure? Who was the first to make it into space? Which of us picks up the other one's poop in little baggies


    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane
    Oh, wow. I can actually SEE the entire thread catching on fire right before my eyes.
    Some people have the modern "genocide is always wrong" viewpoint.

    Some people have the classical viewpoint of "genocide's the right response to enslaving us after winning a war we started, losing a war they started, or insulting our god; make sure you cut open the pregnant women and dash the babies heads against rocks so you get them all."

    A fantasy game takes all types.
    If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Having your characters talk about racism in game makes about as much sense as having them discuss nuclear physics or smart phones. Just because something is a well known idea in the 21st century doesn’t mean it is appropriate to send that idea into a quasi-medieval setting.
    Great point, Pauly.

    IIRC, I remember a historian talking about PTSD for pre-modern soldiers. They only got it when forced to kill "their own people". They felt pride for killing enemies. Roman legionnaires suffering PTSD their psychological ailment through righteous bloodshed of enemies. It's a relatively recent phenomenon that soldiers get PTSD for killing people outside their culture/nationality/"group".

    Universalist ethics and subsequent qualms vs racism was pushed into the Western spotlight by the Enlightenment and by Christianity. Ofc, perhaps our fantasy setting is post-enlightenment, but even then it tends to be the case that such PC sentiments get pushed to the side for most during times of war. You wouldn't have expected Japanese internment camps during peace times.
    Last edited by John05; 2018-11-21 at 11:51 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by John05 View Post
    IIRC, I remember a historian talking about PTSD for pre-modern soldiers. They only got it when forced to kill "their own people". They felt pride for killing enemies. Roman legionnaires suffering PTSD their psychological ailment through righteous bloodshed of enemies. It's a relatively recent phenomenon that soldiers get PTSD for killing people outside their culture/nationality/"group"..
    I've heard that a lot of modern PTSD is due to microscopic brain damage occurring from surviving artillery and other jarring battlefield explosions. Which of course fits in with the widespread 'shell shock' experienced in WWI.
    Re: 100 Things to Beware of that Every DM Should Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    93. No matter what the character sheet say, there are only 3 PC alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by John05 View Post
    Great point, Pauly.

    IIRC, I remember a historian talking about PTSD for pre-modern soldiers. They only got it when forced to kill "their own people". They felt pride for killing enemies. Roman legionnaires suffering PTSD their psychological ailment through righteous bloodshed of enemies. It's a relatively recent phenomenon that soldiers get PTSD for killing people outside their culture/nationality/"group".

    Universalist ethics and subsequent qualms vs racism was pushed into the Western spotlight by the Enlightenment and by Christianity. Ofc, perhaps our fantasy setting is post-enlightenment, but even then it tends to be the case that such PC sentiments get pushed to the side for most during times of war. You wouldn't have expected Japanese internment camps during peace times.
    PTSD seems to have developed as a major military health issue from about the American Civil War.

    One theory is that it is the constant presense of a threat that you can be randomly killed by unseen and unpredictable forces that triggers the response. In earlier periods long term veterans were often seen as the best soldiers Napoleon’s Old Guard, Frederichs Prussian Guard, Roman Centurions et al. In these eras the individual soldier’s skill at arms, and therefore their psychological belief that they controlled the situation, made a major difference in survival. The ACW is the first time you get the idea that a unit can be “too veteran”. Ceaser’s legions and Alexander’s phalanx gat rebellious because they were homesick, not because they were jaded by the horrors of war.

    My reading of universalist ethics is that it seems to have really developed strongly to provide explanation of why slavery should be morally opposed.
    Last edited by Pauly; 2018-11-21 at 07:37 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    You told a good chunk of the party that they needed to sit out of the session...

    Yeeeaaaah this had nothing to do with racism. Complaining about that was just venting I suspect.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    You told a good chunk of the party that they needed to sit out of the session...

    Yeeeaaaah this had nothing to do with racism. Complaining about that was just venting I suspect.
    This was my first thought. Although, the details in the OP are somewhat sparse, so it is possible they handled it better (e.g., by frequently switching viewpoints between the two groups of players, or by just having two different sessions with only part of the group in each).


