Fencing

[...Eh?]

Just out of curiosity, are there any PrCls or the like that would support someone fighting with nothing but a rapier, other than Duelist? I was thinking of making such a character, so I was thinking Swashbuckler/Rogue/Duelist, but are there any better options? I'm assuming I'd have to have fair Int, Dex, and Str for an effective melee fighter like this, and maybe Cha for the fluff.

[BardicDuelist]

What level are you going for?

A rogue/swashbuckeler with daring outlaw works really well as your sneek attack continues as you take swashbuckler levels.

The riposte variant for the scout class works really well too, especially if you can convince your DM to let Swift Ambusher stack for riposte instead of sneek attack. Then you have a character who emulates the feinting and riposting of fencing rather well.

The first few levels of Factotum can make a surprisingly good fencer, and stacked with swashbuckler, rogue, or scout(variant) you get a nice thing.

If it had a better BAB, the scout/rogue is the most realistic, but taking the factotum can really boost AC and damage outputs. Rogue/swashbuckler is probably the most optimal.

The duelist PRC really isn't that good. If you want int to AC, pick it up with a few level dip in factotum, that way you don't have to waste feats on prereqs and get some useful abilities to boot.

All of these options work well without a low Str, which is more like fencing (a high strength is actually bad as it promotes poor handling of the weapon). INT and DEX are the most important for a fencer, but for the fluff of a swashbuckler (not the class, but the arcatype) CHA is needed too.

[Dhavaer]

I second Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw. Deadly Defence is another good feat.

Alternately, you could be a Warblade or Swordsage, and use Diamond Mind/Iron Heart maneuvers. Emerald Razor and Wall of Blades would be good ones.

[Dr. Weasel]

Not the best class, but the Bladesinger's designed to use a single weapon (rapier or longsword) and gets some nice bonuses (by which I mean Duelist-ish stuff, but while you wear armor) though it's a bit caster-y and (Half-/)Elf-only. Swashbuckler 3/Duskblade 2 qualifies without too much trouble.

For non-casters, there's always the Warblade.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Dervish, maybe?

[Guy_Whozevl]

Just call your self Inigo Montoya and follow the stuff everyone else said with Daring Outlaw.

[Shas aia Toriia]

And make sure your father is dead.

[BardicDuelist]

And make sure your father is dead.

Actually, I pulled a Star Wars on somone who made a Montoya-esque character.

Player- "I am [insert character name]. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"
Me- "[Insert character name], I am your father."
Player- "WTF!?"

[TheOOB]

Considering the era of most D&D games, an adventurer character using a fencing weapon would probably carry a buckler strapped to their off hand to help with parrying attacks. There really is little reason to not use a buckler with a one handed weapon unless you focusing on straight rapier on rapier combat.

[BardicDuelist]

Considering the era of most D&D games, an adventurer character using a fencing weapon would probably carry a buckler strapped to their off hand to help with parrying attacks. There really is little reason to not use a buckler with a one handed weapon unless you focusing on straight rapier on rapier combat.

Really, the rapier didn't exist in the era of most D&D games. It is an anachronism, but a welcome one in my book.

My games take place in a 17th centruy-ish setting (the ish is because magic has made some technology develop slower and some societal things considerably different).

[TheOOB]

Really, the rapier didn't exist in the era of most D&D games. It is an anachronism, but a welcome one in my book.

My games take place in a 17th centruy-ish setting (the ish is because magic has made some technology develop slower and some societal things considerably different).

I've always imagined the rapier to be more of a side-sword or small-sword(the precursors to the rapier), though in reality they should have the ability to be used as slashing weapons. Real rapiers didn't come along until later, and where primarily used against other rapiers, especially when you talk about the very thin bladed court rapiers with diamond tips. A sword designed purely for piercing has very little use in a battlefield.

[BardicDuelist]

I've always imagined the rapier to be more of a side-sword or small-sword(the precursors to the rapier), though in reality they should have the ability to be used as slashing weapons. Real rapiers didn't come along until later, and where primarily used against other rapiers, especially when you talk about the very thin bladed court rapiers with diamond tips. A sword designed purely for piercing has very little use in a battlefield.

The rapier in D&D is a piercing only weapon, and thus not a side-sword, used for cut and thrust (which was more of a military rapier and only predated it by a few decades).

