Stellaris III: Shop at the Paradox Megacorp!

[Narkis]

So in other words - to figure out whether it's at all worth it, you need to calculate the cost of starbase maintainance against the income the TV generates. I'm ... gonna call that slightly dubious? I'm not 100% certain what a starbase costs, but it's certainly not free, especially not if you equip it with defences. Hm.

Assume it's always worth it, plot to minimize number of starbases to cover your territory, put 0 defenses on your trade bases. That should be enough.

[Guancyto]

It's 1:1 energy, 1:0.5 energy/0.25 consumer goods, or 1:0.5 energy/0.15 unity.

It all depends on market conditions but at least in my game consumer goods seemed to price around 1 cg to 4 energy or so at baseline, which means that at default prices it is 50% more profitable to choose to get energy and consumer goods for your trade value, and then just sell off the excess consumer goods. Obv this changes if they ever dip below 1:2 cost, possibly from a market glut of you selling off hundreds of consumer goods every month.

Converting your trade value to Unity is a little more complicated, but using Culture Worker values (and using Researcher values to separate out the value of the Society Research from CW), and assuming Decent Living Conditions, and the value of food:energy at 1:1 and consumer goods:energy at 1:4, a culture worker will consume 2.85 energy worth of stuff for each point of Unity (not counting housing and amenities for the pop, but also not including bonuses to Unity, which can be quite substantial if your pops are happy).

Whereas Marketplace of Ideas consumes 3.33 energy worth of trade value for each point of Unity, meaning that Marketplace of Ideas is inferior even to Wealth Creation unless you're full up on unity buildings or really need to push to that next Tradition fast.

Capitalism!

[Sian]

So in other words - to figure out whether it's at all worth it, you need to calculate the cost of starbase maintainance against the income the TV generates. I'm ... gonna call that slightly dubious? I'm not 100% certain what a starbase costs, but it's certainly not free, especially not if you equip it with defences. Hm.

Defensive starbases wasn’t free previously either... and probably less competent as well, and that was when the meta was to go starbases in systems with colonized planets and go full trade hub in them

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Assume it's always worth it, plot to minimize number of starbases to cover your territory, put 0 defenses on your trade bases. That should be enough.

It won't be. You need either some guns, or a second starbase with said guns or piracy will be unmanageable.

I find that a second one works better, because that way I can put both in ideal spots: the trade to centralize and collect as much trade as possible, and the other to block a choke point (and also install the "faster hyperlanes" there*, since, being a choke point, my ships will be flying through it a lot).

Grey Wolf

* I mean, I hope I'm not wasting 38 alloy on this - I really think it should at least cover all hyperlanes under control of the starbase rather than just the local system, but I can't even tell if it makes any damn difference there anyway.

[Kaptin Keen]

So, here's a thing.

I decided to save scum something that annoyed me slightly - and when I loaded, I was in an energy deficit. Which is interesting, because I wasn't. As in, the game I loaded wasn't the same as it was when it was saved.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, here's a thing.

I decided to save scum something that annoyed me slightly - and when I loaded, I was in an energy deficit. Which is interesting, because I wasn't. As in, the game I loaded wasn't the same as it was when it was saved.

Wait for the end of month. It'll update.

My game does the same every time I reload.

Grey Wolf

[Kaptin Keen]

Wait for the end of month. It'll update.

My game does the same every time I reload.

Grey Wolf

Really? But .. it's wrong! =)

Edit: But you're right. It updated.

[The Glyphstone]

Random query - in both of my games I've gotten an Anomaly event where one of my scientists detects strange/dangerous readings from a nearby star. When I go to investigate, it turns out that they are just paranoid/hallucinating, and I lose the scientist. Is there a positive outcome to this event that I'm just unlucky enough to not be seeing?

[Kaptin Keen]

Random query - in both of my games I've gotten an Anomaly event where one of my scientists detects strange/dangerous readings from a nearby star. When I go to investigate, it turns out that they are just paranoid/hallucinating, and I lose the scientist. Is there a positive outcome to this event that I'm just unlucky enough to not be seeing?

