The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

[Lord Raziere]

The "until you are thankful for nightfall" part suggests me that that architecture actually isn't pleasant at all. Like spending the day immersed in strobe lights.

Sounds like my recent skyrim experience before I managed to fixed the weather and the dagi-raht night vision. just....everything lit up with white light as if the sun exploded all over everything. felt like I was walking around half blind. sky was pure white, ground was mostly white. in some sections visibility was really low and I couldn't see far at all, and it only got worse in snow....yeah that kind of architecture would probably just be a more colorful version of that. would explain why the altmer are jerks though, if they have to live with being sunblasted by their own buildings all the time, makes them cranky.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'll defend the artists of ESO now. Have you ever tried to navigate one of these weird warped buildings? Lest tried to build them in say: Lego, Minecraft, or even just drawn them?

They don't exist in game, so there's nothing to navigate. At any rate, having a fancy exterior with lots of windows and reflective surfaces does not automatically make the interior into a maze. These look like they're made of glass, but I'd be surprised if they were any harder to navigate than any non-window encased office building:

Spoiler: Spoilered for size

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Ditto for fancy sculptures or elaborate facades. They had no problem putting in Skar and Redoran bug huts in Vvardenfell. And they were perfectly happy to give us multiple cantons of Vivec with no Levitation or Mark/Recall spells, which even cut in half isn't a fun thing to navigate so I doubt navigation was a concern for them while making the zone.

These descriptions READ well, but they do NOT translate well into actual architecture. Yes, they aren't quite inspired, but such lore is given in ingame books. And I've always thought authors in the world have a thing for the dramatic. They exaggerate, they embellish.

I have to side with Vinyadan here, the author in the Pocket Guide was complaining not advertising, and it's difficult to complain about features of the environment that flat out don't exist - it would be like if I went to the Arctic and started wailing that it was too hot.

[Rynjin]

Well, he's not, so yes, I do. He's not even the creative brains behind Morrowind, despite his composing some concept art and writing some of the more esoteric lore.

"The more esoteric lore" is what makes the Elder Scrolls universe (and any fantasy universe for that matter) interesting to me. Without it, it's just a collection of tired fantasy pastiches crammed in Countries of Hats, just like every other fantasy setting.

[Caelestion]

"The more esoteric lore" is what makes the Elder Scrolls universe (and any fantasy universe for that matter) interesting to me. Without it, it's just a collection of tired fantasy pastiches crammed in Countries of Hats, just like every other fantasy setting.

And that's entirely your prerogative, but Kirkbride was in no way solely responsible for everything you seem to like to about TES.

[Spore]

"The more esoteric lore" is what makes the Elder Scrolls universe (and any fantasy universe for that matter) interesting to me. Without it, it's just a collection of tired fantasy pastiches crammed in Countries of Hats, just like every other fantasy setting.

And that's entirely your prerogative, but Kirkbride was in no way solely responsible for everything you seem to like to about TES.

The thing is, "esoteric lore" is entirely subjective. What one considers a standard trope, the other thinks is very outlandish. Take the simple idea of Dunmer venerating Daedra Princes. Yes, they are demon worshippers now, which is boring. but Daedra are so much more than standard fantasy demons. They are a part of the genesis of the world, not just a "mistake" or the core (reason and result) of mortal corruption.

I have to side with Vinyadan here, the author in the Pocket Guide was complaining not advertising, and it's difficult to complain about features of the environment that flat out don't exist - it would be like if I went to the Arctic and started wailing that it was too hot.

My point is bordering on real life politics (racism). You can very well complain about things you never really experienced. In fact you can make up whole schools of philosophy about things you never experience, and how aching they must be. Plus a poetic mind can see warped and unusual things in the most mundane areas. In fact I consider this kind of perception a key part to a good author.

But yea, I am still going with limitations of the programmers (engine, money constraints, time constraints) which may not even infuriate a large player base. Vivec had to be modelled how it was in TES III. Most people (like me) don't give two craps about the Aldmeri Dominion areas as long as it looks kinda pristine.

