Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Knaight]

I've done the Arena occasionally, and gotten some wins with a couple of classes (Reaver, Oozemancer).

[Anteros]

I didn't even know you could win the arena. I thought it was a mode for setting up individual fights, or would just go on forever. Maybe I'll try it out.

[factotum]

OK, turns out that online thing I found suggesting Wyrmic with Undead Drake is the easiest way to unlock Stone Warden is cobblers. It occurred to me that the talent tree given by eating the Heart of the Sandworm Queen is a Wild-Gift one, so I've just taken a dwarf necromancer throught the process of getting the heart and levelling up those wild skills, and I just unlocked the Stone Warden no problem. I also got Psyshot with another character I'm running, so I have five classes to try out now (Shadowblade, Demonologist, Corruptor, Psyshot and Stone Warden).

[tyckspoon]

OK, turns out that online thing I found suggesting Wyrmic with Undead Drake is the easiest way to unlock Stone Warden is cobblers.

It's probably the best way to do it with a character that actually wants to have those points in mixed Arcane and Wild skills; like you noticed just about any Arcane-based class can do it with the Harmony tree, but most Arcane classes have much higher priorities for their category points than opening Harmony.

[Derjuin]

If you've beaten the game at least once, an adventurer easily solves the stonewarden unlock. I actually had to do it this way because I haven't unlocked undead drake and don't have the patience to do most other options...

[zlefin]

ToME:
I'm liking nightmare difficulty; it feels like it's at a good setting of having to work for stuff and play smart. almost finished all the tier 2 quests with my summoner.
joined Zigur, looks like some nice boosts they give.

[factotum]

It's probably the best way to do it with a character that actually wants to have those points in mixed Arcane and Wild skills; like you noticed just about any Arcane-based class can do it with the Harmony tree, but most Arcane classes have much higher priorities for their category points than opening Harmony.

I literally created that character for the purpose of unlocking the Stone Warden, so he went into the Sandworm Lair at level 10 (a couple of levels lower than I would normally choose to), unlocked the Harmony stuff, and then got deleted as soon as I got the Stone Warden--he'd died a few too many times for it to be worth attempting to finish the game with him anyway. According to the "New game" stats I have four character classes and four races still to unlock...getting Marauder seems to be the next likely one. Tried a Shadowblade for that but had the same issue as I did with the Arcane Blade, just didn't like having all these skills requiring mana when I can't regenerate it, so I'm attempting with a Rogue now.

[Derjuin]

I literally created that character for the purpose of unlocking the Stone Warden, so he went into the Sandworm Lair at level 10 (a couple of levels lower than I would normally choose to), unlocked the Harmony stuff, and then got deleted as soon as I got the Stone Warden--he'd died a few too many times for it to be worth attempting to finish the game with him anyway. According to the "New game" stats I have four character classes and four races still to unlock...getting Marauder seems to be the next likely one. Tried a Shadowblade for that but had the same issue as I did with the Arcane Blade, just didn't like having all these skills requiring mana when I can't regenerate it, so I'm attempting with a Rogue now.

The unfortunate part is that it has to be 600 damage in one damage type - so it can't be, like, 300 physical, 100 poison, 50 fire/cold/whatever else. Shadowblade is probably the easiest way to unlock marauder - nab the Light-creating spell and max it out, and grab a staff from somewhere and change its element to +Light, then level up to around 15 or so and use the spell when you're near a -100% light resistance crystal in the shalore start zone.

GL with rogue though!

[Anteros]

I just use a mod to unlock everything. I lost my old profile when I got my new computer and I can't be bothered to unlock them again.

[zlefin]

have you played all the stuff you've unlocked? I'm probably just playing at a slow pace or something, but it seems like it'd take a long time before I've gotten through 'em.

[factotum]

I just use a mod to unlock everything. I lost my old profile when I got my new computer and I can't be bothered to unlock them again.

