Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Kaptin Keen]

I've recently regretted that I missed the opportunity to name this thread Rouge-likes ... but never mind that.

My interest in ADOM is waning, I'm inching in on my second win - elf guy looks likely to make it - and while I love that this game has a story and a kind of plot, I'm a little disappointed how often my mage just carves his way through enemies with his axe. Essentially, he plays very much like troll guy, who was a straight up brawler (well, he was a healer, but still).

So what other roguelikes are out there that one must try? I've tried to drop some names of ones I've seen and found interesting - Caves of Qud, for instance - but this hasn't drawn any reaction. Which could mean that no one knows them .. or that they're crap =)

So .. how about Duskers, CoQ, Cogmind, Rimworld (does that even count?), and so on?

Sadly, I don't buy games in EA, so that excludes at least two of the above. Still, what else is out there? =)

[Anteros]

I've recently regretted that I missed the opportunity to name this thread Rouge-likes ... but never mind that.

My interest in ADOM is waning, I'm inching in on my second win - elf guy looks likely to make it - and while I love that this game has a story and a kind of plot, I'm a little disappointed how often my mage just carves his way through enemies with his axe. Essentially, he plays very much like troll guy, who was a straight up brawler (well, he was a healer, but still).

So what other roguelikes are out there that one must try? I've tried to drop some names of ones I've seen and found interesting - Caves of Qud, for instance - but this hasn't drawn any reaction. Which could mean that no one knows them .. or that they're crap =)

So .. how about Duskers, CoQ, Cogmind, Rimworld (does that even count?), and so on?

Sadly, I don't buy games in EA, so that excludes at least two of the above. Still, what else is out there? =)

I've never really tried Qud. I hate the ascii style, so that's a deal breaker for me. Tome is always popular as I'm sure you've seen and definitely plays differently than adom. DCSS is good and has an easy learning curve. Out of the ones you've mentioned Rimworld is the only one I'm familiar with. It's good, but it's not very similar to other roguelike games.

[Kaptin Keen]

I've never really tried Qud. I hate the ascii style, so that's a deal breaker for me. Tome is always popular as I'm sure you've seen and definitely plays differently than adom. DCSS is good and has an easy learning curve. Out of the ones you've mentioned Rimworld is the only one I'm familiar with. It's good, but it's not very similar to other roguelike games.

Trouble with DCSS and TOME is that they differ from ADOM in the one way that makes ADOM excellent: They don't have a plot - instead, they're really good at what I don't really care about in ADOM, which is having a bunch of classes and builds to play around with. This is why I've never tried them =)

On the other hand, I'm honestly unsure whether I can deal with ascii graphics again. So that makes Caves of Qud iffy.

[Anteros]

Tome does have a plot. It just doesn't really become apparent until about halfway through the game.

[Sian]

Tome does have a plot. It just doesn't really become apparent until about halfway through the game.

That and it’s extremely optional to follow (bring back orc breeding pits)

[Kaptin Keen]

Tome does have a plot. It just doesn't really become apparent until about halfway through the game.

Well, in principle so does DCSS. It's just very bare bones.

[zlefin]

to me, I don't feel much of a difference in the amount of plot between ToME and adom.

one thing I'm liking about ToME is the frequency of tactical thinking. with adom it was too often just endlessly auto-attack, and make sure you're tough enough to handle the zone by autoattack.

[Kaptin Keen]

to me, I don't feel much of a difference in the amount of plot between ToME and adom.

one thing I'm liking about ToME is the frequency of tactical thinking. with adom it was too often just endlessly auto-attack, and make sure you're tough enough to handle the zone by autoattack.

It is rather lacking in interesting melee moves, isn't it? Anyways, I might take a stab at TOME at some point, but the endless unlocks turn me off, frankly.

[zlefin]

It is rather lacking in interesting melee moves, isn't it? Anyways, I might take a stab at TOME at some point, but the endless unlocks turn me off, frankly.

adom is indeed quite thin on the melee moves. there's only a very few class based ones.

for ToME there's mods that unlock everything iirc.

[Derjuin]

It is rather lacking in interesting melee moves, isn't it? Anyways, I might take a stab at TOME at some point, but the endless unlocks turn me off, frankly.

There's actually an addon you can get that unlocks everything for you automatically

[Kaptin Keen]

There's actually an addon you can get that unlocks everything for you automatically

Well - yes. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I saw. But my problem isn't with the unlocks, as such. It's that a great big pile of classes and builds don't do anything for me. In D&D 3.5, I play core only, for instance =)

[zlefin]

Well - yes. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I saw. But my problem isn't with the unlocks, as such. It's that a great big pile of classes and builds don't do anything for me. In D&D 3.5, I play core only, for instance =)

can you describe more about what you're looking for?
it almost sounds like rogue-likes might not be the best genre for what you're seeking from what I've seen you say so far. why seek in rogue-likes in particular?

