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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Shawn actually knew you were going to be unfrozen around that time, and wanted you to pick up the trail. How did Shawn knew you were going to wake up THEN?
    I always assumed he sent a courser or what-have-you to flip the switch and unfreeze you--said courser would then leave the vault before you woke up, since the whole point was to have you fight your way through the wasteland alone. Of course, that in itself is a ridiculous thing to do, especially if you're playing the character who is apparently canonically a lawyer...those deathclaws are going to wilt before your reasoned legal defence, let me tell you!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    it's handwaved away with magic cybernetics (that apparently Shaun can't use to not die because reasons, and this in a game which already has a completely different magic immortality juice).
    In this case, I always think that nobody within the Institute uses that tech on themselves because it's synth tech, and they just consider that stuff beneath them. You have to assume everyone in the Institute has an in-bred hatred of synths which overrides their fear of their own mortality, but that's not too far a leap to make given how most of them behave toward synths!

    Overall, my biggest problem with Kellogg's actions in the vault aren't that he shot one person, but that he apparently deliberately sabotaged the cryo-pods so no-one other than you survived. It wasn't even necessary to do that to force you to leave the vault alone--if you were just incapable of opening the other pods then you'd have no choice but to head out into the wider world, and the "Why did only my pod open?" question could be answered by the Courser I suggested above.

  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I always assumed he sent a courser or what-have-you to flip the switch and unfreeze you--said courser would then leave the vault before you woke up, since the whole point was to have you fight your way through the wasteland alone. Of course, that in itself is a ridiculous thing to do, especially if you're playing the character who is apparently canonically a lawyer...
    Housewife turned lawyer - IIRC, Nora just got her JD, and was still in the process of finding a company to work for.

    So her primary skills involve cooking, cleaning and dealing with baby poop.

    Overall, my biggest problem with Kellogg's actions in the vault aren't that he shot one person, but that he apparently deliberately sabotaged the cryo-pods so no-one other than you survived.
    I think that was the plan as to ensure the Backup's pod continued to operate. By terminating all the other pods, all the resources were devoted to the Backup, and the system was operating at a lesser load - thus, improving the chances the Backup's pod didn't malfunction.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2019-11-14 at 01:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Shawn put as bait for his surviving parent the Institute's most trusted, dangerous agent and.. Hoped you'd.. Kill him? Because you being an Old World Survivor obviously means you can fight against the Institute's top agent.
    Not just hoping you'd kill him, but that you'd kill him in a way that caused his implants to survive and that you'd think to root around in his head-meats to get hold of those cybernetics and take them to someone who can plug you into his dead brain in order to find the next breadcrumb in the trail.

    The more you examine Fallout 4's story the stupider it gets. (Which, to be fair, is also true of Fallout 3)

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    (Which, to be fair, is also true of Fallout 3)
    What, why do you want the party members who're immune to radiation to activate a machine that floods the control chamber with lethal levels of radiation when it's activated?

    Don't you know you're supposed to be the Selfless Hero that dies in the end? What are you doing trying to circumvent your destiny with logic!? Push the button yourself and DIE!
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  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    What, why do you want the party members who're immune to radiation to activate a machine that floods the control chamber with lethal levels of radiation when it's activated?

    Don't you know you're supposed to be the Selfless Hero that dies in the end? What are you doing trying to circumvent your destiny with logic!? Push the button yourself and DIE!
    You mean the machine that nobody at all needed because there are about three people in the entire Capital Wasteland who seem to have any problems with water.

    That shouldn't even have been needed to do the thing it does because you can purify water with a plastic bag, a bucket, and a hole in the ground.

    That needed a magic matter rearranging device that was hidden behind a locked wooden door in a community that has managed to retain a stable population of only people under the age of, generously, 18 for two hundred years.

    Fallout 3 and 4 are fractally stupid, the more you zoom in on the details the more stupid you find.

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That shouldn't even have been needed to do the thing it does because you can purify water with a plastic bag, a bucket, and a hole in the ground.
    For that matter, in the very first town you visit after leaving the vault (Megaton) you can get a house which comes with a Mr. Handy robot--who, when asked, can make as much pure water as you want. This tends to be the problem with Bethesda world-building, they're absolutely fantastic at showing what the old world was like through the logs and skeletons you find as you travel, but they really don't seem to have much clue how the *new* world should operate. So, they write a main storyline which involves a desperate shortage of water, without ever showing that desperate shortage anywhere. Just like in Fallout 4 they write a storyline which largely makes the Institute out to be the villains as far as everyone else in the Commonwealth is concerned, but then they never actually do anything particularly villainous--certainly nothing so bad that you'd feel the need to nuke the place at the end.