This is why I'm making sure to keep my ToME profile backed up, which helped me out when Steam decided to overwrite it with an older one...

[EDIT] And I am really struggling with the Rogue playstyle generally, it seems. I know the idea is to hit and run from stealth as much as possible, but the enemies seem to spot me too easily even with maxed Stealth and decent Cunning, and I don't do enough damage as an alpha strike to one-hit them. So battles tend to turn into just smashing my daggers into them in the hope they die before I do. So far tried three Rogues and haven't got a single one out of the low teens, level-wise.

[Anteros]

This is why I'm making sure to keep my ToME profile backed up, which helped me out when Steam decided to overwrite it with an older one...

[EDIT] And I am really struggling with the Rogue playstyle generally, it seems. I know the idea is to hit and run from stealth as much as possible, but the enemies seem to spot me too easily even with maxed Stealth and decent Cunning, and I don't do enough damage as an alpha strike to one-hit them. So battles tend to turn into just smashing my daggers into them in the hope they die before I do. So far tried three Rogues and haven't got a single one out of the low teens, level-wise.

Yeah, I can win with a shadowblade but plain Rogues are just very underwhelming. The stealth mechanic in general is just very unreliable and gimmicky in my opinion and even my successful Shadowblades just ignore it.

have you played all the stuff you've unlocked? I'm probably just playing at a slow pace or something, but it seems like it'd take a long time before I've gotten through 'em.

Not really. I typically just play a few builds that I enjoy.

[tyckspoon]

This is why I'm making sure to keep my ToME profile backed up, which helped me out when Steam decided to overwrite it with an older one...

[EDIT] And I am really struggling with the Rogue playstyle generally, it seems. I know the idea is to hit and run from stealth as much as possible, but the enemies seem to spot me too easily even with maxed Stealth and decent Cunning, and I don't do enough damage as an alpha strike to one-hit them. So battles tend to turn into just smashing my daggers into them in the hope they die before I do. So far tried three Rogues and haven't got a single one out of the low teens, level-wise.

I've never really clicked with Rogues either. I'm told Traps is a pretty powerful tree, but it takes a lot of points and an annoying amount of levels to get up to the point where they're usable, because you really want the talent that lets you remote deploy them instead of having to put them under your own feet and then try to lure enemies across them all the time (It's possible I just don't have the patience to use it). Stealth works best from range, since as you've noticed the penalties for trying to do it at melee range are just too high to be reliable - Shadowblades actually get better use from that, since they can 'sneak attack' enemies from stupidly huge ranges with the Light attack spell and Channel Staff. The throwing daggers tree works pretty well, tho, especially since it can apply your Poisons.

(If you don't have the Poisons tree, you can unlock it by siding with the Assassin Lord in the Lost Merchant dungeon. It's one of those 'make a character just to do this and then delete' things, IMO, since otherwise rescuing the Merchant gives hugely better rewards than the Assassin Lord. Works like the Archmage specialty tree unlocks, doing it once opens it for all relevant characters.)

[factotum]

I do have Poisons, and I intend to try a poison-and-sling Rogue at some point--I think Stealth would actually work decently with that build, and shot pouches regenerate, unlike mana on a Shadowblade. For now, I've started a Rogue who ignores Stealth entirely, because not putting points into that means I have a lot more available to increase my damage output--will see how I go.

[Anteros]

I'm sure stealth and traps are very effective, but it's just so tedious. I can't imagine actually playing through the game that way.

[Derjuin]

Stealth is pretty bad for actually sneaking around, but it's great for buffing your crit damage. The easiest way to play rogue I've found is to only use stealth to boost crits or avoid missiles, similar to Archers' concealment.

[Bohandas]

Ok. I just saw an announcement that Dwarf Fortress is going to be released on Steam (if it's ever completed)

[heronbpv]

There's a steam page already. And it reads:

"Avaiable: time is subjective". Lol!

Already on wishlist.

