Avengers 4: Endgame trailer

[Legato Endless]

I tend to just ignore the pseudo-science as much as possible and run with what they've established he can do by showing it.

Yeah, that's always an excellent rule of thumb.

Hank gave Scott a BS explanation because Scott is a thief and not a scientist. Obviously the particles don't work the way he said. Move on lol.

What's funny is Hank's explanation is more convoluted than what seems to be happening. So it's less he's over simplifying and more he's ******* around with someone who can't call him on it.

For that's matter, Scott's actually reasonably educated with a master's in Electrical Engineering, improvises some basic chemistry to break into Hank's vault, and was a successful systems engineer who hacked a corporation. Scott almost certainly has more scientific grounding than any of the Avengers who aren't super scientists. But this isn't impressive because he comes into contact with a lot of super scientists. It's not really a matter of intelligence so much as he's got no grounding in this relevant field so Hank can yank him around just for kicks. Which admittedly seems perfectly in character for Pym.

He never has the mass of a man outside of when he punches something or is full size. Its not even a selective thing he can do, he always punches with full size strength, and when he's small he always acts like he's lightweight as well, with the single, consistent exception of the punching.

Opening sequence. Scott is very light when he's swept around by the water or the vinyl disc. He's considerably denser when he cracks the bathroom floor after the water has shoved him out of the tub. He's not punching anything. Just getting smacked into the floor.

He doesn't sometimes have the mass of a man when somebody swats him or anything.

Right after the above, he's catapulted by a mouse trap into shattering a window and lands with an audible thud onto a car. The better explanation to me is that Pym particles can increase or decrease mass and do so independent of the size shifting. That best fits with every interaction unless I'm missing something.

[Tvtyrant]

Trailer is confirmed to be so boring we have now spent multiple pages talking about Ant-Man. Perhaps they should have killed some Avengers sooner so Stark dying felt like legitimate tension.

I do think Marvel would have been better served making micro-universes where certain characters team up and not just side with the big guys. Ant-Man, Spiderman, Guardians of the Galaxy and Nu-Thor are way sillier then James Bond Captain and the Shield cast, or Old-Hulk and alcoholic Iron Man.

Moving the entire setting to shiney quip land characters limits their options. Banner being funny I particularly felt missed what was cool about the character.

[ben-zayb]

For that's matter, Scott's actually reasonably educated with a master's in Electrical Engineering,

It's hard not to put this (academic) claim under scrutiny when he shows difficulty in grasping even the simple hypotheticals of his universe's version of quantum mechanics. EE, alongside its IEEE brethren, is easily one of the engineering disciplines that leans expertise towards quantum theory.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ant Man should be an example of the hero with limits, that's why he should stay and work within the boundaries set by those limits, while Iron Man is an example for the limitless hero and the fun is watching what suits and tech he comes up with.

To your point, I actually don't like that Iron Man gets a major upgrade every movie. I liked that his armored suit basically just protected him from blasts and shot missiles and concussive blasts. In other words, I preferred him as a hero with limits.

A tech-based hero without limits just always begs the question of why they aren't radically changing the world for the better. Look at Wakanda with their vibranium. Tony could be doing that a thousand times over for the rest of the world, since his arc reactors seem to be as easily replicated as a common battery.

Similar to Stark, I like Antman when he is just a tiny guy that can still punch people. The quantum realm opening up super powers and time travel and stuff takes it too far for me. But be that as it may, I still like the characters so.

For that's matter, Scott's actually reasonably educated with a master's in Electrical Engineering, improvises some basic chemistry to break into Hank's vault, and was a successful systems engineer who hacked a corporation.

I thought to myself "DocSam, you better fact check yourself before you post this comment, or else someone is going to come in here and tell you that actually Scott is a genius scientist..." But I was too lazy. I thought... at best he's a mechanical engineer, but still not an expert in particle science .

Trailer is confirmed to be so boring we have now spent multiple pages talking about Ant-Man.

Lmao, very true.

