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    Post By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    The subclass on the homebrewery

    Edit: whoops, forgot the spells.
    Spell Levels Spells
    1st Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
    2nd Dragon's Breath, Silence
    3rd Elemental Weapon, Haste
    4th Arcane Eye, Leomund's Secret Chest
    5th Arcane Hand, Control Winds
    Armor Master
    You gain proficiency with medium and heavy armor.
    Unfortunately this is clearly dip bait, but it does mean you don't have to multiclass into cleric for this proficiency. And I really like having a mechanical benefit for strength based warlocks.

    Infuse Element
    At 1st level, you have a pool of d6s that you can spend to empower your strikes. The number of dice in the pool equals 1 + your warlock level.

    When you hit with a weapon attack, you can infuse your weapon with draconic power, spending dice from the pool. The maximum number of dice you can spend at once equals your Charisma modifier (minimum of one die). Roll the dice you spend, add them together, and increase the damage by that ammount. The damage type the dice add is based on your patron, as shown on the table below.
    Spoiler: Damage Type Table
    Show
    D6 Die Damage
    Patron Type Damage Type
    Black Acid
    Blue Lightning
    Brass Fire
    Bronze Lightning
    Copper Acid
    Gold Fire
    Green Poison
    Red Fire
    Silver Cold
    White Cold

    Your pool regains all expended dice when you finish a long rest.
    Lots of options, and it scales with warlock level. The pools of dice is the same size as that of a warlock with the Celestial patron, but this pool is for harming instead of healing. Not sure it scales properly; the AU Circle of Twilight uses d10s, and they work with spells.

    Extra Attack
    Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
    I don't know what would fit better, but I don't really want to limit the subclass to bladelocks.

    Draconic Presence
    At 10th level, you gain damage resistance of the same type dealt by your pool of dice.

    Additionally, as an action, you can attempt to frighten up to 10 creatures of your choice within 30 feet of you. These creatures must make a wisdom saving throw, or be frightened of you for 1 minute at the end of each of their turns, they can make another saving throw, ending the condition on a success.

    Once you have used this ability, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.
    I'm not sure the damage resistance fits with the rest of this. Otherwise I think a weakened form of a dragon's frightful presence fits well.

    Overwhelming Element
    Starting at 14th level, you can transform into a draconic form for 1 minute. During this time, you have immunity to the damage type of your draconic patron, and deal 2d6 damage of the same type as your pool of d6s on each melee weapon attack.
    To help the subclass's damage keep up at higher levels. Larger burst damage than a rogue can deal, but it takes most of your resources to do that, so I'm not sure how to weigh it.

    And pair of subclass specific invocations.
    Spoiler: Eldritch Invocations
    Show
    Claws of the Beast
    Prerequisite: The Dragon patron

    You grow long claws, which deal 1d6 + your strength modifier in slashing damage on a hit.

    Dragon's Eye
    Prerequisite: The Dragon patron, 5th level

    You can cast See Invisibility at will, without expending a spell slot.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2019-01-04 at 12:08 AM.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Looks cool.

    I noticed the Medium Armor, but didn't see shield as well, so isn't too unbalanced. Only 2 points better than Draconic Sorcerer.

    Note: I wouldn't let Extra Attack stack with the Thirsting Blade Invocation.

    Wish I had some Playtesters. >Sigh<
    Technically proficiency with medium armor and shields are supposed to go together. How big of an issue would granting that proficiency be?

    I'm also not entirely clear what you're comparing between the draconic sorcerer and the dragon patron. Allowing for shields would make a dragon warlock have 2 more AC than a draconic sorcerer, but you mentioned I didn't give that proficiency.

    Additionally, the same part of the multiclassing rules that says Extra Attack doesn't stack with itself specifically says it doesn't stack with Thirsting Blade either. So that's already taken care of (ie. I'm not giving 3 attacks per action at 6th level).


    Looking back over the subclass for the first time in a awhile, I gave it Haste, which is completely broken on a warlock. Fly and Fear are already on the class spell list, and a few of the other comparable spells are equally broken. Fireball and Lightning bolt imply specific types of dragons.

