Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 8 of 32 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415161718 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 934
  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    My issue is that I'm pretty sure I'm expected to think of the current book as having a villain, not being the equivalent of a disaster film about battling a hurricane.
    The book has a villain either way, what with all of this ultimately being Hel's plan, and the vampires just a vehicle to get it moving.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-01-12 at 07:39 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    The book has a villain either way, what with all of this ultimately being Hel's plan, and the vampires just a vehicle to get it moving.
    Pretty sure Hel's plan is just there so the Order (especially Durkon) could confront the vampires.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    My issue is that I'm pretty sure I'm expected to think of the current book as having a villain, not being the equivalent of a disaster film about battling a hurricane.
    A being can still be dangerous without possessing true intelligence, no?

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    The book has a villain either way, what with all of this ultimately being Hel's plan, and the vampires just a vehicle to get it moving.
    In light of the way the people of the previous world apparently addled Odin's brain, I am pretty sure that Hel has no choice but to remain evil as long as the Northerners associate death, destruction, and disease with evil. So, not an improvement.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Except, in this scenario, they aren't folks. They're predators, who are intent on murdering humans, and will if not stopped.
    There appear to be a variety of people who do not understand the vampire in Western literature, as a trope, and as a figure of evil. You appear to understand them, as did (in fiction) Van Helsing.
    Avatar by linklele
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number
    How Teleport Works

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    There appear to be a variety of people who do not understand the vampire in Western literature, as a trope, and as a figure of evil. You appear to understand them, as did (in fiction) Van Helsing.

    Appeal to tradition.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Tomorrow or Yesterday
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Spoiler: Start Of Darkness
    Show
    We know that it is entirely possible for a child of what? five-six year of age to spontaneously cast necromantic spells

    Would you call evil, killing everyone who fits into that category.

    But again, doing Necromancy is a choice, someone with Necromantic powers can very well abstain from using them. So yes I would call hunting and killing anyone with necromantic powers evil. Simply outlaw the use of Necromancy and punish those who practice it voluntarily. Yes a vampire who goes around making more vampires deserves to be stopped for killing people and trapping their souls, but their spawns are not responsible for their progenitor's action and should not be judged based on them.
    Remind me why necromancy is bad? Is it because it draws directly from The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ for power?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Exactly. Vampires in El Goonish Shive being all evil is not a problem because it's stated a few times that the only way to become a vampire is by choice. They chose to become an abomination who would need to regularly kill people and would be physiologically incapable of empathy and they knew that.
    Would something created from the start to be like those aberrations be evil, and would they be worthy of death
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
    Extended Signature.
    I'm not a humanoid. Come not be one too.
    Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!

    You may use whatever pronouns you like when referring to me.

    CPW, next time THINK before you post something stupid!

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Remind me why necromancy is bad? Is it because it draws directly from The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ for power?
    No.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Tomorrow or Yesterday
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No.

    Grey Wolf
    Ah. That clears it up. Very concise explanation.
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
    Extended Signature.
    I'm not a humanoid. Come not be one too.
    Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!

    You may use whatever pronouns you like when referring to me.

    CPW, next time THINK before you post something stupid!

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Remind me why necromancy is bad? Is it because it draws directly from The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ for power?
    In most cases it is bad: trapping somebody's soul or using their corpse without their consent is evil. It can be used for good though. Click on the link I put over "Millenial King" a few posts above for some examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Would something created from the start to be like those aberrations be evil, and would they be worthy of death
    There would be no point in calling such creature evil. And yes they then should be destroyed since they are a clear danger to everybody around them, containing them would just kill them in a crueler way and there wouldn't be a way to redeem them. Their lives simpl;y wouldn't be worth other people's. Of course the question then becomes why the author chose to have such creatures in their world and wether one should continue reading.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  11. - Top - End - #221
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Ah. That clears it up. Very concise explanation.
    Only some necromatic spells create undead. Spells with the (evil) tag are the ones that are evil to cast regardless of what you do with it. These are the necromantic spell that draw from negative plane more often than not.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-01-12 at 09:46 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Ah. That clears it up. Very concise explanation.
    I repeat myself enough as it is.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    In most cases it is bad: trapping somebody's soul or using their corpse without their consent is evil. It can be used for good though. Click on the link I put over "Millenial King" a few posts above for some examples.


