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    d20 Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    I have almost universally heard the Psionic Artificer described as tier 0 and better than the standard Artificer in nearly every way.

    But I was reading this thread and came across the following quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    • Psionic Artificer (MoE p.42): Normally, the psionic artificer is considered even more broken than a normal artificer if you combine their crafting abilities with the existence of Spell-to-Power Erudites, a liberal reading of the ardent's Magic Mantle, and similar things. This alternate class changes several things about the normal artificer:
      • Item Creation cannot be used to emulate spells, and can now be used to emulate powers. This is still amazing (especially if you have an erudite on hand to provide spells as powers), but we're choosing to ignore it.
      • Your infusions list is changed to have all references of "spells" and "magic" to "powers" and "psionics." Spell-storing item becomes power-storing item, metamagic item becomes metapsionic item, and the like. This is not good for a noncrafting artificer, because it means that they cannot apply Persistent Spell to their temporary wands. Persistent Power is a feat that exists in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but it was not updated when that book stopped being the most recent psionics rules, so unless your DM updates it for you per the DMG's guidelines regarding 3.0 material, psionic artificer is a terrible ACF to take. If the DM does, then psionic artificer is a decent choice, because there are a lot of useful powers, but it's not nearly as good as the spellcasting one.

        Also, one important thing to note about the psionic artificer's infusions is that they are still infusions. They use metamagic feats still (since the psionic change only applies to the infusions themselves, not the mechanic of casting them), they're arguably still counted as spells, and the psionic artificer can still craft alchemical items.
      • Your bonus feats swap to the psionic version, and you can no longer take metamagic feats as a bonus feat.
      • Metamagic Spell Trigger becomes Metapsionic Power Trigger, which is worse than Metamagic Spell Trigger because there aren't as useful metapsionics as there are metamagics, and the most common use of the ability (blasting) lacks the power of orb spells to carry it.
      • Metamagic Spell Completion becomes Metapsionic Power Completion is similar, except that it now cannot be used on minor schemas, as it only works on power completion items such as power stones, and minor schemas do not have a psionic analogue. In addition, unless the DM allows material from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, you can't persist anything anyway.

      Overall, psionic artificer is not a good choice for a buff-focused noncrafting artificer in most cases. However, there is a situation where it can be good: a RAW reading of the ardent's Magic Mantle, from Complete Psionic. If your DM allows you to use it as written and ignore the sentences of the ability that don't do anything to the rules, but establish its RAI, then the psionic artificer is a gold choice, as it can now use metamagic feats with powers, metapsionic feats with spells, and otherwise treats magic as psionics and vice-versa. In any other situation, I would not recommend using this alternate class, because it loses too much of the power infusions carry for very little reward unless you're using its crafting abilities.
    Are the benefits that the Psionic Artificer offers better than being able to use Minor Schema?

    Is it worth taking a 1 level dip in Ardent/Erudite to snag Magic Mantle for Psionic Artificer rather than taking 20 levels in the standard Artificer class?

    I also would appreciate any other reasons that the Psionic Artificer is better than its standard counterpart.

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    There is a line in MIC (I forgot which page exactly) which basically states that psionic characters can craft any magic item as psionic items by swapping in a "similar" psionic power to the prerequiste mage spell. This line was added because they put effectively no psionic items in that book and they wanted psions to be able to craft some of the items in the book.

    So essentially a psionic artificer can craft every item in the game, psionic and magic from the start without having to deal with any mantle cheese.

    So yes everything the regular artificer can do a psionic artificer can do better (Assuming persistent power is translated to 3.5).
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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Well, no. A psionic artificer has a really hard time making scrolls and wands of spells that don't have psionic versions. They're actually a lot more limited. I would say they are substantially weaker than the standard artificer, probably by more than half a tier.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    There is a line in MIC (I forgot which page exactly) which basically states that psionic characters can craft any magic item as psionic items by swapping in a "similar" psionic power to the prerequiste mage spell. This line was added because they put effectively no psionic items in that book and they wanted psions to be able to craft some of the items in the book.

    So essentially a psionic artificer can craft every item in the game, psionic and magic from the start without having to deal with any mantle cheese.

