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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah so #959 is the strip where bandana mentions her female ex. Two pages into the corresponding discussion thread and people are already complaining how "forced" that was. so yes, I do think that people will "treat the characters" or at least react to them differently according to their sexuality.
    Were any of the people participating in that discussion the same people who are participating in this one. Because if not, I don't think you can infer any pattern of opposing different sexualities wherever they arise, or imply any faulty logic used in that debate to the people participating in this one.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seward View Post
    I imagine a Haley vs Belkar fight to go one of two ways, assuming it didn't start at close range with no surprise round where he would blenderize her with TWF+strength+decent weapons+favored enemy human.

    1. Imagine the Belkar vs Miko fight but with Haley instead of Miko. Both would be trying to use stealth/ambush but Haley's better at it (or at least was when the Order started based on Book 0). Even if they're about the same, Belkar just gets favored enemy human where Haley gets sneak attack whenever she sticks a surprise attack on him. They've got similar number of attacks (TWF vs boots of speed) but Haley's faster (boots of speed) which means she can break contact, hide, then sneak attack over and over, out of range of a counter attack.

    2. Haley bluffs him into surprise attack plus beats him in an initiative check (she seems to have feats and stuff invested in that). If Belkar didn't take the second level of Barbarian to get uncanny dodge, he's flatfooted and she'll get something like 6 sneak attacks in. Pretty much how she killed Crystal in the shower.

    Edit - oh yeah, wand of fly. Belkar's toast if she can fly out of reach and he doesn't drop her on the first round.
    Or Belkar simply moves into an enclosed space, and then out melees hayley when she gets close. Your reasoning assumes that Belkar chases Hayley. That seems much more likely than some sort of guerilla battle where Hayley continuously hides (remembering she has to get out of his sight before hiding), something I don't recall us seeing from her before at all.

    As noted, on the evidence of their success in fights so far (particularly the thieves guild where they both fought the same enemies) Belkar has a outperformed Hayley.

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Of course it’s something that can be known and of course people are going to discuss the characters and what they think their character traits are. Given that Durkon is a fictional character I’m pretty sure no one is going to be treating him any way about it. Unless they have magical powers to insert the self into stories. Which would be pretty cool but I doubt anyone would decide that the best use would be bothering fictional bisexuals.
    Yeah so #959 is the strip where bandana mentions her female ex. Two pages into the corresponding discussion thread and people are already complaining how "forced" that was. so yes, I do think that people will "treat the characters" or at least react to them differently according to their sexuality.
    Were any of the people participating in that discussion the same people who are participating in this one. Because if not, I don't think you can infer any pattern of opposing different sexualities wherever they arise, or imply any faulty logic used in that debate to the people participating in this one.
    CriticalFailure said they were pretty sure no-one was going to treat Durkon differently because of his sexuality. I provided an example of people who would. I'm not inferring anything about the debate that s currently happening.

    Also, on this forum it is considered bad form to double post rather than editing your own post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    I mean, the original question being discussed was what order Durkon would place his marriage choices in. To say that he would choose Hayley first because he's more likely straight (due to real world statistics or due to his reaction to naked Elan) is speculation. To say that he would choose Roy first because they're closer friends is also speculation, and it carries the implication that Durkon is bisexual (or that other factors would trump sexual orientation for him, even though in the real world sexual orientation tends to be a huge factor). To say that we can't speculate on his orientation is to say that we can't speculate on who he would marry in the first place, because there's just no getting around it. And in general to discuss who he would want to marry requires bringing in our real life experiences.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    To say that we can't speculate on his orientation is to say that we can't speculate on who he would marry in the first place
    Indeed, that would be nice. Can we go back to talking about Hilgya? That discussion was going places.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    It’s not really a touchy topic given that there has been an explicitly bi character for a while. Concluding that he’s straight based on his relationship with Hilgya, interest in Haley (human), and disinterest in Elan (explicitly attractive human) and other men is a pretty reasonable inference..
    This is the important part. Also, everything Zimmerwald said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Of course it does, it's latin, it has everything. But I have enough trouble with sujunctive in my own native tongue. Why bring it up, though?
    Because nearly everything uses it. A list:
    Hortatory subjunctive - when urging somebody, for instance: "Dicamus linguam latinum".)
    Purpose clauses - dico linguam latinum ut vexam
    Result clauses - Hilgya tam mala ut necaret Durkonem
    Cum clauses - Cum certamen vincam, laeta sum
    Indirect Questions - Scio cur Vaarsuvius esset malus
    Fear Clauses - Vereor ne non vincant
    And some types of conditional sentences, which I don't feel like writing right now.
    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-01-11 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Zimmerman
    I'm sure this is an autocorrect error, but it is "zimmerwald." A zimmermann is a carpenter, someone who works with timber. A zimmerwald is a timber wood - a forest where wood suitable for carpentry (whether by nature or because it wasn't e.g. a hunting reserve) grows.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-01-11 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Carthago delenda est

    You are thinking of the possible alternative "Ceterum censeo delendam esse Carthaginem".

