[3.5] NPCs/Monster vs. Charm and Similar

[Thurbane]

Just wondering,

Do many DMs find issues in their games when Charm and similar effects become common for PCs?

The main two issues I encounter are as follows:

1. What does the creature know? If the Goblin in the dungeon is your new best bud due to a failed save, what happens when it gets quizzed about the dungeon layout, other inhabitants etc. If you're running a homebrew campaign or have written the adventure yourself it usually not too hard to wing it. But what about published adventures? I've seen many a game (from both sides of the DM screen) bog down while the DM tries to assess what info this creature plausibly has access to. Note: this is not exclusive to Charms and the like - it can also be the result of nonlethal damage or stabilizing dying enemies, then using Diplomacy or Intimidate on them, and other methods.

2. What do you do when the character has a small flock of loyal servants to throw into each combat? While your basic Charm might not do the job here, more powerful spells and effects certainly do. Our group found this to be a particular issue for Beguilers: while other casters have an opportunity cost involved in either memorizing an enchantment spell, or using up a Spell Known, Beguilers have a bucket-load of these at their fingertips every day (a couple of the DMs in my group had a soft ban on Beguilers at one point). Maybe it's our group's gaming style, but minionmancy never seems to be a thing PCs pursue - so that might be why it feels a bit weird to us?

I mean, neither of these has been insurmountable in our games, but I was curious how others handle it or what their experiences have been.

It's entirely possible these are non-issues for most tables, and our group is an anomaly

Cheers - T

[Eurus]

I definitely sympathize with problem 1. I know that my usual playgroup likes to spare/befriend the monsters as much as possible, so I try to come up with at least an approximate sense of who knows what before I start a new area, but I still get surprised by or forget stuff sometimes. If the players are really into roleplaying the conversation with this random goblin (and they well might be), you should have some time to figure out what information is available. If they're more concerned with getting the useful info and moving on, I try to just tell the players whatever I can think of quickly that seems relevant and appropriate, and then if something comes up later -- like the PCs are about to walk into a trap that their "friend" probably knew about -- I'll just say "hey, that goblin you were questioning earlier would have mentioned this".

[Psyren]

1) What's the monster's role in the dungeon? A sentry is unlikely to know much beyond his assigned patrol route, while an officer probably knows multiple routes as well as what's behind some of the higher-security doors. A lesser goblin or drudge, fit only for carrying (or being!) food for his betters, janitorial services and the like - likely keeps his head down even when he's allowed into sensitive areas, and won't know much about what's happening inside. But conversely, he probably knows some of the best crawlspaces to avoid patrols or to slack off from work for an hour or two, and would gladly share such info with a "friend."

2) Remember that both charm and dominate have limits. A charmed orc might help you subdue one of his fellows to keep an alarm from being raised, but charging alone into 5:1 odds in a fight to the death would be inherently suicidal; even dominate wouldn't allow for such an obviously self-destructive action. But improving those odds by having the party fight alongside him should work. Also keep in mind a creature's nature - a charmed elf probably wouldn't want to skewer his fellows for a new friend, but ogres and bugbears fight each other all the time anyway and thus would have fewer qualms about such acts.

[Fizban]

Do many DMs find issues in their games when Charm and similar effects become common for PCs?

Yes, immediately. Mind control magic at 1st level is a foundational part of DnD, and has never been a particularly good idea/is always a problem waiting to happen.

1. What does the creature know? If the Goblin in the dungeon is your new best bud due to a failed save, what happens when it gets quizzed about the dungeon layout, other inhabitants etc. If you're running a homebrew campaign or have written the adventure yourself it usually not too hard to wing it. But what about published adventures? I've seen many a game (from both sides of the DM screen) bog down while the DM tries to assess what info this creature plausibly has access to. Note: this is not exclusive to Charms and the like - it can also be the result of nonlethal damage or stabilizing dying enemies, then using Diplomacy or Intimidate on them, and other methods.