    So yes everything the regular artificer can do a psionic artificer can do better (Assuming persistent power is translated to 3.5).
    Can they use Minor Schema? I was under the impression that they can't because it's a spell completion item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Well, no. A psionic artificer has a really hard time making scrolls and wands of spells that don't have psionic versions. They're actually a lot more limited. I would say they are substantially weaker than the standard artificer, probably by more than half a tier.
    Really?

    Can't they use that line in the Magic Item Compendium to make magic items with their Psionic equivalents (both in powers and feats)?

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Item Compendium
    For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a character who has the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor feat is treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Likewise, a character who has Craft Universal Item meets the feat prerequisite for items that require Craft Wondrous Item. If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted. If the item replicates a spell effect, then only the psionic version of that spell or a psionic power that replicates the same effect can be used to satisfy the prerequisite.
    And can't the Psionic Artificer get access to spells via the Erudite Spell to Power?
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-05 at 11:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Really?

    Can't they use that line in the Magic Item Compendium to make magic items with their Psionic equivalents (both in powers and feats)?
    Only if a psionic equivalent exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    And can't the Psionic Artificer get access to spells via the Erudite Spell to Power?
    Do you mean can they use a class feature that they don't have? No. They don't have the ability to convert spells to powers. Only erudites can gain that ability.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Only if a psionic equivalent exists.
    Thats not really true. If there is not direct psionic equivalent it explicitly lets you substitute a power of similar "Flavor". What that means is up to the DM but it seems like you can get away with crafting MOST magic items with that. I mean there are some where you can't (Things requiring eldritch blast are explicitly called out as an example of things you need someone else's assistance for).

    The exact line of the text (MiC 232) "If the item includes a prerequisite but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell a power of similar flavor can be substituted." The example it gives is using energy burst to craft a necklace of fireballs. Clearly when they mean directly implement a spell they mean like a scroll or something along those lines as the Necklace of Fireball is pretty much just a necklace that causes fireball explosions as the spell.

    So it does appear I was a bit incorrect, as there are things that the artificer can do that the psionic one can't. Still the psionic artificer is certainly not weaker than the regular artificer unless you remove or don't update persistent power.

    One of the big tricks that Psionic Artificers can do that regular artificers can't do is that they can craft wand equivalents (Dorjes) that can go up to 9th level spells instead of being limited to 4th level ones like regular wands.

    This allows you to pull off things like persisted timeless body which is just hilariously gamebreaking. Psionic powers also generally tend to be stronger on a level per level basis due to augmentations. This can mess with the actual crafting cost a bit, a dorje of minor creation costs 750 GP without reducers because it's a 1st level psionic power. Energy ray is a great damaging option which is a 1st level power while artificers would need to pull out the much higher level orb spells to compete.
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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Thats not really true. If there is not direct psionic equivalent it explicitly lets you substitute a power of similar "Flavor". What that means is up to the DM but it seems like you can get away with crafting MOST magic items with that. I mean there are some where you can't (Things requiring eldritch blast are explicitly called out as an example of things you need someone else's assistance for).

    The exact line of the text (MiC 232) "If the item includes a prerequisite but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell a power of similar flavor can be substituted." The example it gives is using energy burst to craft a necklace of fireballs. Clearly when they mean directly implement a spell they mean like a scroll or something along those lines as the Necklace of Fireball is pretty much just a necklace that causes fireball explosions as the spell.
    Right. You can't make wands or scrolls, like I said. And those are a huge part of the normal artificer's power level. You also lose access to spell-storing item, which is probably the most powerful infusion on the list, and replace it with power-storing item, which is a lot worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    One of the big tricks that Psionic Artificers can do that regular artificers can't do is that they can craft wand equivalents (Dorjes) that can go up to 9th level spells instead of being limited to 4th level ones like regular wands.
    Regular artificers can do that too. 'S called a staff, yo.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post

    Regular artificers can do that too. 'S called a staff, yo.
    You know I somehow always forget that staves work like that. I have no idea why.

    But okay I think I get both of our positions, I was thinking you were simply stating that psionic artificers could only craft items where there was an exact psionic power replicating the spell in question. I have stepped back a bit from my initial position of anything artificers can do psionic can do better but I don't think that Psionic artificers are weaker than regular ones. They still have access to a good chunk of what artificers can do and also have access to all the myriad different tricks psionics can pull off in addition to that.
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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Only if a psionic equivalent exists.
    The text is pretty broad about what qualifies as an "equivalent".

