Giving another chance to a difficult player?

[Jon_Dahl]

The advice that I see frequently see here is that if you have problems with a player, talk to the player. If that does not help, don't play with that player. However, maybe people change. Maybe they don't. And this is the topic of this thread: people change, but can we go back?

My first DM introduced me to D&D in 2002. I fell in love with the game. However, as the years passed, I noticed that we didn't get along very well. I guess one of the biggest problems with him was that he was very competitive and wanted to 'win' the game. His strong personality compounded to the situation. My guess is that he has to have one of the lowest agreeableness I have seen on a D&D player. He also enjoyed lying to people. An example: He knew that I liked to eat insects, so he told me a story of his friend who had bought crickets from the city's only Chinese restaurant (I wasn't local to the area), but they weren't on the menu. I went there and I wanted to buy fried crickets, and even though I wasn't offensive at all, I guess the restaurant owner took it pretty badly, especially since I said that my friend had confirmed that they sold crickets. The whole thing had been a lie and my friend admitted it afterwards. This kind of constant monkey business happened every time we played D&D.

What happened was that I found other players and without any drama, our ways separated, but we remained friends even though it was very, very, very difficult to tolerate his behavior.

Now this guy has been asking me if he could join my games. Over 3 years have passed since I have played with him, which was a one-off, and 10 years have passed since we played together regularly. He says that he has changed and that I am being to hard on him. He says that he had his best gaming experiences when I was the game master (i.e. the DM). He also says that he is done with being an ***hole. One of my players supports him.

What to think about this? After you have decided that you can't play with someone, can you still give that person a second chance?

[DeTess]

He might have actually changed, as this seems to have covered quite some time. I'd consider inviting him next time you run a one-shot, and see how things work out.

[Knaight]

Claims that someone has changed are generally more believable when they're not coming from people with a history of habitual lying. Just putting that out there.

[Quertus]

Well. That's a doozy.

I suppose I'd recommend a) inviting him for the occasional short adventure, and b) hanging around him outside the game. Do these - perhaps for a few years "until the current campaign finishes" - in order to see if he's really changed before risking everyone's fun in a larger campaign.

[Pauly]

He says; “I’ve changed”I am skeptical
He says “I’ve changed” and someone else vouches for him. I am a little less skeptical.
He says “I was an a-hole and I”m sorry for hurting you and others. I have changed”. I am going to give one chance grudgingly.
He says; “I was an a-hole and I”m sorry for hurting you and others. I have changed” and someone I trust vouches for him. He gets a clean slate.

[zlefin]

What age is he at now? that helps assess the chance that he has in fact grown out of his bad behavior.
I'd say there's a good chance he hasn't changed, and at least a mild chance that he has, since there's one other person vouching and it's been a number of years (long enough to allow a second chance). I'd be inclined to give him a shot, but note that he's on a short leash.

[TerryHerc]

I suppose I'd recommend a) inviting him for the occasional short adventure

In my experience, people don't change as much as we hope they might. I would suggest running a one shot, and ensure it has encounters that you think would trigger the behaviors you don't appreciate. I suspect that by the end of the session, you will know if this person will fit your current play style. You may also consider including players from your main group, or find some other new players to try a game as well.

Afterwards, if you have decided the person is not right for the group, you may consider telling them why. If you do, I suggest being specific about the behaviors and describe why you feel they are incompatible with your current game.

[Darth Ultron]

What to think about this? After you have decided that you can't play with someone, can you still give that person a second chance?

I'm for second chances. I'm the first one for kicking someone out of a game in seconds. Though I also think second chances are a good idea. Often people are used to acting like a jerk...and far, far, far, far too many people let them get away with it. To have someone 'suddenly' tell a person they can't be a jerk can be quite a shock. Sometimes, it is just enough to shock someone to act normal. Amazingly the big jerk can at least act normal for the couple hours to play the game.

Though I do only give one second chance.

[Xuc Xac]

It's possible that he's changed. However, in my experience, it's more likely that he's figured out that saying "I've changed my ways" is a good way to delay being kicked to the curb.

If he was a jerk when he was a teenager, he'll probably be a jerk until he's older than 25. 25 seems to be the breaking point where people are actually mature enough to say "I was an idiot when I was younger" and genuinely mean it.

[Velaryon]

I would talk this over with the rest of your current group. Do any of them know this person, other than the one who is vouching for them? Adding a potential problem player to a game affects all of them, so they all deserve input on the decision. For those who don't know this person, I would explain the issues you had in the past, then listen to what the other friend has to say about why they support him, and come to a decision as a group.

If you decide to give them another chance, I would talk to them and go over expectations. Make sure they understand what your group considers an appropriate level of competitiveness, and that you expect honesty from them. If it works out, great! People do sometimes change. If it doesn't, well you tried. You can always kick them out again. I would not recommend giving them a third chance, though.