    Anyhow, I think one of the most common issues with racism in fantasy is when people creating the fantasy have trouble separating the beliefs of characters from their own beliefs. In the example in the OP, if you decide "elves are racist against lizardfolk," then that's fine. That makes the elves villains. Or, maybe you give the elves some redeeming qualities that make them somewhat less hateable. Having ficitonal characters be racist against fictional people is not a bad thing if that is what you are in to in fiction. (I can also understand that some people may want escapist fantasy where they don't have to be reminded of real-world racism).

    But some worldbuilders go further. If you as a GM, out-of-character, say "Under the Totally Objective Alignment System, I declare that racism against lizardfolk is Objectively Good," then you've crossed a line into out-of-character statements. Now you are no longer talking about the racist views of fictional characters, but about your own racist beliefs. People are going to react to that quite differently.

    EDIT: Or, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    So long as you realize that racism IS the evil your fighting and not the tool you use to fight evil with, its okay.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2018-11-22 at 10:55 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Sounds like OP's players got mad because they were told "no" and then used racism to legitimize their tantrum afterwards.

    that being said I disagree with the other posters, allowing them to start a lizardfolk riot is the appropriate thing to do rather than outright denying them agency in the matter.

    My suggestion would be to shift the reasoning away from just "race" to something else. Some dark secret or potent magic that elves have the knowledge and resistance to, meaning that other races are kept out of Tree City for security reasons.

    If the heart of the tree gives off a powerful and deadly magic that elves are acclimated to, then you can make your players feel bad for screaming "racism!" while the elves are literally doing it for the best possible reasons.

    "Your non-elven presence would upset our awesome hometree, and peoples houses would start falling from the sky as the tree shriveled and recoiled."

    Perhaps there's a long-standing enchantment on the tree that was put into place to protect the home of the elves, and non-elves inside the secure area are psychically disrupted or otherwise burdened. The non-elfin are kept out for their own good, lest they suffer immensely from the ancient curse.
    The lizardmen are being housed and fed by a foreign entity that graciously accepted them. I see no reason to say "you get a few unhappy lizardmen, but most steer clear of your blatantly foolish words. Elven guards approach, a group of lizardmen at their back. They are here to arrest you."

    Kick them out of the city entirely and I am pretty sure they would get the picture. Myself, I'd have their gear permanently confiscated requiring the el en party members to do some serious negotiating to get the stuff back, leaving a choice piece of gear to become "misplaced" for permanent loss.

    Then again, I am far more realistic in my approach. Random guys showing up and spouting nonsense isn't going to start a riot. Just try that in the real world and see how far that gets you. Even backed by bardic magic the dc would probably be "no."

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    The lizardmen are being housed and fed by a foreign entity that graciously accepted them. I see no reason to say "you get a few unhappy lizardmen, but most steer clear of your blatantly foolish words. Elven guards approach, a group of lizardmen at their back. They are here to arrest you."

    Kick them out of the city entirely and I am pretty sure they would get the picture. Myself, I'd have their gear permanently confiscated requiring the el en party members to do some serious negotiating to get the stuff back, leaving a choice piece of gear to become "misplaced" for permanent loss.

    Then again, I am far more realistic in my approach. Random guys showing up and spouting nonsense isn't going to start a riot. Just try that in the real world and see how far that gets you. Even backed by bardic magic the dc would probably be "no."
    That is pretty much how i would handle it too.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    So, you put in a scene with extremely obvious "these people are racist" tropes, used them to exclude half the party from the meat of the session, and are now complaining that your players didn't play along?

    Like, even before adjusting for the Internet Law Of Retelllings (retellings are always spun, consciously or not, to make the person telling them look better than what actually happened) this doesn't look great, my dude.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    You have inadvertently prompted discussion about racism by using it as a core conflict in the story of your campaign, and have targeted most of your player-characters and large highly visible groups of NPCs with an overtly racist government policy which denies them access to critical resources.

