MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's one thing to make a case for your pick, it's another to fudge evidence about other choices to try and make your own seem better.

It's also completely unproductive. What is the end case scenario here? That, despite having been hashed out a hundred times already, they are going to convince the thread that the protean doesn't belong in the FBS list? OK, lets assume that happens. That still won't make the Ha-Naga somehow fit.

No, this is transparently part of the whole "the thread is biased against my idea" paranoia that we've seen before, including the "I shall pick on a different creature that has nothing to do with my argument" phase that usually comes after the "insult the curator" phase.

Alternatively, they could be honest and propose removing the size limit and the strength limit and (as far as I can figure out from the bits you quoted) add a "must have wish" requirement to the FBS. And if they get two people in favour of voting, we can all vote on it.

Grey Wolf

[BasiliskSoldier]

I don't know, from all the way back here I see a lot of "just plain doesn't fit" for the Protean and "just doesn't fit assumptions" for the Ha-naga.

People have already elaborated about why the Prothean's problems aren't as bad as you say they are. The big issue with the Protean is the two eyes thing, which yes, would be a huge cheat. But people think it might happen anyways, not just because the Protean can fit all the scenes, but because the Protean has a clear potential narrative purpose, reflecting MiTD's character arc (namely learning that he can choose who he wants to be) by making a core aspect of it a literal part of his biology.

How does the MiTD being a Ha-Naga fit the narrative? Why would Rich choose to make the MiTD that specific monster?

[Crusher]

People have already elaborated about why the Prothean's problems aren't as bad as you say they are. The big issue with the Protean is the two eyes thing, which yes, would be a huge cheat. But people think it might happen anyways, not just because the Protean can fit all the scenes, but because the Protean has a clear potential narrative purpose, reflecting MiTD's character arc (namely learning that he can choose who he wants to be) by making a core aspect of it a literal part of his biology.

I think it was Ruck who made the argument (I'm simplifying) that the MitD being essentially bad at everything makes sense if you assume he's a Protean who is using his action every single round to hold his current shape. It explains the eyes as well as a variety of other things.

[Ruck]

I think it was Ruck who made the argument (I'm simplifying) that the MitD being essentially bad at everything makes sense if you assume he's a Protean who is using his action every single round to hold his current shape. It explains the eyes as well as a variety of other things.

Yeah, I thought of it from panel 3 of #701. I've been over the details before, but continually holding shape explains that difficulty and also has some plausible in-character reasons we've discussed before (wanted to fit in, took the orders to stay hidden a little too literally), and I don't think anything in the strip contradicts it.

[Peelee]

the Protean has a clear potential narrative purpose, reflecting MiTD's character arc (namely learning that he can choose who he wants to be)

New theory: MitD is the Iron Giant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

<stuff I agree with>

By the way, BasiliskSoldier, I think you are aware of this, but just in case: while I agree with you that these considerations were probably at the forefront of Rich's mind when he picked MitD's species, they are too subjective to incorporate into the classification scheme, which is why ultimately, I suspect you, like I, pick our preferred creatures on the basis of it, but it does not get reflected in the OP. Not that you have complained about it, but, you know, just in case. If nothing else, I've made enough enemies in this forum this week, so I want to assure you (and me) you ain't one of them.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

I thought I had an official guess, but apparently I don't. Please put my guess down for the Athasian Nightmare Beast. Thank you!

Btw, this has been noted.

Edit -

Its been six months with a smattering of changes so it felt like time for an update. This feeling turned out to be wrong as essentially nothing has changed since then. The Protean remains the very strong leader and the ANB remains second over the Slaad. The ANB's hold on 2nd had been a little tenuous, but it's support has firmed up lately and its now solidly in 2nd. The Slaad (I grouped votes for White, Black, and any kind of transmutation between forms) may have lost a little ground on the ANB but its hold on 3rd remains firm.

