MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[lio45]

I'm also going to reserve some choice real estate on Page 1 for myself, for future use. Or maybe for resale, if it goes up in value enough.


Edit - dammit!!! Just missed the boat.

[lio45]

Given the frequency it shows up as a question, I think it might be worthwhile to put it in the OP somewhere...

Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.

Last thread (XI), someday, on my phone, I clicked on (what I thought was) "last page" and instead, I just jumped forward a few pages. I found myself reading an argument from about six months ago (summer of 2018) between a random guy who, essentially, insisted that it was pretty clear MitD had to be "recognizable", and GW who kinda wanted to shut him up.

Clearly, if this very point comes up that regularly... then why not address it in the OP once and for all? Isn't that exactly what the OP is for...? What's the harm in adding a little section* and/or maybe slightly reworking a couple others? Worst case, if you guys want to keep everything else as is, just adding a tiny section* would avoid this argument popping up every once in a while.


* I said "adding", but in fact simply expanding/editing Section 1i a bit would do. More specifically, this part:

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous...

...has GOT to pre-date Rich's quote about how many people have expressed doubts an answer could exist to the question "what is MitD" that would be worth the wait, and Rich has reassured them that there's an answer that does. This quote does not guarantee that MitD is famous, but it clearly at the very least suggests it. (I'm ready to defend that anytime; won't elaborate here for the time being, in case we're somehow all in agreement.)



On a semi-related note, copyright issue aside, anyone recalls whether this community found any major problem with Snorlax as a fit?

[Darth Paul]

Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.

It's funny you should mention that...

Why does section 1i of the FAQ not- in your opinion- cover the existence and nature of the "recognition debate", and sum up the three main positions? If not, what needs to be added? And I'm curious why you think that specific comment implies that the Monster is some type of "celebrity" creature?

I take it that the reveal will be satisfying in the context of "Those of you who have spent 11 going on 12 threads now trying to analyze what the Monster is, will not be disappointed when you find out. You will be slapping your foreheads and saying 'Of course! That explains everything!'"

[Ruck]

Huh, your post got me to reading 1h and 1i, which I guess maybe I never had closely.

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.

Does the Protean not fit this description-- or, at least, the partial-shifting aspects of it fit well enough for what is generally being described here?

[Darth Paul]

Does the Protean not fit this description-- or, at least, the partial-shifting aspects of it fit well enough for what is generally being described here?

Intriguing. (And I don't much like the Protean as a candidate... yet, intriguing...)

I guess it depends on how perfect a mimic we assume the Protean is. That is, how much like an elk, for example, does it look when it mimics an elk? Is it identical to an elk, or is it elk-shaped, but still boiling around the edges? Would you know (if you knew about proteans in the first place) that it was a protean in the shape of an elk? Or would you say, "Huh. An elk," and then be frightened out of your skivvies when it changed shape and became an umber hulk?

When I picture one, I think of a gibbering mouther, but fewer mouths and more eyes. The illustration I found when googling is just plain hideous.

[b_jonas]

I guess it depends on how perfect a mimic we assume the Protean is. That is, how much like an elk, for example, does it look when it mimics an elk? Is it identical to an elk, or is it elk-shaped, but still boiling around the edges? Would you know (if you knew about proteans in the first place) that it was a protean in the shape of an elk? Or would you say, "Huh. An elk," and then be frightened out of your skivvies when it changed shape and became an umber hulk?

IIRC back when this thread talked about things relevant to the MitD, GW insisted that the Protean doesn't take the shape of a single creature like an Elk, it always looks like a mish-mash of different creatures and possibly unidentifiable parts. It can hold one shape that it has taken, but it can't choose a shape.