    There would be no point in calling such creature evil. And yes they then should be destroyed since they are a clear danger to everybody around them, containing them would just kill them in a crueler way and there wouldn't be a way to redeem them. Their lives simpl;y wouldn't be worth other people's. Of course the question then becomes why the author chose to have such creatures in their world and wether one should continue reading.
    For what it's worth, when i'm doing undead, I always make sure they do something EVil, so you can't accuse me of using "born Evil" as a way to avoid having a real antagonist.

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    So let's see where we are at. Person gets turned into a vampire. Vampire spirit absorbs souls memories and realize it's an abomination because the memories were too spicy. Instead of destroying itself like we see in the comic, it hunts down a necromancer and a clerics to have them destroy, raise and revive itself and it's host.

    An unrelated adventurer later runs into the vampire, the vampire tell them it's story and detects as good. Adventurer believes the vampires story, but kills them anyways because it has grey skin and pointy fangs. Do I have the hypothetical senario correct?
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-01-12 at 10:19 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Tomorrow or Yesterday
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I meant about why necromancy is bad, not why The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ is no such thing. Fyraltari answered that though.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Only some necromatic spells create undead. Spells with the (evil) tag are the ones that are evil to cast regardless of what you do with it. These are the necromantic spell that draw from negative plane more often than not.
    This makes me more confused.
    Making somebody sick or creating skeletons (contagion, animate dead) is evil, but possessing somebody's body (magic jar) is fine. Hurting people (Symbol of Pain) is evil, but murdering them (Symbol of death) is fine. Creating stronger undead, or causing people to go into a coma (Eyebite, create [greater] undead) are evil. Straight up killing someone with Finger of Death, and then permanently trapping their soul in a gem (Soul bind) are not necessarily bad. (This is ignoring the myriad of spells from other schools which exist only to kill somebody, and have no Evil tag).
    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-01-12 at 10:37 PM.
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
    Extended Signature.
    I'm not a humanoid. Come not be one too.
    Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!

    You may use whatever pronouns you like when referring to me.

    CPW, next time THINK before you post something stupid!

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    So let's see where we are at. Person gets turned into a vampire. Vampire spirit absorbs souls memories and realize it's an abomination because the memories were too spicy. Instead of destroying itself like we see in the comic, it hunts down a necromancer and a clerics to have them destroy, raise and revive itself and it's host.

    An unrelated adventurer later runs into the vampire, the vampire tell them it's story and detects as good. Adventurer believes the vampires story, but kills them anyways because it has grey skin and pointy fangs. Do I have the hypothetical senario correct?
    That would be wrong. But, in my interpretation of D&D vampires, that would also never happen.

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    The issue with OOTSverse vampires is that, in the vast majority of cases, they're imprisoning someone's soul and usurping that person's control over their body without their consent. Which is really Evil for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.

    As Fyraltari pointed out, we do see one example of a vampire who has negotiated a more symbiotic relationship with their host, Ponchula. Presumably, a divination spell like Detect Thoughts would be capable of determining whether this is the case. So one could make an argument that someone who has access to such a spell should use it before killing a vampire (assuming that said vampire hasn't been engaging in Evil actions). But not everyone has access to divination spells. If, say, a barbarian comes across a vampire, I don't think it would be Evil for the barbarian to err on the side of freeing a slave and swing his greataxe at the vamp.