Also agree about other point; "everyone is quippy" is not great.

[russdm]

LMAO

Tony Stark building a reactor the size of a baseball in a cave, from scraps, and using it to power a mech-suit instead of solving all of the world's problems is okay.

Because the scraps were from weapons Stark's company made? So he would how to use them and work with them? Also know or be aware of the dangers?

Antman guy, has this desire to join the Avengers and given all of the garbage they go through, why would he want to? Then, he has a pretty by the numbers Comic Hero plot: Worries about family, about loved; meets some mentor guy who has another student person who turned out evil; fights other student; rinse and repeat.

Plus, really didn't find much of the character really. What defines him beyond having a kid he worries about and needing money, and used to be criminal? How much does that end up applying really? He tries to rob Pym's place, fails, and suddenly that qualifies him to learn about Pym's secret stuff? Really? Wouldn't Pym's stuff be actually worth a lot of money, enough to set Antman well off? So why all the hero stuff?

And then he needs to stop Pym's whatever from the selling the stuff he knows to the government, because why again? What was the reason? To keep it safe for something? Keep it safe from Stark?

Is that really how former superheroes go about getting a student? Pick the first person to apparently break-in and do X or Y? What was stopping Scott (Was it? I forgot his name) from just leaving when he can and selling it all? I mean, the US government or any government in the MCU would big monies for it, and none have been shown so far to care about ethics really. Like if it was stolen material at all. With Pym not interested in selling, and the US gov buying, would they really not just say "How much do you want?" if Scott showed up with Pym's stuff?

[Dr.Samurai]

Because the scraps were from weapons Stark's company made? So he would how to use them and work with them? Also know or be aware of the dangers?

What does a fuel-less seemingly limitless source of power operate like? Do you feel the arc reactor has been dealt with in a consistent manner in the MCU? That's the point. Stark made one of these from scraps in a cave. I appreciate that he is familiar with the tech. The point is that he made a fuel-less limitless power source from scraps in a cave. Is it that easy to make a power source like that? Is Stark that much a genius? Either way, what impact has it had in the world in the eight years since he's created it? Nothing.

It hasn't even impacted his team. With the exception of maybe Spider-man, but I don't know if the Iron Spider suit uses an Arc Reactor.

This is not consistent. That is *serious* tech that is hand-waived away except for Tony's suit.

I get the worrying about Pym particles and consistency. But it's hardly the most egregious example. Vibranium has allowed Wakanda to isolate itself and become a tech-paradise. Arc reactors would do the same for the rest of the world. So if you're going to nit-pick Pym particles, you might as well nit-pick the fact that Stark has done ****-all with the ability to create a seemingly endless supply of limitless power sources.

EDIT: And don't forget nano-particles lol.

[Tvtyrant]

Vibranium works differently in every single film of it.

First it is indestructible and reflects all energy off of it (Avengers), then it reflects most energy but not all (Winter Soldier). then it absorbs energy but explodes given enough (Age of Ultron). then it can draw and release energy like a super-conductor as well as still being indestructible and can cut through anything (black panther.)



The best part is they don't pass that or the iron man tech around even to the avengers. Vision is the only fusion of the two.

Wanda in an invincible suit would be unstoppable, Black Widow has to pick up enemy laser guns in each movie, even The Hulk and Thor could use some invincible armor.

[The Glyphstone]

Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

[Tvtyrant]

Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

Is it okay if I sig this?

[The Glyphstone]

Go for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1yo2Tlj9TY

Special edition version of the trailer.

[Devonix]

What does a fuel-less seemingly limitless source of power operate like? Do you feel the arc reactor has been dealt with in a consistent manner in the MCU? That's the point. Stark made one of these from scraps in a cave. I appreciate that he is familiar with the tech. The point is that he made a fuel-less limitless power source from scraps in a cave. Is it that easy to make a power source like that? Is Stark that much a genius? Either way, what impact has it had in the world in the eight years since he's created it? Nothing.