And this is one of the reasons: even if the players/PCs aren't planning on "mind controlling" people, if they want to "humanely" get information out of prisoners, or indeed guarantee any information out of prisoners, the answer is the same at 1st level as if they were aiming to go full dominator route: Charm Person. Detect Thoughts doesn't exist until 2nd level, is thus more costly, and specifically doesn't just let you get answers to questions- making Charm blatantly more powerful in multiple ways.*

If the DM is running published module I would argue they have less excuse to not know what the creature knows than a sandbox/improv campaign, because they have the module right there. And should have already read it, and taken notes, including on things like how the mobs interact and what they know, particularly if the players have mind control magic. Wacky spells and powers that demand you know the preferred brand of underwear of the last 20 people who looked at an object, those are a problem. Random mooks, the default answer is that they're mooks and don't know anything useful, because the person in charge of the secret badness is competent- so mooks know what the DM wants them to know.

I have a partial solution to the prisoner problem in adding a simple 1st level spell that makes the target answer one question- that way the party doesn't have to use full mind control magic to get simple information, and you can leave Compelling Question in while banishing all the continuous control spells from the game if desired. The only solutions for the DM not knowing what their monsters know are either gitting gud or not using monsters that can be questioned.

This solution is then followed by a 3rd level spell for another non-minion reason people will want Charm Person- getting people off their backs when they're caught. A 3rd level Forget spell, which can be dispelled, and a 1st level Dispel useful for removing it/other low-cl mind control, I think should patch up the system about as well as you can before changing the control spells directly.

2. What do you do when the character has a small flock of loyal servants to throw into each combat? While your basic Charm might not do the job here, more powerful spells and effects certainly do. Our group found this to be a particular issue for Beguilers: while other casters have an opportunity cost involved in either memorizing an enchantment spell, or using up a Spell Known, Beguilers have a bucket-load of these at their fingertips every day (a couple of the DMs in my group had a soft ban on Beguilers at one point). Maybe it's our group's gaming style, but minionmancy never seems to be a thing PCs pursue - so that might be why it feels a bit weird to us?

First you run charm effects strictly, because it's a million miles away from sacrificial minion- as is Dominate, because the standard spell is completely broken after the target makes one successful save to resist an act "against their nature," and wouldn't you know it? Doing stuff selflessly for some rando is particularly against the nature of all Evil creatures (ironically Charm is stronger there because it makes you their "best friend," a category which an Evil person would still protect, but still not necessarily roll over for- an Evil protector is liable to murder anything that looks at you funny unless you win initiative). Even divulging simple information, in a world where the mook's only chance against monsters and adventurer's may lie in the the elements of surprise, terrain, and ambush in their own territory, can easily be a capital offense and thus something that no mook will do under Charm: they'll try to talk your way in to see the boss, stand between you and the other mooks if a fight breaks out, but actually fighting their fellow mooks means either they're exiled, never find work again, or just plain executed, all of which go above Charm power.

Other than that you can institute simple limits on HD control pools the same as with undead, though with such limits in play the mind-controller will naturally feel that they are "entitled" to this control pool and that their "minions" shouldn't be able to resist their charm and dominate orders so easily. 1 HD/level is plenty. While you're at it, add a line that subjects can never voluntarily submit to mind control (and thus always get a save, because independent minds inherently want to be independent) so every target gets a new roll every time they need to renew the effect.

Increasing the casting time to 1 full round so it doesn't land until the start of your next turn, assuming you're not interrupted, is a nerf that tons of control spells could use (direct or battlefield)- it's what Dominate has, and there's no reason 1st level Charm should escape it. This is a thing where the early 3.x designers used it surprisingly often, but later designers stopped bothering for obvious reasons: it's a mechanic that deliberately makes a spell less convenient and useful in order to simulate older editions' interruptible spells, and why would anyone want to make their cool new spell worse? (Because game balance?)

And finally of course, you just get rid of the easy mind control, remove it entirely, selectively, or delay it. It's only suitable for a 1st level game at all because DnD starts out "gritty with spooky magic that just flat works on normal people," and goes from there- it's a deliberate choice that magic is shockingly powerful in some ways even at 1st, which you can just change. In other systems you would not normally get hours of control over anything but an actual no-nothing unrelated peasant (I'm sure Vampire: The Masquerade lets you charm your food easily, but I doubt it works so well on other supernaturals the GM has actual combat stats for, and there's a lot less than 20 levels). If you don't want X to be easy, then make it harder. As with so many problem spells, just kicking everything up two spell levels makes a huge difference, that slide of 4 character levels pushing pretty much everything up a level band, and thus quite likely to the end or entirely out of of the level band a given campaign is going to reach:

Charm Person at 3rd, spooky but limited and only on Humanoids, significant "crowd control" removing one foe and likely occupying another, at the level where crowd control gets serious. Suggestion at 5th, works on anything but single order, at the level where absolute effects like Teleport redefine the limits of reality. Charm Monster at 6th, works on anything but now solidly in the latter half of the game, alongside the weaker ranged instant kill spells. Dominate Person at 7th makes a person your slave, alongside Limited Wish, Finger of Death/Destruction, Greater Teleport, Banishment, Forcecage, Power Word: Blind, and Control Weather. And the highest level Mass charms and unending Thrall spells just get kicked out for going over 9th. Such a change would probably go with a little less harsh rulings, but if the point is to nerf a caster who thinks personally mind-controlling an army of level appropriate foes is appropriate, you can of course stay as strict as you need to.

If the Significance of an ability is enough that people will use it sometimes when appropriate, it doesn't matter if they think it's weak as a 1st option- that means you've got the power level down so that it's not a first option. Harshly adjudicated and higher level basic mind control spells with low HD control limits which require significant effort to re-apply can still be devastating, just not all the time as a 1st option. Which is really more appropriate for a co-op game where one of the players has to run the other side.

*Come to think of it- is DnD the only setting I know of where you get control before thought-reading? I suppose in Harry Potter where the author invents single spell control before they invent much more subtle mind-reading, or in Wheel of Time where Compulsion is a lost art and if you want to get someone's thoughts you pull them into the World of Dreams and watch? I feel like usually stories with rules-up nuanced building start with sensing emotions and thoughts before you can control them. For a system like DnD where all magic is cut into little rankings and mind-reading is so low on the list, it just seems flat-out wrong that mind-control is lower on the list, even if it is just a "push" of Charm.

[Psyren]

Doing stuff selflessly for some rando is particularly against the nature of all Evil creatures (ironically Charm is stronger there because it makes you their "best friend," a category which an Evil person would still protect, but still not necessarily roll over for- an Evil protector is liable to murder anything that looks at you funny unless you win initiative).

For a lot of evil creatures, doing things for someone they see as a superior is perfectly within their nature. The Abyss and Hades rely on a loose hierarchy of intimidation and might-makes-right. So I don't think every evil monster would get to flout a dominate simply because it came from a heroic PC - the PC successfully dominated them, after all, so they're clearly stronger. And lawful evil monsters are even more naturally inclined to follow orders.

The "obviously self-destructive" clause still limits what you can make them do of course.

[Puke]

My players use mind controling effects every game. They chose to manipulate their foes rather than destroy them.

They rely on charm, dominate person, dominate monter, undead creation etc... they use torture, and bargain if needed.

The creatures they befriend or they dominate will help them at the best of their abilities. And they will make mistakes, sometimes leading the PCs into bad situations, because they try to help them in good faith, but they won't give away informations unless asked.

I know in advance what any NPC is supposed to know.

I ran Dungeon of the Mad mage. Some creatures only know about the level they were currently on, stating clearly to the PC they never stepped into lower levels. Sometimes, they even only explored part of this level in the dungeon. So they would give away only limited amount of information.

Remember a charmed creature will truly try to help, sharing maybe more information than asked.
A dominated creature, however, might try to resist the effect, and share only what is asked from it.

[rel]

The first thing to remember is that a charm isn't mind control and shouldn't be treated as such.
Your friend the guard isn't going to let you into the restricted area, join you in assaulting the other guards, hand over their gear, tell you pass codes and patrol routes or even turn their back and let you clobber them.

Like illusion magic, a charm is powerful if deployed in the right way at the right time, but it's far from an automatic win.

Charm effects were copied largely unchanged from earlier editions of the game. They make reference to NPC attitudes, which were never properly defined in 3.5.

In those original definitions, the attitude 'friendly' is actually quite far from slavish devotion and a lot closer to 'probably won't stab you'.

Keeping combat fast is best handled with a fairly strict time limit (1 or 2 minutes at low levels) on turn times. That way no archetype is unfairly singled out and people willing to put the work in can use whatever build they want.

NPC knowledge is best addressed as part of dungeon design. Realism is boring, but internal consistency is something to aim for.
Figure out what NPCs get up to when the PC's aren't around and what they know will be self evident.