    Vampire may take Friend of Talky-Man's life, but he will never take Friend of Talky-Man's freedom!
    Forum Competition Awards
    1st place, Villainous Competition XXI

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Tomorrow or Yesterday
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Aka-chan View Post
    The issue with OOTSverse vampires is that, in the vast majority of cases, they're imprisoning someone's soul and usurping that person's control over their body without their consent. Which is really Evil for reasons that should hopefully be obvious.
    The thing is, it is not actually the fault of the created vampire that this is the case. They are in that situation because a god of death formed them from the negative energy plane and stuffed them in the corpse. They weren't asked permission, just found themselves there. The person more to blame is the creating vampire. It is not unreasonable for the vampire to want to live, and not commit suicide to free the host.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aka-chan View Post
    Vampire may take Friend of Talky-Man's life, but he will never take Friend of Talky-Man's freedom!
    Can I put this in my extended sig?
    Last edited by Caerulea; 2019-01-12 at 11:02 PM. Reason: "creating beer" was not what I meant to type
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
    Extended Signature.
    I'm not a humanoid. Come not be one too.
    Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!

    You may use whatever pronouns you like when referring to me.

    CPW, next time THINK before you post something stupid!

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    The thing is, it is not actually the fault of the created vampire that this is the case. They are in that situation because a god of death formed them from the negative energy plane and stuffed them in the corpse. They weren't asked permission, just found themselves there. The person more to blame is the creating vampire. It is not unreasonable for the vampire to want to live, and not commit suicide to free the host.
    It doesn't really matter who is to blame, the fact remains that with the way things work creating a vampire is an inherently evil act.

    Going "the vampire didn't choose to be created" doesn't matter.

    I could make an (obviously not 1-to-1) analogy to a certain something in real life, but that would probably be going too far.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-01-12 at 11:06 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Caerulea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Tomorrow or Yesterday
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    It doesn't really matter who is to blame, the fact remains that with the way things work creating a vampire is an inherently evil act.

    Going "the vampire didn't choose to be created" doesn't matter.

    I could make an (obviously totally not accurate) analogy to a certain something in real life, but that would probably be going too far.
    Creating a vampire is an evil act. Being the vampire that is created is not necessarily. The fact that by existing they entrap another soul is not an argument to the contrary.
    Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
    Extended Signature.
    I'm not a humanoid. Come not be one too.
    Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!

    You may use whatever pronouns you like when referring to me.

    CPW, next time THINK before you post something stupid!

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Creating a vampire is an evil act. Being the vampire that is created is not necessarily. The fact that by existing they entrap another soul is not an argument to the contrary.
    Necessarily? No. In practice? It overwhelmingly seems to be the case, probably because of those same channels that lead to its creation in the first place.

    And the whole "trapping an unwilling soul" thing can't just be forgotten in factoring in the good/evil/neutral value in destroying a vampire.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-01-12 at 11:10 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Pretty sure Hel's plan is just there so the Order (especially Durkon) could confront the vampires.
    Uh, no. The vampires are there to enact Hel's plan. Unless you suddenly want to talk about this from a story perspective rather than an in-universe perspective. Because you can certainly do both, but you can't switch back and forth based on what's convenient for your current point.

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mightymosy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    I meant about why necromancy is bad, not why The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ is no such thing. Fyraltari answered that though.

    Edit:

    This makes me more confused.
    Making somebody sick or creating skeletons (contagion, animate dead) is evil, but possessing somebody's body (magic jar) is fine. Hurting people (Symbol of Pain) is evil, but murdering them (Symbol of death) is fine. Creating stronger undead, or causing people to go into a coma (Eyebite, create [greater] undead) are evil. Straight up killing someone with Finger of Death, and then permanently trapping their soul in a gem (Soul bind) are not necessarily bad. (This is ignoring the myriad of spells from other schools which exist only to kill somebody, and have no Evil tag).
    See, this is exactly what weirds me out.
    Why is Symbol of Pain Evil and Symbol of Death not?!
    Why is creating a walking skeleton from someone's body (they already feast and dine in Valhalla, and probably don't care) Evil, but casting Disintegrate (PROBABLY on someone else, it's a combat spell) not?
    Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
    What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!

    I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.

    I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
    Want to see my prison tatoo?