Other shapechangers may differ. We've seen in OotS that illusions and Sabine's shapechange can be pretty convincing, but also that Vaarsuvius took the form of a pink dragon, and I'm not even sure if real pink dragons exist. When you first asked about an elk, I naturally thought of Game-Trail Changeling, as it is shown on the M:tG card. It is imitating some sort of deer, and in the card it's illustrated as green translucent and more shiny than a real deer, but its shape looks pretty much like a real deer. That said, the illustration may be using unrealistic conventions to make it clear to the players that it's a shapeshifter. OotS have been using such conventions with illusions already, when the viewpoint characters are ones who know about the illusion.

[NobleCuriosity]

I’d like to guess Protean (first) > ANB.

Edit: My reasoning: Like many people, I think that Protean is the best fit to MitD's abilities. The main knocks against it that I’ve seen are that 1) the constant shapeshifting should change the mouth and eye position/type and 2) The Escape requires a lot of things to go just right: MitD has to have been hit by the stray Dimensional Anchor, the comic not requiring teleport casters to touch their passengers has to be a canon difference and not just artistic license for panel composition, a really lucky roll has to deliver O-Chul and V to the right location, and MitD must have shifted into the exact right creature (and one that needed to be converted via a means that we’re not sure has been used). Then he must not be able to figure out how to do it again with the roaches or hobgoblin later.

I don’t think 1) is a serious objection. Having the eyes and/or voice being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention, AND we can’t see them in detail because of the shadow, AND most eyes/mouths look pretty similar in Rich’s original art style, AND Rich probably cares more about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently than about giving a clue that would likely be too big of a hint before the time comes that could be explained away in other means (and also a bunch of stuff that is listed on this page of this thread a bit below). 2) Is a more serious concern, but I think that the fact that the Ootsverse literally ignores probability if the results would be significantly dramatic (and what happens was vastly more dramatic than Xykon simply succeeding) explains the teleport roll functioning, the MitD only pulling it off at the absolute last possible second, and possibly the not being able to repeat it at all later (which is also explained by the somewhat but not completely uncontrollable shapeshifting); also, as noted a bit later in this thread, the Protean's Detect Thoughts power could have let it get the knowledge of the beachfront ally location from V's mind. Everything else there we do have an explanation for, and now that we’ve had a psionic character (Lauren) as a nontrivial plot point and not just 1-shot jokes, the psionic conversion seems much more plausible.

And the Protean explains the circus scene SO much better than anything else. It explains how MitD could just stand there doing nothing and still utterly amaze everyone, how sight of him could be both disgusting to the point of nausea (after they’ve seen it, not before, in my mind making scent or auras a less likely explanation) yet eerily beautiful to some, and how MitD is incredibly and uniquely unrecognizable (note that the wizard doesn't just say "I don't know what it is", he says the much stronger "I've never seen anything like it." A "not that weird for monsters" body like the Glabrezu's 4 armed spiky humanoid form or the Uvuudaum's "6 legs on a torso plus a head" doesn't explain that comment as well as the Protean's constant shapechanging does, which presumably gives a much more unique look).

The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.” Recall how Redcloak is so quick to take him on to Team Evil (in spite of Redcloak’s preference for Evil teammates and less important preference for Lawfulness), the whole talk with O-Chul about how MitD is a “good man,” and in particular that O-Chul thinks MitD wouldn’t believe him if he told MitD what he was. All that plus the constant jokes about how his personality makes him a lot less scary than he "should" be, and having to stay in the darkness which smells suspiciously of double meanings about fear of the unknown and lack of understanding of other cultures and stereotypes about dangerous monsters blah blah blah in addition to being a joke. I can’t help but feel like MitD is intended (among other things) to be a big part of Rich’s critique of the alignment system and what it means to be a monster, with MitD’s species and looks in his big reveal coming in sharp and shocking contrast to what we, with our additional information, know about his personality and choices. Him having a species alignment listed as “always chaotic neutral” that he is actually fairly close to (though maybe good) just doesn’t seem to say much. MitD’s identity has been hidden to serve an eventual surprise for over a decade now. What about MitD being revealed to be a Protean is emotionally charged? Why is that a secret worth keeping for so very long, for a reveal which is most certainly not just going to be a joke (as I recall Rich mentioned it as a dramatic moment he was very much looking forward to)? The best I can come up with is that the shapeshifting is a literal symbol for how people-any kind, no matter how seemingly monstrous-can change, that appearance doesn’t always reflect reality, and that thus we shouldn’t have games that encourage the assumption that everything that looks sufficiently different or “monstrous” needs to be killed. But you know what fits that better, which makes it that much more of a genuine shock for the readerbase? A species whose alignment is listed as “Always Evil”—with a fiendish race in particular stunning us by breaking the last assumption about “always evil” creatures that Rich has allowed to hold in his comic (though it’s possible he genuinely wants to allow that one.), a fittingly climactic moment worthy of a decade of buildup that will spark a lot of discussion.