Pretty much everything below third remained reasonably static, at least in the sense that I don't really keep track of whether Aboleth or Enveloper is currently in 8th or whatever. Worth noting is that, as with last time, if I took all of the generic "dragon" suggestions (prismatic dragon, half-dragon, Linnorm, etc) and added them together they'd have a score of 3.0 and be narrowly in 4th. Similarly, all the generic "deity" suggestions (Hephestus, Zeus, etc) combined also have a score of 3.0 so they'd be tied for 4th. Perhaps surprisingly, all the generic "Snarl" suggestions only have a combined score of 1.5. I hadn't looked at its total in a long time, but given how that's kind of a running joke, I'd have thought it'd be higher.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 19.5
#2 - ANB - 9.8
#3 - Slaad - 7.9
#4 - Glabrezu - 2.8
#5 - Zodar - 2.6

[Son of A Lich!]

I just checked, I don't have a guess in either.

I'd like to be marked for Protean. Thank you!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps surprisingly, all the generic "Snarl" suggestions only have a combined score of 1.5. I hadn't looked at its total in a long time, but given how that's kind of a running joke, I'd have thought it'd be higher.

Sort of the like the other running joke, the Tarrasque, I suspect it is old enough that anyone who was gunning for them have drifted away from the forums.

Honestly, what surprises me is that the Zodar isn't higher up. It's never been much discussed, but for a while, some of the competing forums for OotS were absolutely in its favour, and I would've guessed there would be a far higher overlap.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

To me, this seems to be a mark against the Protean, unless we assume MitD is holding his form into something with a waist. I suppose it's possible, but to me that's another hoop to jump through to make Protean fit, and by now I've made my feelings on hoop-jumping clear.

Not sure waist-having is actually required, to use a Belt of Many Pockets. Does it work when not worn (body shape becomes irrelevant)? Does it resize to fit the wearer (some items do, some don't) in which case all that's necessary is a physical form around which to wrap it?

[Peelee]

Not sure waist-having is actually required, to use a Belt of Many Pockets. Does it work when not worn (body shape becomes irrelevant)? Does it resize to fit the wearer (some items do, some don't) in which case all that's necessary is a physical form around which to wrap it?

I refuse to believe in a D&D world where magic belts prevent being pantsed, when not specifically magically warded against being pantsed.

[Qwertystop]

I refuse to believe in a D&D world where magic belts prevent being pantsed, when not specifically magically warded against being pantsed.

I'm not sure "a belt that always fits" would do that any better than a regular belt.

[Crusher]

I just checked, I don't have a guess in either.

I'd like to be marked for Protean. Thank you!

It shall be so marked!

[Darth Paul]

As long as I've been thinking about the bucket scene in SoD all day:

Is there any good reason why a Protean couldn't just extrude a tentacle of some kind and grab the bucket through the window of his cage? Or shapeshift into something with a tentacle?

Possibly this would be lampshaded because of the youth and inexperience of MitD, not realizing he has the ability to take the form/ability of something with a tentacle?

Also, on the off chance that nobody has cited this, I just realized the significance of this phrase in the Alter Shape ability description as related to MitD:

A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. <snip> The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension

So the size class of the Protean is really not an issue so long as MitD is using his move action to maintain the size his "friends" want him to be in order to stay in the box/cage/under his umbrella.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there any good reason why a Protean couldn't just extrude a tentacle of some kind and grab the bucket through the window of his cage? Or shapeshift into something with a tentacle?

THe usual explanation is the same it is for every creature strong enough to be in consideration: he was told he wasn't to leave the box. There is 0 reasons he couldn't have kicked the door open, walked around, grabbed the bucket and walked back in, but he didn't. What stops him is that he wants to obey his "friends". Therefore, to someone with a childish logic, putting out an arm of any description would still be leaving the cage.

Mage hand or telekinesis, on the other hand, have no such explanation. Neither involve MitD leaving the cage.

Also, on the off chance that nobody has cited this, I just realized the significance of this phrase in the Alter Shape ability description as related to MitD:

So the size class of the Protean is really not an issue so long as MitD is using his move action to maintain the size his "friends" want him to be in order to stay in the box/cage/under his umbrella.

Issue: he was already that size (as far as we can tell) before he got captured, since he fit in the cage. Besides, the protean's "rest" size, for lack of a better name, is Large; so even if he is not trying to change shapes, he is already the right size. If we assume he is smaller than he should be, that means MitD specifically is Normal size, which is quite literally perfect. Yes, as a protean, he could become smaller or larger, but that's the thing: MitD doesn't need to, unlike with the whole "having a face" business.