I have the same one - but before my scientist could go nutz over it, another empire settled the system, then closed their borders. And I imagine he'll die before I take it from them.

Different random query: The .. void gun null void beam. Yes or no?

[Aotrs Commander]

Really? But .. it's wrong! =)

Edit: But you're right. It updated.

This is true of pretty much all the grand strats, because of the way it calculates those numbers. You just have to get used to it.

[Yuki Akuma]

It won't be. You need either some guns, or a second starbase with said guns or piracy will be unmanageable.

Or... you can make a tiny fleet of maybe five corvettes and have them patrol your trade routes indefinitely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or... you can make a tiny fleet of maybe five corvettes and have them patrol your trade routes indefinitely.

Tried that. Two issues: 1) they took too long to travel the full route, so I was seeing 80% efficiency at the ends. b) I value my naval force limit higher than the space station limit. I've maxed the first, but are nowhere close to maxing the second.

And I have easily six major trade routes at this time. So I don't think setting 30 force limit to patrol would even be feasible.

ETA: Stellaris crashes if I tab out. It's really annoying.

Grey Wolf

[Anonymouswizard]

Huh, I've tabbed into and out of the game with no problem.

Anyway, been slowly expanding, I've actually found the second constructor useful when I have the influence to claim two star systems at once, and I've located my first alien race! Unfortunately have had to end the session about two months before I finished the research, but I've got a couple of fleets being built up to take them out in order to satisfy the internal factions that have popped up. Considering holding off the actual war until I've unlocked railguns, but I'm parking a fleet right on their doorstep just in case they get the wrong idea about who's invading who.

Energy problems all solved now, it's back to needing more alloys for more ships. But I'm getting reading to trade some other resources for more when I run out, I really do feel the need to pump out some more ships.

[Narkis]

Anyway, been slowly expanding, I've actually found the second constructor useful when I have the influence to claim two star systems at once, and I've located my first alien race! Unfortunately have had to end the session about two months before I finished the research, but I've got a couple of fleets being built up to take them out in order to satisfy the internal factions that have popped up. Considering holding off the actual war until I've unlocked railguns, but I'm parking a fleet right on their doorstep just in case they get the wrong idea about who's invading who.

When you do meet the xenos, make sure to check their strength relative to yours and don't attack unless they're inferior, as they'll also have starbases to defend with. You'll also need a few armies to actually conquer planets, but it shouldn't be too many and you can bomb them while they're being trained.

[Anonymouswizard]

When you do meet the xenos, make sure to check their strength relative to yours and don't attack unless they're inferior, as they'll also have starbases to defend with. You'll also need a few armies to actually conquer planets, but it shouldn't be too many and you can bomb them while they're being trained.

The Commonwealth of Mankind is confused by the implication, exterminating the xenos is easier from orbit.

Yeah, guess I'm going to have to train up some armies and get some generals then. I'm also planning to put off my actual attack for a year or two to allow Railguns to finish researching, but I'm building up my fleets as fast as I can get the alloys just in case. As it is I'm going to assume I have to hold off the attack for a bit because of how I've just not been building up my fleets, I hope the xenos are less xenophobic than my empire is.

I am under no musassumptions about playing the good guys. I'm very much playing the villains of the galaxy, I'll actually be happy if this game ends with a federation grinding me into dust.

[Jeivar]

So, I'm thinking of picking this game up during the Steam Holiday Sale, and I'd like to know if I should.

I haven't done a whole lot of these giant management games, but I have enjoyed several of the Total War titles, and running a star empire is an enticing prospect. I did try Galactic Civilisations III after another sale, but I gave up very early on because it was just way too slow. I know management games aren't to be played with the same mindset as shooters, but GC went too far in the other direction, in my opinion.

I guess I just want some general thoughts on Stellaris.

[Eldan]

If GalCiv is to slow for you, this might not be the game for you, it's actually pretty similar. What this game has more htan GalCiv is random events that al come with a bit of fluff, but that just gives you a short piece of text to read every few minutes.