Note that overall I still think the shapeshifting symbolism thing is likely enough, and that MitD is a Protean. But this does give me some pause and doubt.

I would say the ANB is also a good fit to MitD’s abilities (though not as good at explaining the circus scene), and it’s always-chaotic-evil species alignment fits with my doubts. But having to have had an advanced copy sent to Rich is a pretty big ding.

The doubts and the escape scene almost make me want to pick the Glabrezu or Uvuudaum in 3rd. But for the Glabrezu, CR 13 just seems too low to be worth Xykon’s or Redcloak’s time, or to be a credible threat to the Oots; and for the Uvuudaum, literally not having eyes or a mouth at all is just a bit too much for me to buy Rich saying "nothing before then contradicts it."

[Mightymosy]

Been doing a lot of thinking today about the uvuudaum.

It fits most of the big scenes very very well. As far as the objections, they are well founded, but: Rich is known to bend flavor text and even rules to fit the story better, as well as making them fit better with common sense (the way I look at it).

1) No mouth or eyes: Everything eats. Somewhere, somehow, there's a mouth on that thing. As for the eyes; a little trickier, since we know many species don't have them in real life, therefore a fantasy species might easily be without. But since MitD came a little before Rich decided what he was, the eyes were an established feature and it would be impossible to take those eyes away without fundamentally changing MitD's character.

2) His confusion aura could be weak, being a juvenile of the species; enough to cause some audience members at the circus to feel sick, but not affect those with class levels (successful Will save) or those who had longer exposure to him. This would be another instance of the RAW being somewhat bent in service of the story.

Strong objections, but I feel this is a better candidate than my original guess of Slaad, especially since it was pointed out that Slaadi speak common and it's no surprise that MitD would be speaking. Still not as good as the ANB, but a strong candidate that I hadn't considered as much as it deserved.

Crusher, when you get to updating the list of guesses, please revise mine to ANB > Uvuudaum. (Both would be juvenile forms, to fit under the umbrella.) Drop the Slaad.

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....


ETA: Isn't there someone other than Rich knowing what MitD is? I remember some quote where he said that he had once told someone, but luckily that person didn't spoil the secret thus far.
Or do I misremember and that was about V's gender or some other mystery?

[b_jonas]

ETA: Isn't there someone other than Rich knowing what MitD is? I remember some quote where he said that he had once told someone, but luckily that person didn't spoil the secret thus far.
Or do I misremember and that was about V's gender or some other mystery?

That was about Vaarsuvius's gender. See https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=11094344.

[Mightymosy]

That was about Vaarsuvius's gender. See https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=11094344.

Thank you. Never mind then.

[Peelee]

Y'know, this is exactly why I've been pushing to include something about how many people feel that Rich's comments imply MitD is some sort of "celebrity" monster (i.e. not obscure). The goal of the OP is precisely to brief newcomers properly, so that they get up to speed as fast as possible and don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel in the thread.

Because I don't think you ever responded to this...

If you missed them, here are a bunch of proposed ideas that are "celebrities," as you put it, and not in the monster manuals.