    Best I can come up with:
    Beacon of Hope
    Clairvoyance
    Glyph of Warding

    The Claws of the Beast Invocation looks a bit weak, on the other hand.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Technically proficiency with medium armor and shields are supposed to go together. How big of an issue would granting that proficiency be? (1)

    I'm also not entirely clear what you're comparing between the draconic sorcerer and the dragon patron.(2) Allowing for shields would make a dragon warlock have 2 more AC than a draconic sorcerer, but you mentioned I didn't give that proficiency.
    (1) This goes into why I don't like Hexblade.
    (More in my Ancient Realms thread)

    TL;DR: By allowing both Medium Armor (which all Warlocks get) and shield, the only thing stopping a Player from getting AC 19 at First level is >money<.

    And since Half Plate is only 750 gold, most Warriors can afford it by 3rd.

    Which means this Class makes all other Warlock Patrons less likely to be picked, since Hexblade is the prime pick for going Gish. And since they never need more than a 3 level dip for the best Features of the class, is otherwise ignored.

    Now, I did allow an Invocation to give shield to Hexblade.

    (2) I was comparing Draconic Sorcerer's AC 13 (natural) + [5] Dex (AC 18) to Half Plate's AC 15 +2 Dex (AC 17).

    I'm not against High AC, just getting it for very little Cost.

    I also had an issue with the Shield Spell stacking with (magical) shields for rediculas-ly high AC.
    I like that 5e got rid of the Quadratic Wizard, while still making Wizards fun to play.

    Yes, Multiclassing (and some Races) allow Medium Armor, but those are Player choices that have their own costs.

    My goal is to have all the Classes/Subclasses being chosen (mostly) equally.

    Spoiler: AC
    Show

    Studded (45 gp) 12 + [5] Dex +2 shield (10gp) = 19
    Half-Plate (750 gp) 15 + 2 Dex +2 shield = 19
    Full Plate (1,500 gp) 18 +2 shield +1 Defense = 21.


    Updated Ancient Realms
    and put in my Idea for a Dragon Patron Warlock.
    Playtest. Evaluate. And. Comment. Honestly.
    Thanks
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-22 at 01:51 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    (1) This goes into why I don't like Hexblade.
    (More in my Ancient Realms thread)

    TL;DR: By allowing both Medium Armor (which all Warlocks get) and shield, the only thing stopping a Player from getting AC 19 at First level is >money<.

    And since Half Plate is only 750 gold, most Warriors can afford it by 3rd.
    Are the tables you've played at giving out 3.5e quantities of gold for 5e games? In my experience you can often upgrade to Splint at 3rd, but would need another player's help to afford a breastplate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Which means this Class makes all other Warlock Patrons less likely to be picked, since Hexblade is the prime pick for going Gish. And since they never need more than a 3 level dip for the best Features of the class, is otherwise ignored.

    Now, I did allow an Invocation to give shield to Hexblade.
    The primary problem is that martial characters dipping into warlock only have one subclass option that boosts their damage output. To reduce the problem, I have homebrewed the bonus damage from the hexblades' curse to work the same as a barbarian's Rage Damage. Unless you want to multiclass to warlock purely for damage purposes anyway, this makes the alternatives more comparable.

    If the characters is dealing with minions in a melee, the Fiend grants more survivability, if they're dipping from being a rogue or champion Faerie Fire may be more useful, and if they're a barbarian the Celestial lets them heal mid rage. But if you're just looking for damage from a warlock dip, Hexblade is flat out the best option.

    My dragon patron trades the temp hp and short rest renewal for their damage bonus that hexblades get for better burst damage, higher low level AC, being more MAD, and extra attack (or an extra invocation, for dragon bladelocks). They're also less dependent on being bladelocks to get the full benefit. So I do think it would reduce the rate Hexblades are chosen as a subclass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    (2) I was comparing Draconic Sorcerer's AC 13 (natural) + [5] Dex (AC 18) to Half Plate's AC 15 +2 Dex (AC 17).

    I'm not against High AC, just getting it for very little Cost.

    I also had an issue with the Shield Spell stacking with (magical) shields for rediculas-ly high AC.
    I like that 5e got rid of the Quadratic Wizard, while still making Wizards fun to play.

    Yes, Multiclassing (and some Races) allow Medium Armor, but those are Player choices that have their own costs.

    My goal is to have all the Classes/Subclasses being chosen (mostly) equally.

