Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Kaptin Keen]

Many interesting things may one find in the game of Adom. Elf guy, my current wizard, has stumbled upon a Wonderous Figurine shop, which sells, among others, a Figurine of Shadow Worm, one of Dark Elven Priestess, and one of Moloch.

I just sacrificed all my gold, so I can't buy any of this - but should I buy one of these, and if so, which one? =)

[Sian]

Many interesting things may one find in the game of Adom. Elf guy, my current wizard, has stumbled upon a Wonderous Figurine shop, which sells, among others, a Figurine of Shadow Worm, one of Dark Elven Priestess, and one of Moloch.

I just sacrificed all my gold, so I can't buy any of this - but should I buy one of these, and if so, which one? =)

Nah ... Wonderous figurines are very rarely worth it ...

[Kaptin Keen]

Nah ... Wonderous figurines are very rarely worth it ...

But I could have a pet shadow worm ... oO

Nah, companions have not generally been much use to me. It's generally a question of time when they go from being a fairly pointless hassle to lug about, to being an actual threat.

In other news, neither Guthalag nor Thrundarr gave me any corruption reduction. Unsure why?! But now I need it, and I'm not really sure what to do about that.

[Silfir]

Guth'Alak will give you cure corruption potions if you bring him the corpses of corrupted beings, such as Keethrax's black druid corpses, or any of the orb guardians. Holy water, Remove Curse or a high Cooking skill can help keep the corpse fresh while you lug it over there.

There also is a scroll of corruption removal in the hidden mountain village that you have to traverse the UD to get to. You essentially need controlled teleportation to get to it, though. If you are of Neutral alignment, use that same source of controlled teleportation to chance the dwarven mystic.

Those are the sources of corruption removal that are somewhat easy to get to in the early stages. You can also find some in the bug temple, but killer bugs are no joke. Apparently the ice queen rewards you with potions for her first quest.

Which corruption did you get, anyway?

[Kaptin Keen]

Guth'Alak will give you cure corruption potions if you bring him the corpses of corrupted beings, such as Keethrax's black druid corpses, or any of the orb guardians. Holy water, Remove Curse or a high Cooking skill can help keep the corpse fresh while you lug it over there.

There also is a scroll of corruption removal in the hidden mountain village that you have to traverse the UD to get to. You essentially need controlled teleportation to get to it, though. If you are of Neutral alignment, use that same source of controlled teleportation to chance the dwarven mystic.

Those are the sources of corruption removal that are somewhat easy to get to in the early stages. You can also find some in the bug temple, but killer bugs are no joke. Apparently the ice queen rewards you with potions for her first quest.

Which corruption did you get, anyway?

You know - I'm almost certain casters have a +90% of Living Mana Battery? I have zero actual evidence of that other than my own limited experience with casters. But I do save scum extensively when testing stuff I still don't know about, and I feel there's a robust pattern there.

So yea. Mana battery.

[Silfir]

Mana battery is annoying, but you can live with it for a while, especially if you play a caster type and cast spells of your own. (After all, mana battery increases power point capacity!) Just don't pick up any glowing wands unless you are fine with getting exactly one wish out of them.

The order and type of corruptions are actually determined on character creation, so if you're getting your first corruption with the same PC many times over (such as by savescumming), it will be the same corruption every time. After curing mana battery with a potion or scroll, you'll get something different later.

By the way, didn't you get to the end of the game once before already? High time you stopped savescumming altogether. It'll lead to bad habits getting increasingly difficult to recognize and shake off.

[Kaptin Keen]

By the way, didn't you get to the end of the game once before already? High time you stopped savescumming altogether. It'll lead to bad habits getting increasingly difficult to recognize and shake off.

I did. I doubt I'll ever stop save scumming, I consider forcing me to play without a backup to be the bad habit - which I'm doing extra work to circumnavigate. And there's still tons of things I need to test, before I feel confident enough to not save scum. At least I don't do it to get RNG results I like.

[Silfir]

I did. I doubt I'll ever stop save scumming, I consider forcing me to play without a backup to be the bad habit - which I'm doing extra work to circumnavigate. And there's still tons of things I need to test, before I feel confident enough to not save scum. At least I don't do it to get RNG results I like.