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Item Compendium
    For example, a character can create a helm of teleportation using psionic teleport as a power prerequisite, or energy burst as a power to create a necklace of fireballs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Do you mean can they use a class feature that they don't have? No. They don't have the ability to convert spells to powers. Only erudites can gain that ability.
    The mere existence of Erudite Spell to Power means that spells exist as Psionic powers in the campaign world. That means the Psionic Artificer can gain access to them.

    EDIT 2: Actually, the existence of spells as powers should render the entire "Psionic Equivalent" bit moot, since there are powers that are spells.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-06 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The text is pretty broad about what qualifies as an "equivalent".
    Items that duplicate spells exactly require an identical psionic power. So let's take something simple, a wand of lesser vigor. What's the psionic equivalent? Of course that's for healing. Maybe we want a debuff. Let's craft a wand of stolen breath and a wand of web. Toss in a wand of nerveskitter and resurgence. And for some utility scrolls, let's take magecraft, mount, summon nature's ally IV, lesser planar binding, magic circle against evil, ray of resurgence, transference, animate dead, glibness, and favor of the martyr. Psionic equivalents?

    See, the problem is that regular artificers have access to the spell list of every spellcasting class in the game. Psionic artificers effectively have access to one spell list and a handful of domains.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The mere existence of Erudite Spell to Power means that spells exist as Psionic powers in the campaign world. That means the Psionic Artificer can gain access to them.
    In no way does it mean that. Psionic artificers have no mechanism to convert spells to powers. Only erudites can do that. If a single lyric thaumaturge somewhere in Zilargo adds a wizard spell to her bard spell list, does that magically allow every bard in Eberron to take that spell as a bard spell too? No. Same thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    EDIT 2: Actually, the existence of spells as powers should render the entire "Psionic Equivalent" bit moot, since there are powers that are spells.
    That's great for those specific powers. If you need grease or dimension door then I'm very happy for you. But you're still weaker than a regular artificer.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    In no way does it mean that. Psionic artificers have no mechanism to convert spells to powers. Only erudites can do that. If a single lyric thaumaturge somewhere in Zilargo adds a wizard spell to her bard spell list, does that magically allow every bard in Eberron to take that spell as a bard spell too? No. Same thing here.
    Essentially it works the same way as regular artificers nab spells off of lower level lists.

    Take, for example, ranger, which has wind wall as a 2nd level divine spell. If a ranger were to take the Craft Wand feat, he could make a wand of wind wall with a caster level of 4 for 6,000 gp, instead of 9,000 it would cost a wizard to make it.

    An artificer can do the exact same thing. The player simply says, "I am making a Use Magic Device check to emulate the spell wind wall as an 8th-level ranger to meet the prerequisites for this wand." And thanks to the ECL bonus Item Creation feature, he can do this at level 6.

    Now look at the trapsmith prestige class from Dungeonscape. They cast arcane spells as a bard does, and their list includes haste as a 1st-level spell. If one were to take the Scribe Scroll feat, then she could create a 1st-level arcane scroll of haste with a caster level of 1.

    An artificer could do the same thing, this time by saying he is emulating the haste spell as a 1st-level trapsmith. He can do this at level 1. It wouldn't serve much purpose at level 1 since it would only last for one round, but a wand made at level 3 or 4 with haste as a 1st-level spell would massively reduce the cost.

    Both of these methods are contingent on your campaign world containing either rangers or trapsmiths. If it exists, the artificer can duplicate it.

    Now consider a Spell to Power Erudite with the Craft Djore feat. He has bargained with a trapsmith to add the haste spell as a 1st-level power to his repertoire. He then crats a djore of haste as a 1st-level power at his manifester level.

    A psionic artificer can do the exact same thing by emulating the power requirement as the Spell-to-Power Erudite would.