[Caelestion]

Take the simple idea of Dunmer venerating Daedra Princes. Yes, they are demon worshippers now, which is boring. but Daedra are so much more than standard fantasy demons. They are a part of the genesis of the world, not just a "mistake" or the core (reason and result) of mortal corruption.

I agree. I don't even think of the Daedra Princes as demon lords or archdevils, etc, because although their pantheon is almost entirely evil, they are one half of creation and all that that entails. Yes, they sponsor all manner of mortal wickedness, are responsible for much mortal suffering and are served by evil outsiders, but they are part of the dualistic nature of the planes and closer in tone to the nastier Greek gods (such as Ares or Hecate). Some are even villains with good publicity, e.g. Azura or Mephala.

[Keltest]

Personally I generally see the Daedra/Aedra divide as law versus chaos. The Daedra are chaotic, wild, spontaneous. They have little regard for the structures of man or mer society and act within their interests regardless of what anybody else thinks or says. The Aedra meanwhile are all about structure and order. They direct and organize society, create laws and very literally the world, and then work to maintain those structures, such as they can.

[Caelestion]

Absolutely. It's the classic order/chaos divide that Gygax started with from Michael Moorcock's novels (and others), but with an additional patina of good and evil overlaid on the gods, because that is how mortals tend to see the gods of creation vs the gods of "whatever the hell we want to be".

[Fyraltari]

I have to side with Vinyadan here, the author in the Pocket Guide was complaining not advertising, and it's difficult to complain about features of the environment that flat out don't exist - it would be like if I went to the Arctic and started wailing that it was too hot.

Isn't the Pocket Guide supposed to be borderline propaganda, though? I mean it describes the Altmer as killing nine babies out of ten which is ridiculous and doesn't really match the attitudes od the in-game Altmer (except the Fourth-era Thalmor who nutcases even by Elven standards).

Personally I generally see the Daedra/Aedra divide as law versus chaos. The Daedra are chaotic, wild, spontaneous. They have little regard for the structures of man or mer society and act within their interests regardless of what anybody else thinks or says. The Aedra meanwhile are all about structure and order. They direct and organize society, create laws and very literally the world, and then work to maintain those structures, such as they can.

I agree in general but that's not really a hard-and-fast rule.

Jyggalag, Peryite and Molag Bal are all about order. And Mephala, Boethiah and Azura are revered as law-givers by the Dunmers.

Meanwhile Dibella's commandment is basically "have fun".

[MCerberus]

An interesting analog may be Norse mythology, where there were two sets of gods. Instead of merging pantheons, Nurn just... has them both doing their things. The Thalmor, wanting to "simplify" the gods may also be working towards a cosmic order without Daedra.

[factotum]

Jyggalag, Peryite and Molag Bal are all about order.

I'd argue Hermaeus Mora is as well--his entire aim is "Learn all that is knowable", which seems a very non-chaotic thing to be doing, and when you visit his part of Oblivion via the Black Books in Skyrim, it's an extremely orderly place. The only Daedric Princes who truly are completely chaotic are Sanguine and Sheogorath.

[Fyraltari]

I'd argue Hermaeus Mora is as well--his entire aim is "Learn all that is knowable", which seems a very non-chaotic thing to be doing, and when you visit his part of Oblivion via the Black Books in Skyrim, it's an extremely orderly place. The only Daedric Princes who truly are completely chaotic are Sanguine and Sheogorath.

Yep good point. Malacath is also the orcish law-giver. Mehrunes Dagon is pretty chaotic being mindless destruction incarnate but he was apparently the one who gave the dremora their rigid hierarchy, so go figure. Clavicus Vile is abasically the god of contracts and social interaction so no.

Meridia doesn't really have a sphere besides "light" and "undead are icky" so I don't know.
Namira and Vaermina I could make a case either way.

Hircine seems actually chaotic to me though, as his guiding philosophy is "to the strongest".
Nocturne too, being the thieves' goddess.

[Resileaf]

Yep good point. Malacath is also the orcish law-giver. Mehrunes Dagon is pretty chaotic being mindless destruction incarnate but he was apparently the one who gave the dremora their rigid hierarchy, so go figure. Clavicus Vile is abasically the god of contracts and social interaction so no.