    If you would rather not discuss racism with your roleplaying group, then I recommend being open with your players about your discomfort or annoyance regarding the topic, figure out why they feel the need to address racism in-game as often as they do (imo this should be obvious, but you need their input to be sure), and talk about what all of you could do to resolve their concerns (including retcons or modification to the story) and avoid further discussion of the topic.


    edit: Regarding factional distrust, there are countless ways to do it along lines other than race. One is to have factions which aren't defined primarily by race; they could be defined by region, city, culture, religion, trust in a particular ruler, desire for safety, an ideal such as belief in their form of government, and so on. You can even have factions defined by something as silly as the side on which they butter their bread (as per the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss). People could be forbidden from entering a city over concerns regarding overcrowding, cost, animosity with their home-faction, the gods' favor, or resource availability. Whether you use fictional-races or human-races, it's also fairly simple to have multiracial factions, or simply not rely upon it to define faction-identity.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2018-11-23 at 02:52 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    I thought a guy with the username "Douche" had a pretty obvious gimmick.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    I thought a guy with the username "Douche" had a pretty obvious gimmick.
    At GITP, we don't just bite down on bait-hooks, we chew them thoroughly until the insides of our mouths are full of broken teeth, flesh-ribbons, and blood.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2018-11-23 at 02:55 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Douche View Post
    Well I don’t believe that any normal common race can be always evil. Tolkien orcs come out of like a hole in the ground, they don’t have family structures or friendship. In D&D they have babies and stuff. You can’t really rationalize ‘always evil’ when a race has anything resembling human society

    Mind flayers on the other hand reproduce by spitting slugs in your ear, so genocide against them is perfectly reasonable.

    But regardless, that’s not the point of the thread. The point is that they are fixated on racism, and I don’t think justifications for racism are going to allieviate that
    I have a reformed mind flayer in my campaign. Trying to be nice, inducting people who want to into the hive mind, and spitting slugs into people's ears only when they are old and infirm and really would rather be reborn as pure mind flayers, yay.

    My PC's are surprisingly ok with him (actually, now that I think about it, it kinda has to be a she - even if mind flayers themselves should actually be genderless, right? So confusing).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    At GITP, we don't just bite down on bait-hooks, we chew them thoroughly until the insides of our mouths are full of broken teeth, flesh-ribbons, and blood.
    Can I has that as signature, please?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    At GITP, we don't just bite down on bait-hooks, we chew them thoroughly until the insides of our mouths are full of broken teeth, flesh-ribbons, and blood.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastian Weaver View Post
    Can I has that as signature, please?
    Absolutely

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    Lightbulb Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Openly mock them about how boring they must be to get triggered over something that's not real.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Another point is that D&D is set in a quasi-medieval world.

    “Racist” as a word didn’t exist until the 1930s (https://www.etymonline.com/word/racist), before that “racialist” had been used from about the 1880s. The idea that it was bad to think other races were different and therefore inferior to your race only really surfaced in the 1800s.

    So in a quasi-medieval setting no one knows, let alone cares, about “racism”.

    If we go back to the classical era.
    - Everyone knew the greeks were intelligent and educated, and the Greeks thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Celts were brave individual fighters, and the Celts thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Egyptians had an ancient culture, and the Egyptians thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Germans were tough, and the Germans thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Romans were well organized, and the Romans thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Numidians were great horsemen, and the Numidians thought this made them superior to everyone else.
    - Everyone knew the Illyrians were cunning, and teh Illyrians thought this made them superior to everyone else.

    and so forth. The very idea that there weren’t differences between the races and that your race wasn’t superior to everyone else was unthinkable.

    Having your characters talk about racism in game makes about as much sense as having them discuss nuclear physics or smart phones. Just because something is a well known idea in the 21st century doesn’t mean it is appropriate to send that idea into a quasi-medieval setting.
    I think this covers it far more eloquently than I could have. "Racism" is part of the setting, and should be embraced rather than shunned.

    Look at how the Elves and Dwarves interacted in Tolkien's world:
    ‘Now come!’ said Gandalf. `Pray do not interrupt, my good Glóin. That was a regrettable misunderstanding, long set right. If all the grievances that stand between Elves and Dwarves are to be brought up here, we may as well abandon this Council.’
    So to the cave they dragged Thorin-not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy.
    If you want more examples from entirely different settings, look at Wizards vs Muggles in the Harry Potter universe, or how Droids are treated in the Star Wars universe.

    Races, species, clans, tribes, or religions generally tend to be biased towards their own members. How they react to other groups can vary, though. Some may be more welcoming and inclusive, others may be more hostile towards non-members.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with incorporating this into a campaign setting. It is an excellent way to help provide flavor and context, as long as the players are willing to accept it for what it is; a fictional setting.