    If a method to craft something potentially exists in the campaign world, the artificer can duplicate it by simply asserting that he is doing so. And that's one of the things that makes them broken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Items that duplicate spells exactly require an identical psionic power.
    Then why was the example given Energy Ball subbing for Fireball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    In no way does it mean that. Psionic artificers have no mechanism to convert spells to powers. Only erudites can do that. If a single lyric thaumaturge somewhere in Zilargo adds a wizard spell to her bard spell list, does that magically allow every bard in Eberron to take that spell as a bard spell too? No. Same thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic Artificer
    A psionic artificer cannot emulate spells to create magic items. When a psionic artificer emulates a power for item creation, he uses his Use Psionic Device skill (rather than Use Magic Device).
    The Psionic Artificer does not have a list of powers she knows. She emulates preexisting powers to make items. If a spell exists as a power, what's stopping her from emulating it (since she has no powers known list)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    That's great for those specific powers. If you need grease or dimension door then I'm very happy for you.
    Again, the text seems to be a lot more liberal as to what powers can substitute for spells.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But you're still weaker than a regular artificer.
    It's strange that you say that when nearly everything else I've read indicates that the general consensus is the opposite.

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    EDIT: Doctor Awkward's explanation is more detailed than mine.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-06 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Essentially it works the same way as regular artificers nab spells off of lower level lists.

    Take, for example, ranger, which has wind wall as a 2nd level divine spell. If a ranger were to take the Craft Wand feat, he could make a wand of wind wall with a caster level of 4 for 6,000 gp, instead of 9,000 it would cost a wizard to make it.

    An artificer can do the exact same thing. The player simply says, "I am making a Use Magic Device check to emulate the spell wind wall as an 8th-level ranger to meet the prerequisites for this wand." And thanks to the ECL bonus Item Creation feature, he can do this at level 6.

    Now look at the trapsmith prestige class from Dungeonscape. They cast arcane spells as a bard does, and their list includes haste as a 1st-level spell. If one were to take the Scribe Scroll feat, then she could create a 1st-level arcane scroll of haste with a caster level of 1.

    An artificer could do the same thing, this time by saying he is emulating the haste spell as a 1st-level trapsmith. He can do this at level 1. It wouldn't serve much purpose at level 1 since it would only last for one round, but a wand made at level 3 or 4 with haste as a 1st-level spell would massively reduce the cost.

    Both of these methods are contingent on your campaign world containing either rangers or trapsmiths. If it exists, the artificer can duplicate it.
    It's correct that spells can have different levels for different spell lists, yes. That's not the same thing as having a special ability to add a spell to a spell list it isn't normally on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Now consider a Spell to Power Erudite with the Craft Djore feat. He has bargained with a trapsmith to add the haste spell as a 1st-level power to his repertoire. He then crats a djore of haste as a 1st-level power at his manifester level.

    A psionic artificer can do the exact same thing by emulating the power requirement as the Spell-to-Power Erudite would.
    Wrong. It's not a 1st level power for anyone other than the erudite, who has a special ability that allows it to count as a power for them. One lyric thaumaturge learning a wizard spell as a bard spell doesn't make that spell a bard spell for every bard, and one erudite learning a spell as a power doesn't make that spell a power for every psionic character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    If a method to craft something potentially exists in the campaign world, the artificer can duplicate it by simply asserting that he is doing so. And that's one of the things that makes them broken.
    That's incorrect. You can only duplicate what the rules say you can duplicate: prerequisites.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Then why was the example given Energy Ball subbing for Fireball?
    Because energy ball is the psionic equivalent of fireball.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The Psionic Artificer does not have a list of powers she knows. She emulates preexisting powers to make items. If a spell exists as a power, what's stopping her from emulating it (since she has no powers known list)?
    If a spell exists as a bard spell somewhere, what's to prevent other bards from learning it anywhere? The fact that it's only a bard spell for that one bard.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Because energy ball is the psionic equivalent of fireball.
    Even though it can deal different damage besides fire? If Energy Ball counts as the Psionic equivalent of Fireball, that implies that "equivalents" are rather broad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    If a spell exists as a bard spell somewhere, what's to prevent other bards from learning it anywhere? The fact that it's only a bard spell for that one bard.
    Bards have a fixed spell list, Artificers do not.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    QUICK THING
    A wizard that is a geomancer may scribe a divine spell as a wizard spell given their geomancer level is high enough. This version of the spell (whether usually on the wizard list or not) is considered a wizard spell. It is not generally on the wizard list so a wizard leveling up may not acquire it. However through the use of the wizard's spellbook he may scribe wizard scrolls into his spellbook to effectively learn them. This does allow wizards to learn spells not on their list.