Grey Wolf

[BasiliskSoldier]

By the way, BasiliskSoldier, I think you are aware of this, but just in case: while I agree with you that these considerations were probably at the forefront of Rich's mind when he picked MitD's species, they are too subjective to incorporate into the classification scheme, which is why ultimately, I suspect you, like I, pick our preferred creatures on the basis of it, but it does not get reflected in the OP. Not that you have complained about it, but, you know, just in case. If nothing else, I've made enough enemies in this forum this week, so I want to assure you (and me) you ain't one of them.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, I completely agree. Putting Subjective analysis into the classification scheme would be an awful idea, this thread's already prone to argument when it's limited to stats/abilities.

But with these debates, that sort of subjective analysis is the most convincing argument, in my mind. I'm divided right now between the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Protean, and my main issue with the ANB is that I don't see that same sort of weight to the choice as the Protean would have.

[The Aboleth]

But with these debates, that sort of subjective analysis is the most convincing argument, in my mind. I'm divided right now between the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Protean, and my main issue with the ANB is that I don't see that same sort of weight to the choice as the Protean would have.

I'll admit that a big reason I picked the ANB was because the artwork "felt right" for the MitD, at least to me. It's completely subjective, but something about it screamed "MitD!" to me, and that's what ultimately tipped the balance in my mind between Protean and ANB.

So basically, I agree that subjectivity can be a big factor.

[Darth Paul]

stuff I hadn't considered

And that's why you're the curator here, and I'm an interested participant...

[Peelee]

And that's why you're the curator here

Well, for now. [innocuous whistling]

[Jasdoif]

Well, for now. [innocuous whistling]

Are you sure that's a good idea?

[Peelee]

Are you sure that's a good idea?

Of course! The mistake in that webcomic was the lack of lackeys. I would not lack lackeys. I wouldn't even call them lackeys. Haveys, they'd be. Maybe even lotseys!

[3Power]

Spoiler:

Show

"Do you like my new Belt of Many Pockets?"
"Aha! So you're a monster with a waist! ...That really doesn't narrow it down as much as I was hoping."

This probably doesn't need to be spoiled but:

Spoiler

Show

I would say a snake is almost 80% "waist," personally. I will fully admit that belts are not one of the magic items that are specifically mentioned as being commonly used by naga in Serpent Kingdoms. They specifically mention Eye, Face, and Neck magic items. But I see no reason why a Naga couldn't wear a belt. (Indeed, there's nothing forbidding it. It's mentioned that they can wear custom made armor for their bodies, but most don't like it due to how it limits mobility.) There's also precedent for other abberations such as the aboleth and the beholder mage wearing magic items on their unusual body types.

Next bit is big so I'm sticking it in a spoiler.

Spoiler: Darth Paul

Show

It's also not necessarily a "disgusting" reaction. Someone looking at a kaleidoscope display projected on a wall might be so disoriented that they're nauseated. Again, this is something we're just going to disagree on, but to me, "snake with human head" doesn't lead to "audience member throws up". But it could be something extremely horrifying, which I guess could be a Ha-Naga if that's what horrifies you, but it is likely to be something so unusual and mind-bending that one particular person just couldn't cope with the sight of it.

I just think human faces on animals is enough for that, in the right context.

Also, I took another look at the scene and noted that the ringmaster specifically says, for what its worth, "Look on in awe and terror." Also Right eye says that everyone "recoils in abject horror at the sight of you." These are not descriptions that seem to be specifically homing in on "Vomit Inducingly Disgusting" by default.

On another note, it's funny you should mention the kaleidoscope thing though. The Ha-naga has a chameleon-like ability to blend in with the background. There's also some evidence that the "Iridescent Naga" started out as a Ha-naga. It's listed as a Ha-naga on the Gallery page for serpent kingdoms and the setting of the artwork is very similar to the one for the Epic Handbook version. It could be that the artist made it very colorful to match the camouflage ability and they decided to make it its own creature.