Mehrunes' beef is that he considers the world to be his rightful property, so his destructive antics are caused by wanting his things back. As far as he's concerned, men and mer are squatting in his house and he's fully at right to kill everything.

[Triaxx]

And according to the Lore, Mehrunes also saved the world from Alduin.

[InvisibleBison]

I'd argue Hermaeus Mora is as well--his entire aim is "Learn all that is knowable", which seems a very non-chaotic thing to be doing, and when you visit his part of Oblivion via the Black Books in Skyrim, it's an extremely orderly place. The only Daedric Princes who truly are completely chaotic are Sanguine and Sheogorath.

I don't know if I'd really call Apocrypha orderly. As I recall, the books you find there are fairly random - a rare book of lore or a master spell tome is as common as a children's story or an unreadable burned book.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't know if I'd really call Apocrypha orderly. As I recall, the books you find there are fairly random - a rare book of lore or a master spell tome is as common as a children's story or an unreadable burned book.

That and knowledge isn't inherently orderly- the thing your knowing about can be orderly, but knowledge itself often opens up ways to change this or that to your liking. or for people to all start arguing over a secret revealed. knowledge is not unconnected form emotions, it is in fact inextricably tied to them, for a lot kinds of information give you an emotional as well as intellectual reaction.

[Caelestion]

None of the three "Good Daedra" are lawful in D&D terms, though. Mephala is the goddess of murder, sex and secrets (probably NE), Boethiah is the patron of deceit, treason, and overthrowal of authority (NE/CE) and Azura is the goddess of twilight, vanity etc. (TN/CN at best). As I said, they're villains with good publicity.

[Vinyadan]

I think that the big difference is that the Nine Divines don't show up and try to destroy the planet. The Daedra instead seem to have a lot of beef against specific people or just everyone. So you have Sanguine kidnapping people to make them fight, and Mehrunes trying to invade Tamriel. A good number of their missions are contract killings, sometimes in especially cruel ways, like aiming for people who trust you. They also transform people: the Orcs, the Dunmer, werewolves, vampires, Ruddy Man... And there's generally something mean about it, it's either a punishment/curse, or an evil pact, or something uncontrollable.

ALMSIVI seem to be somewhere in-between, they can be shortsighted, cruel, or insane, but they also put on greats fights to protect mankind (Almalexia and Sotha Sil defeated Mehrunes Dagon, Vivec defeated Ruddy Man and stopped the moon).

[Keltest]

I think that the big difference is that the Nine Divines don't show up and try to destroy the planet. The Daedra instead seem to have a lot of beef against specific people or just everyone. So you have Sanguine kidnapping people to make them fight, and Mehrunes trying to invade Tamriel. A good number of their missions are contract killings, sometimes in especially cruel ways, like aiming for people who trust you. They also transform people: the Orcs, the Dunmer, werewolves, vampires, Ruddy Man... And there's generally something mean about it, it's either a punishment/curse, or an evil pact, or something uncontrollable.

ALMSIVI seem to be somewhere in-between, they can be shortsighted, cruel, or insane, but they also put on greats fights to protect mankind (Almalexia and Sotha Sil defeated Mehrunes Dagon, Vivec defeated Ruddy Man and stopped the moon).

In as much as ALMSIVI can be considered "real" gods, theyre basically still built out of mortals, and so are capable of the exact same range of behaviors as mortals are.

[Caelestion]

And by the time we see them in Morrowind, they're 3,500 years old and have been deprived of the Heart's energy for over 400 years.

[factotum]

I don't know if I'd really call Apocrypha orderly. As I recall, the books you find there are fairly random - a rare book of lore or a master spell tome is as common as a children's story or an unreadable burned book.

I was thinking more of the architecture of the place than any books you find there. The way it's laid out just makes me think an orderly mind was behind it. I never played Shivering Isles (because Oblivion) so I don't know how Sheogorath's realm looks, but I imagine it's nowhere near as orderly as Apocrypha is.