You're never going to gain the confidence not to save scum by save scumming.

It's like training wheels. Eventually they have to come off so you can learn how to ride a bike properly.

There's nothing wrong with making backups in case of actual program crashes (though the game should be doing that automatically these days), that's not save scumming.

[Anteros]

You're never going to gain the confidence not to save scum by save scumming.

It's like training wheels. Eventually they have to come off so you can learn how to ride a bike properly.

There's nothing wrong with making backups in case of actual program crashes (though the game should be doing that automatically these days), that's not save scumming.

There's also nothing wrong with playing a single player game however they want to play. If someone wants to save scum, there's no good reason to try to stop them.

There's a reason that saving is a thing in 99.9999% of games after all.

[Kaptin Keen]

You're never going to gain the confidence not to save scum by save scumming.

It's like training wheels. Eventually they have to come off so you can learn how to ride a bike properly.

There's nothing wrong with making backups in case of actual program crashes (though the game should be doing that automatically these days), that's not save scumming.

Right now I'm in the ... um, the dangerous one of the random dungeons. I've never been here before, I have no idea whether my level 21 wizard will survive it. So I've made a back-up. I wouldn't make a backup for something I felt confident about - but I'm quite unwilling to start over, building back up to level 21, because the game refuses me a save file :p

[factotum]

So, I decided to try out a Dwarf Wyrmic because I thought I could unlock Stone Warden that way--unfortunately, I haven't unlocked the Undead Drake skill tree which is a pre-requisite of that! I decided to play through anyway, and I actually had a lot of fun until I died to the Grand Corruptor in the Mark of the Spellblaze at level 27. That was the character's main bugbear, in fact: single very tough bosses. A mass of weaker creatures go down in seconds to the lightning and ice breath. I guess it didn't help that I chose to make this my first attempt at an anti-magic run, so I had no teleports or shields, just lots of healing.

Still, killed the Master again so I've unlocked Skeleton as a race now, will probably go with one of those next and see what happens.

[tyckspoon]

So, I decided to try out a Dwarf Wyrmic because I thought I could unlock Stone Warden that way--unfortunately, I haven't unlocked the Undead Drake skill tree which is a pre-requisite of that! I decided to play through anyway, and I actually had a lot of fun until I died to the Grand Corruptor in the Mark of the Spellblaze at level 27. That was the character's main bugbear, in fact: single very tough bosses. A mass of weaker creatures go down in seconds to the lightning and ice breath. I guess it didn't help that I chose to make this my first attempt at an anti-magic run, so I had no teleports or shields, just lots of healing.

A good Movement infusion can get you almost as far away as Teleporting, and Wyrmics can get a talent called.. I want to say Lightning Speed which has a really similar effect (and also a really obnoxious default screen filter when you're using it.) The main downside is you don't get to instantly break line of sight like you will by teleporting away. The plus side is Move infusions have a really really useful side effect - after the increased movespeed ends you get several turns of stun immunity. They're often used at the start of a fight just to trigger that. The closest equivalent to a shield would be a Heroism infusion, which gives effective extended health by way of giving you 'doesn't actually die until -X negative health.' Also increases your stats, so that's nice. With some luck you can find one early in Zigur, Last Hope, or Angolwen's infusion shops.

Edit: Skeletons are awesome, especially if you're playing a class with its own inherent shields to chain with the racial one. Shields for daaaaaays.

[factotum]

Yeah, I had Lightning Speed, but that doesn't help when the guy has done his usual trick of teleporting you into Hell!

[Kaptin Keen]

Here's a thing that annoys me in Adom more than it propably should: Troll guy found a ton of blankets. I'm not kidding if I say he had at least 5 water proof blankets, and 5 fire proof blankets. Elf guy has precisely none.

And I refuse to believe that's just how the RNG pans out.

Another example, Elf guy has found precisely zero pools, whole Troll guy found so many it grew trivial - 'oh look, another pool - let me not even consider drinking from it, because I don't really like RNG anyways.'