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas

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These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

Deity

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First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

• If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks, which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
• They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
• Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
• Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.

Rich "The Giant" Burlew

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Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jr

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Probably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls, although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".

Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas

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All ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
Kirby(Kirby)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)

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A great fit, since:

• "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
• is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
• It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
• Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
• When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example).
• When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
• Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture)

Shadow (Babylon 5)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas

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These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

• Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts?
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  Must be a Rock
• The most dangerous box ever
• The fearsome Gazebo
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  HotAndCold explained:
  

  • A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
  • It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
  • Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
  • Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
  • It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
  • I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
  • The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
• A Fanboy
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  Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.
  
  We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
• Grey_Wolf_c
• The Giant
  Spoiler: No but really though.

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  No, not that Giant, this Giant Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.
  
  An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant.
  
  1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan. In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'
  
  2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995, he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
  Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.
  
  3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.
  
  4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.
  
  5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995
  
  6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.
  
  7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.
  
  8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.
  
  9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.
  
  10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.
  
  11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!
  
  12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
• Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
  
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  The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.
  
  Pros:
  

  • Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
  • 63 strength to explain tower scene.
  • Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
  • 36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
  • "Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
  • Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
  • Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
  • People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
  • 29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
  • Large size to fit in box.
  • Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
  • Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
  • Two eyes.
  • Not immune to mind affecting effects.

  
  
  Con:
  

  • Doesn't explain escape scene.

Note that most of the "celebrity" suggestions have the same issue: copyright. But that's three lists right there of mostly non-D&D suggestions that have been proposed in the past. By, I would imagine, many people.

What does your suggested change affect? "Celebrity" monsters have been suggested, and in droves. None have met the criteria. Saying "hey this thing that was never disallowed and has had a lot of people engaging in is allowed bytheway!" does, IMO, significantly less than you think it does.

[Darth Paul]

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....

I do not disagree with you in any regard whatsoever. That's why I rate the ANB higher than Uvuudaum as a possibility, and probably I should make it clear that it's a much higher rating in my book. But with the exception of the eyes; and that's a pretty huge exception, I agree with you; it's about as perfect a FBS candidate as we have seen so far. Tied with the ANB in that regard, and the tracks of a 6-legged critter would confuse Belkar even more (especially if that creature were dragging party supplies and a paralyzed O-Chul).

The lack of any eyes or mouth in any illustrations or flavor text (and the fact of its +50 Blindfighting skill is a heavy indication that the creators intend it to have no eyes, period) are big strikes against it, though.

A consistent form, even without eyes in the illustration, is still easier for me to swallow than a form that changes its shape, including eyes, randomly. That's why I dislike the Protean as an explanation, beyond the fact that it doesn't have inherent abilities to explain the Escape scene.

[Ruck]

A consistent form, even without eyes in the illustration, is still easier for me to swallow than a form that changes its shape, including eyes, randomly. That's why I dislike the Protean as an explanation, beyond the fact that it doesn't have inherent abilities to explain the Escape scene.

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:

My argument basically comes down to artistic license, looking at it from the other end. If we assume the MITD is a Protean, how would Rich draw him?

Given that

1)Rich started drawing the MITD before he knew what species he was;
2)Rich wants to keep the MITD's species a secret until the dramatic reveal near the end of the book;
3)Rich chose the MITD's species for storytelling purposes;

I think Rich would continue to draw the MITD consistently with the manner he had before, because changing the art would give away the game. I also think that he would not let that potential art inconsistency get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. (In other words, I think if he thought Protean was best for the story, he would not decide that he can't use it because the artwork had been inconsistent with how a Protean might be depicted.)

There's also the fact that none of the suggestions we've come up with are perfect fits, so you have to fudge something somewhere. I think this is the most minor fudge, and so with that in addition to why I think the Protean is best for storytelling purposes, it gets my vote. (Mechanically, I think the Athasian Nightmare Beast is the only one that comes close to the Protean for fit, but "wasn't actually released when Rich decided, but he knew about it in advance" is a significantly bigger fudge for me than "eyes shouldn't be consistently placed.")