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Spoiler: Fallout 3 story summarized
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    I thought Fallout 4's story was even worse, but unfortunately I haven't seen a similar picture for it.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The Institute quest already doesn't make sense.

    Kellogg looks exactly the same in the game as he does in the intro, despite allegedly now being 109 years old and it's handwaved away with magic cybernetics (that apparently Shaun can't use to not die because reasons, and this in a game which already has a completely different magic immortality juice). He consistently refers to the head of the Institutite being "the old man" in both the intro and the game despite being 60 years older than said "old man" during the game, (phrased the same way in a way that would generally indicate he is talking about the same person), and his actions during the intro make no sense at all because he had no reason shoot anyone. Likewise the quest to track Kellogg falls apart because it's all written so as not to disturb your perspective that the events you're tracking him for are recent, but they aren't and he has no reason to be where he is or to have left a trail for you to follow.

    That, not anything from Far Harbour is why people assume that the story would be that protagonist's memories from before the player assumed control were all fake and the twist would be that they were a synth.
    Really? See, when I am confronted with a story that makes no sense, my reaction is to write the story off entirely, not to project an even more arcane and non-sensical set of 'hidden lore' supported by precisely zero evidence. That's the kind of thinking that gets people believing conspiracy theories.

    The main story from Fallout 4 is a glorified tutorial. I'm on record as asserting it would be better if they'd given you no long-term mission upon emerging from the vault at all, just let you wander around encountering the residents of the wasteland and make your own way, instead of leaning on the tired MacGuffin trope (Water Chip, GECK, Shaun, the Package). It's just not necessary to the gameplay, and actually gives you the implicit freedom to play in the sandbox in a manner consistent with its design.
    Last edited by The_Jackal; 2019-11-14 at 09:10 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    It would certainly be better if the main plotline didn't start until later in the game. The problem you often have with open world RPGs (not just Bethesda ones) is that you have this main quest from the beginning of the game that, to all appearances, is pretty urgent, but you're pretty much expected to ignore the main quest and just head off and do every subquest going, which rather saps the main quest of its urgency. I think Morrowind handled this the best, though--when you start out you're just given a simple instruction to visit Caius Cosaides in Balmora, and you're free to ignore that. You don't get to the world-shattering quests until a long way into the game, so wandering around doing as you will makes more sense.

  10. - Top - End - #640
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It would certainly be better if the main plotline didn't start until later in the game. The problem you often have with open world RPGs (not just Bethesda ones) is that you have this main quest from the beginning of the game that, to all appearances, is pretty urgent, but you're pretty much expected to ignore the main quest and just head off and do every subquest going, which rather saps the main quest of its urgency. I think Morrowind handled this the best, though--when you start out you're just given a simple instruction to visit Caius Cosaides in Balmora, and you're free to ignore that. You don't get to the world-shattering quests until a long way into the game, so wandering around doing as you will makes more sense.
    I found New Vegas to be very good in this regard too. There's nothing urgent about the main quest until pretty late into the game.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    I found New Vegas to be very good in this regard too. There's nothing urgent about the main quest until pretty late into the game.
    I dunno, you'd think the whole "I 'gun get that son-bitch who shot me" would be a fairly high priority thing in most people's eyes.

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Really? See, when I am confronted with a story that makes no sense, my reaction is to write the story off entirely, not to project an even more arcane and non-sensical set of 'hidden lore' supported by precisely zero evidence. That's the kind of thinking that gets people believing conspiracy theories.
    We're not talking about "hidden lore", we're talking about a Doylist explanation "Bethesda intended to do this but changed it later because people guessed it on the internet".

    It's an attempt to understand why it sucks not fix-fic it.


    (Of course, there's a simpler explanation which also explains Fallout 3, which is that Bethesda wouldn't know a well told story if it bit them on the arse and they really thought all of this nonsense was clever.)