    ETA:


    Either you've put in one "not" too many, or I'm up the creek without a paddle.

    Grey Wolf
    Weird. Never heard of the short form "Carthago delenda est."

    Anyway, the link you provided also doesn't know the form
    "Censeo Carthago delenda est"
    as you use it.
    It only knows the full form
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
    or two short forms:
    "Ceterum censeo"
    or
    "Carthago delenda est"

    Notably the citations in the end of the article, all use the accusative form (which may be why I only know that one from Latin school).

    And to me your version still looks weird.

    Censeo means "I think"
    From what I remember one must follow that up with either a word like "that", as in:
    "I think that (Carthago must be destroyed, for example")
    Alternatively, one can use the "accusative plus esse" construct, which works without a conjunction word, as in:
    "I think (censeo) Carthago (Carthaginem) to be (esse) a one to be destroyed (delendam)"

    I think the "Carthago delenda est" only works as a full sentence, and must be connected with a conjunction word when used as a dependent clause.

    But again - I could be wrong. Or, my former Latin teacher :-P Although I will take full credits for the mistake if indeed all forms are fomally correct.

    Anyway, the Romans probably definately used their language back in the day like we use ours - sloppily.

    @Fyra: you sure? you sound sure


    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    What about subjunctive mood? Does Latin have that?
    I first didn't know what that was, because the term is completely different in German.

    But YES, Latin had that. In spades. Basically, subjunctive mood was the hell you came into when you thought you had finally learned enough Latin to be passable. Luckily, modern languages have rationalised away some of that, but some are still hard enough, I guess. :-)
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-01-11 at 05:27 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm sure this is an autocorrect error, but it is "zimmerwald." A zimmermann is a carpenter, someone who works with timber. A zimmerwald is a timber wood - a forest where wood suitable for carpentry (whether by nature or because it wasn't e.g. a hunting reserve) grows.
    It was me being a fool. I apologise, and have corrected the error.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    This is the important part. Also, everything Zimmerwald said.


    Because nearly everything uses it. A list:
    Hortatory subjunctive - when urging somebody, for instance: "Dicamus linguam latinum".)
    Purpose clauses - dico linguam latinum ut vexam
    Result clauses - Hilgya tam mala ut necaret Durkonem
    Cum clauses - Cum certamen vincam, laeta sum
    Indirect Questions - Scio cur Vaarsuvius esset malus
    Fear Clauses - Vereor ne non vincant
    And some types of conditional sentences, which I don't feel like writing right now.
    Dedo! Misere! Dedo!

    My latin is way too rusty to keep this up.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-01-11 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Dedo! Miserere! Dedo!

    My latin is way too rusty to keep this up.
    Not to be excessively pedantic, but I think you meant either misereo or miserete. The former is "I pity" and the latter pity! as a plural imperative.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Of course it does, it's latin, it has everything.
    Bah, it doesn't even have a dual number!
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    It's so much better than 20 pages about Hilgya. Or 50 pages about Hilgya.
    Yeah, i suposse :/

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Bah, it doesn't even have a dual number!
    You want us to memorise more charts? I am quite okay with 10 or so large ones, please don't go increasing that number.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Haley is a human.
    Possibly half-celestial
    Grey Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by Seward View Post
    In my example Belkar's fighting Haley, so human.

    I assume he has that, given how lethal he's been shown to be vs humans (see Thieves Guild Fight, for example) but it isn't proven in-game (where favored enemy undead is strongly implied to be picked up during the resistance phase). He has enough favored enemies by now to have several, in my headcanon most likely are goblinoid, human and undead, possibly giant (I think you get 4 by level 15). Class Geekery thread might have better breakdown.
    Ah, yeah. I uncarefully read Hilgya instead of Haley.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post

    Lastly, here's a thought: What if Durkon's "type" is... Small-sized?
    Ogling Haley might be evidence against his attraction being exclusively to small-sized :)

    We really do have very little information about what attracts his eye. I'm in the camp it doesn't matter much anyway except maybe as a tie-breaker for marriage partner ranking anyway, compared to all those other Lawful and perhaps Thor Religious considerations that would carry weight.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Weird. Never heard of the short form "Carthago delenda est."
    Really? I was surprised to learn there are other forms.

    Then again I know english speakers quote "Et tu, Brute" rather than "Tu quoque, mi fili", so maybe we should remember the words of a wise man

    "I never said half the **** the Internet keeps quoting me on."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    @Fyar: you sure? you sound sure
    Fyra. And I sound surer than I am, haven't done any latin for five years, and I never got the hang of verbal adjectives. Ask Caerulea, they look like they got it together.



