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Thread: A question of Alignment
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2007-09-21, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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A question of Alignment
I have a question about alignment in general:
if a chaotic good character, who makes a living as a magician, runs into rough times and feels the only way to get by is through stealing (even though they hate committing the crime, they don't have any other marketable skills), would they still be chaotic good, or would their alignment change?Don't think I don't know what you're not undoing
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2007-09-21, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-21, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Stealing isn't evil, its unlawful.
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2007-09-21, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Hell be reasonable about it. (Aka take from those that can afford it.) And that is basically the stereotype of Chaotic good. Even if you aint starving. (See Haley.)
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2007-09-21, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Stealing from people who can't afford to lose what you're taking, that would be evil.
Stealing from people who are endangering themselves/others with the item you've taken, that would be good.
Otherwise, I'd say chaotic neutral.
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2007-09-21, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
It's generally a moot point, since most PCs have more marketable skills than Indiana Jones. The whole 'I must steal to eat or I'll die!' thing is unlikely to happen to your character unless you want it to.
However, the answer is the same answer you usually get to alignment questions: "it depends". Who is your character stealing from? What are the consequences of her stealing? Does she steal only as much as she needs to survive, or more? Is she going to try to make up for it in the future somehow? What's she going to do if she gets caught stealing? Is she willing to attack the owners of the property, or the town guard, if they get in her way? Is she willing to kill them?
Depending on how you answer those questions, the answer could be yes or no.
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2007-09-21, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
It depends on how they go about it. "Good" in no way implies either following the law nor not stealing; it implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. So, a person who stole from people while minimizing harm and with concern for the mental well-being of the victims could be Good very easily, particularly if they made a point to take only what they themself needed or what the victim could afford to lose.
I'm guessing you're not wondering about changing "Chaos" in this instance, but again, Chaos in no way implies either following the law nor not stealing (though it ALSO doesn't imply breaking the law or stealing).
From the SRD:
Chaotic Good, "Rebel"
A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
Alignment really is what you make of it. You can perform virtually any action and remain within the bounds of any alignment if you go about it in the correct manner.
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2007-09-21, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
ID say CN or CG because chaotic going against the law, good for feeling bad, neutral for only caring about your self
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2007-09-21, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
along time ago i read something that is simple and has really stuck with me.
the good vs evil axis is:
good: motivated by helping people
evil: motivated by helping people
neutral: usually motivated by helping yourself
then the law vs chaos axis is:
law: favors organization(ie: does things the way they are "supposed" to be done even if it isnt the best way)
chaos: favors freedom(ie: does whatever they feel is the right thing reguardless of how it is "supposed" to be done)
neutral: follows the rules if possible but is not affraid of breaking them if nessesary.
that being said, stealing is not an evil act unless you are actively doing to to hurt someone else so in your case at the very worst a neutral act but because he feels remorse for what he is doing and would not take more than he needs to survive i would not consider it anything that would harm his good alignment unless you didnt work to correct the problem. i also feel he is even better off being chaotic because he would be even more inclined to break the law as long as it is for the greater good.
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2007-09-21, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
If you steal from the rich, you're still CG. Like Robin Hood or Haley, you know?
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2007-09-21, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-21, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
It also really helps if the rich people you're stealing from are evil, or at the very least, nongood.
Also, if you kept all the money to yourself, you'd probably shift towards Chaotic Neutral after a period of time. If, like Robin Hood or Haley you use some of your earnings to help others in need, you'd be able to easily maintain a good alignment.
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2007-09-21, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Robin Hood = Chaotic Good
Back when D&D gave examples of peaple from fiction. Mr. Hood was the example of CG
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2007-09-21, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Actually, Haley's only used her earnings for herself and her father, as far as I'm aware. Sure, she lent the dirt farmers a hand, but that was just a minor diversion (for level 10+ adventurers, taking out an ogre encampment is like us level 1-5 folks picking something up at the library for someone), and it didn't decrease her personal wealth at all (minus the negligible cost of arrows).
As far as "robbing the rich" goes, I'm not sure if simply robbing the rich and giving to yourself would qualify you for "Chaotic Neutral." Redistributing wealth from the corrupt rich to the oppressed poor is CG, but just plain stealing money from rich targets is a little more hazy. It's decidedly non-Lawful, but other than that it's a matter of context.
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2007-09-21, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-21, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
An evil person is someone who is willing to harm others for personal gain, so as long as you are not stealing enough from anyone to cause them any real harm you are not evil, stealing is still a bad thing, but that doesn't make you evil, however I could see argument that you wouldn't be good. A good person is willing to take risks and make personal sacrifices to help others, and someone who steals for a living is clearly doing what they do for themselves and not others.
I would say they are likely chaotic neutral, but it's really a hard thing to say without more info, alignment is the total moral and ethical sum of your characters actions, it's not based off of any one instance."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
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2007-09-21, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
Depends. If you are stealing from a rich nongood lawful, then its not such a big deal, you can stay CG but better watch it with the rest of your activities. Stealing from a fellow chaotic good or any good, especially one that is in need would slip you to CN.
Stealing ill gotten gain is a bit better and doesn't net you any bad karma if you share more than 51% with those who are in need or deserve it.
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2007-09-22, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
It would probably be a good idea to be doing other good things, so as to keep a sort of karmic reserve. A person who steals and does no good for anyone is likely to slide into Chaotic Neutral over time.
But you really should be able to find some marketable skill. There are plenty of ways to use even trivial spells to make the bare minimum of money required to stay alive.
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2007-09-22, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
wow thanks everyone.. I'll just clarify a few points here to try and minimize some of the ifs.. I think I understand now though =P
1 - the guy is more rouge-ish, focus on dexterous skills and HUGE emphasis on slight of hand (started of as a street performer specializing in slight of hand card tricks)
2 - the guy failed as a street performer due mainly to his abysmal charisma
3 - the guy then found himself poorer than dirt and only really good at doing things with his hands that nobody noticed, so he started stealing to get by, although his conscience didn't really like it
4 - every time he stole, although from a random mark, he stole only what he needed to get by, and promised himself that when his chance came he would pay it back in some manner
5 - when his chance did come, he pounced on it and..... *start campaign*
there we go.. I think that covers itDon't think I don't know what you're not undoing
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2007-09-22, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-22, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
The thing about alignment is that it generally changes slowly over time when the character consistently takes actions that fall outside his current alignment. This is why a single act won't change your alignment unless it is made in the most dramatic and climactic of situations. These situations also produce the most extreme shifts in alignment (Lawful to Chaotic, skipping Neutral, for example).
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2007-09-22, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A question of Alignment
To be fair, Robin Hood stole from the rich because they were oppressing the poor.
I think that needs to be remembered when throwing Robin Hood around in CG terms.