It hasn't even impacted his team. With the exception of maybe Spider-man, but I don't know if the Iron Spider suit uses an Arc Reactor.

This is not consistent. That is *serious* tech that is hand-waived away except for Tony's suit.

I get the worrying about Pym particles and consistency. But it's hardly the most egregious example. Vibranium has allowed Wakanda to isolate itself and become a tech-paradise. Arc reactors would do the same for the rest of the world. So if you're going to nit-pick Pym particles, you might as well nit-pick the fact that Stark has done ****-all with the ability to create a seemingly endless supply of limitless power sources.

EDIT: And don't forget nano-particles lol.

A strange thing is that they've partially covered this. In the first Avengers movie Stark builds an Arc reactor capable of powering New york yet it's never mentioned later. The entire planet should have clean free, limitless energy right now. That's what the world nations should be after, not flying suits, but something that removes the need for any other resource.

[Keltest]

Vibranium works differently in every single film of it.

First it is indestructible and reflects all energy off of it (Avengers), then it reflects most energy but not all (Winter Soldier). then it absorbs energy but explodes given enough (Age of Ultron). then it can draw and release energy like a super-conductor as well as still being indestructible and can cut through anything (black panther.)



The best part is they don't pass that or the iron man tech around even to the avengers. Vision is the only fusion of the two.

Wanda in an invincible suit would be unstoppable, Black Widow has to pick up enemy laser guns in each movie, even The Hulk and Thor could use some invincible armor.

Actually, I believe that has an explanation. Cap's shield isn't pure vibranium, at least in the comics, its an alloy with (I think) iron and adamantium. What we see in AoU and Black Panther is Raw Vibranium, which acts differently than its various refined states, which is what the Wakandans use. This is far more visible in the comics where they can just have the talking heads give an exposition dump, and I don't know if the adamantium bit is canon for the MCU because of the X-Men legal stuff, but in the material it draws from, this isn't all just one flavor of Vibranium.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, I believe that has an explanation. Cap's shield isn't pure vibranium, at least in the comics, its an alloy with (I think) iron and adamantium. What we see in AoU and Black Panther is Raw Vibranium, which acts differently than its various refined states, which is what the Wakandans use. This is far more visible in the comics where they can just have the talking heads give an exposition dump, and I don't know if the adamantium bit is canon for the MCU because of the X-Men legal stuff, but in the material it draws from, this isn't all just one flavor of Vibranium.

Caps shield doesn't always work the same way in the same movie. In Avengers it deflects Thor's hammer strike which would have flattened him like a bug if it retained momentum, and hurls the energy around destroying trees. A handgrenade later in the same movie throws him out a window and the shield doesn't reflect the explosion.

In his next movie he gets knocked over by a kick to his shield.

I'm sure there are some explanation to it, I just don't think Ant-Man looks more egregious in the films than Vibranium does.

[Keltest]

Caps shield doesn't always work the same way in the same movie. In Avengers it deflects Thor's hammer strike which would have flattened him like a bug if it retained momentum, and hurls the energy around destroying trees. A handgrenade later in the same movie throws him out a window and the shield doesn't reflect the explosion.

In his next movie he gets knocked over by a kick to his shield.

I'm sure there are some explanation to it, I just don't think Ant-Man looks more egregious in the films than Vibranium does.

The grenade could be explained by him being in the air and not completely behind the shield. I don't recall the scene in Winter Soldier where he gets kicked.

But yes, Ant Man does not stand out particularly strongly as being inconsistent with his powers.

[Rakaydos]

What the Ant man continuity needed was Goliath, when shouting at Pym, to throw in something like "you dont even know the difference between inertial and gravatational mass." with a reply that "there IS no difference, you-" "Guys, guys, stop!"

In our universe, there is no difference- inertial mass=gravatational mass. But pym particles appear to reduce gravatational mass (you are lighter) but still let you impact things with force (inertial mass).

Pym and goliath having different ideas ow their tech works,and pym actually having the wrong explanation, makes sense in my mind. too bad the movies dont back me up.