    *Branded for double posting*
    Sometimes, being bad feels so good.

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    The thing is, it is not actually the fault of the created vampire that this is the case. They are in that situation because a god of death formed them from the negative energy plane and stuffed them in the corpse. They weren't asked permission, just found themselves there. The person more to blame is the creating vampire. It is not unreasonable for the vampire to want to live, and not commit suicide to free the host.
    A rabid dog is not guilty of it's condition, but if you see one you kill it all the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    There appear to be a variety of people who do not understand the vampire in Western literature, as a trope, and as a figure of evil. You appear to understand them, as did (in fiction) Van Helsing.
    It is interesting how many people fail to see the problem with a monster whose nature is the result of combining a cannibal, a serial killer, and a junkie.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-01-13 at 06:39 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Of Rivia View Post
    Okai,
    There are a few thing, I ll like to clarify.
    I m not advocating for killing of innocents being; and i agree with the general Theme, that Killing Evil beings just for being Evil is wrong.
    But, like every Hard rule, it has some exception, or grey areas. And i can think of two of them.

    [....]
    The second exception is Necromancy.
    The dnd universe is balanced. You have good wizard and you have evil wizard, you have paladins and you have blackguards, eccetera eccetera. But there is an inbalance to the rule, and it's Necromancy.
    Not only does Necromancy generates vreature who are by default hostile to living beings,that does not have a definite life cicle and that cannot be insered in any natural life cycle: it also generate creatures who are way more powerful than their original template, and in certain situation, even of the starting Necromancer. Case in point human Xykon and RedCloak: they were fairly powerful, but far from invincible, and they were defeated by Lirian. But when RedCloack used the ritualnof Lichdo on the Sorcerer, it created an almost unstoppable abomination, who crushed two epic characters.
    Fittingly, the only time it was defeated it was by using a sort of unconventional "good" necromancy, by an army of ghost Martyrs. Necromancy perverts not just the natural order, but also the games mechanic.
    Its a disruptive power, who cannot be allowed to freely roam.
    And a Vampire is not only an undead, but also a natural necromancer. A super-necromancer actually: one that can, given the right circumstances, create an Undead way more powerful than himself.

    Given this rational consideration, can you call someone who advocate for the destruction of Necromancers - and, to be clear, that is not my personal position - Evil? For sure, that is not Good: but Evil?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Remind me why necromancy is bad? Is it because it draws directly from The Plane Of Indisputable Evil and Bad Thingstm​ for power?

    Would something created from the start to be like those aberrations be evil, and would they be worthy of death
    I.made a case on why, in my opinion, necromancy is bad news.

    I want to add another consideration.
    Yes, there is the possibility of good necromancy, of good aligned undead. We see it with the ghost-martyrs. But they are extremely rare, and for a reason: that s because Necromancy is associated with UNTIMELY DEATH. And only very specific
    Circustances may make an untimely death good aligned. A noble soul sacrificing itself for the good of others, for example.
    But an evil untimely death? Freakishly more common.

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    A rabid dog is not guilty of it's condition, but if you see one you kill it all the same.
    A dog isn't a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    It is interesting how many people fail to see the problem with a monster whose nature is the result of combining a cannibal, a serial killer, and a junkie.
    It's interesting how many people fail to see that there is only a person if the author wants there to be one. It's disturbing how many people want there to be a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Of Rivia View Post
    I.made a case on why, in my opinion, necromancy is bad news.

    I want to add another consideration.
    Yes, there is the possibility of good necromancy, of good aligned undead. We see it with the ghost-martyrs. But they are extremely rare, and for a reason: that s because Necromancy is associated with UNTIMELY DEATH. And only very specific
    Circustances may make an untimely death good aligned. A noble soul sacrificing itself for the good of others, for example.
    But an evil untimely death? Freakishly more common.
    So? We should treat everything according to the majority of cases? Why not treat the different uses differently?
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RatElemental's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    I don't necessarily buy the idea that it's possible to use revive undead to free someone's soul and then have the vampire come back without retrapping it, for logistical problems if nothing else.