EDIT: And if you really need a mechanical explanation, Peelee's isn't too bad, when you consider how strongly aware many characters in OOTS seem to be of the fourth wall. It's possible MITD makes a point to present in a two-eyed form when the "camera" is on him.

I don't think artistic license is as big a stretch as outright changing a monster's stats.

I'm repeating myself at this point, but: The thing to remember is that Rich started drawing the MitD before he knew what species it would be, but he still chose the creature that would best fit the story, not that would best fit the artwork to date. You've also got to remember that Rich is trying to keep the species secret until the time to reveal the MitD in the story has come; if he drew MitD's eyes in a fashion that obviously moved around like a Protean's might, well, that would defeat the purpose.

No, he didn't say that. I'm saying that if he decided the best monster for the story he wanted to tell was a Protean, he would make MitD a Protean regardless of the artwork (but I mean, the artwork is also literally "a pair of eyes in the dark"), and he wouldn't change the artwork in a way to give away the identity of the monster. I don't think Rich would plan out a story that's going to take him literally 20 years to write when it's all said and done, and decide he can't use the monster he wants to because "most people familiar with the Protean would expect the eyes to move around."

Have you looked at the list of FBS monsters? Every one of them has something you're going to have to overlook or rationalize in order to fit it in. I've given my reasons why I think both that the Protean requires the least amount of rationalizing and that the Protean best fits for the themes of the story. If I'm going to be convinced it's not a Protean, I'm going to need something that fits better than the Protean does. I haven't seen that.

One reason I think MITD can be a Protean despite the seeming permanence of his eyes and mouth: He's focused on keeping them the same (for whatever reason), and that's very tiring. And doing more than one thing at once seems very tricky and confusing for him (panel 3).

[Peelee]

Personally, I think that Rich would find it very important that the one feature that he as yet drawn (the eyes) need to match the eventual species of MitD. It is a visual medium, after all.
For me, that's also one of the biggest strikes against the Protean. I thought the Protean would otherwise be a good fit, but we don't see it MitD changings his eyes at all. So....

Assume, for the moment, that it is a Protean. Changing the number or positions of the eyes would the single biggest, most obvious giveaways there could be, outside of having the monster actually step out of the darkness. So it stands to reason that this would never happen, and expecting it would be ludicrous.

[Darth Paul]

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:

Assume, for the moment, that it is a Protean. Changing the number or positions of the eyes would the single biggest, most obvious giveaways there could be, outside of having the monster actually step out of the darkness. So it stands to reason that this would never happen, and expecting it would be ludicrous.

Very true. And yet, there's the Escape scene. I actually would like to add Protean to my list, instead of Uvuudaum. Having eyes, it fits better. My objection isn't really so much the shapeshifting issue as the Escape scene required powers. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Unless we grant that it was managed via a Plane Shift to the same plane, not impossible, but not the way it works in RAW, I don't see how a Protean manages it. Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers).

I would overlook the eyes as an art choice (to avoid a dead giveaway of MitD's identity) if there were a creature that had Teleport as an extraordinary, instead of a spell-like ability. But in my fishing through the MM glossary, all psionics are SLA, not Extraordinary. That seems, the way I read it, to rule out the Protean being able to acquire a psionic or magic Greater Teleport via a shapeshift.

Either way, whether by a bent Plane Shift or by bending the rule on acquiring a power during a shapeshift, that feels like something we couldn't guess. (Although I guess I just guessed it, didn't I...) And MitD would have to guess what shape to change into and gain the Teleport ability, then use it at the same time. Plane Shift feels more "right", as an ability he had all the time and discovered how to use, so that fits the comments Rich made in DStP. Yet both feel like a stretch.

