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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    This doesnít change the chainability. That clause is what enables it(because metamagic versions of spells arenít among spells known, without that clause you couldnít add them at all) since Sanctum lowers the effective level. If you are referring to the cast time, any sorcerer delving into metamagic abuse is going to have Rapid Metamagic.
    Here is a short discussion on the topic.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-and-metamagic

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    That ended in a decision based on reasonable RAI not RAW. Your original assertion is correct that the spell level is not adjusted except by Heighten, itís derivatives, and Sanctum and all other metamagic could be applied liberally until you failed your reflex roll for a DMG to the head.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    That ended in a decision based on reasonable RAI not RAW. Your original assertion is correct that the spell level is not adjusted except by Heighten, itís derivatives, and Sanctum and all other metamagic could be applied liberally until you failed your reflex roll for a DMG to the head.
    Well yeah, I know. I was siding with RAI for this one. Most of the stuff in a handbook should be usable at a table. Iíve literally never been in a table where sanctum arcane fusion loops were allowed, and before you ask, yes I have been in one where Shadow Gossamer allows the creation of artifacts before.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    Well yeah, I know. I was siding with RAI for this one. Most of the stuff in a handbook should be usable at a table. Iíve literally never been in a table where sanctum arcane fusion loops were allowed, and before you ask, yes I have been in one where Shadow Gossamer allows the creation of artifacts before.
    Seems like a guide should side with RAW, with a nod towards "don't expect this to be allowed at an actual table, but..."

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Looking for a way to get infinite spell slot recovery to add to the handbook but with minimal build investment. Preferably something that could be done in combat. Any ideas?

    I'm thinking it would probably have to do with an expansion of the Belt of the Dread Emperor + Fast Healing/Regeneration idea but the problem for use in combat is that it's use apparently is a standard action which would cripple you to waste mid combat.
    Last edited by flappeercraft; 2018-12-19 at 12:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    Looking for a way to get infinite spell slot recovery to add to the handbook but with minimal build investment. Preferably something that could be done in combat. Any ideas?

    I'm thinking it would probably have to do with an expansion of the Belt of the Dread Emperor + Fast Healing/Regeneration idea but the problem for use in combat is that it's use apparently is a standard action which would cripple you to waste mid combat.
    Something something time stop?
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    So I don't have anything to add directly to the recovery methods, but WRT the Elder Druid, I looked it up and didn't see any of the "usual" mentions of "If you don't/can't take CON damage" (like the Hellfire Warlock and the Eternal Debate about Strongheart Vest.)
    Now, unfortunately I was not able to access the original source, so any details in the description may be subject to lacking. (Though, without naming names, the site I looked at is fairly reliable...)

    Basically, what I'm getting at is that it looks like, as you mentioned, an undead may take full (ab)use of this class! (Given the fluff/RP aspect of needing to be invited into the group, I'm not sure how well a Necropolitan would fit in. A ghost tied to a sacred grove, however...)
    I checked the mag and it doesn't say anything about not being preventable. You'll want some way other than strongheart vest to avoid aging, but I suppose being Undead takes care of both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I checked the mag and it doesn't say anything about not being preventable. You'll want some way other than strongheart vest to avoid aging, but I suppose being Undead takes care of both.
    And in fact as an undead you would benefit from aging to get that one template wouldnít you? I canít remember but it was a repeatable based on age improvement for undead.

    Edit: Found it, Evolved Undead
    https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters...edundead.shtml
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2018-12-19 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I checked the mag and it doesn't say anything about not being preventable. You'll want some way other than strongheart vest to avoid aging, but I suppose being Undead takes care of both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    And in fact as an undead you would benefit from aging to get that one template wouldnít you? I canít remember but it was a repeatable based on age improvement for undead.