    If the lyric thaumaturge learns a wizard spell not on the bard list it effects no one. If said thaumaturge created a wand of said spell, any bard would be able to use the wand as it is a bard wand.
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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It's correct that spells can have different levels for different spell lists, yes. That's not the same thing as having a special ability to add a spell to a spell list it isn't normally on.


    Wrong. It's not a 1st level power for anyone other than the erudite, who has a special ability that allows it to count as a power for them. One lyric thaumaturge learning a wizard spell as a bard spell doesn't make that spell a bard spell for every bard, and one erudite learning a spell as a power doesn't make that spell a power for every psionic character.


    That's incorrect. You can only duplicate what the rules say you can duplicate: prerequisites.
    That's exactly the point.

    A Spell to Power Erudite adds the haste spell to his repertoire as a 1st-level power by getting it from a trapsmith. He then takes the Imprint Stone feat to craft a power stone of haste. Because he knows haste as a 1st-level power, it goes into the stone as a 1st-level power, with the manifester level at whatever he wants up to his maximum level.

    There now exists in the world a power stone of haste with a manifester level of 1. The prerequisites to create this specific stone are the Imprint Stone feat and knowing haste as a 1st-level power.

    The psionic artificer can craft this item. He does so by using the Imprint Stone feat, and making a Use Psionic Device check to emulate the haste power as a 1st-level Spell to Power Erudite who added it to his repertoire from a trapsmith to meet the power prerequisite for crafting the item. He then rolls a UPD check of 21, spends his money and experience, and crafts the stone.

    The only time that a psionic artificer cannot do this is if the Spell to Power Erudite also cannot do it. If either Spell to Power Erudites and trapsmiths do not exist in the campaign world, then he cannot do it.

    The above is true for every possible item that can conceivably be crafted. If an item exists in the campaign world, the artificer can create it by making the appropriate UMD/UPD check to meet the spell prerequisites in the same way that the item's original creator did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Even though it can deal different damage besides fire? If Energy Ball counts as the Psionic equivalent of Fireball, that implies that "equivalents" are rather broad.
    It's clearly the equivalent power. 20-foot radius of fire damage with long range, Reflex half, SR: Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    QUICK THING
    A wizard that is a geomancer may scribe a divine spell as a wizard spell given their geomancer level is high enough. This version of the spell (whether usually on the wizard list or not) is considered a wizard spell. It is not generally on the wizard list so a wizard leveling up may not acquire it. However through the use of the wizard's spellbook he may scribe wizard scrolls into his spellbook to effectively learn them. This does allow wizards to learn spells not on their list.

    If the lyric thaumaturge learns a wizard spell not on the bard list it effects no one. If said thaumaturge created a wand of said spell, any bard would be able to use the wand as it is a bard wand.
    This is incorrect, actually. Spell trigger activation only cares about whether the spell in the wand is on your class spell list, regardless of who crafted it. A wand of lesser restoration crafted by a paladin can be used by anyone with lesser restoration on their list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    That's exactly the point.

    A Spell to Power Erudite adds the haste spell to his repertoire as a 1st-level power by getting it from a trapsmith. He then takes the Imprint Stone feat to craft a power stone of haste. Because he knows haste as a 1st-level power, it goes into the stone as a 1st-level power, with the manifester level at whatever he wants up to his maximum level.

    There now exists in the world a power stone of haste with a manifester level of 1.
    Yes, so far so good, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    The psionic artificer can craft this item. He does so by using the Imprint Stone feat, and making a Use Psionic Device check to emulate the haste power as a 1st-level Spell to Power Erudite who added it to his repertoire from a trapsmith to meet the power prerequisite for crafting the item.
    ...here's where it goes wrong. He can't emulate the haste power because haste isn't a power for him, it's a spell. Haste is only a power for the erudite who originally learned it.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2019-01-06 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It's clearly the equivalent power. 20-foot radius of fire damage with long range, Reflex half, SR: Yes.
    Except it can deal other damage types that Fireball can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Right. Similarly, if an erudite were to craft a dorje of a spell, then anyone could use UPD to activate it—but a psionic artificer couldn't have crafted that same dorje, because the spell is only a power for that particular erudite.
    That doesn't follow. If anyone can use UPD to activate it, why can't an Psionic Artificer use her UPD to emulate it?