[Devonix]

I don't really worry about science stuff or powers not making sense. It's a movie, How they work isn't as important as what the story does with them.

My bigger worry is that the existance of them have a realistic impact on the story and universe.

[Chen]

In our universe, there is no difference- inertial mass=gravatational mass. But pym particles appear to reduce gravatational mass (you are lighter) but still let you impact things with force (inertial mass).

This does seem to line up pretty well, except the whole tank on a keychain thing would tear through your pocket every time you took a quick turn (or really just stood up). But it is more consistent than the BS they use in the movie.

[Rakaydos]

This does seem to line up pretty well, except the whole tank on a keychain thing would tear through your pocket every time you took a quick turn (or really just stood up). But it is more consistent than the BS they use in the movie.

You are assuming it was originally an actual tank. If it was originally a keychain he enlarged, modified, and shrunk again, it would be easier to move, but also doesn't involve a tank disappearing from a military base while pym was lying low.

Same applies to the Hot Wheels in the second movie. Having a hot wheels sized inertial mass would make them corner better than any real car.

[Keltest]

You are assuming it was originally an actual tank. If it was originally a keychain he enlarged, modified, and shrunk again, it would be easier to move, but also doesn't involve a tank disappearing from a military base while pym was lying low.

Same applies to the Hot Wheels in the second movie. Having a hot wheels sized inertial mass would make them corner better than any real car.

I feel like making a tank out of plastic kind of loses you most of the benefits of having a tank.

[Chen]

You are assuming it was originally an actual tank. If it was originally a keychain he enlarged, modified, and shrunk again, it would be easier to move, but also doesn't involve a tank disappearing from a military base while pym was lying low.

Same applies to the Hot Wheels in the second movie. Having a hot wheels sized inertial mass would make them corner better than any real car.

The tank broke out of a concrete building in the first movie. Don't think it was an enlarged toy. Same for the hot wheels. They were able to flip a real car over when enlarging themselves which I don't think would work for the inertial mass of a toy car...course now that I think about it it's not clear why that worked at all...

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, I believe that has an explanation. Cap's shield isn't pure vibranium, at least in the comics, its an alloy with (I think) iron and adamantium. What we see in AoU and Black Panther is Raw Vibranium, which acts differently than its various refined states, which is what the Wakandans use. This is far more visible in the comics where they can just have the talking heads give an exposition dump, and I don't know if the adamantium bit is canon for the MCU because of the X-Men legal stuff, but in the material it draws from, this isn't all just one flavor of Vibranium.

Even in the same film, Vibranium doesn't always do the same thing. For instance, it's explicitly called out as being what makes the little healing balls heal people. Shoving a battery into someone would not remove gunshot wounds, so it's a fairly distinct power apart from energy or durability. There's also a lot of broader credit given to vibranium for wakandian tech in general, but that's not quite so precise. It does seem to power trains, work well as a flexible body suit, and form a component of ray-beam weaponry.

It's difficult to imagine a substance with broader powers.

I don't overall, have much concern about ant-man specifically being consistent. I pretty much get his powerset. However, the original wasp...how did she live there so long? If it were a suspended in time thing, cool, I'm down with that. However, it appears that she aged...while living in her original costume. It opens up a lot of questions, at any rate. The quantum realm is pretty open ended as it currently stands.

[Wookieetank]

The quantum realm is pretty open ended as it currently stands.

I've found that a lot of fiction uses "quantum" in place of "magic" to give things more of a sci-fi feel than a fantasy one. And more often than not, that's about the only difference I've noticed in the two.

[Starbuck_II]

So you opinion on the man is small?

Lame jokes aside I can't wait to see how this retcon the last movie as well as retcons the fact that apparently Captain Marvel has been around since the 90s but didn't appeared in any film (including Avengers I, II, and III) before.

X-Men have been around just as long but they weren't in Avengers either. You can chalk that up to prejudice though.