I want to be wrong. Someone explain to me how wrong I am, please, and then I'll replace Uvuudaum on my list.

[Synesthesy]

Very true. And yet, there's the Escape scene. I actually would like to add Protean to my list, instead of Uvuudaum. Having eyes, it fits better. My objection isn't really so much the shapeshifting issue as the Escape scene required powers. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Unless we grant that it was managed via a Plane Shift to the same plane, not impossible, but not the way it works in RAW, I don't see how a Protean manages it. Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

I would overlook the eyes as an art choice (to avoid a dead giveaway of MitD's identity) if there were a creature that had Teleport as an extraordinary, instead of a spell-like ability. But in my fishing through the MM glossary, all psionics are SLA, not Extraordinary. That seems, the way I read it, to rule out the Protean being able to acquire a psionic or magic Greater Teleport via a shapeshift.

Either way, whether by a bent Plane Shift or by bending the rule on acquiring a power during a shapeshift, that feels like something we couldn't guess. (Although I guess I just guessed it, didn't I...) And MitD would have to guess what shape to change into and gain the Teleport ability, then use it at the same time. Plane Shift feels more "right", as an ability he had all the time and discovered how to use, so that fits the comments Rich made in DStP. Yet both feel like a stretch.

I want to be wrong. Someone explain to me how wrong I am, please, and then I'll replace Uvuudaum on my list.

To me, I would vote Protean IF AND ONLY IF there was a Wish ability he can copy. Wish is better then teleport or plane shift, Wish would be good enough for me to make for the wrong eyes in the drawing (yes, I don't buy the theory "the only thing about the Monster we see is wrong just not to spoil it).
Or if the Protean is Italian, of course

[Ruck]

I admittedly am not certain what power MitD used for the escape scene. (The Glabrezu's "wish 1/month" ability makes the most sense to me, but I have too many other objections there.) Reading the FBS post, Protean might have Psionic Teleport given that psionics are established in OOTS-world. And I'm not sure which other monsters it could conceivably partially-shift into that would give it an adequate explanation for Escape, but I am assuming at least one exists.

[Darth Paul]

To me, I would vote Protean IF AND ONLY IF there was a Wish ability he can copy. Wish is better then teleport or plane shift, Wish would be good enough for me to make for the wrong eyes in the drawing (yes, I don't buy the theory "the only thing about the Monster we see is wrong just not to spoil it).
Or if the Protean is Italian, of course

Wish would be the best choice, actually. I'm disappointed in myself for not mentioning it. The problem is, it's yet another SLA.
I've overcome the eye issue, now I have to jump the much higher hurdle of "acquires SLA via shapeshifting even though the RAW say he can't".
Protean sounds Latin, which is just a step away from Italian. Any help there?

I admittedly am not certain what power MitD used for the escape scene. (The Glabrezu's "wish 1/month" ability makes the most sense to me, but I have too many other objections there.) Reading the FBS post, Protean might have Psionic Teleport given that psionics are established in OOTS-world. And I'm not sure which other monsters it could conceivably partially-shift into that would give it an adequate explanation for Escape, but I am assuming at least one exists.

In my opinion a Psionic Protean violates Occam's Razor, versus possibly finding a creature with an inherent Wish ability. I have my doubts that we'll find one, though, that has Wish other than as a spell-like ability.

[Ruck]

Wish would be the best choice, actually. I'm disappointed in myself for not mentioning it. The problem is, it's yet another SLA.
I've overcome the eye issue, now I have to jump the much higher hurdle of "acquires SLA via shapeshifting even though the RAW say he can't".
Protean sounds Latin, which is just a step away from Italian. Any help there?

In my opinion a Psionic Protean violates Occam's Razor, versus possibly finding a creature with an inherent Wish ability. I have my doubts that we'll find one, though, that has Wish other than as a spell-like ability.