    Edit: Found it, Evolved Undead
    https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters...edundead.shtml
    Yep! Undead Elder Druid seems to be all profit! (Especially since you can take Evolved Undead multiple times! )
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    Yep! Undead Elder Druid seems to be all profit! (Especially since you can take Evolved Undead multiple times! )
    Not all profit, unfortunately. Evolved Undead has LA so you will have to suck it all up. But by the time you have Elder Druid 10 if you don't have 9ths already then you are already in problems regardless.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Yeah but immediate butoff of LA wouldnít make it that bad.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Yeah but immediate butoff of LA wouldnít make it that bad.
    The problem with that is that LA buyoff costs XP and can only be done every 3 levels IIRC.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Actually, it only requires class levels of three times your current LA. Since Evolved Necropoltains only ever need have 1 LA, he could theoretically be Expert 2/Vamp Bloodline 1, never level up and just spend the 2k XP every time he got the template to get rid of it while raking in the rewards. Could rule that you need three more levels each time(3/6/9/12/15/18 for a total of 6 LA bought off pre epic) which is reasonable, but you also have to consider that at minimum you have to age yourself 100 years for a cumulative +1% chance at the template. By the time you are realistically getting into the 6 templates territory you should be Epic where it doesnít really matter anymore.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Actually, it only requires class levels of three times your current LA. Since Evolved Necropoltains only ever need have 1 LA, he could theoretically be Expert 2/Vamp Bloodline 1, never level up and just spend the 2k XP every time he got the template to get rid of it while raking in the rewards. Could rule that you need three more levels each time(3/6/9/12/15/18 for a total of 6 LA bought off pre epic) which is reasonable, but you also have to consider that at minimum you have to age yourself 100 years for a cumulative +1% chance at the template. By the time you are realistically getting into the 6 templates territory you should be Epic where it doesnít really matter anymore.
    Reading the entry on the SRD makes it very clear that you need to gain an additional 3 class levels each time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Reading the entry on the SRD makes it very clear that you need to gain an additional 3 class levels each time.
    That is, sadly, not as clear as you think.

    It could be argued that part you quoted technically only covers LA from the same source, not necessarily two separate sources of LA. Thus, one could cheese buying off multiple acquired templates at the same level.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Steal Spell(Su)
    At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum
    So Master Spellthief won't work that well with Spellthief 2/Wizard X, since you can't retain spell levels over your Spellthief level. Normal Spellthieves, or something like Spellthief 9/Fighter 1/Suel Arcanamach 10 could work, though.
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    So Master Spellthief won't work that well with Spellthief 2/Wizard X, since you can't retain spell levels over your Spellthief level. Normal Spellthieves, or something like Spellthief 9/Fighter 1/Suel Arcanamach 10 could work, though.
    This is debatable, in that it depends whether the phrase "steal a spell" is read to refer exclusively to what level of spell the steal spell ability can remove from the target and not any other aspect of the Steal Spell ability, i.e. holding and substituting own spells (which requires level 4).

    It can just as well be read to mean "for the purpose of the Steal Spell(Su) ability", which is the reading I've seen more commonly applied, if only because a Spellthief who can steal a 4th level spell but then not cast it doesn't "exist in nature". Then again, I've also never seen Master Spellthief caster level shenanigans fly, and those seem pretty commonly accepted around here. So any case, YMMV.
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Jowgen View Post
    This is debatable, in that it depends whether the phrase "steal a spell" is read to refer exclusively to what level of spell the steal spell ability can remove from the target and not any other aspect of the Steal Spell ability, i.e. holding and substituting own spells (which requires level 4).

    It can just as well be read to mean "for the purpose of the Steal Spell(Su) ability", which is the reading I've seen more commonly applied, if only because a Spellthief who can steal a 4th level spell but then not cast it doesn't "exist in nature". Then again, I've also never seen Master Spellthief caster level shenanigans fly, and those seem pretty commonly accepted around here. So any case, YMMV.
    I think a "speak with your DM" mention should be added then, just in case.



    I don't know if it's worth mentioning, since it's a very specific "final dungeon area" thing, but if you're playing a Ragnorra(Elder Evils) campaign, the Worldskin has an area called the Mage Garden. Eating a fruit can restore an 8th level or lower arcane spell slot, but you have to make a caster level check(DC 20+ spell level) or fail, and you also have to make a DC 25 Fort or Will save or be turned into a fruit tree yourself - indeed, many of the trees are transformed mind flayers and at least one is an aboleth. You can be turned back with a dispel check(DC 25) within 3 rounds; beyond that you need a Wish or Miracle.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2018-12-20 at 03:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    While not exactly recovery, more 'saving it for ghost business later', Contingent Spell Lock from Ghostwalk is a spell that lets you reserve spell slots so if you die you have them if you come back as a ghost... So presumably normally you'd lose those slots otherwise.

    So I suppose that's worth noting as a way of preparing your spell slots to remain in the event that you die.

