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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    So this is going to sound dumb, but you'll have to excuse me as I don't know much about D&D.

    It was suggest tsukiko was able to do both parts of the ritual, so would it be possible for xykon to do both parts, assuming certain conditions were met?

    Xykon mentioned leveling up. this could mean a few things,

    1- a standard level up as a sorceror.
    2- a level up as a cleric or some other divine magic user
    3-some random cross class he chose to pursue, with no plot relevance other than he was bored.
    4- something else we neglected to come up with as a forum.
    5-ridiculous theory that he has become a demi-god off screen.


    1 seems most likely, so we can assume it to be the default position.

    2 is not an unreasonable idea, but what god would accept him? can he become another class when he is so high level as he's epic level?

    3 is not entirely unreasonable either, but why would he? maybe a bard or something to do for fun? but would a lich with no ability to laugh manically be able to sing?

    4 is the last realistic possibility, in that we are going to be thrown for a loop, and we will be wrong and rich will come up with something we just didn't think of.

    5...I don't even know what role demi gods play in this other than the dwarf demi god, and the other demi gods.

    how does 1 become a demi god, and would xykon be able to do that? if he could, would a demi god be able to grant himself the divine part of the ritual to unleash the snarl? I don't know.
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    0. Xykon mentioned gaining experiance, not leveling up. He likely wouldn't choose to blow a level of spellcasting on some other class if he did level up.

    1. This is what would happen. There is no reason to multiclass at his level.

    2. Yes, you can multiclass at any level, just leveling up becomes harder because you need much more experiance to gain a level. So, he would be at level one for a while in whatever class he decided to add. Gods that would accept him; there are probably a lot of evil gods that wouldn't mind. He doesn't seem very supportive of Clerics, calling praying for spells "playing Mother-may-I" to Redcloak. Even if he did multiclass, the ritual likely requires a very high level divine spellcaster, level 1 Cleric Xykon is not that.

    3. He might do something for no reason, but I very much doubt it.

    4. If we don't come up with it, how could we discuss it?

    5. To be a demigod, I believe that you need some amount of worship from a large amount of followers. That Dwarven king was able to ascend because he was deified in the dwarven religion, which led to a large amount of dwarven worship. Xykon, does not have the requisit amount of worship, and likely wouldn't be able to acquire it. He could yell at the Hobgoblins (or more likely, Redcloak) but they are dead set on worshipping The Dark One, and wouldn't like to share.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    More to the point, the second, divine part of the ritual is ingrained into mind of a high priest of the Dark One, who is unlikely to grant such title to a non-goblin.

    Xykon needs either Redcloak or another goblinoid high priest in good standing to perform the ritual.
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    The only divine casting class I can see Xykon even considering taking is Ur-Priest because its whole shtick is stealing power from the gods.

    He definitely fits the alignment requirement, and all but two of the required skills are class skills for sorcerer, and two of those (Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana)) are required for him to be able to research and cast epic spells, and we know he's done the latter.

    I still don't put good odds on it, but it at least makes some kind of sense.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Oh yeah. I forgot he didn't "gain a level".

    And cross classing would actually make it harder to level up. right?

    What if xykon made an undead guy like RC did, and raised a high level cleric? or is that not even possible? You recall those 3 fake xykons right? How does one go about doing that? And would xykon be able to just control the cleric to do the ritual, provided it knew the ritual?
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    Oh yeah. I forgot he didn't "gain a level".

    And cross classing would actually make it harder to level up. right?

    What if xykon made an undead guy like RC did, and raised a high level cleric? or is that not even possible? You recall those 3 fake xykons right? How does one go about doing that? And would xykon be able to just control the cleric to do the ritual, provided it knew the ritual?
    If the ritual were somehow modified, theoretically. He would still be unable to use the Gates the way he would want to though, as they would not be movable within the Material plane (the normal mortal world).
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariko View Post
    If the ritual were somehow modified, theoretically. He would still be unable to use the Gates the way he would want to though, as they would not be movable within the Material plane (the normal mortal world).
    Thats not quite what I meant.

    Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

    RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    Thats not quite what I meant.

    Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

    RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?
    Redcloak summoned a few skeletal monsters, one of which casts Cleric spells, put blue robes on them and called it a day. If Xykon can summon, then sure.
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    Thats not quite what I meant.

    Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

    RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?
    To add to the post above, it would be possible for Xykon to raise a humanoid skeleton or zombie and then awaken it. After that, due to being intelligent and humanoid in shape, they would advance via class levels rather than just adding more hitdice. The spell says the awakened undead creature only regains extraordinary abilities but doesn't say it can't go on to gain supernatural ones in other ways.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    If I'm not mistaken, the Divine half of the ritual doesn't exist on paper.

    Redcloak mentions this to Tsukiko when she is looking for the divine half of the ritual. The Mantle owner is imbued with the divine half of the ritual and it's never been committed to paper.

    Xykon would have to reverse engineer the entire half... and frankly... I don't think he would bother.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Redcloak summoned a few skeletal monsters, one of which casts Cleric spells, put blue robes on them and called it a day. If Xykon can summon, then sure.
    That was a huecuva, which is basically the divine spellcasting version of a lich. It's not something Redcloak should have been able to "summon" per RAW, so we don't actually know how he got that one to work for him.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    That was a huecuva, which is basically the divine spellcasting version of a lich. It's not something Redcloak should have been able to "summon" per RAW, so we don't actually know how he got that one to work for him.
    I just went back and reread that section to see if the heucuva could have let slip any possible motivations, but it looks like after Redcloak told it to go help the eye of fear and flame it basically just straight up disappears.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    If you mean disappears permanently, no.

    This thread is dedicated to massively overthinking "standard D&D element: the villains can have whatever lower-level-than-them undead the DM wants to throw at the PCs."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    So, what I'm gathering here is that RC didn't raise the 3 fake xykons, he "summoned" them.

    So then unless xykon were to take the crimson mantle from RC, he can't just put it on any ol'e cleric, and have it work? or could he kill RC and give it to a more naive goblin cleric that would be more willing to aid him, due to naivete?

    Basically, an undead cleric is out unless xykon makes an undead goblin cleric or some other rule bending comes into play?
    Vae Victus!

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    So then unless xykon were to take the crimson mantle from RC, he can't just put it on any ol'e cleric, and have it work? or could he kill RC and give it to a more naive goblin cleric that would be more willing to aid him, due to naivete?

    Basically, an undead cleric is out unless xykon makes an undead goblin cleric or some other rule bending comes into play?
    The Crimson Mantle is an artifact of the Dark One. We have no idea what would happen if a cleric who didn't worship the Dark One as their god were to put it on, because that's never been shown in comic--however, you'd have to assume that TDO would be intelligent enough to realise that someone hostile to his plans might attempt to put on the Mantle and have taken steps to ensure that wouldn't cause any problems for him. If I were DMing a game with something like this in, I'd just have it be totally inert unless worn by an appropriate person.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    One of the defining features of sorcerers is that they only know a limited number of spells, but they have more spell slots and can freely chose which spell to cast as needed. A wizard has more potential spells available in their spellbooks, but has to prepare their loadout at the beginning of the day and has less round-to-round flexibility. Clerics act like wizards, except they have access to all spells their gods make available for daily spell prep.

    Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are both spells, so Redcloak could've easily used them to create different types of undead things. Xykon could have potentially have picked one of those as a known spell, but it would then be permanently filling one of his limited spells known slots with a niche effect. It's better to count on a wizard or cleric for such niche utility spells, since the opportunity cost for them is negligible to none.

    And Tsukiko with a bunch more levels could indeed solo cast the ritual, if she could somehow extract the divine half from Redcloak's brain. Her whole build was devoted to bring a wizard/cleric hybrid (that's what mystic theurges are), and there are some decently steep startup costs there. In theory, Xykon could go around fighting epic planar beasts to gain a bunch more levels and pull that off too. In practice, the required detour through low cleric levels wouldn't do much while more sorcerer levels bring cool stuff right now.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    So, what I'm gathering here is that RC didn't raise the 3 fake xykons, he "summoned" them.
    Nope, he straight up says he made them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html
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    Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.
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    Flexibility is awesome, but I'd sacrifice that spellbook in a heartbeat to be a 24-7 flying hentai apocalypse demon.


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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Even if Xykon had access to divine magic, that wouldn't give him access to the ritual.

    Even if Xykon had access to the ritual, it wouldn't do him that much good, seeing as it gives control of the Gates to the patron deity of the divine caster, not to the caster themselves (see panel 11). He could kill Redcloak and give the Mantle to a different goblin (he's threatened to do exactly that at least once), but the ritual would still do the same thing under a new cleric as it would under Redcloak.