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I dunno, you'd think the whole "I 'gun get that son-bitch who shot me" would be a fairly high priority thing in most people's eyes.
    Revenge is a dish best served cold though. The bastard will get what's coming to him, eventually. That doesn't mean you can't stop and smell the roses along the way.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I dunno, you'd think the whole "I 'gun get that son-bitch who shot me" would be a fairly high priority thing in most people's eyes.
    It is certainly a hook that can appeal to several types of players, from the good that want to get the chip back to deliver to the vindictive who want to shoot Benny in the head with his own gun. :3
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    It is certainly a hook that can appeal to several types of players, from the good that want to get the chip back to deliver to the vindictive who want to shoot Benny in the head with his own gun. :3
    What about people who rock up to The Tops, pickpocket Benny for his gun, and then come back 30 hours later to shoot him in the head with it?

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    We're not talking about "hidden lore", we're talking about a Doylist explanation "Bethesda intended to do this but changed it later because people guessed it on the internet".

    It's an attempt to understand why it sucks not fix-fic it.


    (Of course, there's a simpler explanation which also explains Fallout 3, which is that Bethesda wouldn't know a well told story if it bit them on the arse and they really thought all of this nonsense was clever.)
    There's 2 twists that, added on top of "you were a Synth all along!" could make for good storytelling potential:

    1- you are not the first you

    There were other Lone Survivor synths created before you. They all had adventure, and became leader of their respective factions, somewhat unaware of each other's, before you arrived in the Commonwealth. Since each emerged at 20 years of intervals, there was little chance of them crossing path.

    They all became various sort of individuals, reflecting the various path you can take as a player. Some were good people, some were evil. Some were ambitious and imperialist, others just wanted to help in low key manner.

    It would inject the theme that you could become anything you want, that your path isn't preset. Also, it would make for good, understandably powerful endgame antagonists as they are.. As skilled as you.

    Twist 2- unrelated to twist 1

    The original Nate and Nora are alive. Well, they were alive. They got captured with Shawn, and were invited to join the Institute. Your mirror self actually died of natural causes recently, but your original partner is still alive, albeit extremely old and on their death bed.

  17. - Top - End - #647
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    (Of course, there's a simpler explanation which also explains Fallout 3, which is that Bethesda wouldn't know a well told story if it bit them on the arse and they really thought all of this nonsense was clever.)
    Yes, and that's the conclusion I came to. But then, I'm fairly skeptical about the utility of narrative in games anyway. Games need a good premise, and good gameplay. They don't necessarily need a good story. A good story isn't unwelcome, but it has little or nothing to do with whether a game is enjoyable, and in many cases, features which would make a story more entertaining will make a game less fun. The best stories put the protagonist in extremely dire straits, beat them down hard, just to show how much they can take, before you receive the emotional payoff of them prevailing against all odds.

    Let me explain. Take one of my favorite set-pieces in the history of action movies: The airplane fight in "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

    Spoiler: For crying out loud, don't watch if you haven't seen the film before
    Show

    This scene is a master-class of suspense, action, and drama, all in a tight, 5-minute scene. But if you tried to contrive this kind of moment in a video-game, it would be a terrible scene. The fight, from the perspective of the protagonist is a dog's breakfast. His original plan goes badly wrong, his ward walked directly into mortal peril, making his job immeasurably harder, and the enemies he fought did a better job of killing themselves than the protagonist did at killing them. But it's riveting and makes us feel Indy's desperation, panic, and ultimately relief at surviving. If you introduced gameplay mechanics which regularly made these moments happened, they would be supremely frustrating. That's because gameplay is about agency and execution, not narrative or drama. While you do want fights to be challenging, you want them to be challenging for a reason, not just because the game narrative hijacks your agency by fiat.
    Last edited by The_Jackal; 2019-11-15 at 06:50 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #648
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    What about people who rock up to The Tops, pickpocket Benny for his gun, and then come back 30 hours later to shoot him in the head with it?
    Those people clearly wanted to be level-appropriate for the encounter. XD
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I dunno, you'd think the whole "I 'gun get that son-bitch who shot me" would be a fairly high priority thing in most people's eyes.
    If somebody completely outclasses you in a fight and you only survive by sheer good fortune, you don't immediately go and pick another fight with them. You spend some time training, gathering resources and finding allies. Or in video game terms, doing sidequests to level up and recruit companions.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Yes, and that's the conclusion I came to. But then, I'm fairly skeptical about the utility of narrative in games anyway. Games need a good premise, and good gameplay. They don't necessarily need a good story.
    I think that all depends on the game. RPGs really need some sort of coherent story to be at their best. Sure, you can get by with garbage story and still have a reasonably entertaining product, as Fallout 4 proves, but Fallout: New Vegas is arguably not as good a game as Fallout 4 in terms of the actual gameplay, yet is generally considered the superior game--and I think that's entirely down to its much better realised storyline.