[Sian]

Well - yes. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I saw. But my problem isn't with the unlocks, as such. It's that a great big pile of classes and builds don't do anything for me. In D&D 3.5, I play core only, for instance =)

To be perfectly frank, it's starting to sound like you're looking for a reason to dislike a game ...

[Kaptin Keen]

To be perfectly frank, it's starting to sound like you're looking for a reason to dislike a game ...

To be perfectly frank, your perception of what I'm saying is something I comfortably leave entirely up to you. However, I do not dislike TOME. I've never tried it. But it does seem to me that it's biggest draw is that it has many many races, and many many classes, and many many items, all of which can be combined into a bewildering - nigh infinite - number of possible builds, and that sort of thing has zero appeal to me.

You read that as you like. To me, there's no deeper secret here.

[Kaptin Keen]

can you describe more about what you're looking for?
it almost sounds like rogue-likes might not be the best genre for what you're seeking from what I've seen you say so far. why seek in rogue-likes in particular?

Well - the only true roguelike I've played is ADOM. But FTL, Darkest Dungeon, Sunless Sea, Age of Decadence, Sword of the Stars: The Pit, NEO: Scavenger .. um .. I played Dungeons of Dredmoor, and Don't Starve, and Hollow Knight?

I like games that match the spirit without trying to be Rogue. Also .. I like fluff over crunch.

[Razade]

I've recently regretted that I missed the opportunity to name this thread Rouge-likes ... but never mind that.

My interest in ADOM is waning, I'm inching in on my second win - elf guy looks likely to make it - and while I love that this game has a story and a kind of plot, I'm a little disappointed how often my mage just carves his way through enemies with his axe. Essentially, he plays very much like troll guy, who was a straight up brawler (well, he was a healer, but still).

So what other roguelikes are out there that one must try? I've tried to drop some names of ones I've seen and found interesting - Caves of Qud, for instance - but this hasn't drawn any reaction. Which could mean that no one knows them .. or that they're crap =)

So .. how about Duskers, CoQ, Cogmind, Rimworld (does that even count?), and so on?

Sadly, I don't buy games in EA, so that excludes at least two of the above. Still, what else is out there? =)

Enter the Gungeon just got its final update. It's a pretty rocking time imo, probably my favorite of the Rogue-Likes to have come out. The last two characters are a bit rough to unlock but there's plenty of things and reasons to do those things for a solid 100ish or more hours.

[Anteros]

Well, in principle so does DCSS. It's just very bare bones.

TOME has a lot more plot than DCSS though. There are NPCs, missions, and an overarching story. Funnily enough, I would have said it has more plot than ADOM since I've only played the start of ADOM and never really saw evidence of a plot there.

Well - yes. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I saw. But my problem isn't with the unlocks, as such. It's that a great big pile of classes and builds don't do anything for me. In D&D 3.5, I play core only, for instance =)

Just like D&D, it has a bunch of options you can choose to explore, but you can stick to the core classes if you want. The adventurer class picks from different skills, but that's a bonus class you get for beating the game. For the core classes, shadowblade is always going to play like a shadowblade and a warrior is always going to play like a warrior.

[Kaptin Keen]

Enter the Gungeon just got its final update. It's a pretty rocking time imo, probably my favorite of the Rogue-Likes to have come out. The last two characters are a bit rough to unlock but there's plenty of things and reasons to do those things for a solid 100ish or more hours.

I've looked at Gungeon a few times, but it looks like a bullethell game to me, and I don't have the reaction speed for those shenanigans no more. But maybe I'm wrong?

TOME has a lot more plot than DCSS though. There are NPCs, missions, and an overarching story. Funnily enough, I would have said it has more plot than ADOM since I've only played the start of ADOM and never really saw evidence of a plot there.

Just like D&D, it has a bunch of options you can choose to explore, but you can stick to the core classes if you want. The adventurer class picks from different skills, but that's a bonus class you get for beating the game. For the core classes, shadowblade is always going to play like a shadowblade and a warrior is always going to play like a warrior.

I'm just parroting what I've heard people say - I have no clue how much story and plot TOME has. But, sure, maybe I should check it out =)

[factotum]

Just a note about ToME's variety: the race you pick doesn't make a huge difference--it changes your hit points per level, your starting stats, *one* race-specific set of generic talents, and the experience penalty you get. There are a couple of extra bits and pieces--Cornac (e.g. vanilla humans) get talent point bonuses every 10 levels or so and one extra Category point, Ghouls have a global speed penalty, etc.--but you're perfectly safe always picking Cornac as your race pick and not worrying about any of that stuff. In fact, that's what I do when trying out a new class for the first time, because it provides the best baseline for comparison IMHO, plus Cornac doesn't get an experience penalty so you level up a bit faster.