Btw, only reason I'm annoyed right now is that I've reached Khelavaster, and I feel I can't just let him die. So now I need a wish - or an amulet of life saving. Troll guy didn't have this issue, because - lo and behold - he just randomly picked up the amulet, and also had two rings of jinni summoning.

So ... for that reason, Elf guy is in Darkforge, to find some pools and hope for a wish, and he doesn't have a blanket so he can safely cross the water blocking access to the pools. And he can't simply teleport across, because .. Darkforge.

Oh, and I tried going back to SMC to get a blanket there. Yea. Going into SMC at level 20 didn't work out so well =)

[zlefin]

in ToME, to what extent do enemies' levels adjust to your own?
I know that patrols seem to automatically adjust to match you, without any limit.
I'm not so clear on what the limits are on zones you enter though; in terms of minimum levels, maximum levels, and the autoadjustment formula. my impression is that it's set once you enter a level (i.e. it sets the monsters levels' then). but deeper levels of a dungeon can each have their own setting.

[Derjuin]

Here's a thing that annoys me in Adom more than it propably should: Troll guy found a ton of blankets. I'm not kidding if I say he had at least 5 water proof blankets, and 5 fire proof blankets. Elf guy has precisely none.

And I refuse to believe that's just how the RNG pans out.

Another example, Elf guy has found precisely zero pools, whole Troll guy found so many it grew trivial - 'oh look, another pool - let me not even consider drinking from it, because I don't really like RNG anyways.'

Btw, only reason I'm annoyed right now is that I've reached Khelavaster, and I feel I can't just let him die. So now I need a wish - or an amulet of life saving. Troll guy didn't have this issue, because - lo and behold - he just randomly picked up the amulet, and also had two rings of jinni summoning.

So ... for that reason, Elf guy is in Darkforge, to find some pools and hope for a wish, and he doesn't have a blanket so he can safely cross the water blocking access to the pools. And he can't simply teleport across, because .. Darkforge.

Oh, and I tried going back to SMC to get a blanket there. Yea. Going into SMC at level 20 didn't work out so well =)

Do you have any wands of cold or knowledge of the frostbolt spell, or access to the Bridge Building skill? All three will let you cross without water danger, just be careful if you're crossing ice with large burdens. I think it's over 2000 stones' worth of weight will break it.

Also, depending on your class and alignment, Thrundarr's fourth quest can reward a fireproof and waterproof blanket, both blessed.

If you expend all your sane options there's always grinding the ID for stuff, but that can get boring really quickly and could be somewhat dangerous. You'd either have to farm levels 4-6, or 22-24 for either the Amulet itself (4-6) or a RoDS (22-24). If you have treasure hunter and pickpocketing at a decent enough level it might not take TOO too long.

[tyckspoon]

in ToME, to what extent do enemies' levels adjust to your own?
I know that patrols seem to automatically adjust to match you, without any limit.
I'm not so clear on what the limits are on zones you enter though; in terms of minimum levels, maximum levels, and the autoadjustment formula. my impression is that it's set once you enter a level (i.e. it sets the monsters levels' then). but deeper levels of a dungeon can each have their own setting.

The minimum level is what's shown on the map as 'recommended level' for the zone, I think. The maximums aren't shown anywhere, but I think they've been dug out of the code - you could probably look them up on the ToME wiki. For most purposes monster level is relatively meaningless - it has its biggest impact on boss-types, because it means they get more points to put in their talents/more talents. The other general impact is in monster types that spawn; the most obvious example is Lake Nur. If you manage to get in there very early on, a lot of the enemies that spawn will be animals and trees and stuff, the same kind of things that you'll see in lower-level Old Forest. If you go into it at higher levels, everything is horrors instead.

[factotum]

Well, so far up to level 18 with my skeleton Bulwark and at this point it's a breeze--between my shield and my health I have about 1600 life, and very few things can even hurt me much. Plus, I have a lucky find equipped, a tier 4 shield with ridiculous damage on it, so I've seen Assault crit for nearly 1000 damage--even bosses melt pretty quickly under that sort of attack. So, if this goes as it usually does, I fully expect to die from overconfidence sometime in the next couple of levels. I do need to do the Mark of the Spellblaze in order to corrupt the Heart of the Sandworm Queen (it's pretty useless to me as it is now), so that'll no doubt be fun.