    You do lose those slots from your living body forever though- if you're resurrected you don't have them, it's purely only if you're a ghost you keep them.
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    So, what's about the Spell Scion?
    Recall Spell (Su): As a free action, a spell scion of 2nd level or higher can recall any arcane spell she has just cast, as long as that spell has the fi re descriptor, up to a maximum spell level equal to her spell scion level. She either restores that spell to her list of prepared spells (if she prepares spells) or regains that spell slot (if she does not prepare spells). She may only recall a spell cast in the same round that she uses this ability.
    This ability can be used once per day at 2nd level, twice per day at 5th level, and three times per day at 8th level.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    That reminds me, thereís also the Deep Imaskari. http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ex/20031003b

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    So Master Spellthief won't work that well with Spellthief 2/Wizard X, since you can't retain spell levels over your Spellthief level. Normal Spellthieves, or something like Spellthief 9/Fighter 1/Suel Arcanamach 10 could work, though.
    Hmm, will edit accordingly later today.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't know if it's worth mentioning, since it's a very specific "final dungeon area" thing, but if you're playing a Ragnorra(Elder Evils) campaign, the Worldskin has an area called the Mage Garden. Eating a fruit can restore an 8th level or lower arcane spell slot, but you have to make a caster level check(DC 20+ spell level) or fail, and you also have to make a DC 25 Fort or Will save or be turned into a fruit tree yourself - indeed, many of the trees are transformed mind flayers and at least one is an aboleth. You can be turned back with a dispel check(DC 25) within 3 rounds; beyond that you need a Wish or Miracle.
    Well I'll include it as there is probably some cheese that would make it accessible outside such as Wishing for one of those fruits and making a demiplane exclusively made to farm those fruits by making commoners or kobolds bite in to the fruits. Will edit in later today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malphegor View Post
    While not exactly recovery, more 'saving it for ghost business later', Contingent Spell Lock from Ghostwalk is a spell that lets you reserve spell slots so if you die you have them if you come back as a ghost... So presumably normally you'd lose those slots otherwise.

    So I suppose that's worth noting as a way of preparing your spell slots to remain in the event that you die.

    You do lose those slots from your living body forever though- if you're resurrected you don't have them, it's purely only if you're a ghost you keep them.
    Well you lose them until you reprepare spells when you can decide if you keep them locked or regain them every time. Although I think that's a bit too far out of the scope of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    So, what's about the Spell Scion?
    Works, will add later today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    That reminds me, thereís also the Deep Imaskari. http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ex/20031003b
    Works out, since it's only one race that has spell recovery and I can't add any more spoilers I guess I'll add it to miscellaneous. Will add later today.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Luckstealer PrC (RotW p.118): Desperate Recall ability. Up to 3/day use up some of your Luck Pool to recall a spell or spell slot that you just expended.

    Not exactly recovering a spell, but the Lyric Spell feat (CAd p.113) allows you to expend uses of Bardic Music to cast a spell without expending a spell slot.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    This my be a bit derivative but thought I should mention it. Epic Destiny Artifact Lords and staff wizards can restore spells by recharging magic items of Mnemonic Enhancer or others. Clerics of Magic who get the improved domain can squeeze out some bonus magic item charges per day.

    And while not exactly restoring your own spell slots, Iím sure you could find a way to abuse Imbue with Spell Ability to get higher level spells for lower cost. Teach them Sanctum or metamagiced versions since it only goes off spell level, why prepare Mass Lesser Vigor when you can spend 1 level higher slot to teach an ally two Chain Vigors and a Sanctum Mass Lesser Vigor?

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    Looking for a way to get infinite spell slot recovery to add to the handbook but with minimal build investment. Preferably something that could be done in combat. Any ideas?

    I'm thinking it would probably have to do with an expansion of the Belt of the Dread Emperor + Fast Healing/Regeneration idea but the problem for use in combat is that it's use apparently is a standard action which would cripple you to waste mid combat.
    Does the belt work with divine spells? Because Heal is Cleric-6, recovers 150 hp at level 17, and an be cast on yourself during a time stop from a domain slot....

    Alternatively, there are a few ways to get Heal on an arcane caster.

    Makes an easy loop for out of combat, without the wait time for fast healing.

    Doesn't have the capacity to go neigh-infinite unless you have free metamagic, though. Maybe with Arcane Spellsurge?
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2018-12-20 at 08:23 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    I don't Siphon's bad enough to rate red, to be honest. I hear it's useful for using randomly-generated wands or staffs which aren't really going to be used - seriously, are you really going to be using a wand of phantasmal killer?
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't Siphon's bad enough to rate red, to be honest. I hear it's useful for using randomly-generated wands or staffs which aren't really going to be used - seriously, are you really going to be using a wand of phantasmal killer?
    After casting Convert Wand, sure.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    After casting Convert Wand, sure.
    Well, that's a spell I didn't know about.
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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Carry around a Spell Clock of Mnemonic Enhancer(Prepare), a little less grey than the guidelines for custom repeating spell traps(which is another option for infinite recovery). Also, because clocks and traps can be architectural features, you could Lucid Dream(DC 20) Gate traps and Transdimensional(Unapproachable East) Mnemonic Enhancer clocks any number of ways to apply them there-after.

