OOTS #1150 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Proclaiming an ideology strikes me as irrelevant to alignment in OOTS.

Maybe, but it does offer perspective on hat mindset which causes her actions. Alignment is about one’s values and while it’s possible to say one thing and do another, she isn’t contradicting herself here.

[NobleCuriosity]

Did anybody address this? It seems like a really good question to me.

Why thanks! I went and looked up the 3.5e deity rules online. The following two abilities seemed relevant:

“”Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.””

And perhaps most important:

“”Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.””

The problem with this literal reading of the rules is that, since Haley is now also a worshipper if Thor (assuming that counts), Thor should have been able to just TELL the order about the vampire instead of sending a storm after the ship. So, I would guess that one of the whole specific rules associated with the Godsmoot and everything is that they can’t just do that.



Also of note is this ability Hel should also have access to:
“”Block Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank””

Still, I’d be surprised if nothing EVER came of this revelation, so it’s cool to speculate on other ways Thor might get or give a clarification here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I imagined Neutral as the floor, and Good and Evil as two separate parallel bars above the floor.

OK, that still doesn't make the "making Neutral broader" comment any more logical. Wouldn't one of said bars being lower while the other being higher even out?

Grey Wolf

[King of Nowhere]

So, what she said didn’t strike you as evil in the least?

I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral

[zimmerwald1915]

OK, that still doesn't make the "making Neutral broader" comment any more logical. Wouldn't one of said bars being lower while the other being higher even out?

Grey Wolf

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.

[Jasdoif]

So if, god forbid, he were to die because of her monumental stupidity, does he go to Hel or Valhalla?

Since you ask....

If you really need an answer, let's say that babies go wherever their mother is/will go, because of the psychic umbilical cord that stretches through the Uterine Plane. When you get older and determine your own alignment, marauding githyanki doctors with special silver clamps cut the cord. Because why not?

[Fyraltari]

I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral

Their hypocrisy is not my problem.

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.

D&D treats Good and Evil as equal and opposites (I think) so having a lower bar for one than the other is wrong. And if you are talking about real-life... I don’t want this conversation tonight.

[Rrmcklin]

I thought Zimmer's point was pretty obvious, if he thinks the Giant holds it's easier to be Good while harder to be Evil than their person standard, than it follows there's a lot more leeway as to how horrible someone can be without actually crossing the threshold from Neutral to Evil.

[Kish]

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.

This is hard to picture because it has both the Good and Evil bars in the same direction, above the floor, with on the floor being always Neutral. If you start on the floor and go five feet up, does that make you Good or does it make you Evil?

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.

If not, I'm afraid I'm kind of lost.

For my part, Rich often classifies characters as north of where I would put them. No expanded Neutral, since that would include classifying characters as south of where I would put them, just characters (Enor, Gannji, maybe Girard) who he declares Neutral and I would call Evil, and characters (Shojo...and most versions of Miko) who he declares Good and I would call Neutral. And at least one character (Good Deeds Gone Unpunished) who he declares Good and I would call Evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

D&D treats Good and Evil as equal and opposites

It treats their relative powers over the world as equal and mostly opposite (mostly in that Law-Chaos applies too, and it gets muddled). But it does not, nor has it ever implied, to the best of my (rather limited) knowledge, that an individual will find being Good or Evil equally easy or hard. Usually, Evil is easier and therefore more numerous, but infights so much that it is matched by the lesser numbers of Good.

Grey Wolf

[King of Nowhere]

I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral

Their hypocrisy is not my problem.

I explained myself poorly.
I don't say that those who think hilgya is CN are the hypocrite murderhobos.
I am saying that those who say hilgya is CN have seen those murderhobos at their tables (or heard of them) and they got persuaded that's how CN is meant to be.

[The_Weirdo]

Snip

Impoverishing a sex trafficker ring is a good action. If her clan is composed solely or mainly of people like those three depicted, they are a sex trafficking ring.

I am saying that those who say hilgya is CN have seen those murderhobos at their tables (or heard of them) and they got persuaded that's how CN is meant to be.

Nope.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.

Rather, take the two bars as being next to each other, rather than on top of one another. The floor is dead neutral; as you move away from the floor, you gravitate toward one of the bars.

Floor to Evil bar is Neutral. Evil bar to ceiling is Evil. Floor to Good bar is Neutral. Good bar to ceiling is Good.

Or, if you will, picture a bar graph. The bars have their bases on the X axis, and extend into the positive Y coordinates. The end of each bar at its positive Y coordinate represents the threshold between Neutrality and non-Neutrality, while both bars represent the range of Neutrality.

If you really must, take the Evil bar and swap the Y coordinate to negative. The sense is the same.

[oppyu]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Meanwhile Haley and Elan with the questionable Wisdom scores are happier than anyone and fully committed to an ethos of freedom and charity. After reasonable expenses.

[Obscuraphile]

*Unrelated comment*

Sorry, totally off topic, but I have to ask: is the Old English pun in your name intentional?

[Ruck]

Good riddance to that character. Welcome back, Durkon.

Hilgya, Thor, Odin, Minrah, or Greg?

The rebel trees that have turned against their evil kin to join the side of righteousness.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Wisdom, broadly, means the ability to select the path that most successfully matches your alignment amongst all choices (Intelligence gives you the most efficient path, and Charisma the one that will look best to others). If you are Evil, that means that you are efficient at finding evil ways to solve your problems.

Interestingly, the sunk cost fallacy that afflicts RC tends to be found in otherwise intelligent people in RL - it is a consequence of the inability to accept that, intelligent and wise as you are, you can still make mistakes. So, if anything, as Dumbledore puts it (slightly paraphrased), "the more intelligent you are, the huger your mistakes"

Grey Wolf

[Demon Prince]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.

