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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ranis's Avatar

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    Default And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    So, by buddy and I have come to a disagreement about Wizards. When he plays a Wizard, he plays a straight blaster, going by the philosophy that if you can blow it up, then it can't hurt the party if it's dead. He disregards and disbelieves my philosophy that the truly good Wizard never has to blast a thing in order to win.

    So, we've set up the gauntlet, and he doesn't think that I can prove him wrong under level 10. So we agreed on level 5, and I'm determined to beat him. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can destroy his level 5 wizard without blasting it?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    I'd sy PvP isn't the best way to prove it. The -real- use of a wizard isn't against other party members. Get a collection of magic beasties and other fights. Have each wizard take a companion (same one for each wizard, ie, identical) and see how often they win and how much they have to expell to be efficient.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Most obvious spell that comes to mind : Charm Person. Other good spells would include :

    Tasha's Hideous Laughter
    Blindness/Deafness
    Ghoul Touch
    Hold Person

    All of these are available as a 5th level wizard.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Make it a gauntlet in the truest sense. A linear dungeon with various rooms with monsters, traps, and various other obstacles. Each of you goes through and whoever defeats the most rooms wins. So he wastes his spells on fire ball and whatnot and you can fly and block swinging blades and solve the problems strategically, you'll arguably get further.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Invisible wall between you and him. Act like he surprised you and have him cast fireball at you... hitting the wall and blowing himself up.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Level 5, eh? So, we're talking 3rd level spells, but mostly 2nd.


    Start off with Blindness/deafness. Take his eyes.

    Hit him with a Ray of Stupidity, and take his spells. You may need to use more than one.

    Place a 5 gallon jug of Alchemist's Fire on the ground, near the blind, int-drained wizard, and cast Misers Envy... Making him desire the alchemical fire inside the Jug.

    Laugh.
    Last edited by Bassetking; 2007-09-21 at 08:16 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Stinking Cloud is also a good idea. Fort save, which is a wizard's weakest, and it prevents him from casting spells.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Isn't Wall of Force like 7th level?

    And, also, anyone have good feat suggestions?
    Last edited by Ranis; 2007-09-21 at 08:19 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranis View Post
    Isn't Wall of Force like 7th level?
    Regular wall, just cast invisibility on it. Maybe a door... some obstacle is all I'm saying.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Win initiative. If you lose, then you're in trouble. But anyone losing initiative against a wizard is in trouble anyway - including him.

    Invisibility, & Fly should help against most of his attacks. Turn invisible, then keep moving in 3 dimensions.

    Conjuration specialist: cast Bands Of Steel (reflex save or immobilised), walk up with a scythe and cut his head off.

    Enchantment specialist: Use Deep Slumber & if he fails his will save (better than average chance unless he has pumped his save), he loses.

    Just plain annoying: Spectral hand + touch of idiocy. If you're lucky, he'll lose enough intelligence for his 3rd level spells to stop functioning, and at the least should make his save DCs suck.

    Sneaky: turn invisible, cast silence on a spell component, and then go drop it in his spell component pouch.

    5th level is a tough one, as 3rd level evocation spells are at the peak of their usefulness, but just be careful and win initiative.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Wizard vs. Wizard is always complex, and I don't claim to be an expert when it comes to dueling builds. But here are some spells for you to definitely keep in mind.

    Shield, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy: If you know he's going to be a blaster, and you don't have Evasion or anything protecting you, you'd better have some of these spells!

    Ray of Enfeeblement / Ray of Exhaustion: This combo, in the right order, can paralyze many Wizards. Have a Chill Touch in reserve just in case, maybe, to finish him off if he still has a point or two of Strength.

    Glitterdust: Counter for Invisibility, but there's always the off-chance that he'll actually fail a Will save and get blinded, too.

    Mirror Image: Lame vs. Fireball. But great vs. Acid Arrow or Scorching Ray.

    Invisibility: OK, probably not worth it, because most people know to counter Invisibility if they're going to be facing a wizard. But if your opponent is a blaster, he just might not think of this. And if he doesn't counter it, it will give you a lot of chances to buff yourself up!

    Cat's Grace / Fox's Cunning: Probably only worth it if your duel involves designated "pre-battle buffing rounds." But +2 Reflex save and +2 to your spells' DCs would both be great.

    Dispel Magic: Very flexible. Counter whatever spell he throws at you? Check. Kill his Fly spell so he's within reach of touch and battlefield control spells? Check.