    One of my favorite games, Shadowrun, had some interesting story lines involving the anti-metahuman group "Humanis Policlub", as well as the neo-hippie metahuman rights activists that opposed them. Some might find this offensive, but I found it to provide a good source of flavor and plot hooks for the in-game universe.

    After all, who doesn't love the idea of a bunch of human and elf neo-hippie flower children standing around holding signs that say "ORKS ARE HUMANS TOO!"...

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    How funny, I point out to my players frequently that everyone they come across is racist towards anybody not of their own race. Then I use the players own racism towards orcs against them by making them help some innocent orc merchants.

    As other posters have said racism is a very modern idea.

    Personally I love setting moral quandaries for my players of one type or another.

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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    As an observation, if a plot point seems to be that the elves are racist, then I'd expect discussions of it to come up fairly often.

    Racism isn't a modern idea; it's been a thing since the founding of civilization. However, it was fairly recently that we realized that racism is bad. Fantasy in general, and D&D, has a considerable amount of for-granted racism in it's heritage, and exploring this is almost certainly acceptable for a game. However, I would certainly expect the players to notice and interact with it, and not ignore it.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2018-11-25 at 11:31 PM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    As an observation, if a plot point seems to be that the elves are racist, then I'd expect discussions of it to come up fairly often.

    Racism isn't a modern idea; it's been a thing since the founding of civilization. However, it was fairly recently that we realized that racism is bad. Fantasy in general, and D&D, has a considerable amount of for-granted racism in it's heritage, and exploring this is almost certainly acceptable for a game. However, I would certainly expect the players to notice and interact with it, and not ignore it.
    I think that racism is a modern idea. The idea of racism can only exist if there is an idea such as “egalitarianism” or “universalist ethic” and both of those ideas are modern ideas, egalitarianism starting in the 17th century and universalist ethics in the late 18th. Racism and classism are the negative expressions of the positive idea. For example the original intent of “a jury by your peers” meant lords could judge other lords, but commoners couldn’t judge them.

    Undoubtedly those sentiments had previously existed, but hadn’t been codified into an idea until relatively recently. For example Shylock’s “If you prick us, do we not bleed?” speech is basically saying “that’s racist” but Shakespeare needed a full monologue to express what we can say in 2 words.
    Also Shakespeare undercats Shylock’s speeach as sophistry by making Shylock’s true motive money not his idealized words.

    Going back to the OP. Another way of dealing with it is to allow the players to convince the Elfs to let the lizardfolk in. Then when the party is away they come back and find outbthat the lizardfolk have caused (intentionally or unintentionally) some kind of disaster. Rinse and repeat everytime the olayers try to bring claims of racism into the game, unintended consequences of noble aims have a long history of screwing things up for everybody including the people they are trying to help.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    I think that racism is a modern idea. The idea of racism can only exist if there is an idea such as “egalitarianism” or “universalist ethic” and both of those ideas are modern ideas, egalitarianism starting in the 17th century and universalist ethics in the late 18th. Racism and classism are the negative expressions of the positive idea. For example the original intent of “a jury by your peers” meant lords could judge other lords, but commoners couldn’t judge them.

    Undoubtedly those sentiments had previously existed, but hadn’t been codified into an idea until relatively recently. For example Shylock’s “If you prick us, do we not bleed?” speech is basically saying “that’s racist” but Shakespeare needed a full monologue to express what we can say in 2 words.
    Also Shakespeare undercats Shylock’s speeach as sophistry by making Shylock’s true motive money not his idealized words.

    Going back to the OP. Another way of dealing with it is to allow the players to convince the Elfs to let the lizardfolk in. Then when the party is away they come back and find outbthat the lizardfolk have caused (intentionally or unintentionally) some kind of disaster. Rinse and repeat everytime the olayers try to bring claims of racism into the game, unintended consequences of noble aims have a long history of screwing things up for everybody including the people they are trying to help.
    The idea that I'm better than you because I'm part of a specific ethno-cultural group doesn't require modern egalitarianism to exist, it requires the idea of an ethno-cultural group. And the idea that my ethno-cultural group is superior to yours has existed since the first civilizations in Mesopotamia.