Also, in Start of Darkness, a crucial bit is when MitD wanted to reach his stew bucket, just a foot or so outside his box. Presumably a creature with a tail that he used to lift things could just extend it through the window and hook the bucket without needing to tip the entire box?

Perhaps the angles required for such a feat would have resulted in the MitD not being able to clearly see what he was grabbing.

There are literally hundreds of pages devoted to how the Escape scene might not need a Wish in order to work;

Which is scary, because it's very obviously wish and your single greatest tool for narrowing it down.

Teleport being the most popular. There is at least one monster that has Teleport as an extraordinary ability that a Protean could mimic and use this ability. Example: the Umbral Blot has planar travel as a set of extraordinary abilities, includes Greater Teleport. No Wish is no problem.

Teleport does not fit. You already know why. Also, the protean having access to teleport requires it to borrow it from a completely different creature. So templates are bad, arrays are bad, but abilities borrowed from a completely different creature are fine? I think you know that's needlessly complicated.

We've discussed character reasons why MitD might stay in a single form, due to his childlike desire to fit in with those around him. Regardless of the fluff.

So when he's onstage where everyone can see him he's a shifting mass of tentacles and facial features, but when he's constantly shrouded in darkness where no-one can see him he's concerned about his looks? Also, this is a guessing game to find the right monster. The correct answer is a constantly shape-shifting blob of flesh, but there's no evidence he's changing his form at all?

I don't know for sure where you're getting the thing about proteans speaking all languages: from section 3a, they "Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.

Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it. They can speak and understand the language of any other creature.

Also, the explanation for his arcane knowledge is that proteans have psionic abilities and can detect thoughts, so he could pick up others thinking about the arcane half of the ritual and so on.

I suppose its possible, but it requires it to only be on when its convenient to the plot.

You are accusing others of arguing in bad faith, yet you're ignoring already established information; in fact you're saying the exact opposite of what's established.

You seem to be under the impression that because you've been discussing this for a very long time, the conclusions you've reached during that time are automatically correct. The truth will not depend on your consensus.

The guidelines that you call arbitrary are guidelines that exist because if they didn't, every monster in the Monster Manual would fit the big scenes somehow.

Kind of like how every monster with a teleportation ability fits the escape scene.

They're not "assumptions", they're deductions, which is something completely different. We may use the words interchangeably, but nobody picked the stat "Strength 30" out of the air; it was figured out as what works in D&D terms to fit the tower scene

I've long since belabored this point but there are no D&D rules for knocking people back in D&D beyond a bull rush. Whatever rules apply to those scenes are houserules, which fits with Rich "barely referencing the D&D rules anymore." "But why can't we ignore the teleport rules too!?" you ask. Because we've seen how they work in OOTS world, and they don't match the escape scene. Deductions are conclusions reached based on evidence, and if you're ignoring evidence to make a deduction, it's not a deduction.

And Redcloak, based on all the things shown about his character, should know if MitD has cleric spell abilities; his speech indicates that the Monster does not. It's reliable. That's why we tend to downgrade creatures with cleric spells.

You are using an assumption to declare a fact. Again, all we know for sure is that Redcloak knows what the MitD and that he is powerful. Any declaration beyond that, whether it be that he MUST know or definitely doesn't know about the MitD, is an assumption, not a deduction. Now, if you want to say that Redcloak MAY know the MitD's abilities in their entirety, that is a perfectly valid deduction, and you can use it to prop up your own theories. But you can't use it to rule out others.

And while the H-N might not be bizarre-looking enough to some, that's a value judgement. What it definitely is, is too big while still not strong enough, especially if it's a juvenile size, which (by the SRD) reduces its strength further because the size class is reduced. Adding templates or arrays to give strength back still results in a creature that isn't strong enough. At the very best, it's borderline.

As stated before, there are no actual rules for shrinking a monster. There's a reduce person/animal precedent and a size increase precedent, but neither rules were designed for making monsters multiple size categories smaller. If you try you end up in a situation where a large Ha-naga has a STR penalty and a Colossal Spirit Naga is stronger than the ha-naga was. And these kind of obscure rules just don't seem like the kind of thing Rich would be inclined to make a big deal about when all he wants is the monster to be smaller so that it can leave the dungeon.