    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Not to be excessively pedantic, but I think you meant either misereo or miserete. The former is "I pity" and the latter pity! as a plural imperative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Fyra. And I sound surer than I am, haven't done any latin for five years, and I never got the hang of verbal adjectives. Ask Caerulea, they look like they got it together.
    What I have is a latin quiz in a few days, the internet, Whitaker's words, and my notes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    There is only one of you, isn't there?
    Miserere is to pity. You wanted Misere then. To form the singular imperative from a normal verb, remove the "re" from the infinitive. Misero te.
    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-01-11 at 05:15 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    You want us to memorise more charts? I am quite okay with 10 or so large ones, please don't go increasing that number.
    Well, I could either mention a feature that would mean more charts, or mention the T-V distinction, and I couldn't hope to steer the conversation towards the awesomeness of Old English by doing the latter.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    As noted, on the evidence of their success in fights so far (particularly the thieves guild where they both fought the same enemies) Belkar has a outperformed Hayley.
    It really comes down to who gets to set up their kind of fight.

    In a confined area where Haley can't use her mobility from boots or her flying wand, and where Haley doesn't bluff Belkar into a suprise+full attack sneak-attack-fest, Belkar wins.

    Otherwise Haley wins, because she can do damage to him from out of reach, and he has no way to retaliate or heal, or because she kills him before he can react.

    On balance, because Haley has much stronger social skills, (see walking Crystal right into a deathtrap after a full fledged fight) the odds that Haley could set up a situation to her avantage seems stronger than Belkar setting up a situation that favors him. Barring a random homicidal attack in a confined space that came out of nowhere, perhaps because of remote mind control (as with Nale back in the day).

    This is the basic "thief class vs fighter class" rock-paper-scissors thing. Which is why Belkar did so well against the thieves (and Roy back vs the bandits at close range when they didn't surprise him). In a straight up fight, the d10-hit-die-full-bab, all-I-do-is-hit-things class is going to beat the d6-2/3 bab-skill oriented+sneak attack class every time, unless the latter gets suprise+massive numbers of sneak attacks or can set up a hit-and-run situation or gets an air-barrier (flying archer vs melee)

    If Belkar was an archer-style ranger who actually kept up with his spot/listen skills, he'd beat Haley every time. But as a melee-type with low wisdom and thus low spot/listen/sense motive in spite of it being a class skill....she can set up situations where she reliably wins.
    Last edited by Seward; 2019-01-11 at 05:19 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Bah, it doesn't even have a dual number!
    Sure it does, look: II


    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Miserere is to pity. You wanted Misere then. To form the singular imperative from a normal verb, remove the "re" from the infinitive. Misero te.
    You're right.
    Too many "re" at the end of that word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Well, I could either mention a feature that would mean more charts, or mention the T-V distinction, and I couldn't hope to steer the conversation towards the awesomeness of Old English by doing the latter.
    I know little of Old English. Any particularly interesting facts you'd like to share?

    (Also, I learned the actual name for the T-V distinction today! Is the etymology tu-vous in french?)

    Oh, also, Fyraltari. Permission to put this in my extended sig?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Ask Caerulea, they look like they got it together.
    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-01-11 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm sure this is an autocorrect error, but it is "zimmerwald." A zimmermann is a carpenter, someone who works with timber. A zimmerwald is a timber wood - a forest where wood suitable for carpentry (whether by nature or because it wasn't e.g. a hunting reserve) grows.
    TIL. I thought it was referring to something different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    You want us to memorise more charts?
    I saw this, got all excited to make a joke about Latin, and then realized it was already talking about Latin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Pretty sure people speculate on the sexuality of others for innocuous reasons in real life all the time, say when they’re trying to get a date and want to know if their crush is compatible. Also, a couple of people whining about minority characters is in no way equivalent to someone treating a real person different.

    With regards to that, I wouldn’t assume that the author is writing with the assumption that the readers are all mentally deficient, bigots, and/or small children who need to be taught social basics, and that implications that a character is straight without explicit confirmation can be taken at face value.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Oh, also, Fyraltari. Permission to put this in my extended sig?
    It would be my honor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Pretty sure people speculate on the sexuality of others for innocuous reasons in real life all the time, say when they’re trying to get a date and want to know if their crush is compatible. Also, a couple of people whining about minority characters is in no way equivalent to someone treating a real person different.

    With regards to that, I wouldn’t assume that the author is writing with the assumption that the readers are all mentally deficient, bigots, and/or small children who need to be taught social basics, and that implications that a character is straight without explicit confirmation can be taken at face value.
    What implications? There is a scene that can be used as evidence that a character is straight, but nothing in the comic is meant to imply that. Those are two very different things; to say that something in a work implies something else is to assert either intent or a level of certainty, neither of which can reasonably said to be present, especially when the source of this supposed implication is in DCF.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Pretty sure people speculate on the sexuality of others for innocuous reasons in real life all the time, say when they’re trying to get a date and want to know if their crush is compatible.
    And that would be wrong.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    And that would be wrong.
    Why? ......
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    I don’t find “he’s not implied to be straight if you ignore all the times he expresses interest in women and disinterest in men” convincing tbh, and I’m mostly confused why people seem to be indignant about others not ignoring the implications of those scenes

  30. - Top - End - #630
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Probably because, unless Elan is pluralized, there are no scenes where he expresses disinterest in men.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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