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think that all depends on the game. RPGs really need some sort of coherent story to be at their best.
    Going to second this. I tend to drop games without good (or at least passable) stories.

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    A good game story does not make you shout "How the **** does that make sense" while playing it.

    A great game story does not make you ask that quietly when you're lying in bed and can't sleep.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think that all depends on the game. RPGs really need some sort of coherent story to be at their best. Sure, you can get by with garbage story and still have a reasonably entertaining product, as Fallout 4 proves, but Fallout: New Vegas is arguably not as good a game as Fallout 4 in terms of the actual gameplay, yet is generally considered the superior game--and I think that's entirely down to its much better realised storyline.
    I would say it's less storyline and more individual quest narrative.

    RPG quests are, frankly, boring on their own. You have 5 basic types: talk to this guy, kill this guy, kill ALL these guys, bring me these, or take this there. There's some variation but not much.

    The game's entire entertainment value as far as quests goes is being given a reason to CARE about this repetitive busywork you've done a hundred times before in other games.

    Fallout 4 accomplishes this in a few of the better sidequests, certainly (the asylum, the amusing robot pirate ship quest, the entirety of Far Harbor), but not enough of them to make me want to replay the game any time soon.

    New Vegas more consistently provides a narrative that engages the player in even the most menial tasks (with some exceptions...I never really gave a **** about the whole "Bring me a Deathclaw egg and I'll bone you" quest for example).

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    RPG quests are, frankly, boring on their own. You have 5 basic types: talk to this guy, kill this guy, kill ALL these guys, bring me these, or take this there. There's some variation but not much.
    And the loathed 'take this person to this location'. Who will walk slow as long as they're on the route, but then speed up to absurd speed if combat is triggered... only to return to the point of origin and resume the Slow Walk. Even if the escorted individual has less health than a starting D&D mage. Who could be beat up by your bog-standard housecat.
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    New Vegas more consistently provides a narrative that engages the player in even the most menial tasks (with some exceptions...I never really gave a **** about the whole "Bring me a Deathclaw egg and I'll bone you" quest for example).
    You also get Dinner Bell, one of the best shotguns in the game (especially with the Cowboy perk).
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    You also get Dinner Bell, one of the best shotguns in the game (especially with the Cowboy perk).
    Sure, but we're talking about narrative reasons to play, and that quest doesn't really deliver.

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Sure, but we're talking about narrative reasons to play, and that quest doesn't really deliver.
    I mean, she was already a slice of crazy from the beginning. Did you expect any less crazy from her?
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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think that all depends on the game. RPGs really need some sort of coherent story to be at their best. Sure, you can get by with garbage story and still have a reasonably entertaining product, as Fallout 4 proves, but Fallout: New Vegas is arguably not as good a game as Fallout 4 in terms of the actual gameplay, yet is generally considered the superior game--and I think that's entirely down to its much better realised storyline.
    Well, if you take away the story from an RPG, you've got a small-unit tactics game. The game changes, but I don't think you can make the argument that it's strictly necessary. Now if you wish to assert that many computer RPGs have a rather rudimentary type of gameplay, and more of the production value is put into fleshing out the narrative, I wouldn't disagree. But at some point, this spectrum describes how much game is in your game, as opposed to how much scripted movie and/or dialogue tree navigation exercise.

    I want to be clear, I like a good story in my games. Bioshock Infinite is a great story in a great game. But not every great game needs a great story. There's no story in the Tekken franchise, to speak of, but they're great games.

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    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post

    I want to be clear, I like a good story in my games. Bioshock Infinite is a great story in a great game. But not every great game needs a great story. There's no story in the Tekken franchise, to speak of, but they're great games.
    Wuh? Tekken is one of the most story heavy fighting game franchises around.

  30. - Top - End - #660
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    Cikomyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Montreal
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fallout IX: Nuclear Cash Cows Go MMOoooooo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Wuh? Tekken is one of the most story heavy fighting game franchises around.
    Is this the one that transpired in the first and third Tekken movies?

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