    Spoiler: AC
    Show

    Studded (45 gp) 12 + [5] Dex +2 shield (10gp) = 19
    Half-Plate (750 gp) 15 + 2 Dex +2 shield = 19
    Full Plate (1,500 gp) 18 +2 shield +1 Defense = 21.
    If you're multiclassing to get the Defense Fighting style, you could start as a fighter/paladin and have the same armor proficiency anyway. If you're a sorcerer, you get a lot more benefit.

    Studded armor is mitigated by the need for high dexterity.

    There's also the issue that you technically need the War Caster feat to cast a lot of spells while wielding a weapon and a shield. If you find the AC a problem, you could just enforce that rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    You have made a pact with an Ancient Dragon
    The DM should keep in mind the type and nature of the Dragon, and set goals accordingly.

    Draconic Presence starting at 1st level, you can cause each creature in a 10'-cube in front of you to make a Wisdom Saving Throw against your Warlock save DC. Those creatures that fail their saves are all charmed (Good Dragons) or freighted (Evil Dragons) until the end of your next turn.

    Elemental Affinity: at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your Dragon Patron, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.

    Draconic Resilience: at 10th level you gain Resistance to Spells. (Advantage to saves)

    Draconic Power: At 14th level, you gain a Breath Weapon of the energy type of your Dragon Patron.
    The character can choose either Line or Cone (once chosen, cannot be changed) with a range of 30 feet, and does 10d6 damage of the chosen type, with a Dexterity Save equal to your Warlock Casting DC, for half damage. You regain use of this ability when you have finished a long rest.
    Prior getting to playtesting, this isn't a bad concept, but you're stepping on both the Archfey patron and draconic sorcerer's toes.

    It's also not a melee warlock subclass, so it doesn't cut into how often Hexblades get chosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Expanded Spell List

    Black/Copper
    1 Acid Splash, Silent Image
    2 Darkness, Hold Person
    3 Fly, Protection from Energy
    4 Confusion, Dominate Beast
    5 Insect Plague, Seeming

    Blue/Bronze
    1 Shocking Grasp, Thunderwave
    2 Gust of Wind, Mirror Image.
    3 Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic
    4 Polymorph, Stoneskin
    5 Telekinesis, Hold Monster

    Green
    1 Disguise Self, Detect Magic.
    2 Alter Self, Invisibility
    3 Water Breathing, Water Walk
    4 Dimension Door, Banishment
    5 Cloudkill, Dominate Person

    Red/Gold/Brass
    1 Burning Hands
    2 Scorching Ray
    3 Fireball
    4 Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
    5 Flame Strike

    White/Silver
    1 Chill Touch, Expeditious Retreat
    2 Blur, Spider Climb
    3 Slow, Sleet Storm
    4 Ice Storm, Blight
    5 Cone of Cold, Hold Monster
    Acid Splash is a cantrip. As are shocking grasp and chill touch.

    Darkness, Hold Person, Fly, Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Hold Monster, Invisibility, Dimension Door, Banishment, Expeditious Retreat, Spider Climb, and Blight are already on the warlock spell list. Adding them to the warlock spell list does nothing.

    Allowing a warlock to cast Polymorph normally is broken, as evidenced by the Invocation allowing you to cast it once per long rest.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Are the tables you've played at giving out 3.5e quantities of gold for 5e games? In my experience you can often upgrade to Splint at 3rd, but would need another player's help to afford a breastplate.
    I do my best to not do that, but I'm amazed at how many "Homebrew" games I'm in have PCs with AC over 17 at first to third level.
    There is no way that's Point Buy, and rolling that high for MAD Abilities for so many PCs, is (rather) unbelievable.

    The primary problem is that martial characters dipping into warlock only have one subclass option that boosts their damage output. To reduce the problem, I have homebrewed the bonus damage from the hexblades' curse to work the same as a barbarian's Rage Damage. Unless you want to multiclass to warlock purely for damage purposes anyway, this makes the alternatives more comparable.
    Like I mentioned, Multiclassing has its own costs.

    If the characters is dealing with minions in a melee, the Fiend grants more survivability, if they're dipping from being a rogue or champion Faerie Fire may be more useful, and if they're a barbarian the Celestial lets them heal mid rage. But if you're just looking for damage from a warlock dip, Hexblade is flat out the best option.
    Yep.