[factotum]

It's a real struggle to get bow and sling users through the early game unless you luck out on your loot drops, I find--sling Rogue and bow Archer I tried both died to bosses in the tier 1 dungeons. Another bow Archer I did had much better luck, although even he's died once before he hit level 10.

[tyckspoon]

It's a real struggle to get bow and sling users through the early game unless you luck out on your loot drops, I find--sling Rogue and bow Archer I tried both died to bosses in the tier 1 dungeons. Another bow Archer I did had much better luck, although even he's died once before he hit level 10.

I haven't had major issues, but I do find they don't really become comfortable until you get a range 8+ weapon. For Rogues I'd probably just do daggers and melee through at least the first couple dungeons, since they don't really have skill trees that lend to ranged anyways - put a few points in the basic attack skills and in Dagger Mastery, shuffle them back out later on and reassign them to your long term goal (this is also somewhat common with classes like Archmage, where you might float a few points in Flame or Lightning Bolt so you can have a backup spell to use until your main element really comes together.)

For Archers I'd probably have to suggest just toughing it out until you get together ~100 gold and then going straight to Last Hope and buying a Tier 3 bow. Preferably with a nice property on it, but really you're just looking for that range so you can engage things from far enough away to not get rushed down as easily. Avoid engaging the boss and just clear the trash and pick up the loot from the floors first if you have to.

[zlefin]

Anyone play Elona? if so how is it? just wondering.
I remember a few years ago I played a nice flash game called Elona shooter, which was based off of a rogue-like called Elona iirc. and since I've been doing other rogue-likes of late it came to mind.

My ToME summoner is going along nicely; sadly i failed the merchant mission (or rather, he died) because my summons aoe caused him to turn hostile. And my best summon is the dragon which I tend to need for facing the tougher opponents. similar happened fighting the slavers; of course there there isn't really a consequence if you end up killing the slaves along with the slavers.

[tyckspoon]

My ToME summoner is going along nicely; sadly i failed the merchant mission (or rather, he died) because my summons aoe caused him to turn hostile. And my best summon is the dragon which I tend to need for facing the tougher opponents. similar happened fighting the slavers; of course there there isn't really a consequence if you end up killing the slaves along with the slavers.

Oof. Yeah, Summoner's pretty bad for that; have to be careful about nuking escorts too. For the Merchant, what I usually do is just attack one of the minion enemies that starts out closer to where you load into that room. That aggros the Assassin Lord and his minions without having to get anywhere near the Merchant, and lets you spread out the fight a lot with room to run around some if you can't handle just slugging it out with 4-8 rogue enemies + the Assassin Lord at once.

You don't ever have to actually talk to the Merchant to count as saving him, incidentally - the condition for 'rescuing' him is going up the stairs with him still alive. So if you manage to aggro him but don't kill him you can still succeed by killing the Assassin Lord and just going up the stairs back to the worldmap.

[factotum]

My Thalore Archer, who I started with the purpose of unlocking the Oozemancer (apparently the Sludgenest is only 100% guaranteed to spawn for Thalore), has actually now hit level 27 and unlocked Krog along the way. I'm actually using the Sniper skills--with Concealment active I get +3 range to my bow anyway, so the range isn't as important. Getting a nice set of high damage arrows is far more critical, IMHO. I've done everything I can in Maj'Eyal apart from the elven ruins and Mark of the Spellblaze, and I think 27 is maybe a bit low to head East, so I'm considering trying a farportal dungeon.

[tyckspoon]

My Thalore Archer, who I started with the purpose of unlocking the Oozemancer (apparently the Sludgenest is only 100% guaranteed to spawn for Thalore), has actually now hit level 27 and unlocked Krog along the way. I'm actually using the Sniper skills--with Concealment active I get +3 range to my bow anyway, so the range isn't as important. Getting a nice set of high damage arrows is far more critical, IMHO. I've done everything I can in Maj'Eyal apart from the elven ruins and Mark of the Spellblaze, and I think 27 is maybe a bit low to head East, so I'm considering trying a farportal dungeon.