[EDIT] OK, I am really rather impressed with this guy. I haven't died once since starting the game, and I just killed the Grand Corruptor in the Mark of the Spellblaze at level 23! I also successfully killed every single orc in the plot ambush--admittedly the previous Wyrmic did as well, but he did it using massive AOE attacks, whereas skelly boy had to basically tank all their attacks while killing them one at a time!

[Silfir]

Crossing a patch of water without a waterproof blanket is as simple as using extended drop commands - drop all scrolls and and books and 99% of water-vulnerable items are covered.

Incidentally, yes, of course that's how the RNG pans out sometimes. (Though there are usually some guaranteed blankets generated via quest, and one in the Small Cave.)

[factotum]

Died twice in the Far East at level 27 now, once in the Underwater Cave and once in the Vor Armoury. Need to get back to Maj'Eyal to do a bit more levelling before I'm comfortable going after the Prides, so Briagh's Lair is next...

[Kaptin Keen]

Do you have any wands of cold or knowledge of the frostbolt spell, or access to the Bridge Building skill? All three will let you cross without water danger, just be careful if you're crossing ice with large burdens. I think it's over 2000 stones' worth of weight will break it.

Also, depending on your class and alignment, Thrundarr's fourth quest can reward a fireproof and waterproof blanket, both blessed.

If you expend all your sane options there's always grinding the ID for stuff, but that can get boring really quickly and could be somewhat dangerous. You'd either have to farm levels 4-6, or 22-24 for either the Amulet itself (4-6) or a RoDS (22-24). If you have treasure hunter and pickpocketing at a decent enough level it might not take TOO too long.

Oh, I have plenty of cold spells, I just happen to also have a pretty heavy backpack. Of course I could drop some stuff, but that works best if what I drop is my armor, which isn't a great plan, overall.

I've done Thrundarr's quests, and ... well, didn't get those =)

The ID is what I've been considering - and knowing what levels to look on is useful, so thanks for that.

Crossing a patch of water without a waterproof blanket is as simple as using extended drop commands - drop all scrolls and and books and 99% of water-vulnerable items are covered.

Yes, I know. And in the case of Darkforge, that's what I'll do. It's not ideal for, say the water cave.

Incidentally, yes, of course that's how the RNG pans out sometimes. (Though there are usually some guaranteed blankets generated via quest, and one in the Small Cave.)

It's actually not the way RNG works. If you get an unexpected result one or twice or maybe even three times in a row - that might be how RNG just works out sometimes.

If you get an unexpected result ten times in a row, that's far more likely to be a pattern - either intended or unintended. And personally I have very little doubt a long list of patterns have been built in. I'll concede it might be confirmation bias, I just don't think so.

[Gnoman]

Depending on how the RNG is designed and precisely how treasure is generated, it could easily be a case of "if this seed is used, a lot of blankets will be generated, but if this seed is used, a lot of something else will be generated".

[zlefin]

in ToME, I've never tried using the online features to be connected and chat with other players while playing and such. how are they? what's the community like?

gl factotum, 27 does sound a bit low for the east; iirc it being lower than the minimum level of many of the places.

though I do wonder how much of a difference levels make, since enemies tend to match your level (aside from the minimum/maximums).

[Kaptin Keen]

Depending on how the RNG is designed and precisely how treasure is generated, it could easily be a case of "if this seed is used, a lot of blankets will be generated, but if this seed is used, a lot of something else will be generated".

Yes - as I said, intended or unintended. I'm pretty certain race and class affect how common certain things are - like pools, and blankets. Spellbooks are another, there's no question that casters see more drops.

[factotum]

gl factotum, 27 does sound a bit low for the east; iirc it being lower than the minimum level of many of the places.