As for all the classes, the big advantage there is that you can find something that suits you. My only run so far where I actually beat the game was with a Brawler, so I was effectively punching monsters to death--got to love a punch that's so hard it damages near enough everything on the screen, though, and the natural damage reduction Brawlers get via their Striking Stance is a godsend for survivability. Won't help much if you get hit by a spell crit for 1500 damage, but very little will help if you're that unlucky, whatever race or class you're running.

[Anteros]

Yeah, typically race doesn't make a lot of difference. When in doubt just make a Shalore since they do everything well and are probably the best overall race. Built in haste, crit chance, invisibility, and a get out of jail free ability that resets cooldowns and lowers the timer on debuffs? What were they thinking?

[Derjuin]

Yeah, typically race doesn't make a lot of difference. When in doubt just make a Shalore since they do everything well and are probably the best overall race. Built in haste, crit chance, invisibility, and a get out of jail free ability that resets cooldowns and lowers the timer on debuffs? What were they thinking?

Shalore Oozemancer

I've actually been trying to win with one recently... they are quite squishy and you don't really want to take any of your racial talents since only one of them works (the passive) and they'll lock you out of Zigur if you do take them.

[tyckspoon]

As for all the classes, the big advantage there is that you can find something that suits you. My only run so far where I actually beat the game was with a Brawler, so I was effectively punching monsters to death--got to love a punch that's so hard it damages near enough everything on the screen, though, and the natural damage reduction Brawlers get via their Striking Stance is a godsend for survivability. Won't help much if you get hit by a spell crit for 1500 damage, but very little will help if you're that unlucky, whatever race or class you're running.

Well, there are races and classes with one-shot protection (can't be hit for more than % of your max life in a single shot), and it's rarer but there are talents that give crit-multiplier reduction or chance-to-be-crit reduction so that they happen less frequently or sting less. Although that second usually comes on gear. And if you're an Ogre you can get a lot of bonus effect on runes/infusions, so your race might help your Shield or Heroism tank the hit in that case. Most extreme case you could be an Ogre Archmage and be getting like 80% bonus shield on your overcharged shield rune layered with a Time Shield or Disruption Shield.. or have Distortion Shield actually go off and dump that crit on somebody else

[Kaptin Keen]

By the way, as Elf Guy nears the endgame, I ran into a vault - full of titans (more precisely, levelled fire, frost and stonegiants, and titans), and ... merciful heavens did that take a long time to clear. Also netted me four full levels, from 29 to 34. Burned through a significant pile of my spells too.

Titans are tough. If I'm being honest, I can neither melee nor magic them to death, I need to run and heal every few rounds. Which didn't do wonders for how long the fight took. But I won. So yay =)

D:44 now. Earth temple. Earth was the hardest to beat for Troll Guy if memory serves, so that should be fun.

[Razade]

I've looked at Gungeon a few times, but it looks like a bullethell game to me, and I don't have the reaction speed for those shenanigans no more. But maybe I'm wrong?

You're wrong. The game is super beginner friendly and non-bullet hell people can do it easy. It's not Tohou or anything.

[Anteros]

You're wrong. The game is super beginner friendly and non-bullet hell people can do it easy. It's not Tohou or anything.

Umm, it's definitely a bullet hell game. It may not be as difficult as some others, but the bullet hell aspect is definitely present. Especially the bosses.

[factotum]

stuff

All of which comes under the "one race-specific generic talent tree" I already mentioned. To be honest, I've never really paid much attention to racial talent trees, apart from the Skeleton because theirs are super good.

[zlefin]

for ToME, does anyone know of a mod that makes it clearer when you're facing rares?
Uniques and bosses are easy to see; but rares don't look any different on the main screen as far as I can tell. so when I meet a stack of foes, it's hard to tell whether there's a rare in them without mousing over them all which is too tedious to do.
they just need a clearer outline or special color, like uniques/bosses, so they're easy to spot visually.

[Derjuin]

for ToME, does anyone know of a mod that makes it clearer when you're facing rares?
Uniques and bosses are easy to see; but rares don't look any different on the main screen as far as I can tell. so when I meet a stack of foes, it's hard to tell whether there's a rare in them without mousing over them all which is too tedious to do.
they just need a clearer outline or special color, like uniques/bosses, so they're easy to spot visually.

Rares have a reddish-pink circle under their feet, it's just not as ostentatious as uniques'/bosses'. There might be an in-game setting for healthbars with that too, but I haven't looked in a while.

[tyckspoon]

Rares have a reddish-pink circle under their feet, it's just not as ostentatious as uniques'/bosses'. There might be an in-game setting for healthbars with that too, but I haven't looked in a while.

There's an in-game setting that will put colored frames around the sprites, too. Check around in the menus, I don't remember what it's actually called, but I turned it on like forever ago.

[zlefin]

I already turned on the frames.
I'll look more closely at the rares' circle, but my impression is that it's just not ostentatious enough that I can easily see it/distinguish it.