    That same Erudite can teach that spell that he converted into a power to another Manifester via Psychic Chirurgery.

    It is now a Psionic power. Otherwise, you couldn't activate it via UPD in the first place.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-06 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Except it can deal other damage types that Fireball can't.
    Yeah, but it's clearly the equivalent. And for a necklace of fireballs, you only need the fire damage anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    That doesn't follow. If anyone can use UPD to activate it, why can't an Psionic Artificer use her UPD to emulate it?
    Because dorjes are power trigger items, and the rules for power trigger items allow you to make a UPD check to activate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    That same Erudite can teach that spell that he converted into a power to another Manifester via Psychic Chirurgery.
    Yes, because the text of psychic chirurgery specifically allows it. Similarly, if you got the erudite to help you in the crafting, then you could totally have them supply the prerequisite.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Yeah, but it's clearly the equivalent. And for a necklace of fireballs, you only need the fire damage anyway.
    Really, at this point it's moot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Because dorjes are power trigger items, and the rules for power trigger items allow you to make a UPD check to activate them.
    But you can only store powers in Dorjes. If the spell converted to a power can be stored in one, it follows that it is now a power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Yes, because the text of psychic chirurgery specifically allows it.
    The text allows for you to teach another Manifester a power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Similarly, if you got the erudite to help you in the crafting, then you could totally have them supply the prerequisite.
    If the spell exists as a power, then the Psonic Artificer can emulate it because they can emulate all powers.

    This isn't like class spell lists. If a spell is available to one character as a power, than it is a power, period.

    Similarly, if a spell is available to an Arcane caster, it is an Arcane spell and can be legally stored in Eternal Wands.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    He can't emulate the haste power because haste isn't a power for him, it's a spell. Haste is only a power for the erudite who originally learned it.
    Wind wall isn't a spell for a normal artificer either.
    Neither is haste.

    It doesn't have to be a spell or power for the artificer. It just has to be a spell or power for someone.

    If anyone can do it, the artificer can do it also. The artificer is doing it exactly the same way as the person they are copying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    But you can only store powers in Dorjes. If the spell converted to a power can be stored in one, it follows that it is now a power.
    Yes, it's a power for the erudite who crafted the item, which is why they were able to craft it. Nobody else has the ability to convert it to a power.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The text allows for you to teach another Manifester a power.
    And it's a power for you, and you're the one manifesting psychic chirurgery. The specific text of the power then allows you to teach it to someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    If the spell exists as a power, then the Psonic Artificer can emulate it because they can emulate all powers.

    This isn't like class spell lists. If a spell is available to one character as a power, than it is a power, period.
    How is it not like class spell lists? "If a spell is available to one character as a bard spell, then it is a bard spell, period." Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Wind wall isn't a spell for a normal artificer either.
    Neither is haste.
    Of course they are. They're still spells. They're just not on the artificer's class spell list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    If anyone can do it, the artificer can do it also. The artificer is doing it exactly the same way as the person they are copying.
    You don't copy a person when you craft an item. You can't be like, "I'm gonna craft this item, but I'm going to craft it as if I were Aerekka the Epic Wizard, who has Legendary Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, Efficient Item Creation, and the Disciple of Boccob ACF." Item creation does not work that way.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    A simple advantage psionic has over regular is their wands aka dorjes go up to 9th, which is extremely good for making UMD checks and not having any issues with stats being too low.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Yes, it's a power for the erudite who crafted the item, which is why they were able to craft it. Nobody else has the ability to convert it to a power.


    And it's a power for you, and you're the one manifesting psychic chirurgery. The specific text of the power then allows you to teach it to someone else.


    How is it not like class spell lists? "If a spell is available to one character as a bard spell, then it is a bard spell, period." Right?
    Okay, at this point, I think we're talking past each other. I'm going to drop to line of of debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    A simple advantage psionic has over regular is their wands aka dorjes go up to 9th, which is extremely good for making UMD checks and not having any issues with stats being too low.
    True.