    Even control over the Gates is only so useful. Redcloak in SoD tells his brother that the Snarl actually can't be controlled at all. The ritual to control the Gates would give the Dark One the ability to choose which plane the Snarl is released onto, but it's a nonstop killing machine after that. If Xykon somehow managed to get himself in the driver's seat there, he'd basically get to use the Snarl once, on a plane he wouldn't be able to rule over after as there would be absolutely nothing left.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Even if Xykon had access to the ritual, it wouldn't do him that much good, seeing as it gives control of the Gates to the patron deity of the divine caster, not to the caster themselves (see panel 11).
    I'm wondering what it would do with an atheistic cleric or Ur-priest now.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    It's entirely possible that the ritual Redcloak has, custom-designed by the Dark One, would give control of the rift to the Dark One no matter who cast it, and another deity could modify it or come up with a ritual of their own, but would gain nothing by simply giving the unmodified ritual to a priest of theirs.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    Nope, he straight up says he made them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html
    Ah. Good to know. This contradicts what others had said.

    And as to the rest of what I'm reading, even if xykon had the ritual and the levels required, and some how did the thing himself, it would not pan out the way he had hoped.

    So, any loop holes that xykon could exploit?

    I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    "Whered you get the huecuva?"
    "I found it!"
    "Found it? In Azure City? The huecuva's undead!"
    "what do you mean?"
    "well this is a clerical zone"
    "The goblin may fly south with the sun or the hobgoblin or the bugbear may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land?"
    "are you suggesting huecuvas migrate?!"
    "not at all! They could be carried!"
    "what, carried by a goblin?"
    "He could grip it by the ribs!"
    "Its not a question of where he grips it! Its a simple question of size ratios! A small sized goblin could not carry a medium sized skeleton!"
    "well it doesn't matter!"
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?
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    Last edited by RatElemental; 2018-12-27 at 11:18 PM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    : Elan! You're not done with your arc yet!

    : Here we go again...

    : Who's this loser?

    : Loser? I'm the main villain of this story!

    : Is that so? Four words: Heightened Finger of Death.

    : Bit of a waste of your combat round, sir.
    well, he did say its a bit of a crap shoot when villains fight other villains.

    At least maybe he'll get a redemption arc and turn good like darth vader, by saving his son.

    or not.
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    Ah. Good to know. This contradicts what others had said.
    It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?
    perhaps he made them in the sense that vampire durkon was "made" by his sire.

    He used a divine spell that was home brewed, and raised 3 guys who were on board to cause some mayhem provided they played by the rules RC set.

    they could be set free and cause havoc at their leisure once the whole thing was said and done.

    That, or they were free willed originally and were brain washed into following RC.

    Is there any clarification from the giant on these 3 undead guys?
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    It's entirely possible that the ritual Redcloak has, custom-designed by the Dark One, would give control of the rift to the Dark One no matter who cast it, and another deity could modify it or come up with a ritual of their own, but would gain nothing by simply giving the unmodified ritual to a priest of theirs.
    8-Bit Theater had a moment like that where a character copies a spell that had just made them vomit out their organs, and tries to use it on the original caster...Only to find it wasn't a "make target vomit their organs out" spell, it was a "make one specific person vomit their organs out" spell, that person being them.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2018-12-28 at 02:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?
    When he said free-willed, I think he meant that they needed to be sentient enough to pass for Xykon. Obviously that didn't work, but that's more Xykon's fault...
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven777 View Post
    Sorcerers are also based on Charisma. If a Wizard studies the cheat codes to reality, the Sorcerer literally just glares or winks at the universe. And the universe listens.
    Quote Originally Posted by foobar1969 View Post
    Flexibility is awesome, but I'd sacrifice that spellbook in a heartbeat to be a 24-7 flying hentai apocalypse demon.


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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post

    I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?
    This is pretty much what the IFC has him set up to do.
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    Default Re: Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make".
    The same could be said of the Eye of Fear and Flame, and the Death Knight - neither of which have a detailed "This is how you make them with Create Undead/ Create Greater Undead" section in their descriptions.

    It would appear that Create Greater Undead is more powerful in the OOTS-verse.



    FF mentions that some huecavas have become that, through been subjected to a powerful curse by their patron deity. And they are also described as "having failed in their vows", and as being "punished for their heresies by being doomed to undeath".

    Others are good or neutral clerics who have changed their alignment to Evil and die without atoning. Druids, paladins, and monks are all capable of becoming huecavas.


    All in all, it would appear that choosing to become one is not the norm.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-12-28 at 06:28 AM.
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