The small-sword actually evolved from the rapier and was used in the 17 and 18th centuries. It is a purely thrusting weapon.

Real rapiers were used in the 16 and 17th centuries. They were used in duels against a variety of swords, but became predominant due to their advantage in single combat.

The court rapiers you refer to are small-swords.

I agree that they are not very useful in the battlefield (where a saber or saber variant was the predominant sword until WWI when sword use stopped). D&D, however, does not usually find itself in a battlefield situation. In single combat and skirmishes, the rapier is an excellent weapon. These are more widely found in D&D,

Mechanically, you don't get much on an advantage with a rapier in game terms. It is mostly for flavor, but is really the best weapon for a fencer.

To OP- When playing a fencer, know that you are an anacronism that will probably not be noticed by other players. Historical context doesn't really matter at that point. The degree of accuracy or optimization you want can make the build vary, as will the specific flavor.

Also, as far as PRCs go, in Races of Stone, there is a PRC for gnome swashbucklers which is quite good.

[AtomicKitKat]

Also, as far as PRCs go, in Races of Stone, there is a PRC for gnome swashbucklers which is quite good.

Blade Bravo. Also one of the few "fencing" classes that actually has a move called "Riposte".

[TheOOB]

Blade Bravo. Also one of the few "fencing" classes that actually has a move called "Riposte".

Really, a riposte is a technique common among almost all schools of swordsman ship, be it fencing or otherwise. Turning a parry into an attack is one of the most important aspects of any combat style.

[Iudex Fatarum]

I actualy have been reading some history on fencing, in combat a rapier can be useful. the problem is one of the schools of fighting has you break off the tip of the blade inside your opponents arm pit (or any other weakness in armour). this allows the blade to continue causing pain and damage as the person fights eventualy killing them. I would like to create a viable fencer using rapier/blade breaker combo. a simple blade breaker is fitting but not stated out.

I personaly like the idea of a fencing class who allows reposting, but then again i'd like a spell that allows a duel, and insists upon it, basicly a verbal contract neither person can break and no one can interfeer with. (think a pocket dimension type thing)

[TheOOB]

Riposting is easy, you just need to take Robiler's Gambit or Karmaic Strike(i believe thats whats it's called). You can take a defensive penalty to make an AoO on whoever attacks you.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

If you're going to be using Daring Outlaw, Enhander is a fairly good feat for you.

[Zincorium]

If you're going to be using Daring Outlaw, Enhander is a fairly good feat for you.

Honestly, I wouldn't say it is. The benefits you gain are fairly specific to certain situations, and are very, very mediocre.

Fighting with two weapons is really a much better choice, since you've got a good bonus to attack and plenty of extra damage that applies equally to most attacks you make.

[Jannex]

If you're going to be using Daring Outlaw, Enhander is a fairly good feat for you.

I'd been looking for Einhander, so I could decide whether I wanted to recommend it or not, but I couldn't find it. Which book has it?

[Dr. Weasel]

It's in the PHB2. It's only regularly applicable benefit is +2 to AC when fighting defensively with an empty hand.

[Zincorium]

Hm. I suppose getting improved unarmed strike and hitting people with that hand that has to remain empty would still technically apply, but it's certainly not in the flavor of it.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

You're looking at it the wrong way. You take it and Quick Draw. They attack, you hit twice. You do your toss, make the Bluff, then BAM! bring in a dagger. Free TWF Sneak Attack full attack.

[slexlollar89]

I made a swash/deulist that had a rapier, and used unarmed attacks. He was the paragon fencer/fighter and was a scoundrel in the truest sense of the word (flirting, drinking, robbing etc.).The unarmed strike can work really well if used properly, and provides fun opportunities.

There is a homebrew class somebody made called The Master of Duels, I looked it up on google. It's really cool, but the BAB is messed up. You might want to check it out.

[Dervag]

I actualy have been reading some history on fencing, in combat a rapier can be useful. the problem is one of the schools of fighting has you break off the tip of the blade inside your opponents arm pit (or any other weakness in armour). this allows the blade to continue causing pain and damage as the person fights eventualy killing them. I would like to create a viable fencer using rapier/blade breaker combo. a simple blade breaker is fitting but not stated out.