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    Default Re: Spell Slot Recovery Handbook 3.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Does the belt work with divine spells? Because Heal is Cleric-6, recovers 150 hp at level 17, and an be cast on yourself during a time stop from a domain slot....

    Alternatively, there are a few ways to get Heal on an arcane caster.

    Makes an easy loop for out of combat, without the wait time for fast healing.

    Doesn't have the capacity to go neigh-infinite unless you have free metamagic, though. Maybe with Arcane Spellsurge?
    Stepping through this....

    Cleric-11. Heal is a 6th level spell.
    Use Belt of the Dread Emperor (chain to yourself), to recover a 6th level spell slot: Take 36 damage. Running total: 1 6th recovered, 36 damage.
    Do it again: Take another 36 damage. Running total: 2 6ths recovered, 72 damage.
    Recover another 6th: Take 36 damage. Running total: 3 6ths recovered, 108 damage.
    Cast Heal (6th level spell). Recover 110 hit points at the cost of a 6th level slot. Running total: Net +2 6th level spells, +2 HP, over four rounds. It only gets better as you level.

    Spoiler: Cleric-17, Trickery domain: Not good enough
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    Heal caps off at 150 hp, but that's fine; a 9th is 81 HP, a 6th is 36. 81 + 36=117, you're still ahead. Can we do this forever in a Time Stop?
    Time Stop grants 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Via Readied Action, you can cast Time Stop just as a Time Stop ends - provided that (after casting) you know how long it will last. I will (for this exercise) assume that you have that information after you've cast the Time Stop. If you don't, this chain of logic is not valid.
    Even probability on a Time Stop of each set of rounds (actions not listed in order! Re-cast Time Stop goes last, otherwise order is irrelevant)
    2 rounds: Standard to recover the 9th, standard to re-cast Time Stop. We've lost 81 HP at net 0 spell slots.
    3 rounds: Standard to recover the 9th, standard to re-cast Time Stop, standard to Heal. We've lost 1 6th spell slot, but gained 150 - 81 = 69 hp.
    4 rounds: Standard to recover the 9th, standard to re-cast Time Stop, standard to recover 6th, standard to Heal. Net 0 spell slots, gained 150 - 81 - 36 = 33 hp
    5 rounds: Standard to recover the 9th, standard to re-cast Time Stop, Standard to recover 6th, standard to recover 6th, standard to Heal. Net +1 6th level slot, net loss −3 hp (150 - (36 + 36 + 81))

    Total across all four possibilities: Net 0 spell slots, 18 hp. We don't recover spell slots overall, but we can (on average) keep it up forever, and regain 18 HP. Not good enough. We get our standard action back when we're done, though, so that's a good thing. Whenever we start our turn, we can (on average) fully heal for free.



    Spoiler: Dragon-blooded Wizard 17 with Arcane Disciple and Arcane Spellsurge: Barely enough
    Show

    Arcane Disciple means we have Heal as a 6th level spell, and dragon-blooded means we can cast Arcane Spellsurge as a swift action. Note that Arcane Spellsurge lasts for 17 rounds. Time Stop has an average duration of 3.5 rounds, so on average Arcane Spellsurge will last 4.86 iterations of Time Stop. So anything relating to Arcane Spellsurge in the below could be Heal 3.86 out of 4.86 times (on average). To mostly account for that, I'll only put Arcane Spellsurge in one of the four entries; should be enough to keep it constant (on average).
    Time Stop rolls:
    2 rounds: Recover Time Stop (std), cast Arcane Spellsurge (swift), cast Heal (Swift), cast Time Stop (std): net: -1 6th, -1 7th, +69 hp
    3 rounds: Recover Time Stop (std), recover Arcane Spellsurge (std), cast Heal (Swift), cast Time Stop (Std): Net -1 6th, +1 7th, +20 hp
    4 rounds: Recover Time Stop (Std), recover Heal (std), recover heal (Std), cast Heal (Swift), cast Time Stop (Std): Net: +1 6th, -3 hp
    5 rounds: Recover Time Stop (std), recover Heal (Std), recover Arbitrary 9th (std), cast Heal (swift), Recover Heal (Std), cast Time Stop (std): Net: +1 9th, +1 6th, -84 hp.

    Totaling those up, we've gained net 1 9th level spell slot, and 8 hp. This could loop until the dice hate you enough to line up net losses in excess of your reserves.

    Note that you get your standard action you used to kick it off back at the end - just ready an action for when the time stop ends to do whatever-it-was.


    So... there you go. A feat, a racial pick, and a few spells known. Does not require any specific items other than the Belt of the Dread Emporer. Permits you to recover all of your spell slots (or nearly so) at-will on your turn.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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