    Stinking Cloud: Probably your single most powerful offensive option. Area effect. Fortitude save. Failed? Good, now you can't cast any spells for at least 2 turns. Ideally, follow up with Grease so he has trouble leaving the area of effect.

    Major Image: Get creative. Make him think you have spells you don't have. He only gets a Will save if he "interacts" with these spells.

    Vampiric Touch: When both combatants have only 24ish HP, dealing 2d6 damage to him and giving yourself 2d6 temporary HP isn't too bad. But you (or your familiar) will have to touch him.

    That's all for spells. For magic items, Pearls of Power are good. Energy Resistance items are good, but expensive. A Lesser Metamagic (Extend) Rod might be worth it.

    One more note: Level 5 Wizards can't do much to deal with grappling, except Fly away. It's risky, but you could try to outgrapple him and keep him from casting any decent spells! You have several options here:
    • Improved Familiar feat; grab a Formian Worker.
    • Summon Monster III; grab a Celetial Bison or Black Bear or Dire Badger or something.
    • Have a decent Strength, hit yourself with Enlarge Person, and wrastle 'im yourself!

    For any of these options, be sure to have a Bull's Strength spell for your grappler and a Reduce Person spell for your opponent (another Fortitude save spell).
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Grappling is an interesting idea; I remember reading something on here about the Grappler Wizard with an Octopus familiar, that might be an interesting strategy.

    I don't think that winning initiative will be all that much of a problem; a fifth level wizard has enough feats to drop two into Improved Initiative with another feat for utility; also, I can use that just silly broken Elf that gets +2 to Intelligence without a LA, does anyone remember which elf that is and what book it's in?
    Last edited by Ranis; 2007-09-21 at 08:51 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Gray Elf. Good ol'-fashioned core Monster Manual I.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Ah, yes. Cool. Also, Bands of Steel sounds AWESOME, what book is it in?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranis View Post
    Ah, yes. Cool. Also, Bands of Steel sounds AWESOME, what book is it in?
    Spell Compendium. Possibly Complete Arcane too.
    Last edited by Overlard; 2007-09-21 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Pump Dex and Int as high as possible. as possible. Get Spel Focus and Greater Spell Focus in necromancy.

    Win initiative and blind him.

    hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaistion (Twice if necessary). He should be paralyzed after that due to lack of Str.

    Once he's blind and paralyzed, you have won.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Um, Resist Energy: Fire, Lightning? Probably a good start.

    After that, see TLN's Guide.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Raolin_Fenix View Post
    Um, Resist Energy: Fire, Lightning? Probably a good start.

    After that, see TLN's Guide.
    A level five wizard against a level five wizard probably doesn't have ample time to buff themselves, blindness/deafness is the way to go round 1, just make sure to move after you blind them so they have trouble hitting you with a random fireball. If they where a low Will class you would have so many more options at this level, but one of the tricks to being a good wizard is to target their lowest save. Unfortunately there is a lack of good Reflex save or lose spells, with wall of stone being the only good core one I can think of.

    Taking on a blaster this low level with no time to prepare is very difficult as a single scorching ray could quite easily kill you, if you get a couple rounds to prepare you would be well served by displacement and invisibility, and if you have enough time, yes, resist fire.

    Also remind your friend that blasting is worst against monsters and such, which adventuring parties usually face. They tend to have a disproportional high number of hit dice (and thus hp) for their CR, which increases the value of save or die and save or lose and decreases the value of direct damage. If all enemies had a number of d4 hit dice equal to yours, blasting wouldn't be so bad.
    Last edited by TheOOB; 2007-09-21 at 11:49 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassetking View Post
    Place a 5 gallon jug of Alchemist's Fire on the ground, near the blind, int-drained wizard, and cast Misers Envy... Making him desire the alchemical fire inside the Jug.

    Laugh.
    How can he tell that the jug is there?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag View Post
    How can he tell that the jug is there?
    He can't.

    That's the beauty/ He can't see it, but will, by the text of Miser's Envy, immediately begin passionately, fervently, ignoring everything else (Like, say, someone stabbing him to death with a mouth-dart((1 damage per stab for humiliation!))). Should he actually manage to stumble onto the jar, and find himself capable of obtaining that for which he lusts...

    He blows himself sky-high, and dies in a hideous holocaust of chemical incendiary, coveting and cherishing that which is killing him.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    You know, two level 5 wizards dueling.... if one of them was a kobold....