Anyway, I think Mora's search is not chaotic simply because it *is* a drive to learn and catalogue *everything*. A chaotic daedra might try to learn something because they thought it would be useful to them, but they wouldn't care about stuff that had no use whatsoever.

[veti]

Anyway, I think Mora's search is not chaotic simply because it *is* a drive to learn and catalogue *everything*. A chaotic daedra might try to learn something because they thought it would be useful to them, but they wouldn't care about stuff that had no use whatsoever.

I see it as a personal obsession of Mora's, rather than any kind of coherent plan. I see most of the daedra as - conflicted, I guess. Hard to assign an alignment to, and only partly because alignments suck.

Take Sheogorath, for instance. Madness is inherently chaotic, but in Shivering Isles Sheggy has imposed order on it. Or Malacath - to the orcs he's a lawgiver, but his "code" is basically chaotic philosophy.

Molag Bal is as chaotic as all get-out. He's a firm believer in strength through strength. Boethia, on the other hand, works in terms of indirect manipulation, misdirection, wielding cause and effect at a subtle level. Very lawful.

[Fyraltari]

None of the three "Good Daedra" are lawful in D&D terms, though. Mephala is the goddess of murder, sex and secrets (probably NE), Boethiah is the patron of deceit, treason, and overthrowal of authority (NE/CE) and Azura is the goddess of twilight, vanity etc. (TN/CN at best). As I said, they're villains with good publicity.

Tamriel May have started as a D&D setting but it’s long past that and Law vs Chaos wasn’t a D&D invention either. The Good Daedra are mostly chaotic but they do have lawful elements as they are credited with the organisation of dunmeri society into Houses and the creation of the Morag Tong as a stabilizating element. All of the Daedra are amoral in the end, though.

I think that the big difference is that the Nine Divines don't show up and try to destroy the planet.

Err Alduin? He is the traditional Nordic pantheon aspect of Akatosh.

The Daedra instead seem to have a lot of beef against specific people or just everyone. So you have Sanguine kidnapping people to make them fight

That’s Boethiah. Sanguine seems mostly opposed to wanton killing since he left Reman’s court in disgust and his Skyrim quest has you wiping out one of his cults that started setting up torture chambers.

Note to say that he’s nice though. His shtick is self-destructive indulgence.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking more of the architecture of the place than any books you find there. The way it's laid out just makes me think an orderly mind was behind it. I never played Shivering Isles (because Oblivion) so I don't know how Sheogorath's realm looks, but I imagine it's nowhere near as orderly as Apocrypha is.

The Mania/Dementia separation is surprisingly strict. The rest is just as bonkers as you imagine though.

[Lord Raziere]

I was thinking more of the architecture of the place than any books you find there. The way it's laid out just makes me think an orderly mind was behind it. I never played Shivering Isles (because Oblivion) so I don't know how Sheogorath's realm looks, but I imagine it's nowhere near as orderly as Apocrypha is.

Anyway, I think Mora's search is not chaotic simply because it *is* a drive to learn and catalogue *everything*. A chaotic daedra might try to learn something because they thought it would be useful to them, but they wouldn't care about stuff that had no use whatsoever.

Sheogoraths realm is divided into two parts, Mania and Dementia. both full of crazy mortals, Mania's full of crazy colorful people who need strict shiny golden jerks to keep them check called Golden Saints. Dementia is the darker aspect of Sheo's personality who are kinder because the mortals there are the sad tragic kind of crazy.

I mean, the only Daedra I'd truly classify as orderly but evil is Molag Bal, given how domination happy he is. Jyggalag? we haven't seen enough of him to know, he does like order, but but he hasn't shown what he actually does to contribute TO order overall.

thing is Mehrunes Dagon is constantly trying to destroy his own realm, which he can't do, because its a plane of oblivion and not a physical thing. so I wouldn't call him orderly.