I had literally run out of stuff to do in the West, apart from the old Elven ruins which are a minimum level 35 zone. Skeletons get a pretty massive XP penalty, is the main problem, I think. Decided going East was less risky than using the fortress Farportal.

[Anteros]

in ToME, I've never tried using the online features to be connected and chat with other players while playing and such. how are they? what's the community like?

gl factotum, 27 does sound a bit low for the east; iirc it being lower than the minimum level of many of the places.

though I do wonder how much of a difference levels make, since enemies tend to match your level (aside from the minimum/maximums).

There's basically no community at all. Every now and then someone will ask a question, but I've never seen an actual conversation. It's mostly just notifications about player deaths and achievements.

Every now and then you'll get a random "present" in the form of an item or a buff if you're online. I personally dislike these since they arbitrarily make the game easier, but they can be amusing and you can always cancel them or throw the item away.

For what it's worth, I don't think the Prides are particularly difficult. You don't need to be level capped for them or anything. By the time you get east your build should be online and level doesn't mean much anyway in my opinion.

[tyckspoon]

Died twice in the Far East at level 27 now, once in the Underwater Cave and once in the Vor Armoury. Need to get back to Maj'Eyal to do a bit more levelling before I'm comfortable going after the Prides, so Briagh's Lair is next...

Vor Armory tends to cause a death or two for me, too - something like 3/4 of the enemies are casters, which makes it hard to properly contain the fights with them Phase Dooring all over the place and filling rooms with fields of fire and/or ice. Trying to fight in the doorway of the main vault/treasure room with the boss getting in your face and all of his support casters hitting you is nigh suicidal, but even if you retreat to one of the side rooms and try to funnel them through a chokepoint the fact that most of them are ranged and can teleport means you're still having to deal with like half of them attacking you anyways.

[zlefin]

finally met my final death in ToME, fighting against the final boss. though from my perspective I'm calling it a win, since in my opinion the final area is poorly structured, and if it was done properly I'd have won. I see no reason to hold poor game design against myself.

reaching a point where the enemies get to keep getting stronger, while I'm prohibited from gaining further levels seems wrong. especially when it's also the case that your gear doesn't get any better in the final area either (on average, you might find like, one item that's a minor improvement). also silly to have a long end area when there's nothing to gain from the fights; didn't bother with the vaults in there as they were dangerous, and again there's nothing to gain from doing them other than bragging rights.

[tyckspoon]

finally met my final death in ToME, fighting against the final boss. though from my perspective I'm calling it a win, since in my opinion the final area is poorly structured, and if it was done properly I'd have won. I see no reason to hold poor game design against myself.

reaching a point where the enemies get to keep getting stronger, while I'm prohibited from gaining further levels seems wrong. especially when it's also the case that your gear doesn't get any better in the final area either (on average, you might find like, one item that's a minor improvement). also silly to have a long end area when there's nothing to gain from the fights; didn't bother with the vaults in there as they were dangerous, and again there's nothing to gain from doing them other than bragging rights.

It's mainly for getting that last few levels worth of XP to take you to 50, as well as a chance to finish out your gearing if you have any notable holes left .. although RNG being RNG there's still no guarantee you'll find anything worth the time (if you don't mind using the gear vault, tho, there's a pretty good chance you'll find something awesome you can bequeath to a future character.) Otherwise, yeah, people tend to just sprint through High Peak and head for that last fight, sometimes to the point of not even bothering with fighting the stair guards - just bait them off the stairs and use whatever mobility options you have to run around them and go to the next level. ('course, that's also because they're all randbosses, and engaging with them can be one of the most dangerous things you can do at that point.)

Can you go into some more depth on why you think that last fight arena is poorly structured?

[factotum]

OK, bit puzzled here. I got the portal to Maj'Eyal activated and went back--but the level 1 dungeons were still clear, despite me having been led to understand that some new higher-level bosses should have spawned in there? Just in case I did the next couple of steps in the plot, but still no additional bosses to fight. So I did the Elven ruins--that, the plot missions, and being eaten by a giant worm have got me up to level 31, so have headed back East to do the Prides. No additional deaths to report, although I've had to activate Last Stand to avoid them a couple of times.