Whereas the Protean has exactly these cons: "Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)." That's minor compared to all the things that can be explained.

You're missing the language and earthquake thing though.

I was thinking of spellcasting. I think it's not likely that the MitD isn't a high level arcane spellcaster, because if he was, then Redcloak could use him for the gate ritual, and he wouldn't protect Xykon so much. At the very least, it would come up in an argument with his brother at some point. For the same reason, it doesn't seem likely that the MitD can act as a mortal host for Ganonron to cast spells either, despite that I had kept wondering if that's possible. This only works for spellcasters who can learn spells though, like wizards and sorcerers, it doesn't exclude monsters who can cast arcane spells as a racial ability.

Well, he did specifically recruit the MiTD when Xykon was MIA, so it's possible, but I'd say the fact that he's not making use of a wish-capable being to help cast the spell is a point against Recloak knowing about any spellcasting. (Whereas you all will probably claim its a point against him having any spellcasting period)

I believe it is a stretch to look at that Redcloak scene and conclude, "There is no evidence that Redcloak knows MitD has access to spellcasting." He outright states in SoD that he knows exactly what MitD is, he outright states in the O-Chul interrogation scene that he pours over splatbooks for info, and he snidely (but no less outright) states before the invasion of Azure City that MitD cannot cast the required cleric spells to help with the raising of zombies. This is all in-comic stuff that anyone can see, without jumping through any "what-if" hoops. If you look at all that evidence and still conclude that Redcloak doesn't know MitD's true capabilities, fine, but don't expect the rest of us to buy into that theory.

The three scenes you mentioned provide support to your deduction, but they don't prove it. If it's not proven, it cannot be used to disprove other theories. There are several explanations for what Redcloak said, none of which are contradicted by the evidence in the comic. That scene can not be used to disqualify creatures with spellcasting.

And you do understand that if MitD being able to cast spells is out, Wish is also out because it can replicate most of them, yes? The single best explanation for the escape scene discarded simply because the ideas of A. Redcloak doesn't know everything, and B. MitD doesn't know how to perfectly control his spellcasting, are just too unbelievable.

Access to telekinesis makes the "can't reach the bucket" scene in SoD completely problematic, however. You actually just made an argument against the Ha-Naga as fitting the scene.

Only if he was able to cast it at that point.

How does the MiTD being a Ha-Naga fit the narrative? Why would Rich choose to make the MiTD that specific monster?

I don't think it needs to be a specific monster. I think "Monster" is the important part of its identity. I don't think it literally needs to be able to physically change at will in order to be a "Good Man." I think rejecting its default alignment is enough for that. And Ha-naga are "Usually Chaotic Evil."

Mage hand or telekinesis, on the other hand, have no such explanation. Neither involve MitD leaving the cage.

Mage Hand is unlikely to be able to lift a full bucket of stew, however.

I'll admit that a big reason I picked the ANB was because the artwork "felt right" for the MitD, at least to me. It's completely subjective, but something about it screamed "MitD!" to me, and that's what ultimately tipped the balance in my mind between Protean and ANB.

On that note... What artwork exists for the Athasian Nightmare Beast, exactly? Because from what I can puzzle out from this is that the monster was posted on the forums a year after the 100th strip cutoff as a preview for an upcoming 3rd party Dark Sun supplement, but the actual product doesn't contain the monster and instead refers back to the Nightmare Beast from Monster Manual 2.

Strip 100 came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.

Am I understanding this right? A monster posted on the wizard forums in 2005 that only appeared there "Fits the Big Scenes?"

[Peelee]

On that note... What artwork exists for the Athasian Nightmare Beast, exactly? Because from what I can puzzle out from this is that the monster was posted on the forums a year after the 100th strip cutoff as a preview for an upcoming 3rd party Dark Sun supplement, but the actual product doesn't contain the monster and instead refers back to the Nightmare Beast from Monster Manual 2.


Am I understanding this right? A monster posted on the wizard forums in 2005 that only appeared there "Fits the Big Scenes?"