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Just plain annoying: Spectral hand + touch of idiocy. If you're lucky, he'll lose enough intelligence for his 3rd level spells to stop functioning, and at the least should make his save DCs suck.
    You don't want to use Spectral Hand for this fight. All of the other guy's good spells are ranged anyway, so staying at a distance doesn't do you any good. And in fact, getting to melee range actually helps you, since it means that he can't safely hit you with a Fireball (probably his best bet for killing you).

    Also, you probably want to do best three out of five, or best four out of seven, or so. At low levels like this, dumb luck can play a big part in the outcome of a battle, and you don't want to have to put up with him in the chance that he wins. Make sure that you ask for "best of" before the first battle, so he can't just say you're a sore loser. This does mean that he'll have a chance to learn your tactics, but there's not much he can do to counter them with blasting spells. And if he uses a non-blasting spell to beat you, then he's just proven your point for you.

    Finally, if you do get a chance to cast Resist Elements, you might actually consider protecting against Acid instead of Fire. At those levels, concentration checks aren't a guarantee, so Acid Arrow becomes a severe annoyance for mages. You can't afford to get shut down for two rounds.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    You know, he isn't exactly wrong. The battlefield is controlled when the enemy is dead.
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Pump Dex and Int as high as possible. as possible. Get Spel Focus and Greater Spell Focus in necromancy.

    Win initiative and blind him.

    hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaistion (Twice if necessary). He should be paralyzed after that due to lack of Str.

    Once he's blind and paralyzed, you have won.
    I'd say pump Dex and Int as high as possible, get Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, win initiative and Stinking Cloud him. Then Grease him. Then Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion. Carry a scythe (even though you're not proficient with it) for a coup de grace.

    Stinking Cloud will have a save DC +1 compared to Blindness, and if it works, you won't need to get lucky for one turn while he blindly aims a Fireball at you (which could very well hit).
    Last edited by Draz74; 2007-09-22 at 12:44 AM.
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Ray of Stupidity from the spell compendium-1d4+1 INT damage, no save. Particularly if you're using the Elite array, this will shut down his high-level spells, and it's only second level. From the Spell Compendium.
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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    You will need a high Con score for this. Otherwise, his 5d6 fireball will likely be more than your 5d4 hit points.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    hmmmm, hold person, blindness, then ray of enfeblment until he cant move. Summon monster for a grappling monster so he cant cast.

    Its going to be tough at level 5 because you dont have a whole lot of spells and you will have low health so if you eat 2 fireballs its pretty much over.

    You have to either take away his actions (via spell like hold person or with grapple checks), remove his ability to use verbal/somatic components (so his spell choice is lessened), or remove his ability to target you (blindness or some such).

    If you dont do that he is just going to throw 2 fireballs, all his second level spells will be scorching rays, and his 1st level spells will be Magic missle. Since you wont have the HP to survive all of that, you got to lock him down.

    Another option is to cast invis, then summon about 50 things on him.
    Last edited by leperkhaun; 2007-09-22 at 07:45 AM.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Don't get too hung up on Ray Of Enfeeblement. It's a strength penalty, not damage, and doesn't stack with itself. A second application may not have any effect at all (if you roll lower than your first attack). If he has dumped Str (likely), then a good shot might bring his Str down to 1, but don't keep trying to do that when you could be harming him in other, more effective ways.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Win initiative. Turn invisible and get as close to him as possible, preferably close enough that he fireballs somewhere further and safer away. Proceed to use various tactics mentioned above, quite a few will work.

    You said it yourself, he is a blaster. His favorite spell of all time is probably fireball. It is also his most "powerful" spell for this fight, turning him on even more. You go invisible, so he immediately thinks he needs an area of effect to hit you, hence fireball. He probably feels dangerous and powerful, and thus expects you to fear him, and therefor, in his mind, he will probably expect you to try to sneak away to buff up or just avoid him, so he will try to guess which direction you sneak off in and fireball there. He has a low chance of guessing you will head right to him (preferably standing right next to him, but not in front of him, in case he actually figures it out) and wont want to fireball too close anyhow, as he fears his own mighty destructive blasting power as well. So there is one wasted max circle spell for him.

    Wizards win because they are smarter than their enemies.
    Last edited by daggaz; 2007-09-22 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: And the Gauntlet is Thrown

    Seriously, though, if you'll be a level 5 wizard, you could go for a Kobold Divine Minion/Master of Many Forms...

    That'll show him
    Last edited by Solo; 2007-09-22 at 10:59 AM.

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