With the new economy system, I'd say it's more detailed than GalCiv, though.

[Eldan]

The Commonwealth of Mankind is confused by the implication, exterminating the xenos is easier from orbit.

Yeah, guess I'm going to have to train up some armies and get some generals then. I'm also planning to put off my actual attack for a year or two to allow Railguns to finish researching, but I'm building up my fleets as fast as I can get the alloys just in case. As it is I'm going to assume I have to hold off the attack for a bit because of how I've just not been building up my fleets, I hope the xenos are less xenophobic than my empire is.

I am under no musassumptions about playing the good guys. I'm very much playing the villains of the galaxy, I'll actually be happy if this game ends with a federation grinding me into dust.

Bombing into submission and then winning via attrition is possible, but conquering planets with armies gives way more warscore. For the first strategy, you want t set your policies to indiscriminate bombardment, so you can go mini-Exterminatus. (Proper exterminatus requires DLC and later-game tech.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, I decided to attack a neighbour to make it my vassal, but it looks like it will be physically impossible - the war exhaustion ticks up about 1 point per month. I don't think I have the time to even go from one end of their land to the other before it reaches 100 and I get forced into Status Quo and I get nothing.

Now, last time I did this, the empire I was attacking had a mutual defence pack with another one, so even after I full-occupied them and destroyed their navy, it took 100% attrition to get them to accept vassalization (50 war score from occupation, 50 war score from attrition). This guy doesn't have any allies, so will I be able to win if I only occupy half their land? Or do I still need to get full occupation of every system to get that 50 war score when it's only one enemy?

(Alternatively, is there a way to slow down the attrition timer? I't s a bit ridiculous it went up before I even had ships outside my borders)

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Unless I'm forgetting something, you should be able to make claims so that you get something out of a status quo. That's the usual way I make progress in a war. I don't remember where the menu option for mass-claiming is, but I think it's on the sidebar now.

The only catch is that you'll need to make sure you invade planets with armies to conquer them; if you go status quo, any systems you occupy where the owner still controls a planet will flip back to them, even if you have a claim on them.

Honestly, I've seldom outright won a war. I usually just make gradual progress in a series of wars. I feel like getting them to accept my terms (and vassalizing terms give a hefty penalty to their willingness to accept) only happens when I'm overwhelming them, and quickly.

I don't remember if there's a setting to slow down war exhaustion (if there is, it should be during game creation), but there's techs you can research which reduce exhaustion gain. Maybe a tradition too, I don't remember.

[factotum]

If GalCiv is to slow for you, this might not be the game for you, it's actually pretty similar.

I would disagree there. The main thing that slows down GalCiv 3 is the fact it's turn-based. Stellaris being real time, and allowing you to set the game speed to a certain extent, means you can speed up the sluggish parts and then slow (or even pause) when you want to think carefully about what to do next.

@Jeivar: I think Stellaris is a more enjoyable game than GC3 is. The main issue is that, as with most Paradox titles, they don't just add features and tweak bugs in patches--they completely change the whole way the game plays, so you'll get used to it and then suddenly all your experience counts for naught because everything changes!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Unless I'm forgetting something, you should be able to make claims so that you get something out of a status quo. That's the usual way I make progress in a war. I don't remember where the menu option for mass-claiming is, but I think it's on the sidebar now.

Yeah, but the thing is, I don't want any extra systems. I want to vassalize because I'm already so far over the planet-sector-thing cap that I'm paying double for all my techs. Yes, the last guy I took over I claimed all the systems up to and including his capital (and a neighborhood one with two planets already settled, and three more beyond that), conquered that, and ten years later I vassalized what was left. But then that was a useless vassal - too weak to assist, so I integrated him for like 30 influence.

This gal, if I vassalize her as she is now, will provide some 4-5k forces to my empire without me having to take on any extra planets. It sort of defeats the purpose if I have to weaken them first, thus my question about whether the war is even possible for me to win. Because the alternative will be "not go into war", rather than "eat it a bit at a time over the next couple of decades". Yes, I know it's possible to do it that way, I just think it will not be a good idea to do so.

Grey Wolf

[Grif]

Yeah, but the thing is, I don't want any extra systems. I want to vassalize because I'm already so far over the planet-sector-thing cap that I'm paying double for all my techs. Yes, the last guy I took over I claimed all the systems up to and including his capital (and a neighborhood one with two planets already settled, and three more beyond that), conquered that, and ten years later I vassalized what was left. But then that was a useless vassal - too weak to assist, so I integrated him for like 30 influence.

This gal, if I vassalize her as she is now, will provide some 4-5k forces to my empire without me having to take on any extra planets. It sort of defeats the purpose if I have to weaken them first, thus my question about whether the war is even possible for me to win. Because the alternative will be "not go into war", rather than "eat it a bit at a time over the next couple of decades". Yes, I know it's possible to do it that way, I just think it will not be a good idea to do so.

Grey Wolf

One thing to note. AI, once vassalised, suddenly loses all their AI bonuses, making them weaker even if you didn't already bomb their economy to ruins in the process of subjugation. That makes taking vassals a very situational thing. (For me, sometimes preferable when I have an entire species of xenophobic aliens I didn't want to waste time to integrate).

Second, the admin cap is mostly a suggestion. Going far above and beyond the cap is acceptable, as long as you scale your economy to match. (And easy to do, in the long term, because your population will be incredibly productive with all the bonuses available to you.) In fact, the admin cap is a buff compared to the previous system, where taking additional systems will already make you incur a tech penalty, if not the other penalties in the current system. Now, in 2.2, you have a buffer before you start eating those increased tech costs, which also buffs tall empires because they have a little more room to work with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One thing to note. AI, once vassalised, suddenly loses all their AI bonuses, making them weaker even if you didn't already bomb their economy to ruins in the process of subjugation.

Ok, good to know. That does make eating them over a few wars sound better than vassalizing them, then. Although I'll have you know I have never bombed any planet beyond the 25% devastation point where people start to die. I'm RP'ing a "tries to be nice" Empire of xenophiles.

That makes taking vassals a very situational thing. (For me, sometimes preferable when I have an entire species of xenophobic aliens I didn't want to waste time to integrate).

Well, as I said before, I vassalized an Empire and then integrated them for like 30 influence. They were still the owners of easily 30 systems. The whole thing saved me 3000 alloys and 1000 influence on that basis alone. That's not situational, that's just good sense.

Second, the admin cap is mostly a suggestion. Going far above and beyond the cap is acceptable, as long as you scale your economy to match.

Yes, I keep hearing that, but on the other hand, I've also been told to download the beta patch because the buffs in the trunk version are insufficient. Now, I don't want to go through the hassle of figuring out how to download a beta version (yes, yes, I know steam makes it easy. Still more effort than I want to put into it), but if I'm that bad off, I'd rather not go overboard with it.

And the thing is, I've taken a look a the systems I'd be getting - I'm just not sure they'd justify it. The previous guy has some amazing systems - 20+ resources in several of them, to my "5-6 at best". I don't think that is the case here, although I'll check again to make sure.

Grey Wolf

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes, I keep hearing that, but on the other hand, I've also been told to download the beta patch because the buffs in the trunk version are insufficient. Now, I don't want to go through the hassle of figuring out how to download a beta version (yes, yes, I know steam makes it easy. Still more effort than I want to put into it), but if I'm that bad off, I'd rather not go overboard with it.

And the thing is, I've taken a look a the systems I'd be getting - I'm just not sure they'd justify it. The previous guy has some amazing systems - 20+ resources in several of them, to my "5-6 at best". I don't think that is the case here, although I'll check again to make sure.

Grey Wolf

Old beta is now released as live a 2.2.2 anyway - so just update - and there will soon(TM) be a new beta for over the Christmas period with more fixes.



You know activating the beta is literally four mouse clicks, right? (One right (on game title), one left (Properties), one left (Betas) and a drop-down (stellaris_test). Five if you count the "close" button.