The blade breaking tactic would be of limited effectiveness, and would rely on your sword having a breakaway tip (in which case it's also likely to break if you miss and hit the opponent's armor). Moreover, each sword can only be used once. Fine for a duel if you have plenty of money; not so hot for a fight against multiple opponents.

Also, looking at the opinions of experienced people on this forum, it is generally agreed that it's more effective to win battles by attacking your opponent directly than by hitting them with some kind of long-term weakening effect that reduces them a little bit each round. Such an effect won't break their combat ability for at least a few rounds, possibly several; during which time they can still kill you.

As a specific move for your swordsman it might be a good idea, perhaps something like the rogue's Crippling Strike (or Arterial Strike, which does damage per turn but is not in the SRD, it seems). But as the primary tactic of your fighting style it is too inflexible, because it only works well if you can easily avoid being attacked by your enemy for several rounds and if you never need to use that sword again.

[BardicDuelist]

The blade breaking tactic would be of limited effectiveness, and would rely on your sword having a breakaway tip (in which case it's also likely to break if you miss and hit the opponent's armor). Moreover, each sword can only be used once. Fine for a duel if you have plenty of money; not so hot for a fight against multiple opponents.

Also, looking at the opinions of experienced people on this forum, it is generally agreed that it's more effective to win battles by attacking your opponent directly than by hitting them with some kind of long-term weakening effect that reduces them a little bit each round. Such an effect won't break their combat ability for at least a few rounds, possibly several; during which time they can still kill you.

As a specific move for your swordsman it might be a good idea, perhaps something like the rogue's Crippling Strike (or Arterial Strike, which does damage per turn but is not in the SRD, it seems). But as the primary tactic of your fighting style it is too inflexible, because it only works well if you can easily avoid being attacked by your enemy for several rounds and if you never need to use that sword again.

This biggest problem, both in D&D and real combat, with a long-term weakening strategy is that they can still kill you while weakened. You will probably both end up dead, which isn't good for either of you.

[Stabby]

I have a char in a current campaign that is a Errol Flynn type. If you are going the rogue path, Impoved Crit (rapier) and Telling Blow (PHBII) is great. A 15-20 crit range where if you crit you do sneak attack damage is great.

[BardicDuelist]

I have a char in a current campaign that is a Errol Flynn type. If you are going the rogue path, Impoved Crit (rapier) and Telling Blow (PHBII) is great. A 15-20 crit range where if you crit you do sneak attack damage is great.

Keen is a bit better, because feats can be better spent.

Swash/Rogue with DO, Expertise, Deadly Defense, and Improved Feint is great.

The draw back is that when things are immune to crit and mindaffecting stuff, fencers aren't that good.

The first four levels of Factotum give you everything a fencer needs:
1. Want the Int to AC from duelist? Level 3
2. Want to pull off crazy acrobatics? Level 1 gives you Int to skill checks.
3. Want to not rely on strength to hit? Level 1 gives you Int to attack.
4. Want to never miss? Level 3 arcane dilliante true strike.
5. Sneek attack? At level 4 you can do it better than a rogue (but less often).

It's perfect, but it is certianly a good start.

Heck, at level 5 you get oppertunistic piety, which you could probably use to justify taking divine feats. Cha to AC, attack, and damage never hurts a swashbuckler.

Then again, if you want to be similar to a specific swashbuckler, let me know and I can help.

Cyrano? D'Artanian? Errol Flynn's characters? Aramis, Athos, or Porthos? Dantes? Montoya? Capt. Jack? Will Turner? etc.

[Stabby]

Well, the reason I went Imp Crit is because this is a ultra low magic world, so it was more a matter of neccessity, but I agree, keen is preferable.

[...Eh?]

Alright, so, I was thinking about this, and I was wondering about the following build: (Level 10, taking into account large law) Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Scout 3/Rogue 1. I'm fairly sure there's a feat like Daring Outlaw that allows Rogue and Scout levels to stack for skirmish and sneak attack, so with, say Spring Attack, Improved Skirmish, Boots of Striding and Springing and a weapon with the Blurring special ability from RotW, I could move forewards 20 feet, deal 9d6 damage, and move back. On a crit, that's 1d6x2+18d6, unless I'm misunderstanding the description of Telling Blow.

[Stabby]

One thing to be aware of, a crit doesnt double SA damage. That would be broken.