    First of all, revive undead won't work on a pile of ashes, nor will it work on the living body of the creature walking around after getting resurrected. So you'd have to somehow kill the vampire in a way that doesn't turn it into ashes (which is something we haven't seen happen) and I guess cut off a finger to resurrect while you revive the whole corpse left over?

    The only issue then is, you can't resurrect someone if there's currently an undead creature walking around using its corpse, so could you revive an undead creature whose 'corpse' is currently walking around being alive even if it was just part of the corpse you still have on hand?
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-01-13 at 07:10 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Valencia, Spain
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    A dog isn't a person.
    Neither is an Undead.

    Though, to be honest, I do not know what difference makes if we give a dog the category of "person" or not. The problem is not the dog, it's the condition.

    Neither the problem with an Undead is their species. Because they are not an species, they are a condition. An Undead made from the corpse of an orc or a goblin is the same problem than an undead made from the corpse of an elf, human or dwarf.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-01-13 at 08:02 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    hroşila's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I don't necessarily buy the idea that it's possible to use revive undead to free someone's soul and then have the vampire come back without retrapping it, for logistical problems if nothing else.

    First of all, revive undead won't work on a pile of ashes, nor will it work on the living body of the creature walking around after getting resurrected. So you'd have to somehow kill the vampire in a way that doesn't turn it into ashes (which is something we haven't seen happen) and I guess cut off a finger to resurrect while you revive the whole corpse left over?

    The only issue then is, you can't resurrect someone if there's currently an undead creature walking around using its corpse, so could you revive an undead creature whose 'corpse' is currently walking around being alive even if it was just part of the corpse you still have on hand?
    That's true, Revide Undead won't work because you need a whole or at least functional body for the spirit to return to. But it was more about the theoretical implications of that spell existing - namely, that it is possible for an undead spirit to be brought back, independently from their body's original living soul. In other words, that even undead that trap souls can potentially operate without those souls. Since that possibility exists, restoring the body of a vampire might be a matter of using a different spell beforehand, or maybe just one custom spell, since we know restoring bodies is possible too and that may or may not restore whatever link to the undead spirit is necessary for Revide Undead-like magic to work.

    The original idea was not about also resurrecting the living soul, although with sufficiently powerful magic it might be possible to have both versions walking around, each with their own copy of the body.
    ungelic is us

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Belkar's Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Neither is an Undead.
    Why? because they have grey skin and you don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Though, to be honest, I do not know what difference makes if we give a dog the category of "person" or not.
    Wow. You may want to dwell on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    The problem is not the dog, it's the condition.
    By this logic, we should kill humans infected with rabbies, you realize that? Since "the problem is not the [human], it's the condition" and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Neither the problem with an Undead is their species. Because they are not an species, they are a condition.
    A condition with a spirit that can think chose and feel, isn't a condition anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    An Undead made from the corpse of an orc or a goblin is the same problem than an undead made from the corpse of an elf, human or dwarf.
    Nobody said undead should be treated differently based on that. Why bring it up?

    Edited because I forgot:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo360 View Post
    Uh, no. The vampires are there to enact Hel's plan. Unless you suddenly want to talk about this from a story perspective rather than an in-universe perspective. Because you can certainly do both, but you can't switch back and forth based on what's convenient for your current point.
    I don't "suddenly want to talk about this from a story perspective rather than an in-universe perspective". woweed asked what the issue was with having sapient-seeming non-sapient antagonist. The problem with that are story based. And the in-unvierse evidence points to that not being the case in OOTS anyway. So yes Kish's assesment of the vampires being this books vilains is both correct and relevant to the discussion, as is my pointing out that Hel's role in the story is to enable them.

    Also I must admit I'm really curious to see how durkon plans to deal with the Exarch, especially in light of both vampires discussing theirr relationship with their hosts here.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-01-13 at 08:23 AM.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Mage avatar by smutmulch.

    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •