Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Cespenar]

in ToME what difficulty level are people playing at?
I'm on normal so far, since it's still my first game I'm slowly playing through.

Normal/Adventure here as well, usually. I've managed to bring a Nightmare/Adventure Temporal Warden up to the midgame as well, though, so I kinda second the poster above somewhere who said Nightmare is not that far apart from Normal. The tough part would be the Adventure/Permadeath change.

I'm on Adventurer mode as well, but I'd already lost all my lives, mostly to vampire bosses in Last Hope Graveyard and in Daikara, which I always struggle a bit on. This character took down whatsisface who sends the elementals to attack Derth really easily, though--I was rather surprised when the quest done note came up when I thought I was halfway through the battle!

TBH, my final death was down to a misplay--I noticed I was low on life and hit Regenerate, even though I think I had a better instant Heal available. If I'd hit the heal I would have gained enough life to tank the cryomancer's next hit. Allowing myself to drop as low as 180 life in the first place was clearly a misplay in itself, though.

Next character is a Ghoul Berserker, and I have four new character classes to try out after that, so I suspect it'll be a while before I get as far as the Far East again. This time I'll follow the advice above and ignore the Prides until I'm a bit higher level.

I had a death with Celia as well, so, yeah, Graveyard can be a pain. And Daikara is just notorious.

[factotum]

I had a death with Celia as well, so, yeah, Graveyard can be a pain. And Daikara is just notorious.

I've never died to Celia herself (although I only have three examples to draw from here!). Some of the random bosses who spawn while you're clearing the side rooms are far tougher than she is, IMHO.

[Corlindale]

That's usually my route too - go East, immediately do the quests to go back West, do backup bosses and the elf-mummies dungeon, head back East and start clearing Prides.

I like to do the non-Pride stuff in the East before starting on the questline to get back - mostly because I'm still a bit terrified of the Vor Armory, and the non-Pride dungeons (Spider, shadow, underwater) usually aren't that tricky. Although I ran into a hilarious situation against my Shadow Clone with my Oozemancer - we both had so much damage mitigation and regeneration going on that none of use could really hurt the other, so eventually I just Recalled out of there to avoid an eternal stalemate.

[Cespenar]

I've never died to Celia herself (although I only have three examples to draw from here!). Some of the random bosses who spawn while you're clearing the side rooms are far tougher than she is, IMHO.

Well, it was a classic ToME death, in which both she and her minions did like a total of 3-4 criticals in one turn. It was pretty silly when I promptly returned from the afterlife and beat her easily with 90-95% HP.

I like to do the non-Pride stuff in the East before starting on the questline to get back - mostly because I'm still a bit terrified of the Vor Armory, and the non-Pride dungeons (Spider, shadow, underwater) usually aren't that tricky. Although I ran into a hilarious situation against my Shadow Clone with my Oozemancer - we both had so much damage mitigation and regeneration going on that none of use could really hurt the other, so eventually I just Recalled out of there to avoid an eternal stalemate.

Vor Armory is not that hard if you don't open the vault, in my opinion. Easier than the Prides for sure. But yeah, it's probably best left for after the backup bosses.

[factotum]

I actually did the Armory before the Pride and I found it rather easier (and yes, I did open the vault)--no idea why, because there were certainly more nasties in there.

[Sian]

Personally when I played ToME, i always played on either normal/permadeath or nightmare/permadeath

[Derjuin]

in ToME what difficulty level are people playing at?
I'm on normal so far, since it's still my first game I'm slowly playing through.

Insane/Roguelike or Madness/Roguelike. Mostly dependent on class; I'll try Doomed or Archmage on Insane, Paradox Mage or Possessor on Madness.

There's a hecc of a lot of deaths.

[Anteros]

I always make a trip back to fight the Drakes once I'm capped out. It's a nice bonus challenge.

[Cespenar]

Insane/Roguelike or Madness/Roguelike. Mostly dependent on class; I'll try Doomed or Archmage on Insane, Paradox Mage or Possessor on Madness.

There's a hecc of a lot of deaths.

Wowsers. Does Madness/RL come close to ADOM-level of difficulty, or is it even tougher?

[zlefin]

finally died once; got too greedy fighting the Master in dreadfell. was using stair cheese but killed one of the summoned grunts and then took too much damage from a bunch of casters in one turn so I couldn't run in time. stair cheese is cheesy, I think I'll use it less.

I probably should've heeded the level notices and waited until i was a bit higher level. didn't really think about it much, but I guess the higher levels of dreadfell really do have tougher monsters. so the boss had 8 levels advantage on me, which was a bit too much. though I guess bosses tend to have extra levels anyways. I Was level 22.

[tyckspoon]

finally died once; got too greedy fighting the Master in dreadfell. was using stair cheese but killed one of the summoned grunts and then took too much damage from a bunch of casters in one turn so I couldn't run in time. stair cheese is cheesy, I think I'll use it less.

I probably should've heeded the level notices and waited until i was a bit higher level. didn't really think about it much, but I guess the higher levels of dreadfell really do have tougher monsters. so the boss had 8 levels advantage on me, which was a bit too much.

The Master (and really a lot of enemies, considering how many Arcane-powered spellcaster enemies there are) are a lot easier to handle if you have access to Disperse Magic - you can turn off his Arcane-based sustains, which really takes the teeth out of his summoning because he no longer has the necromancer aura to keep his minions up. It's available as an active use ability on gloves, and if you're not going Antimagic it's one of the items I do recommend you keep an eye out for and hold on to as a swap.

[Anteros]

Wowsers. Does Madness/RL come close to ADOM-level of difficulty, or is it even tougher?

It's basically impossible except for certain builds that counter the strengths of the difficulty. At least in my experience.

[factotum]

Oh, ToME. Every time I try to really like you, you come up with the logical equivalent of kicking me in the nethers. I'm playing a Ghoul, right? An undead creature powered by dark magic. Why on Earth can I still die from suffocation when being in water? Especially since you can get magical belts whose whole schtick is "The wearer is treated as an undead and don't need to breathe"! And no, it's nothing to do with the cloak that makes me appear human, because I tried taking it off and the same thing happened (only that time I didn't die because I was prepared and stayed close enough to land to get back once I started taking damage).

On the plus side, I have now unlocked the Skirmisher class (although I'm still not sure how I did that) and the Yeek race (rescued the Yeek from the Ruined Halfling Complex), and since I'm playing Adventurer I still have a few lives to play with.

[tyckspoon]

Ghouls are like only half-undead. They're considered one of the weaker races because of that - you get all the downsides of being undead, miss one of the (overall minor but useful) perks of it, and get to deal with universal speed reduction on top of it, which is not great. If you don't need to breath at all you will, IIRC, simply not see the air bar when you enter water.

IIRC Skirmisher is unlocked by hitting something that has the Counterstrike debuff on it at range - you might have fired a wand at something after blocking a ranged weapon, or maybe trying to do sling + shield Archer. I got it with a Sun Paladin, which has options for sword-and-shield that make it work kind of like a magical Bulwark - blocked an attack and then hit something with one of the Paladin's spells.

[Derjuin]

Wowsers. Does Madness/RL come close to ADOM-level of difficulty, or is it even tougher?

It's basically impossible except for certain builds that counter the strengths of the difficulty. At least in my experience.

Essentially this. The only class that could straight-up "beat" madness was an adventurer build that got Unstoppable nerfed and probably can't do it anymore, plus possessor since that class's strengths scale with the difficulty you're on (but it's still going to be incredibly hard).

Wildfire Archmage, Temporal Warden (armed with two Mercy daggers) and Paradox Mage theoretically have the damage avoidance and consistency to make it through madness, too, but it's a huge challenge nonetheless.

RE: Adom's difficulty, it's more about the bajillion ways you can die. A rust monster might eat your weapon, or you might trigger a trap that drops a 50-damage stone block on your 9-hp wizard's head. You can starve, drown, have all your items destroyed, be slain instantly (such as by a death ray or monster special ability) etc. ToME's Madness difficulty is more about huge number inflation in almost every way - more bosses, more enemy skills, more enemy levels/hp/damage/defenses...

[Anteros]

Essentially this. The only class that could straight-up "beat" madness was an adventurer build that got Unstoppable nerfed and probably can't do it anymore, plus possessor since that class's strengths scale with the difficulty you're on (but it's still going to be incredibly hard).

Wildfire Archmage, Temporal Warden (armed with two Mercy daggers) and Paradox Mage theoretically have the damage avoidance and consistency to make it through madness, too, but it's a huge challenge nonetheless.

RE: Adom's difficulty, it's more about the bajillion ways you can die. A rust monster might eat your weapon, or you might trigger a trap that drops a 50-damage stone block on your 9-hp wizard's head. You can starve, drown, have all your items destroyed, be slain instantly (such as by a death ray or monster special ability) etc. ToME's Madness difficulty is more about huge number inflation in almost every way - more bosses, more enemy skills, more enemy levels/hp/damage/defenses...

How did they nerf unstoppable? I didn't even notice that it was nerfed. It's still extremely strong.

[Thrantar]

Unstoppable now has a fixed cooldown, and is an other typed buff, so non-extendable.
In ordinary use cases, Unstoppable is effectively unchanged, except on Shalore.
In odd synergy laden adventurer builds, Unstoppable no longer has 100% uptime.

[factotum]

IIRC Skirmisher is unlocked by hitting something that has the Counterstrike debuff on it at range - you might have fired a wand at something after blocking a ranged weapon

I'm playing a Berserker, and I didn't use any wands or even the mostly useless heat beam rune I have.

[Cespenar]

It's basically impossible except for certain builds that counter the strengths of the difficulty. At least in my experience.

Essentially this. The only class that could straight-up "beat" madness was an adventurer build that got Unstoppable nerfed and probably can't do it anymore, plus possessor since that class's strengths scale with the difficulty you're on (but it's still going to be incredibly hard).

Wildfire Archmage, Temporal Warden (armed with two Mercy daggers) and Paradox Mage theoretically have the damage avoidance and consistency to make it through madness, too, but it's a huge challenge nonetheless.

RE: Adom's difficulty, it's more about the bajillion ways you can die. A rust monster might eat your weapon, or you might trigger a trap that drops a 50-damage stone block on your 9-hp wizard's head. You can starve, drown, have all your items destroyed, be slain instantly (such as by a death ray or monster special ability) etc. ToME's Madness difficulty is more about huge number inflation in almost every way - more bosses, more enemy skills, more enemy levels/hp/damage/defenses...

Okay, I see. I'll probably continue sticking with Adventure mode then, I guess, since half the fun of ToME is IMHO pulling off your builds like a superhero.

[Anteros]

Okay, I see. I'll probably continue sticking with Adventure mode then, I guess, since half the fun of ToME is IMHO pulling off your builds like a superhero.

It's madness that requires specific builds. You can get by on roguelike with any build just like any roguelike game. I do agree that making different build a work is the best part of tome. It's why the adventurer class is my favorite despite its potential to completely break the game.

[factotum]

Orcs are beginning to annoy me. My level 23 Ghoul Berserker was having no trouble at all on level 8 of Dreadfell until an Orc Corruptor showed up. I got blinded and then killed in two hits, so fast that I didn't even hit my emergency teleport rune to try and escape. I should have paid more attention to just how much damage that Corruptor was doing.

So, guess Yeek is the next race to try...

[zlefin]

playing ToME more.
went around finishing up every otehr spot and side area I could before going back to face the master, and faced all the special areas in his tower to gather more levels/items (not that I think I got any items from them). a tough fight, but the extra 4 levels I'd gotten (lvl 26 now) were enough to take on the master, was close for awhile and had to flee once, but ultimately took him down.

Spoiler: spoiler

Show

that ambush as I left the tower was quite a surprise and looked scary. fortunately I'm very tough vs physical attacks so with some running around i was able to wear them down.

how many different chars do people run at once? I haven't tried starting any other chars yet; I'm probably gonna keep going with my first one until he can't go any further.

one thing I find weird is how I've unlocked several ne wclasses/races but don't get to play any of them yet since I'm still running char 1.

[Kaptin Keen]

There is much I do not know about ADOM. For instance:

Elf guy is now level 14, past Dwarf Town, and has maxed all his abilities except learning and willpower. Now, learning and willpower are his main stats (for casting at least), and they still have plenty room to grow. I'm more concerned with strength and toughness.

If I pay for Garth training, will that increase the max? Or am I reduced to potions of potential X? Or what do I do?

Bonus question: I just handed in Thrundarr's first quest - and he gave me the same one again, instead of the second one. What's that all about? I picked up the graveyard quests too, will I have to turn in those too, before getting the next one?

[Derjuin]

There is much I do not know about ADOM. For instance:

Elf guy is now level 14, past Dwarf Town, and has maxed all his abilities except learning and willpower. Now, learning and willpower are his main stats (for casting at least), and they still have plenty room to grow. I'm more concerned with strength and toughness.

If I pay for Garth training, will that increase the max? Or am I reduced to potions of potential X? Or what do I do?

Bonus question: I just handed in Thrundarr's first quest - and he gave me the same one again, instead of the second one. What's that all about? I picked up the graveyard quests too, will I have to turn in those too, before getting the next one?

If you dive into the Dwarven Halls or the Animated Forest before completing the first quest, he just gives you a copy of it (with no reward, iirc). Same will happen if you become the arena champion before he assigns the quest to do so.

AFAIK: The only way to increase maximums are with potential potions or potions of <stat> or gain attributes. I believe herbs and training no longer train maxes, but I could be wrong.

[Kaptin Keen]

If you dive into the Dwarven Halls or the Animated Forest before completing the first quest, he just gives you a copy of it (with no reward, iirc). Same will happen if you become the arena champion before he assigns the quest to do so.

Oh, right - of course. I didn't find the statue, so I kinda just went past Animated Forest searching for it. Found it on my way back, of course. Bah! =)

[Silfir]

I don't think Garth increases potentials anymore. You can still go past your potentials with stat potions (obviously the potential-increasing ones, but the regular ones and blessed potions of gain attributes work as well) and the corpses of particularly powerful creatures. (I.e. ogres won't suffice anymore, you've gotta eat fire giant kings and molochs and such. I'm not certain about wights, vampires etc.)

It used to be that no matter what race and class you picked, as soon as you got ready access to morgia roots your Toughness and Willpower would default to 25 anyway, and your Strength would be 18 just from carrying lots of large rations, since potentials were polite suggestions more than anything. Now elf wizards stay glass cannons for a little while longer.

Thrundarr is kinda getting up in years. His second quest is supposed to be to explore what's past the Animated Forest. If you show up telling him about the Forest he gets flustered and embarrassed and covers it up by assigning you the first quest all over again, for a different monster. He's also kind of a vindictive jerk, so he won't even give you a reward the second time around.

In other words - don't actually enter the Animated Forest (or cross the Dwarven Halls) until you've been assigned the quest to explore past it. You can safely explore up to finding the two down staircases just above the Animated Forest level, but don't go down the stairs, since entering the Forest is the trigger that ruins everything.

For the same reason, don't actually become the champion of the arena unless Thrundarr specifically asks you to. He'll do the same thing all over again.

[Cespenar]

Thrundarr is kinda getting up in years. His second quest is supposed to be to explore what's past the Animated Forest. If you show up telling him about the Forest he gets flustered and embarrassed and covers it up by assigning you the first quest all over again, for a different monster. He's also kind of a vindictive jerk, so he won't even give you a reward the second time around.

That's a nice RP explanation, actually.

[Kaptin Keen]

Playing a wizard is funny. I was sure going to the pyramid would be the end of me, but it was actually fairly simple. Mummies are fairly susceptible to fire, so maybe I should have seen that coming. But my stats still feel too low - I'm level 16, and I have just 93 HP. An ogre - just an ordinary ogre - critted me and brought me to single digit health, from full. So now I'm going random dungeons in the hopes of being able to gear up.

I have Rolf's axe and shield, which feels nice, but I'm actually trained in polearms (spear, specifically), and I'm hugely unsure whether it's worth the investment of training a new weapon at the crawling rate of a wizard. I have the elemental gauntlets, and I have the ancient mummy wrapping (which I never used on Troll Guy, and cannot imagine using on Elf Guy).

And I'm running out of castings of magic missile and acid bolt. Gimme more books, goddammit!

It's hard to imagine doing the more difficult stuff that comes after dwarf town. Like, how is a wizard going to do Tower of Eternal Flame? I ran into a dragon - just a normal, ancient black. I couldn't touch it, it straight up resisted everything I threw at it, and .. well, I had to teleport away from it, it was more than a little miraculous I didn't die. It's still there, in the Dwarf Halls, waiting for me. Bloody thing.

Oh, and the goddamned cats. After seeing just how hard the Cat Lord gets, I'm trying to avoid killing any. Unsure whether I've succeeded or not, but at least he wont be quite as strong.

[factotum]

Playing an Anorithil in ToME and I'm kinda liking it--having two separate power bars, one of which gets boosted when you use your skills and one of which is decreased, makes for an interesting playstyle. I have two powerful shields (Barrier skill and a reflective infusion) so survivability is pretty good, although damage output isn't up with the Paradox Mage.

I've also opened up the Conclave Vault, so I have a chance of unlocking the Ogre race--going to leave that until I'm a bit higher level (currently level 21).

[Cespenar]

Playing a wizard is funny. I was sure going to the pyramid would be the end of me, but it was actually fairly simple. Mummies are fairly susceptible to fire, so maybe I should have seen that coming. But my stats still feel too low - I'm level 16, and I have just 93 HP. An ogre - just an ordinary ogre - critted me and brought me to single digit health, from full. So now I'm going random dungeons in the hopes of being able to gear up.

I have Rolf's axe and shield, which feels nice, but I'm actually trained in polearms (spear, specifically), and I'm hugely unsure whether it's worth the investment of training a new weapon at the crawling rate of a wizard. I have the elemental gauntlets, and I have the ancient mummy wrapping (which I never used on Troll Guy, and cannot imagine using on Elf Guy).

And I'm running out of castings of magic missile and acid bolt. Gimme more books, goddammit!

It's hard to imagine doing the more difficult stuff that comes after dwarf town. Like, how is a wizard going to do Tower of Eternal Flame? I ran into a dragon - just a normal, ancient black. I couldn't touch it, it straight up resisted everything I threw at it, and .. well, I had to teleport away from it, it was more than a little miraculous I didn't die. It's still there, in the Dwarf Halls, waiting for me. Bloody thing.

Oh, and the goddamned cats. After seeing just how hard the Cat Lord gets, I'm trying to avoid killing any. Unsure whether I've succeeded or not, but at least he wont be quite as strong.

Normally you'd be able to train your Toughness with morgia roots by that point.

Don't feel let down by critters shrugging off your bolts either. Just throw more at them, and they'll eventually stick. Assuming you're using the right element. Also, your spell effectiveness counts, of course.