    EDIT: Couldn't a regular Artificer use a Greater Glyph Seal?

    But I was also thinking that standard Artificers can use Wand Surge combined with Unfettered Heroism to get infinite use wands.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-06 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Yes, it's a power for the erudite who crafted the item, which is why they were able to craft it. Nobody else has the ability to convert it to a power.
    And the artificer is meeting the spell prerequisite in exactly the same way as the Spell to Power erudite is. Instead of using one of his known powers, he is making a UPD check.


    You don't copy a person when you craft an item. You can't be like, "I'm gonna craft this item, but I'm going to craft it as if I were Aerekka the Epic Wizard, who has Legendary Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, Efficient Item Creation, and the Disciple of Boccob ACF." Item creation does not work that way.
    Correct. Item Creation specifically cannot be used to meet feat requirements. Only power prerequisites, and nonpower perquisites other than feats and skills.

    "A [psionic] artificer can create a [psionic] item even if he does not have access to the [powers] that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use [Psionic] Device check (DC 20 + [manifester] level) to emulate each [power] normally required to create the item."

    To create a power stone of haste at caster level 1 requires normally requires haste as a 1st-level power known. A psionic artificer makes a UPD check to emulate that power to meet that prerequisite as a Spell to Power erudite would.

    In exactly the same way a normal artificer would emulate the spell as a trapsmith would.

    How is this unclear?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Correct. Item Creation specifically cannot be used to meet feat requirements. Only power prerequisites, and nonpower perquisites other than feats and skills.

    "A [psionic] artificer can create a [psionic] item even if he does not have access to the [powers] that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use [Psionic] Device check (DC 20 + [manifester] level) to emulate each [power] normally required to create the item."

    To create a power stone of haste at caster level 1 requires normally requires haste as a 1st-level power known. A psionic artificer makes a UPD check to emulate that power to meet that prerequisite as a Spell to Power erudite would.

    In exactly the same way a normal artificer would emulate the spell as a trapsmith would.

    How is this unclear?
    "A dorje is a slender crystal that contains a single power."

    Haste isn't a power. The only way to treat it as a power is with a class feature that you don't have and can't emulate.

    The erudite can do it because they do have the ability to treat it as a power. You don't.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2019-01-06 at 06:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    A one level dip into either Ardent or Erudite (mantled variant) to pick up Magic Mantle would allow for total transparency.

    Is this dip worth it? Or does it delay the Psionic Artificer's advancement too much?
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2019-01-06 at 06:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    A one level dip into either Ardent or Erudite (mantled variant) to pick up Magic Mantle would allow for total transparency.
    Magic Mantle only allows for normal transparency. In fact it references the normal transparency rules directly. It would not affect the artificer's crafting abilities in any meaningful way.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    "A dorje is a slender crystal that contains a single power."

    Haste isn't a power. The only way to treat it as a power is with a class feature that you don't have and can't emulate.

    The erudite can do it because they do have the ability to treat it as a power. You don't.
    Haste also isn't a 1st-level spell either, unless trapsmiths exist.

    The only way to treat it as a 1st-level spell is by emulating it the same way a trapsmith would if they were using it as a prerequisite to craft an item.
    If trapsmiths exist, haste can be a 1st-level spell.

    Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire.
    ...
    Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers, they are no longer affected by metamagic feats. However, metapsionic feats can affect them as they would a psionic power.
    Erudites aren't "treating" spells as though they are powers. The spells are becoming powers. These spells are only "treated" as discipline powers for the purposes of learning it. A Spell to Power erudite applies the same mechanics they use for learning discipline powers to learning spells. After they have learned them, they are now powers.

    If Spell to Power erudites exist, haste can be a 1st-level power. And a psionic artificer can emulate that power for the purposes of meeting crafting prerequisites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: Standard Artificer VS Psionic Artificer

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Magic Mantle only allows for normal transparency. In fact it references the normal transparency rules directly. It would not affect the artificer's crafting abilities in any meaningful way.
    That is incorrect. Magic Mantle states that it enables transparency, but that's not what it does:

    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Psionic Pg. 70
    In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.
    That is not the same as:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Psionic Power Overview
    Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

    When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

    Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

    All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

    The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

    Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
    These are not the same, at all.

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