[faustin]

A comeuppance for a secondary character isn't necessary. Though, for example, in Miko's case it was a well constructed element of the narrative. (Likewise with Tarquin, in terms of his being so frustrated that he didn't get his way as the order sailed off into the sunset on the Mechane)

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead, or Kubota having a undignified execution and being mostly forgotten by everyone, or Crystal being owned twice by Harley...

The Giant has no problem delivering karmic deaths even to secundary characters.

[Fyraltari]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.

It’s called «*character development*».

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.

Or, maybe, Durkon has developed as a character and learnt that his passive outlook was not the best way forwards.

Grey Wolf

[oppyu]

Wisdom, broadly, means the ability to select the path that most successfully matches your alignment amongst all choices (Intelligence gives you the most efficient path, and Charisma the one that will look best to others). If you are Evil, that means that you are efficient at finding evil ways to solve your problems.

Interestingly, the sunk cost fallacy that afflicts RC tends to be found in otherwise intelligent people in RL - it is a consequence of the inability to accept that, intelligent and wise as you are, you can still make mistakes. So, if anything, as Dumbledore puts it (slightly paraphrased), "the more intelligent you are, the huger your mistakes"

Grey Wolf

Makes sense. We do also see that with Vaarsuvius, but I'd associated that with their high INT and low WIS. But WIS being more your capacity to live up to and be certain in your ideals explains a lot of the behaviour in OOTS. The clerics in OOTS are firmly committed to their ideals, even if they aren't always effective in achieving them.

[MReav]

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead, or Kubota having a undignified execution and being mostly forgotten by everyone, or Crystal being owned twice by Harley...

The Giant has no problem delivering karmic deaths even to secundary characters.

Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, Zz'dtri, arguably Thog...

[Wowlock]

Someone take that precious baby away from Hilyga before she ruins her with Hela' teachings...

[Morty]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Meanwhile Haley and Elan with the questionable Wisdom scores are happier than anyone and fully committed to an ethos of freedom and charity. After reasonable expenses.

The D&D Wisdom attribute doesn't actually mean anything, least of all anything we'd more conventionally call "wisdom". There's no real point trying to map it to being actually enlightened in any way. Inasmuch as Wisdom means anything, it means being strong-willed and perceptive at the same time, somehow. Hilgya has plenty of strong will, perception and insight not so much.

[oppyu]

Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, Zz'dtri, arguably Thog...

Even to the extent of Shojo being undone by his oh so clever manipulation and subversion of the Paladin order. It's not really a karmic comeuppance since he's Chaotic Good, but there's some irony there.

[Shoelessgdowar]

The Exarch and a few others...

So not just the nameless one Gontor* took with him then.

Another vampire is still unaccounted for.

So either two is enough to qualify as "a few" or there are yet more spawns. My guess of Firmament not being completely rid of vampires by the end of the Order's stay here looks less improbable than one strip ago.

The exact definition of Few is a small number, usually two or at most three.

These are not "arguably" Evil actions. They are just straight-up Evil.
Quick, somebody tell the feds to let Bernie Madoff out of jail since intentionally bankrupting people for personal gain is apparently a Good thing!*
*Sarcasm, obviously.

Bankrupting them was not for personal gang. The personal gain was a bonus, like bringing in a criminal and getting a reward for it. Bankrupting them was about destroying their evil empire, which makes it a good action, then exploiting it reduces its goodness and makes it closer to Neutral (like capturing a known criminal, waiting until the warrants for their arrest add a bounty or other reward, then turning them in... Not evil, but no longer pure and good).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bankrupting them was not for personal gang. The personal gain was a bonus, like bringing in a criminal and getting a reward for it. Bankrupting them was about destroying their evil empire, which makes it a good action, then exploiting it reduces its goodness and makes it closer to Neutral (like capturing a known criminal, waiting until the warrants for their arrest add a bounty or other reward, then turning them in... Not evil, but no longer pure and good).

Meanwhile, in the comic the rest of us are reading and discussing, she bankrupted them to pay for her divorce (and discovered that as a bonus, it made it easier to contest).

Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, arguably Thog...

He's even on record saying that it is something he pays close attention to.

Jasdoif, if you wouldn't mind, can you find me the quote about characters deaths/ends coming about due to their flaws? (as you can tell, I'm in desperate need to refresh my memory of his exact phrasing)

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

Welp. There go two of Durkon's levels.

[Skull the Troll]

Since you ask....

OMG where was that in the last 77 pages of comments? Thats the perfect quote.

This is hard to picture because it has both the Good and Evil bars in the same direction, above the floor, with on the floor being always Neutral. If you start on the floor and go five feet up, does that make you Good or does it make you Evil?

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.

If not, I'm afraid I'm kind of lost.

For my part, Rich often classifies characters as north of where I would put them. No expanded Neutral, since that would include classifying characters as south of where I would put them, just characters (Enor, Gannji, maybe Girard) who he declares Neutral and I would call Evil, and characters (Shojo...and most versions of Miko) who he declares Good and I would call Neutral. And at least one character (Good Deeds Gone Unpunished) who he declares Good and I would call Evil.

Zimmer is using Absolute Value for her integers. Its only the difference from zero that matters. Why she chose to do that instead of using the agreed upon arrangement from the last 50 years however...

The opposite. I found it odd that he didn't mention it once to Durkon, not even in a "And we have no idea what this means!" way.

(EDIT
Yes that's a good possiblity. This way he can plays the exposition fairy later on when he's saner.)


Frankly if anyone still has doubts after her third and second-to-last lines here, nothing will change their mind.

Indeed. I came into the forums just to see how the Weirdo justified "poor misunderstood Hilgya."