Spellblaze shouldn't be too bad at that point if you're just trying to farm a little more XP; just don't engage the Grand Corruptor if you don't feel like fighting him. Otherwise I'd go ahead and head East, maybe do something like Briagh's dungeon or spidercaves first if you don't feel up to hitting the Prides yet. By that point your next main benchmark should be hitting 30 for your Prodigy - I don't usually find that my characters develop major new capacities after that. Usually just filling in points on things you already have, maybe unlocking and starting to fill in your 'well, it'd be nice to have' additional trees.

[Kaptin Keen]

This is apparently the ToME thread now, but I just wanted to pipe in that I finally got a wish, an amulet of life saving, and saved Khelavaster, so I can move on. In the meantime, I honestly think I have every resistance in the game. I cast a scroll of insight just now, and I have more than a full page of intrinsics.

I also seem to not be using much magic anymore. Unsure whether that's good. Propably not.

[factotum]

Well, to be fair you *did* name it "Rogue-likes", not "ADOM"...

Anyway, my old friend overconfidence killed my archer. I'd unlocked Cultist of Entropy and Oozemancer, was level 35 and able to one-hit most things before they were even aware of my presence thanks to the 13 range of my bow and Concealment talent, so when I read the second forbidden tome I'd picked up I ignored the warning that it was probably not something I should be doing. Turns out, unlike the other tomes I've found, you actually get physically transported into this one, and it's full of a *lot* of nasties that want you dead...and when you go to the Eidolon Plane after dying you don't get the "transport me somewhere safe" option, so it's either stay on the Eidolon Plane forever, end the character entirely, or go back to the book with the unwinnable fight.

I'm not *too* disappointed because I had started this character purely to get the Oozemancer unlock, but I was doing so well that I can't help feel a little annoyed at my stupidity.

[Kaptin Keen]

Well, to be fair you *did* name it "Rogue-likes", not "ADOM"....

And deliberately so. It was the thread that inspired me to pick up ADOM again - not the other way around. I just don't play TOME .. and I'm not sure I'm going to. I'm pretty sure Caves of Qud is what I'll play, once I tire once more of ADOM, and they actually finish it.

[Anteros]

Anyone play Elona? if so how is it? just wondering.
I remember a few years ago I played a nice flash game called Elona shooter, which was based off of a rogue-like called Elona iirc. and since I've been doing other rogue-likes of late it came to mind.

My ToME summoner is going along nicely; sadly i failed the merchant mission (or rather, he died) because my summons aoe caused him to turn hostile. And my best summon is the dragon which I tend to need for facing the tougher opponents. similar happened fighting the slavers; of course there there isn't really a consequence if you end up killing the slaves along with the slavers.

I've heard positive things, but never personally played it.

[TaRix]

Anyone play Elona? if so how is it? just wondering.
I remember a few years ago I played a nice flash game called Elona shooter, which was based off of a rogue-like called Elona iirc. and since I've been doing other rogue-likes of late it came to mind.

I played it for a while, but reading this thread makes me think a bunch of its stuff was lifted from ADOM code. Except in Elona, I think the emphasis is more on the perpetual climb rather than working towards an ending. Get ALL the skillz!

[zlefin]

my summoner died. bosses in various tier 3 areas were just too much for 'em at times, had a death each in a few different places. also decided I need better escape mechanisms, and to make sure my wild infusion has a way to claer ice block (especially sinc ethe summons will attack the ice and kill me at times). I also found it hard to track what's happening, as with a bunch of summons, so much happens in each turn, you really have to read the log a lot just to understand what's happening.
started a rogue instead and working thru the tier 2's. decided to focus on daggers melee and throwing; skipping over the traps.

i'm also switching races with every new char to cycle through them.