    My dragon patron trades the temp hp and short rest renewal for their damage bonus that hexblades get for better burst damage, higher low level AC, being more MAD, and extra attack (or an extra invocation, for dragon bladelocks). They're also less dependent on being bladelocks to get the full benefit. So I do think it would reduce the rate Hexblades are chosen as a subclass.
    Maybe someday I'll find someone willing to do some Playtesting.

    If you're multiclassing to get the Defense Fighting style, you could start as a fighter/paladin and have the same armor proficiency anyway. If you're a sorcerer, you get a lot more benefit.
    See above.

    Studded armor is mitigated by the need for high dexterity.

    There's also the issue that you technically need the War Caster feat to cast a lot of spells while wielding a weapon and a shield. If you find the AC a problem, you could just enforce that rule.
    Oh, I enforce that, and as such see more vHumans as a result. Combined, of course with PAM and Sentinel as quickly as possible. Having a style for your PC is nice, but I've kinda gotten over being a Power Gamer, just for LoLz.

    Prior getting to playtesting, this isn't a bad concept, but you're stepping on both the Archfey patron and draconic sorcerer's toes.

    It's also not a melee warlock subclass, so it doesn't cut into how often Hexblades get chosen.
    I was trying for more Balanced, but looks like I missed the mark.

    Acid Splash is a cantrip. As are shocking grasp and chill touch.

    Darkness, Hold Person, Fly, Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Hold Monster, Invisibility, Dimension Door, Banishment, Expeditious Retreat, Spider Climb, and Blight are already on the warlock spell list. Adding them to the warlock spell list does nothing.

    Allowing a warlock to cast Polymorph normally is broken, as evidenced by the Invocation allowing you to cast it once per long rest.
    Humm. It will take some time to figure out what to replace these with.

    If you're interested in improving my idea/s, please post Suggestions in Ancient Realms.

    Thanks for responding.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-24 at 02:21 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I do my best to not do that, but I'm amazed at how many "Homebrew" games I'm in have PCs with AC over 17 at first to third level.
    There is no way that's Point Buy, and rolling that high for MAD Abilities for so many PCs, is (rather) unbelievable.
    That's not from homebrew. By RAW, you start with chain mail if using heavy armor or scale mail if using medium armor. Either one lets you get to an AC of 16 before a shield. Getting over 17 just requires going sword and board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Oh, I enforce that, and as such see more vHumans as a result. Combined, of course with PAM and Sentinel as quickly as possible. Having a style for your PC is nice, but I've kinda gotten over being a Power Gamer, just for LoLz.
    Between paladins and clerics being able to wear their focus, martial bard colleges being able to use a weapon as one, and everyone else but eldritch knights having a hand free, I really can't be bothered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I was trying for more Balanced, but looks like I missed the mark.


    Humm. It will take some time to figure out what to replace these with.

    If you're interested in improving my idea/s, please post Suggestions in Ancient Realms.

    Thanks for responding.
    I think you missed the mark thematically more than missed it balance wise. I'll go over a few spells, and give you them as a block if I find anything.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    @sandmote:

    I guess that I'm looking at compairing some other classes for effectiveness of the Warlock.

    Light armor and no shield is equal to the Rogue for AC.
    Which is where all other Warlocks are at.

    Hexblade's Medium Armor plus shield is equal to a Ranger. Getting a Dex of 14 isn't too hard. But, still gets Spells before said Ranger. With a slot refresh every Short Rest!

    So, high Armor Class, plus great to hit, plus spells at 1st level = OP. Seriously, why be anything else?

    Even the Druid is hard pressed to match all that, at 1st level.

    *****
    I'm still adjusting to the differences of 5e.

    See, until it was pointed out that the PC starts with everything that is on the starting equipment, limited only by choice A vs choice B, I thought that they only got one of the rows as a choice at all.

    So yeah, the newly made level 1 Paladin had Longsword, Chainmail, light crossbow, plus Background equipment, and 15 gold! I'm maybe too nice with Newby Players, since I allowed starting gold of 150 gold each.
    But, see below.

    (Rolled stats)

    So, the Paladin had AC 18 with shield doing 1d8+4 damage with +6 to hit - out the gate!! Which meant only needing a Roll of 6+ to hit AC 12 (at most) CR 1/4 stuff, and a roll of 4+4 (8) for (Average = 9) Damage dropped them, as well.