[Malifice]

If you're friends then yeah go for it.

If it doesnt work out, then have a mature chat about it.

It almost certainly wont work out. I've been around long enough to know a leopard never changes its spots.

[opaopajr]

The Cleric spell Forgiveness is a 10th level spell, castable by anyone regardless of class, but requires complex (yet readily available) components and a touch of divine intervention. Usually the components are contrition, penance (often restitution, if possible,) and a request for absolution by the wronged party before the spell can be complete for ritual offering. During this time however the spell can be interrupted if there are missing components, and/or the caster is successfully attacked before the offering is accepted by the divine, (in 5e you may substitute Concentration checks).

[FireJustice]

As being the GM/DM is almost a thankless job.
And our group never had a low count on players (on contraire)
I vote, life is to short for forgiviness.

Really, what is in for you?
Being the better man and let him play?
At least he needs to buy pizza and beverages for a year if he wants to get a chance.

[Dimers]

I used to be an arrogant jerkface who needed to be right at other people's expense. Now people describe me as compassionate and a great team player. People can change that much. (Though I like Knaight's point )

[RazorChain]

Your best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

[opaopajr]

Your best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

... and caterpillars are so mysterious.

People can change... into xenomorphs if the right facehugger is around!

[Quertus]

You may also consider including players from your main group, or find some other new players to try a game as well.

Afterwards, if you have decided the person is not right for the group, you may consider telling them why. If you do, I suggest being specific about the behaviors and describe why you feel they are incompatible with your current game.

Yeah, I would definitely have most / all of your normal crew around for the one-shot.

While I generally agree with the idea of being very specific about issues, dealing with a habitual liar is perhaps the one time where I'll shy away from agreeing to such a suggestion. If they claim to have changed, but haven't, I wouldn't want to give them pointers on how better to pretend to have changed.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Is there a reason to give this person another chance? Were they particularly enjoyable to have around?

[Jay R]

Give him a shot. The best case scenario is that yiu help a friend to continue to improve, and have a great gaming buddy. The worst case scenario is that he messes up a session or two.

That's a good bet.

[Honest Tiefling]

Claims that someone has changed are generally more believable when they're not coming from people with a history of habitual lying. Just putting that out there.

Yeeeeaaaah. This is very likely, but you could be missing a fine player if you don't try to reach out. I mean, most of us were probably terrible players in the beginning. However, I suggest that the first step is to talk to the player that supports them. See what they are like in other areas or games. Why does this player want them in the game? Are they friends? Related? Got other obligations that makes the player feel like he has to extend an invitation?

Secondly, talk to the player. He might have enjoyed your games, but make it clear you don't want overly competitive behavior. If he's dismissive or insulting to 'care bear' players...Well you have an answer. Be clear, polite but firm. If you call him out on his past behavior, he might show his true colors.

I'd also make the game a one shot. Hell, get an adventure you want to run that's short if you can. Something short so you can ditch it if he turns out to still be a doofus. Also, so you don't lose a lot of work if it turns into a **** show.

[Friv]

Echoing the suggestion to do a one-shot or short (3-5 session) mini-campaign, and invite him and some of your reliable players. It's a good way to see how he's playing these days, and whether he's legitimately going to make an effort.

[Rynjin]

I'm gonna give the hypocritical advice (I'm a grudge-y person and cut ties with a habitual liar "friend" a few years back myself...eerie) and say give hikm one shot. It's been 10 years, and you don't lose much for giving him it, especially if you run the game at a neutral location. Or his house. Really, anywhere but your own home or usual gaming spot, since cutting ties with someone is way easier if they can't physically track you down again.

Basically, give him a shot but have an ironclad escape and abandonment plan.

[Kyrell1978]

It's possible that he's changed. However, in my experience, it's more likely that he's figured out that saying "I've changed my ways" is a good way to delay being kicked to the curb.

If he was a jerk when he was a teenager, he'll probably be a jerk until he's older than 25. 25 seems to be the breaking point where people are actually mature enough to say "I was an idiot when I was younger" and genuinely mean it.

That pretty much follows since 25 is around the time the brain finishes developing. If a person is an ass after that, it's usually permanent.

[zinycor]

I say give the guy a chance, Satan knows I am not the same ******* I was 10 years ago (A different ******* xD)

[Jay R]

Certainly, give him a chance. And forgive him, 100%. But that doesn't mean give him a free pass; it means starting over again.

The most likely scenario is that he is somewhat better, but still problematic. You have three facts to consider:

1. Those games he was such a problem in? He says they were "his best gaming experiences".
2. He's looking for a game, which means nobody is playing with him right now.
3. His strong personality will still compound any negative aspects of his gaming.

Neither of these is definitive, and I repeat: I think you should give him a chance. But be ready to deal with it if he is still a problem, even if he is less of a problem than he used to be.