Well, Hawkeye just doesn't have a lot of character in the movies. He's just... a guy. Pretty straight-laced, but that's Cap's schtick. His abilities also don't lend themselves well to putting him front and center, whereas Cap, as a guy that punches stuff and blocks things with his shield, is more in the thick of things.

They tried to do more in Age of Ultron but I don't think just showing that he has a wife and kids adds all that much personality to the character. So I hope we don't get too much of Arrow McBlandman in Avengers 4.

But Hawkeye has extra superpowers. He even made a song about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ27iS1mkuo

[deuterio12]

Even in the same film, Vibranium doesn't always do the same thing. For instance, it's explicitly called out as being what makes the little healing balls heal people. Shoving a battery into someone would not remove gunshot wounds, so it's a fairly distinct power apart from energy or durability. There's also a lot of broader credit given to vibranium for wakandian tech in general, but that's not quite so precise. It does seem to power trains, work well as a flexible body suit, and form a component of ray-beam weaponry.

It's difficult to imagine a substance with broader powers.

Carbon can be found in the form of coal (fuel), diamonds (super hard shiny stuff), carbon nanotubes (light and flexible), graphene (still figuring out the properties of that one), then mix in water and a tiny bit of metals and you get millions of different organic molecules with all kinds of properties.

So yes I can buy that all the different vibranium techs are different atomic structures and the right kind of doping/impurities added for more exotic stuff. Probably a significant amount of the vibranium tech is not 100% vibranium but rather 90% vibranium/2% X/ 8% Y that can produce widely different results depending on what you mix in.

[Frozen_Feet]

The most abundant metals tend to be just as versatile. Take a moment to think of everything we make out of iron. Or copper. Or aluminium. Or titanium.

A single element can do a lot and can serve as a backbone for a technological and cultural revolution... as did happen several times in real history.

[Devonix]

The study of vibranium jumpstared their understanding of technology. However bit isn't in all their tech.

But also its just a maguffin element. It doesn't really matter if it makes sense. The only thing that matters is what stories it allows them to tell.

[Mightymosy]

I've found that a lot of fiction uses "quantum" in place of "magic" to give things more of a sci-fi feel than a fantasy one. And more often than not, that's about the only difference I've noticed in the two.

I think you are right

[deuterio12]

The most abundant metals tend to be just as versatile. Take a moment to think of everything we make out of iron. Or copper. Or aluminium. Or titanium.

A single element can do a lot and can serve as a backbone for a technological and cultural revolution... as did happen several times in real history.

Well, with iron is the other way around, we use it a lot because it's the most common metal on Earth (around 2/3 of our planet's mass, even if most of it is the lower mantles and nucleus, still a lot near the surface). Iron's not really the best for anything when compared to stuff like copper/aluminium/titanium, but if you want true mass-production, then tough luck, iron's the only metal you can reliably harvest in big amounts. Quantity does have a quality of its own.

[Saintheart]

Carbon can be found in the form of coal (fuel), diamonds (super hard shiny stuff), carbon nanotubes (light and flexible), graphene (still figuring out the properties of that one), then mix in water and a tiny bit of metals and you get millions of different organic molecules with all kinds of properties.

So yes I can buy that all the different vibranium techs are different atomic structures and the right kind of doping/impurities added for more exotic stuff. Probably a significant amount of the vibranium tech is not 100% vibranium but rather 90% vibranium/2% X/ 8% Y that can produce widely different results depending on what you mix in.

It warms my heart that someone with a name similar to Deuterium is commenting on different atomic structures.

To your point, I actually don't like that Iron Man gets a major upgrade every movie. I liked that his armored suit basically just protected him from blasts and shot missiles and concussive blasts. In other words, I preferred him as a hero with limits.

A tech-based hero without limits just always begs the question of why they aren't radically changing the world for the better. Look at Wakanda with their vibranium. Tony could be doing that a thousand times over for the rest of the world, since his arc reactors seem to be as easily replicated as a common battery.