Artwork is on page 162 of the 3.0 Monster Manual 2, published September 1, 2002. I also assume that monster is the proposed FBS monster, with the name "Athasian" added in for historical sake. GW, please correct me if I'm wrong there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Artwork is on page 162 of the 3.0 Monster Manual 2, published September 1, 2002. I also assume that monster is the proposed FBS monster, with the name "Athasian" added in for historical sake. GW, please correct me if I'm wrong there.

No, the proposed one is the Athasian variant, a 2e version whose 3e version was in development as per the quoted post around the time Rich was thinking about MitD, and thus, so the logic goes, might have asked around his friends at WotC Monster development employees for ideas.

That the timeline is tight should surprise no-one, since it is prominently listed in the cons section of its FBS deadline.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

No, the proposed one is the Athasian variant, a 2e version whose 3e version was in development as per the quoted post around the time Rich was thinking about MitD, and thus, so the logic goes, might have asked around his friends at WotC Monster development employees for ideas.

That the timeline is tight should surprise no-one, since it is prominently listed in the cons section of its FBS deadline.

Grey Wolf

You mean a 3.5e version? Or was this a proposed version for 3e that the official 3e version overrode? Sorry, that's a little confusing for me.

[Jasdoif]

You mean a 3.5e version? Or was this a proposed version for 3e that the official 3e version overrode? Sorry, that's a little confusing for me.

As mentioned in the quoted portion of the linked post, this Nightmare Beast was supposed to be closer to the Dark Sun 2e version than the one that appeared in the 3.0 Monster Manual 2. It has DR/magic rather than DR/+1, so I'm pretty sure it's a 3.5 version itself. (MM2 is covered by the 3.5 update booklet, so that would constitute an official 3.5 version.)

[Peelee]

As mentioned in the quoted portion of the linked post, this Nightmare Beast was supposed to be closer to the Dark Sun 2e version than the one that appeared in the 3.0 Monster Manual 2. It has DR/magic rather than DR/+1, so I'm pretty sure it's a 3.5 version itself. (MM2 is covered by the 3.5 update booklet, so that would constitute an official 3.5 version.)

I blame all the confusion on that 3.X is a thing.

[3Power]

As mentioned in the quoted portion of the linked post, this Nightmare Beast was supposed to be closer to the Dark Sun 2e version than the one that appeared in the 3.0 Monster Manual 2. It has DR/magic rather than DR/+1, so I'm pretty sure it's a 3.5 version itself. (MM2 is covered by the 3.5 update booklet, so that would constitute an official 3.5 version.)

Wait, DR/Magic? So when Miko and Belkar attacked it they were wielding mundane weapons?

No, the proposed one is the Athasian variant, a 2e version whose 3e version was in development as per the quoted post around the time Rich was thinking about MitD, and thus, so the logic goes, might have asked around his friends at WotC Monster development employees for ideas.

That the timeline is tight should surprise no-one, since it is prominently listed in the cons section of its FBS deadline.

Grey Wolf

Who exactly posted this, because the Dark Sun stuff seems to all be 3rd party.

Also I wouldn't call 9 months a "few."

[Reslain]

http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/mons.../nigmarbe.html

the link contains a picture of the nightmare beast and it's 2nd edition stats, though i think it would also have some problems carrying around people and things with the illustration provided here.

Out of curiosity is there anything the 3.X version can do that the 2nd ed can't? it appears to have lost some comparative AC (it's -5 ac in 2nd being slightly more impressive than it's 22 AC in 3.x).

Also it appears to have lost some minor abilities that honestly aren't very important for qualifying for any of the big scenes (immunity to it's own spells, and the ability to take half damage from spells from level 4 or lower creatures).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of course! The mistake in that webcomic was the lack of lackeys. I would not lack lackeys. I wouldn't even call them lackeys. Haveys, they'd be. Maybe even lotseys!

I’m tempted to find the space for “Peelee’s lotsey” somewhere in my signature.

Re: The Zodar not being higher up: Personally, while I like the Zodar as a suggestion it’s my problematic fav of my picks because of the issues it has with the Circus scene. I mean, there’s a reason it’s not on the FBS list.