Players feeling like there's not enough time

[Madara]

I have a bit of an unusual problem, or at least the lack of good Google results makes it seem that way-

I've created a variety of meaningful plot threads in a rather open-world setting and my high level D&D party is feeling like they *can't* have any down time or such because things will happen, which while kinda a good thing makes me feel like they're missing out.

The party wants to build a castle, but that'll take 520ish in-game days. (Which they're OKish with) but the problem is that they feel like the campaign will be over by then because the big looming war is coming or any number of still-open enemy plots might occur.

How can I help the party have time not to always be rushing from adventure to adventure?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Is the problem with their perception or with the reality? In other words, are they correct in thinking there's not enough time?

[Madara]

Is the problem with their perception or with the reality? In other words, are they correct in thinking there's not enough time?

I mean, there's some truth in that the war plot will progress, but it isn't like it'll be "game over maaaan"

Currently things would indeed happen, but the perception seems to be a little more "end of the world" instead of "the enemy will fortify their defenses"

[False God]

Does the party have to do the manual labor for building the castle themselves?

I mean, I've built a house. 4 people make a good team. 3 people can do it. 2 people can still do it. And with a lot of effort, 1 person can do it. But the larger the construction project, the more people are necessary, and a castle is, at least IMO, a fairly large construction project.

Are the PC's actually integral to its construction? Could they simply supervise? Could they hire supervisors and then leave on quests and adventures, checking in from time to time to see the progress?

In my experience, the presence of the owner tends to slow, not accelerate, construction. I'm only assuming this is the Party's castle, so, do they really need to be there?

The question also comes down to one of "what level are they"? Because that factors in to the amount of construction a single member of the party can contribute to, as well as the amount of ground they can cover to and from the castle while adventuring during its construction.

[NecessaryWeevil]

So maybe the solution, then, is to have an NPC whose judgement they trust point out the above to them.

[Inchhighguy]

You might want to adjust your story pacing.

If you...and the players...think ''stuff" happens like ''all the time", you should all take a step back and breathe.

Typicaly in fiction...even more so in RPGs things happen at light speed...you know, so things don't get normal and boring. Of course, in real life many things take forever.

So you have two empires that will start a war and blow up the world like next Friday. So...ok, stop and pause it. It's easy enough: just say the sign a peace treaty.

A natural disaster can also change lots of plans.

And if it's a high level game....you always have the option of Magic too. You could, for example, literaly freeze a whole continent in time.

Also why oh why is it taking them so long to bulid a castle? Are they hiring like goblin boofballs to bulid it? In a high level game, the group should have acess to plenty of magic to speed things up.

[RNightstalker]

Also why oh why is it taking them so long to bulid a castle? Are they hiring like goblin boofballs to bulid it? In a high level game, the group should have acess to plenty of magic to speed things up.

I agree. A few Lyres of Building and Mattocks of the Titan should make it in a fraction of the time.

[Berenger]

Building a castle in 520 days is ridiculously fast. Real castles were built over several years in near-perfect conditions and often it took several decades. Building them during wartime would be dangerous and a huge extra drain on resources. Generally, castles were built immediately after the war to secure the results.

What can be done in days or weeks are wooden forts and earthworks.

So, if it has to be done, use magic. I like jinn, building impressive monuments or city walls in a single night is an old-as-dirt trope for them.

[Madara]

You might want to adjust your story pacing.

If you...and the players...think ''stuff" happens like ''all the time", you should all take a step back and breathe.

Typicaly in fiction...even more so in RPGs things happen at light speed...you know, so things don't get normal and boring. Of course, in real life many things take forever.

So you have two empires that will start a war and blow up the world like next Friday. So...ok, stop and pause it. It's easy enough: just say the sign a peace treaty.

A natural disaster can also change lots of plans.

And if it's a high level game....you always have the option of Magic too. You could, for example, literaly freeze a whole continent in time.

Also why oh why is it taking them so long to bulid a castle? Are they hiring like goblin boofballs to bulid it? In a high level game, the group should have acess to plenty of magic to speed things up.

The problem isn't that the two empires will blow each other up next friday, it's that they players *think* the empires will blow each other up next friday. I've actually told them, "Hey, this is the early stages of a long military conflict. The enemy nation of Pelor will be stopping for the winter and waiting for a better season, they also need to resupply."

As for the magic- yeah, I'm hoping they think of it. I'm not the type of GM to say "Hey, here's this magic item that will speed it up." Instead I say "Using normal mundane means to build your castle, it would take 520 days for common laborers to gather and move materials then complete the building." If they ask, I will answer and be generous, but I just don't want to hand out solutions.

and "Your current planned method of using unintelligent undead would only speed up the moving of materials, assuming you use the Animate Dead spell as you proposed."

Any ideas on how to reshape their perception without doing the job of the players for them? I want to propose problems and be open to whatever their solutions may be and I'm trying to correct their party's *intel* or interpretation of their intel.

[TIPOT]

You could institute the training rules from the dmg p131. They seem like they would slow the pacing of events in game, as with them it's almost a given that the players will be allowed time to level in relative peace. If they feel less pressured in game time then they are more likely to do things like build a castle?

Alternatively the gritty rest variant would do something similar (or you could do both).

[King of Nowhere]

As for the magic- yeah, I'm hoping they think of it. I'm not the type of GM to say "Hey, here's this magic item that will speed it up." Instead I say "Using normal mundane means to build your castle, it would take 520 days for common laborers to gather and move materials then complete the building." If they ask, I will answer and be generous, but I just don't want to hand out solutions.

froom this, i assume that they are not veterans of the game. else they'd realize they can build a castle in a short time with magic easily.

so perhaps you should, just at first, point out the mystical solutions to them. once they realize they can use magic to do stuff, they will do it more and more.
and then you will regret the simple days when they would not be wreaking your plot all over.

[Celestia]

A quick and dirty method is to add simple, easy side quests that delay the major plots. Like, maybe the party can roll a couple diplomacy checks and put off the war for a couple years. Then they can build that castle without worrying about it. Just make sure that these will only work once so they can't just keep indefinitely delaying to war and turn it into a joke.

[Madara]

froom this, i assume that they are not veterans of the game. else they'd realize they can build a castle in a short time with magic easily.

so perhaps you should, just at first, point out the mystical solutions to them. once they realize they can use magic to do stuff, they will do it more and more.
and then you will regret the simple days when they would not be wreaking your plot all over.

Unfortunately they are actually veterans. The longest playing is at probably 10 years of experience and has DM'd. I think the group is just having it *woosh* over their heads for whatever reason.

I do currently have the training rules (playing 3.5) in play, but we've hit the soft level cap (level 9) and I do milestone leveling. So while previously it made quite a bit of time pass...it probably won't come up anytime soon.

The quick and dirty delay might need to be the option. How to make that apparent without just calling for a roll would be my next question.

[kitanas]

What do you think would happen if you just didn't give them any plot hooks for say, 3 months in game-time?

[Madara]

What do you think would happen if you just didn't give them any plot hooks for say, 3 months in game-time?

They would chase after the open ones with urgency. It's a side-effect of being open world. They stumbled in and out of new plot hooks all the time and just happened to keep leaving old ones and finding new ones...

They've piled up a stack of like 4/5 pretty solid plots. If I don't give any new ones, they'll still feel a sense of urgency.

[DMThac0]

Information is one of the biggest tools a party can have, the lack of it is generally a great way to make things go south fast.

Your party wants to build a castle, you want them to realize they've got time to do their RP stuff, and you're at a loss as to how to do it in game. Simple answer: tell them, repeat it to them, and let them hear it from NPCs.

DM (Pre game): Just so you know, events in the world aren't moving at break neck speed, you have time to work on your personal goals without fear of the game over screen."
---
DM: "Hey guys, you've been approached by a mason's guild to assist in the construction of your castle."
PCs: "We need to get this moving because the wave of black slime minions will attack soon."
DM: "No, actually, you know that the weather isn't conducive for the black slime minions, they're in hibernation for the next six months."
---
DM (OOC): "You guys have a good deal of free time to work with, use it to build the castle and gather information."

Give them both approaches and repeat it as necessary. Then, when you need something to happen, make it happen, otherwise don't interrupt their current goal with anything plot related. Have issues come up with building, materials, social and political encounters, but avoid anything plot related.

[Madara]

Information is one of the biggest tools a party can have, the lack of it is generally a great way to make things go south fast.

Your party wants to build a castle, you want them to realize they've got time to do their RP stuff, and you're at a loss as to how to do it in game. Simple answer: tell them, repeat it to them, and let them hear it from NPCs.

DM (Pre game): Just so you know, events in the world aren't moving at break neck speed, you have time to work on your personal goals without fear of the game over screen."
---
DM: "Hey guys, you've been approached by a mason's guild to assist in the construction of your castle."
PCs: "We need to get this moving because the wave of black slime minions will attack soon."
DM: "No, actually, you know that the weather isn't conducive for the black slime minions, they're in hibernation for the next six months."
---
DM (OOC): "You guys have a good deal of free time to work with, use it to build the castle and gather information."

Give them both approaches and repeat it as necessary. Then, when you need something to happen, make it happen, otherwise don't interrupt their current goal with anything plot related. Have issues come up with building, materials, social and political encounters, but avoid anything plot related.

I think repetition is a good point. This weekend I'll try to make sure that NPCs and in-game parties also reflect the same information.

I kinda knew it was an issue with not having enough info, but it's hard to really check "how much hinting is too much?"

[Inchhighguy]

Any ideas on how to reshape their perception without doing the job of the players for them? I want to propose problems and be open to whatever their solutions may be and I'm trying to correct their party's *intel* or interpretation of their intel.

Sure: You Can't. Mostly.

Most players, after they have gamed a time or two, set up some rock hard perceptions. And they can be near impossible to change.

A lot of players also struggle with the ''open game". The problem is that the game can be too open for the players. The idea that they can ''try'' anything is just too much. More so...not every player can think of everything.

It's common enough for many DMs to propose problems, that they can see like a hundred solutions too, and the player just sit there and maybe mumble "Um...our characters all eat an apple?"

This is where *extreme* things come in. If the DM says ''oh the war bulid up will take a year don't worry about it"....the players will STILL worry.

If the DM says TIME has been frozen in the two Empires, NOTHING at ALL will happen for a whole year, has much more impact.

[Tvtyrant]

A religious person does and out of respect the two empires make a 600 day treaty. The party's contractors will be done before the war starts, they can focus on side quests for the next four sessions and it will be done.

[Tawmis]

I have a bit of an unusual problem, or at least the lack of good Google results makes it seem that way-
I've created a variety of meaningful plot threads in a rather open-world setting and my high level D&D party is feeling like they *can't* have any down time or such because things will happen, which while kinda a good thing makes me feel like they're missing out.
The party wants to build a castle, but that'll take 520ish in-game days. (Which they're OKish with) but the problem is that they feel like the campaign will be over by then because the big looming war is coming or any number of still-open enemy plots might occur.
How can I help the party have time not to always be rushing from adventure to adventure?

Henchmen. If they can afford a castle, they can probably afford Henchmen.
That said, what's the point of owning a castle in such a short time if it's about to be over.

An important skill for a DM to have is read your players. Don't always give them EVERYTHING they want but don't BUMRUSH them through your campaign and make it so all they're doing is rolling dice to survive without their characters able to accomplish any personal goals. Because at that point, it feels hollow; everything they worked for amounted to no personal gain. They simply survived.

There's that saying, "Don't just live. Exist."

Meaning don't go through life, like day in, day out, same thing. The party members need to feel like they accomplished some of their own personal goals.

If this means "slowing down the looming war" - then slow it down.

Have things continue to happen; but have NPCs help hold back the fight so the party can accomplish some of their goals (in this case, building a castle).

And even have the final show down happen around their fortified castle, so not only have they accomplished a personal goal, it becomes the epicenter of the epic battle.

Just my 2 cents.

Take it or leave it, as you will.

[darkrose50]

Add some really bad winters where all that anyone can do is wait it out.

[Reevh]

My last campaign had a constant sense of impending doom, and we always felt like we were under time pressure to do something. Often, when we were faced with multiple threats and handled one, the other threat would progress. The result was that we never felt like we had the ability to have downtime more than a night here and there. We made the most of those nights, of course, but it's not like we could take a few weeks or a month to do something.

And you know what? It was fine. We all loved the campaign. Perhaps the next campaign will be less pressing and we'll have more downtime to play around with, but that doesn't have to be how all campaigns go.

Now, if you want to reassure your players that if they take some time off, it's not the end of the world, here's something you can do. In my last campaign, we players were up in the North dealing with a massive threat. We knew there was also a threat to the South of the city, but we determined the one to the north was more pressing, so that's where we went, certain that the southern threat would be devastating.

When we got back to the city, it had indeed been attacked by a ****ing ancient dragon with an army of undead, and we weren't there to deal with the threat. But it's a big city, and turns out we weren't the only potential heroes. The city's military stepped up, as did my character's aunt and cousin and sister, and more importantly a powerful noble that no one realized was a heavyweight spellcaster blew the dragon's head up (Psychic Scream kill). It turns out that even when we weren't there, there were others able to step up and do their part.

Now in this particular campaign it later turned out that the noble lady who blew up the dragon's head was actually the BBEG, but we didn't know it yet at the time.

[Madara]

My last campaign had a constant sense of impending doom, and we always felt like we were under time pressure to do something. Often, when we were faced with multiple threats and handled one, the other threat would progress. The result was that we never felt like we had the ability to have downtime more than a night here and there. We made the most of those nights, of course, but it's not like we could take a few weeks or a month to do something.

And you know what? It was fine. We all loved the campaign. Perhaps the next campaign will be less pressing and we'll have more downtime to play around with, but that doesn't have to be how all campaigns go.

Now, if you want to reassure your players that if they take some time off, it's not the end of the world, here's something you can do. In my last campaign, we players were up in the North dealing with a massive threat. We knew there was also a threat to the South of the city, but we determined the one to the north was more pressing, so that's where we went, certain that the southern threat would be devastating.

When we got back to the city, it had indeed been attacked by a ****ing ancient dragon with an army of undead, and we weren't there to deal with the threat. But it's a big city, and turns out we weren't the only potential heroes. The city's military stepped up, as did my character's aunt and cousin and sister, and more importantly a powerful noble that no one realized was a heavyweight spellcaster blew the dragon's head up (Psychic Scream kill). It turns out that even when we weren't there, there were others able to step up and do their part.

Now in this particular campaign it later turned out that the noble lady who blew up the dragon's head was actually the BBEG, but we didn't know it yet at the time.

This is really close to what I think they're feeling on the other side of the screen. I think the big thing for me is that they've expressed the desire to build a castle and make their mark, so I feel guilty when they don't think they'll get the fruits of their labor.

[Tawmis]

This is really close to what I think they're feeling on the other side of the screen. I think the big thing for me is that they've expressed the desire to build a castle and make their mark, so I feel guilty when they don't think they'll get the fruits of their labor.

Both myself:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...7&postcount=20

And Darkrose:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...4&postcount=21

Offered suggestions.

[Madara]

Both myself:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...7&postcount=20

And Darkrose:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...4&postcount=21

Offered suggestions.

I assume your suggestion was either henchmen to build the castle or to go and stall major conflicts. The first doesn't really help with the issue, as the party feels the castle won't be completed before the players have "finished" the campaign by clearing all the major plot threads (I mean, 500 days for a high level party...you can solve a lot) In IRL time, they imagine it will be at least another year's worth of sessions before their castle is completed and in that time they would solve the major problems.

If the henchmen are meant to go on their behalf, then it's an issue of why isn't the super high level party going to stop the threats? In their mind, even if the war was delayed, they wouldn't be delayed and would just go and keep attacking things because why shouldn't they?

The storm/winter would've worked at lower levels, but we're at 9th in 3.5 now so that's not going to stop them.

[erikun]

Why do your players feel like they don't have any free time? Why do they think that the war is going to explode and destroy everything within the next weekend? Why do they feel like they need to build a castle within the next two years or else they will never have the chance? Generally, there is going to be something which makes players feel like there is a pressing concern that is putting pressure on them. This may be something in game, this might be something from other games that they are bringing over, but there's usually some cause as to why players feel a particular way - especially when the sentiment is shared by everyone at the table.

I'll agree with DMThac0 that information is important here. I'm not sure that I'd present it in quite that way, but it sounds like the lack of good information is what's causing a big feeling of time crunch. I know you probably haven't thought out details of what's going on with this war, but perhaps set up some sort of timetable and give players a better idea of what is happening. As in, what's exactly going on with said war and where things stand. "A war is coming" sounds pressing and omnious, but "politics are arguing about blocking trade routes between the countries, and border guards are increasing" sounds a lot less like there's going to be fireballs everywhere next week. Especially if that's the status for several weeks in a row. The nice thing about a timeline is that you can just decide when the next tick on the dial hits, and you can prepare what each of those next escalations means. Perhaps nothing happens for a few months, and then everybody is talking about the news that the kingdom has hired all the blacksmiths to start crafting swords and pike heads. That's big news, and it gives the party information about what's currently happening.

And sure, they can talk with politically-savvy NPCs to get a better idea of what that all means. Because I don't expect the players to necessarily understand on their own.

The other question, of course, is why the players think that their PCs need to personally haul stone for a year and a half to build a castle. Typically, they'd pay gold for a work force to do that. Or they'd find an abandoned castle and take that over. The last time I was involved in a party that wanted their own castle (mansion, actually) they ended up giving several hundred gold pieces to the local contruction crew and went off on their adventures afterwards. If their one big concern is the campaign ending then simply slowing down the war and letting the party know should take care of that issue.

You could also look into time skips as well, periods where not much is really happening and so downtime can occur. There is not ALWAYS going to be a goblin raid or ALWAYS going to be orcs marching, and there might be a lull in new information during the slower travel months. Just check with your other players to see if they do want some downtime like this or if they'd prefer to choose it on their own. One factor I've found in games is that the DM would throw stuff at the party, which technically "didn't have to be completed" but realistically did in a certain time frame. When undead are attacking a fortress we are passing by, or when monsters are in the local mine preventing the city of getting the iron ore they trade in, these quests are "technically optional" but realistically the party would obviously be doing them. On the other hand, the quest to return a lost treasure to a banshee grave or explore the depths of a long abandoned castle are something which can be completed at any time, and so the campaign isn't going to explode and nobody is going to be dying if the party isn't immediately there.

[Reevh]

I assume your suggestion was either henchmen to build the castle or to go and stall major conflicts. The first doesn't really help with the issue, as the party feels the castle won't be completed before the players have "finished" the campaign by clearing all the major plot threads (I mean, 500 days for a high level party...you can solve a lot)

I think my last campaign lasted perhaps a little over a month in in-game time. Maybe 50 days total? Probably less. It was about a year and a half in real world time. We got a **** TON of stuff done in that time period, and leveled from 1 to 18, using normal XP progression. In the new campaign, the DM is getting rid of XP because he feels we leveled too fast.

[Tawmis]

I assume your suggestion was either henchmen to build the castle or to go and stall major conflicts. The first doesn't really help with the issue, as the party feels the castle won't be completed before the players have "finished" the campaign by clearing all the major plot threads (I mean, 500 days for a high level party...you can solve a lot) In IRL time, they imagine it will be at least another year's worth of sessions before their castle is completed and in that time they would solve the major problems.

If the henchmen are meant to go on their behalf, then it's an issue of why isn't the super high level party going to stop the threats? In their mind, even if the war was delayed, they wouldn't be delayed and would just go and keep attacking things because why shouldn't they?

The storm/winter would've worked at lower levels, but we're at 9th in 3.5 now so that's not going to stop them.

If all you saw was the suggestion of Henchmen, then you missed the point.
The more important point is reading your players.

Why not slow down the war - so that they CAN build the castle - and then make the castle the epicenter of the battle.
So not only do they get their castle - but they're also rewarded for making it the center of where the final battle takes place.
I think that would increase the player's fulfillment and enjoyment, considerably.

[Madara]

If all you saw was the suggestion of Henchmen, then you missed the point.
The more important point is reading your players.

Why not slow down the war - so that they CAN build the castle - and then make the castle the epicenter of the battle.
So not only do they get their castle - but they're also rewarded for making it the center of where the final battle takes place.
I think that would increase the player's fulfillment and enjoyment, considerably.

The war is slowed down. The players don't think it is and they don't want to twiddle their thumbs while someone builds their castle. Think of them like Washington attacking during winter- the war is paused but the heroes are still going to fight, which means no timeskip. There is no suspension of disbelief worthy reason currently for the players not to attack the enemy nation, which would take 30 sessions and only 20 in-game days and their castle wouldn't be built.

The reason for the thread is that I have read my players and I need to help them have a reason to stall out and get their castle.

[Reevh]

The war is slowed down. The players don't think it is and they don't want to twiddle their thumbs while someone builds their castle. Think of them like Washington attacking during winter- the war is paused but the heroes are still going to fight, which means no timeskip. There is no suspension of disbelief worthy reason currently for the players not to attack the enemy nation, which would take 30 sessions and only 20 in-game days and their castle wouldn't be built.

The reason for the thread is that I have read my players and I need to help them have a reason to stall out and get their castle.

Well, if they're that eager to go to war, maybe let them have their castle after the campaign?

If you really want to stall them out, though, maybe have a really harsh winter roll in. Or a massive mountain range suddenly raised between the armies, the product of a benevolent wizard who wanted to stop the war, but whose effort will result in his own death and only delay the inevitable as the enemy marches around the range to another mountain pass. Perhaps an enterprising assassin killed the enemy leader and there's an internal succession fight in the other kingdom, delaying the war effort until a new leader is coronated.

Some kind of deus ex machina could do the trick.