    But then I still rolled good enough for the Goblins (+4 attack and 6 damage per hit) to still hit the Paladin. And teamwork by Goblins, and a couple Natural 20s dropped said Paladin twice in the Session!

    Good thing the others had spent some of their starting gold on Potions of Healing!! Plus even with the DMpc Rogue having 2, they still had all of these used by end of the Session!

    The Party (Monk had Unarmored AC 17 and two attacks at +5 attack and 6 damage per hit; Ranger AC 16 +6 attack and +8 damage per hit) took out the Goblin Hideout (22 goblins and 3 wolves) by the end of the 4.5 hour Session, and even splitting the Exp 4 ways, they went to Level 2. (No Casters!!)

    So....... Yeah.
    *****
    All help getting my Dragon Warlock Patron more thematically and mechanically balenced is greatly appreciated.

    And I'll also see if I can Playtest your version and give feedback.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-25 at 03:42 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Does the claw invocation count as wielding a light finesse weapon that deals slashing damage?
    Extra attack feels a bit out of place, but I think most official content also has things that don't quite synergize, so I don't mind it.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Does the claw invocation count as wielding a light finesse weapon that deals slashing damage?
    By RAW it does not. If the basic version to too weak to see use, I wouldn't mind making the claws light. Making them finesse would be odd, given the subclass is meant to be wearing heavy armor (and therefore have high strength)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Extra attack feels a bit out of place, but I think most official content also has things that don't quite synergize, so I don't mind it.
    I'm interested in this. How doe extra attack feel out of place for a martial subclass on a class that doesn't get this feature? Particularly given one of the main class features takes effect up to one time per hit with a weapon.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    By RAW it does not. If the basic version to too weak to see use, I wouldn't mind making the claws light. Making them finesse would be odd, given the subclass is meant to be wearing heavy armor (and therefore have high strength)


    I'm interested in this. How doe extra attack feel out of place for a martial subclass on a class that doesn't get this feature? Particularly given one of the main class features takes effect up to one time per hit with a weapon.
    Ah, you see, it is very easy to mis-judge a subclass when you somehow read Infuse Elements applying to "attacks" and not "weapon attacks". So, yeah, my bad.
    I see the whole thing in a completely new light now, and it's pretty cool ^^

    And I must apologize, finesse and light are mutually exclusive properties.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Ah, you see, it is very easy to mis-judge a subclass when you somehow read Infuse Elements applying to "attacks" and not "weapon attacks". So, yeah, my bad.
    I see the whole thing in a completely new light now, and it's pretty cool ^^

    And I must apologize, finesse and light are mutually exclusive properties.
    I was half hoping for a bizarre argument for why extra attack doesn't fit, but I suppose I'm happier knowing what I've written works okay.

    However, finesse and light work well together (rather than being mutually exclusive) as seen in the dagger, short sword, and scimitar. If you were agreeing the invocation probably shouldn't have both and just wrote it oddly, my apologies for bothering to point something so basic.

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    Default Re: By the Power of Dragons; The Dragon Patron (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Does the claw invocation count as wielding a light finesse weapon that deals slashing damage?
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    By RAW it does not. If the basic version to too weak to see use, I wouldn't mind making the claws light. Making them finesse would be odd, given the subclass is meant to be wearing heavy armor (and therefore have high strength)
    That always annoyed me. Claws seem considered Natural Weapons for Monsters, but not PCs.
    As such, I still count them as actual (1d4) weapons: Claws from an Invocation shouldn't really be much different.

    Since they are literally a part of the creature's appendage: they should be considered Light (IiRC, the only Finesse weapon that isn't Light is the Rapier) and since someone making a Dex Build should still be allowed (they can get almost as good an AC as Plate + Shield with some investment in Dex) there's no reason I can think of that Claws couldn't be Finesse as well.

    Sure, a little Munchkin-ing can happen with Two-Weapon Fighting doing Claw damage twice a round, but unless they dip into something that gives TWF style they only get their Str/Dex mod on the first hit, and not the second.

    As a note: When I'm DM-ing, if someone is walking around with Claws (natural or not) people don't relax around you, since you are always considered "armed". And yes, some Races (Hobgoblins, Duergar, and Drow) will literally cut your hands/arms off when capturing you.

    One of the reasons why I allow Warlocks to turn their Invocations "Off".

    ****
    Updated Dragon Patron in Ancient Realms
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-26 at 03:17 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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