and in the past, the Daedra have had more of destabilizing effect on society than a stabilizing one. one only needs to look at what happened to Ayleids to see what went wrong there, altmer-like elves started worshipping them and it made them decadent cruel people who got revolutioned to death by the pre-Imperials. Meridia was apart of that so don't think that just she finds undead icky that she is somehow good, it seems to be more a preference or a hatred than actually being holy or whatever. Herma-Mora however isn't really some librarian trying to have an orderly realm of books where everything is neatly categorized, he made this stupid byzantine plot for either Miraak or the Last Dragonborn to fight it out and be his champion? right hand man? why? one would think having two immortal dragonborn able to gather his knowledge for him would be more efficient or something but instead you have this weird pageantry and theatrics about the First and Last Dragonborn fighting on top of a stadium? I think Herma-Mora wanted to be entertained and see who would win like a Vs battles Nerd. playing with action figures much? seems disorderly to me

overall, the Daedra are have all the traits of greek gods, but with more murder, cannibalism, insanity, and betrayal. not really orderly at all. the Nine Divines are orderly, they make stable safe societies, but the Daedra aren't.

[Vinyadan]

Err Alduin? He is the traditional Nordic pantheon aspect of Akatosh.

No, outsiders assume that he is how the Nords call Akatosh, but the Nords are pretty clear on the fact that he is a different person entirely.

The majority of Nord people seem to believe that their Alduin of legend is not Akatosh, but another deity entirely. A great dragon, yes, but not the Great Dragon.

Determined to get to the heart of this matter, I consulted with several Nords, chief among them an old and respected clan chief by the name of Bjorn Much-Bloodied. And what surprised me most about those I talked to was not that they believed in Alduin instead of Akatosh, but that they recognized Alduin in addition to Akatosh. In fact, most children of Skyrim seem to view Akatosh in much the same way I do - he is, in fact, the Great Dragon. First among the Divines, perseverance personified and, more than anything, a force of supreme good in the world.

Alduin, they claim, is something altogether different.

Whether or not he is actually a deity remains in question, but the Alduin of Nord folklore is in fact a dragon, but one so ancient, and so powerful, he was dubbed the "World Eater," and some accounts even have him devouring the souls of the dead to maintain his own power. Other stories revolve around Alduin acting as some sort of dragon king, uniting the other dragons in a war against mankind, until he was eventually defeated at the hands of one or more brave heroes.

As my da used to say - Imperials are idiutts!

That is why I am riting this book. I ent never rote a book before, and I do not reckon to rite one agenn, but sometimes a man must do what a man must do. And what I must do is set the recerd strate about the god called Akatosh and the dragon called Alduin. They ent the same thing, no matter what them Imperials mite say, or how thay mite wish it to be so.

My da was never one for the gods, but my ma was. She wershipped all the Divines, and tot me lots of things. So I noe a thing or two about Akatosh. Just as much as any Imperial. I noe he was the first of all the gods to take shape in the Beginning Place. And I noe he has the shape of a dragon.

My da even told me the story of Martyn Septim, and the things what happened when the gates to Oblivion opened. Septim turned into the spirit of Akatosh and killed Mehrunes Dagon. Now I dont noe about you, but any dragon that fites the Prince of Destruction is okay by me.

Now I hope you understand the problim. Akatosh is good. Everyone, from Nord to Imperial, noes that. But Alduin? He ent good! He's the oposit of good! That Alduin is evil thrue and thrue. So you see, Akatosh and Alduin cant be one and the same.

Growing up as a lad in Skyrim, I herd all the stories. Told to me by my da, who was told by his da, who was told by his da, and so on. And one of those stories was about Alduin. But see, he was not Akatosh. He was another dragon and a real wun at that.

Akatosh is some kind of spirit dragon I think, wen he bothers to be a dragon at all (and not a god livin in sum kind of god plac like Obliviun). But Alduin is a real dragon, with flesh and teeth and a mean streak longer than the White River. And there was a time when Alduin tried to rool over all of Skyrim with his other dragons. In the end, it took sum mitey strong heroes to finally kill Alduin and be dun with his hole sorry story.

So I got to ask - does that sound like Akatosh to you? No, frend. No it do not.

And so I, Thromgar Iron-Head do firmly say, with the utmost connvicshun, that Alduin is real, and he ent Akatosh!