[Narkis]

So, I decided to attack a neighbour to make it my vassal, but it looks like it will be physically impossible - the war exhaustion ticks up about 1 point per month. I don't think I have the time to even go from one end of their land to the other before it reaches 100 and I get forced into Status Quo and I get nothing.

Now, last time I did this, the empire I was attacking had a mutual defence pack with another one, so even after I full-occupied them and destroyed their navy, it took 100% attrition to get them to accept vassalization (50 war score from occupation, 50 war score from attrition). This guy doesn't have any allies, so will I be able to win if I only occupy half their land? Or do I still need to get full occupation of every system to get that 50 war score when it's only one enemy?

(Alternatively, is there a way to slow down the attrition timer? I't s a bit ridiculous it went up before I even had ships outside my borders)

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I think that if you status quo with a vassalization war goal, you just turn all occupied systems and planets into a new vassal empire. Don't quote me on that though, I've never actually declared anything but a war of conquest.

edit:

Old beta is now released as live a 2.2.2 anyway - so just update - and there will soon(TM) be a new beta for over the Christmas period with more fixes.

Good news, I was sure they'd push it back for after the holidays.

[Artanis]

I think that if you status quo with a vassalization war goal, you just turn all occupied systems and planets into a new vassal empire. Don't quote me on that though, I've never actually declared anything but a war of conquest.

While I personally haven't tried it either, the 2.2.2 patch notes imply that it's supposed to work that way, but 2.2 kinda broke it for a while.

* Fixed vassalization wars not creating vassals, for real this time

On an unrelated note, naked corvettes appear to be a thing again. Some players have apparently been having piracy problems, and one solution that a couple people have come up with is to make a dedicated corvette design that is literally just an empty shell on an engine, and use those in their patrol fleets.

The more things change, right?

[Kaptin Keen]

I found if you focus on the admin cap, it's possible to keep pace - as in, keeping your admin cap above or ~equal to your empire size. This feels good, but I'm not sure it is.

Strange thing, in the same game: I'm at 2300, and I've met precisely one empire. I wonder if it's just the two of us (likely not, huh?).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know activating the beta is literally four mouse clicks, right? (One right (on game title), one left (Properties), one left (Betas) and a drop-down (stellaris_test). Five if you count the "close" button.

You left out the "I'm not paid to beta-test, and now I have to worry that it'll have some game-destroying bug" any time they push a new one.

Look, maybe Paradox is good about this, but no, as a general rule I don't use beta branches of any game because I've been burnt in the past.

I think that if you status quo with a vassalization war goal, you just turn all occupied systems and planets into a new vassal empire. Don't quote me on that though, I've never actually declared anything but a war of conquest.

Well, I'm pretty sure I got S-Q once and I got zilch but...

While I personally haven't tried it either, the 2.2.2 patch notes imply that it's supposed to work that way, but 2.2 kinda broke it for a while.

I'll give it another try, then. Although if having vassals is really useless as per Grif's post, maybe I won't bother.

Grey Wolf

[Grif]

Well, as I said before, I vassalized an Empire and then integrated them for like 30 influence. They were still the owners of easily 30 systems. The whole thing saved me 3000 alloys and 1000 influence on that basis alone. That's not situational, that's just good sense.

Where are you getting 3000 alloys and 1000 influence from? You don't need alloys to claim systems, and you certainly don't need alloys to capture starbases.

Influence I grant you, but it's not a one-to-one comparison either. Annexing means you gain control of the system(s) immediately, and you can set limited goals which is easy to capture.

Integration means you first need to vassalise them (usually in a long drawn out war), then wait for ten years, then wait for relations to tick up (if needed), then only start the integration process, which will take several more years. So to me, it's the opportunity cost of saving influence now, or having the resources the opponent has in their systems now. That said, I never had an empire which cost only 30 influence to integrate. Usually it's a percentage of what their empire would have cost had I annexed them outright, but never that low. What were you running, I am curious now.