    Such animosities are well documented in ancient Greece, like the etymology of "Barbarian".


    Anyway, to the GM, by choosing to include fantastic racism into your game [and by "include" I mean "make a plot point of"], you have also chosen for your game to take a stance on it. What stance you take is up to you, but consider what actions, events, consequences, and opportunities you want to include in your game carefully in light of that.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2018-11-26 at 02:20 AM.
    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    Anyway, to the GM, by choosing to include fantastic racism into your game [and by "include" I mean "make a plot point of"], you have also chosen for your game to take a stance on it.
    Now that is just not true.

    Elements included are not necessarily elements you personally make a stance on. It's possible to just explore a topic. If my games have Kingdoms, that doesn't mean I am taking a stance on representative government.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    This thread is racist.

    OP, it's diffcult to tell through text, how serious are your players being? Elves being portrayed as racist is not exactly a revelation fantasy-wise (and certainly the actions of the NPCs in your elven city support that epithet), but just because your players point it out repeatedly it doesn't mean they actually expect you to change anything, they might just be poking fun. Like, are they actually upset, or just trolling you for giggles?

    If you're asking whether you're doing anything wrong by having your elves behave that way, I'd say no, it's pretty standard for them to treat other elves better than humans. That attitude goes back to Tolkien and possibly even further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Douche View Post
    Am I being a douche here
    ...Way too easy
    Last edited by Psyren; 2018-11-26 at 10:57 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Now that is just not true.

    Elements included are not necessarily elements you personally make a stance on. It's possible to just explore a topic. If my games have Kingdoms, that doesn't mean I am taking a stance on representative government.
    The person you're replying to said that the DM's GAME is making a stance on the issue. Which it definitely is, either way. If in-universe this is treated as no big deal, then the stance the game is making in-universe is that it's no big deal.

    That being said, it still blows my mind that the OP decided to put a lizardman refugee and racist elf situation into the game and expected his PCs to just ignore it.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    You told a good chunk of the party that they needed to sit out of the session...

    Yeeeaaaah this had nothing to do with racism. Complaining about that was just venting I suspect.
    I'd argue it was good roleplaying. Their DM dropped the ball and omitted half the party from advancing the main plot, and did not provide a sidequest to keep them in the game.

    The people left out essentially have three options at this point: do nothing and just listen to the other two players play for a few hours, **** off and do something more interesting than sitting quietly in a corner while other people have fun, or make their own fun.

    They chose the latter, biting an obvious plot hook of an indigenous people being slaughtered, driven from their homeland, and treated poorly by their new host nation.

    OP comes off as an inexperienced DM that has a hard time thinking on his feet; most others don't tend to freak out and **** talk players that were good sports enough to improvise their own sub plots. Players like that are a GODSEND.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: How to make your players STFU about fictional fantasy racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'd argue it was good roleplaying. Their DM dropped the ball and omitted half the party from advancing the main plot, and did not provide a sidequest to keep them in the game.

    The people left out essentially have three options at this point: do nothing and just listen to the other two players play for a few hours, **** off and do something more interesting than sitting quietly in a corner while other people have fun, or make their own fun.

    They chose the latter, biting an obvious plot hook of an indigenous people being slaughtered, driven from their homeland, and treated poorly by their new host nation.

    OP comes off as an inexperienced DM that has a hard time thinking on his feet; most others don't tend to freak out and **** talk players that were good sports enough to improvise their own sub plots. Players like that are a GODSEND.
    I am going to disagree. Players like that are severely disruptive in context. If you want to make your own sub plot, that's one thing. But this was stupid, and I already mentioned how I'd have handled it. And the OP never mentioned it taking hours. A few minutes of diplomatic talks, a few diplomacy rolls and done is all it really needed to be. A talk to the guards by the elven party members, a couple diplomacy rolls, a provisional registration and armed guard escort for the demi-elven (because it's not demi-humans: elves were there first after all) and presto, gang is back together after about 15 to 20 minutes. Instead, "lets stupidly start a riot FOR NO GOOD REASON OTHER THAN WE'RE IMPATIENT."

    That the op handled it improperly is beside the point. This wasn't good role playing, this was bored players smacking the campaign with a stick because lulz.

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