That’s Boethiah. Sanguine seems mostly opposed to wanton killing since he left Reman’s court in disgust and his Skyrim quest has you wiping out one of his cults that started setting up torture chambers.

Note to say that he’s nice though. His shtick is self-destructive indulgence.

I actually had mixed up Hircine and Sanguine. Hircine kidnaps people to make them fight each other.

[Fyraltari]

No, outsiders assume that he is how the Nords call Akatosh, but the Nords are pretty clear on the fact that he is a different person entirely.

Ah, sorry, I'm playing some Morrowind recently and I forgot that they changed that bit of lore. Still Alduin is definitely an aedra like every other dragon (in the same way that Barbas or Haskill are daedra) if not one of the most powerful ones.

I actually had mixed up Hircine and Sanguine. Hircine kidnaps people to make them fight each other.

That he does.

[Vinyadan]

Ah, sorry, I'm playing some Morrowind recently and I forgot that they changed that bit of lore. Still Alduin is definitely an aedra like every other dragon (in the same way that Barbas or Haskill are daedra) if not one of the most powerful ones.

I think that this is a very important point, the Nine are just a man-made selection of Aedra (+1 man) that are assumed worthy of worship. So it's kind of backwards to look for special metaphysical characters in the Nine that set them apart from the rest; it's actually people who have looked for gods with a certain set of behaviours. There is a book ("Artorius Ponticus Answers Your Questions") where a bishop of Akatosh for example explains that Magnus is an Aedra, but he didn't sacrifice enough during creation, so he is unworthy of worship.

[Fyraltari]

I think that this is a very important point, the Nine are just a man-made selection of Aedra (+1 man) that are assumed worthy of worship. So it's kind of backwards to look for special metaphysical characters in the Nine that set them apart from the rest; it's actually people who have looked for gods with a certain set of behaviours. There is a book ("Artorius Ponticus Answers Your Questions") where a bishop of Akatosh for example explains that Magnus is an Aedra, but he didn't sacrifice enough during creation, so he is unworthy of worship.

I think that the logic is that because the Aedra made Mundus their values are the ones who resonate the most with mortals who are part of Mundus (and possibly descendants of the Aedra themselves through the Ehlnofey) ans so the mortals see them as good* but if Molag Bal and Hircine made the world while Stendar didn't then the mortals would see dehumanization and fights for superiority as good and compassion for others as inherently wrong.

Regarding the Alduin/Akatosh issue, it occurs to me that it may not be a retcon at all. It might be that Alduin was originally the Nordic aspect of Akatosh but as the Imperial Cult grew in popularity in Skyrim, most Nords started to see Alduin and Akatosh as two different entities. I think that would be consistant with everything lore-wise, no?

*And since the mortals are based on us and upposed to be relatable so do we.

[Illven]

So I got a new desktop and am seeking to start playing Morrowind, and Skyrim (Special edition).

Any suggestions for mods?

[Lord Raziere]

So I got a new desktop and am seeking to start playing Morrowind, and Skyrim (Special edition).

Any suggestions for mods?

Skyrim? you can't go wrong with Enairim mods, Enaision is big for a reason in the modding community. they are just overhauls that generally do a lot of good things.

if you want new content, Project AHO or Bruma are good, I have Legacy of the Dragonborn but I haven't played it much to say enough about it, but I heard its good.

if you want different options for existing content there are various mods to modify factions like the Stormcloaks, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild to have more good guy options but I have yet to try them.

there are bunch of graphics and retexture mods to make it just plain look better, can't remember the names.

it depends on what you want out of the mods, they can do a lot of things for a lot of different styles and preferences. you go on to nexus mods and find the most popular ones of all time and they're most certainly going to be good improvements to the game, question is what improvements do you want? I'd generally recommend big mods over small ones, as the bigger mods are more well known therefore they are more worked on, more maintained and communicate more with each other to make sure all the stuff within works right and are compatible with other mods of similar size and patches if they aren't, as the bigger mods are generally made by more dedicated people while smaller mods tend to be one and done deals that aren't updated as much or at all.