Then I guess it's time to try and speculate on the character's psychology. There are maybe one or two threads we can pull on to at least fig-leaf why Tony Stark isn't actually out saving the world with free energy.

First thread, maybe explanatory, maybe not: Tony is a narcissist. That aspect of him has never disappeared, no matter how many people he saves, no matter how many redemption arcs he goes through, no matter whether he becomes a father figure to the sad little excuse they got in to replace Andrew Garfield (parenthood might cure your immaturity, but it rarely if ever cures narcissism). Tony Stark is always and everywhere interested in the image he projects to others, he wants them to accept his brand first and foremost, he wants to be the main character of his own movie. There are few selfless things that we see him do throughout the series: even in Civil War his desire to put the Avengers in check is a projection of the fact a stranger -- the mother to the dead kid in Sekovia -- doesn't see him the way he wants to be seen. Even down to the last appeal he makes to (a narcissist of a different form) Steve Rogers: "You'll come with us because it's us." i.e. Because it's me, because this is my movie and you are supporting cast.

How would Tony Stark describe himself? No need for speculation, Steve Rogers asks him who he is without the suit in the first Avengers film: "Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist." Unfortunately Joss Whedon then chooses to include a reaction shot of Black Widow seeming to be turned on by this assertion, but anyway: four words. Four labels. All brands. Not things he does, not intrinsic character traits. Just brands. The selection of these four words is crucial: they're the sort of labels that Tony thinks impresses people, because those are what he wants people to think about him.

Why does narcissism explain Tony failing to mass-distribute the arc reactor technology? Because of the one brilliant insight that the film The Incredibles delivered: if everyone is special, no one is. Tony having given out the technology would then mean he's not special; the world is just like him, or rather, he's not the centre of the universe anymore. While he holds onto the Arc Reactor technology, he's a hero. When he doesn't, everyone gets limitless energy, nobody has to ask him for that favour anymore. "Oh, but he's a genius inventor, he can invent other stuff!" Ah, but only one piece of technology makes him special in his own mind: the technology that his father gave to him in part, the technology that is quite literally close to his heart. The technology that he really is nothing without ... or rather, the technology that he thinks makes him special and the centre of the universe. The suits might not be efficient without the arc reactor, but the suits - as Iron Man 2 shows us - can be made by others.

"But he gave his technology to Spider-Man!"
Excellent observation. Why?
Why hand over very powerful technology to a fourteen-year-old kid who's only been doing this for six months?
Why not hand it over to people you have explicitly called your "friends"?

Maybe for much the same reasons as ageing men often go out with 19 year old girls, or the same reasons as ageing women often go out with 19 year old boys: because the ageing narcissist wants above all else to be seen as something, and young kids can't see through who you are anywhere near as easily as the adults you've been hanging around with for years can.

Second thread, maybe more obvious on the films, but in my view ultimately just an excuse that Tony uses: the Bad Things the technology could be used for. Basically ever since Tony built his first miniaturised arc reactor, the people who've acquired it have been going bad. Obadiah Stane literally pulled the damn thing out of his chest and used it to power a killing machine; Whiplash/whatever character Mickey Rourke was playing from moment to moment duplicated the technology and immediately used it to also power a killing machine. The government tries to seize his property as well.

On the surface you could say that this pattern is the films' justification for Tony not giving over his technology for free use - because he can't trust anyone but himself with the tech - but I think it works better as the excuse that Tony uses for not giving the tech over. It's essential to his narcissistic personality that he retains the technology and retains control over it. When he tried to create Ultron, he was trying to create a force for world peace under his control. He didn't give the technology to others, he wanted to build something that would continue to leave him as the centre of the universe. "I have successfully privatised world peace!" Even when the Avengers signed the Sokovia Accords, notice he still didn't hand over his technology to them.

[deuterio12]

It warms my heart that someone with a name similar to Deuterium is commenting on different atomic structures.

It warms my heart that someone thinks that deuterium and deuterio are different things.