Maybe so. I don't know enough about the D&D rules to know how psionics work, but a Protean is a psionic creature and psionics exist in OOTS-world. So I don't know if that implies the Protean has a Psionic Teleport ability or can easily duplicate one, or what.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Even shifting to a form that has a Greater Teleport ability, the way I read the description of a Protean, should not grant it that ability, should it?

Like it says in the first post, Umbral Blot has an Extraordinary ability, Planar Travel, that allows at-will greater teleport.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

I misphrased that. A protean with added templates for more psionic powers is the stretch I had in mind.

Psionics (Sp)
At will —detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion. Caster level 20th, save DC 22.

These powers alone account for the majority of what we know about MitD. The only thing he can't do of his own nature is Wish that O-Chul Escape. A plane shift could account for it, if it were fudged to shift people on the same plane.
I think the ANB is a better candidate, based on its ability (also psionic FWIW) to teleport. That doesn't requires less fudging of the rules than a plane shift, and much less than acquiring a Wish ability through shape changing.

If we grant the ability to gain a Wish ability through shapeshifting, though, any creature that can perform Wish is fair game. Djinn is an obvious one. So, assume Protean-MitD partially shifted to a Djinn long enough to Wish that O-Chul and V could Escape. Problem solved.

Like it says in the first post, Umbral Blot has an Extraordinary ability, Planar Travel, that allows at-will greater teleport.

Grey Wolf

Bugger. I overlooked the Blot.

Okay, then Protean-MitD partially shifts into an Umbral Blot, then uses its Extraordinary Ability to Greater Teleport O-Chul and V. Still a huge coincidence that he picks that form and uses that ability for the very first time, but not inconceivable.

Good enough for me. Revise my guess to ANB > Protean.

[cheznet]

Sorry if someone else has already discussed this, but I noticed a minor detail that may or may not matter. During the escape in #661, MitD's eyes are glowing when he says escape. Contrast with another close-up of his eyes in #699, for example - during the escape scene, there's a little bit of yellow fuzz around the edges. That could just be a visual cue to show that he's using SOME sort of special ability, but given the developments in the comic lately, I was thinking this might actually be some sort of quiddity shenanigans. It obviously doesn't look exactly like the quiddities we're used to, but that could theoretically just be a product of the comic's changing artstyle - contrast #874, the last time we see Thor before the visual update (I think) with #998, the first time we see gods after the update (as far as I'm aware). Even though the gods are just being channeled in the latter example, it's consistent with the artstyle we see for the quiddities later on. Moreover, before the update, quiddities tended to closely mimic the shape of the god they were surrounding, just sort of as an expanded outline, which more or less matches the glowing of the MitD's eyes in the escape scene.

Now, I don't know enough about the monster manual to actually synthesize that information into a guess of any kind. To be honest, the more I looked into it, the less confident I became in the theory. It's probably much more likely that it was just visual shorthand for MitD's eyes glowing, and his eyes happen to be yellow. BUT if there are any specifically Norse creatures with divine ties that fit the bill, this might be a clue of some sort.

(Sorry if I missed this in the OP, less sorry if I missed it somewhere in the 16k+ posts in these threads. Also sorry for the lack of links, I'm too new to the forums post them.)

[Synesthesy]

Bugger. I overlooked the Blot.

Okay, then Protean-MitD partially shifts into an Umbral Blot, then uses its Extraordinary Ability to Greater Teleport O-Chul and V. Still a huge coincidence that he picks that form and uses that ability for the very first time, but not inconceivable.

The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.

[Peelee]

Sorry if someone else has already discussed this, but I noticed a minor detail that may or may not matter. During the escape in #661, MitD's eyes are glowing when he says escape. Contrast with another close-up of his eyes in #699, for example - during the escape scene, there's a little bit of yellow fuzz around the edges. That could just be a visual cue to show that he's using SOME sort of special ability, but given the developments in the comic lately, I was thinking this might actually be some sort of quiddity shenanigans. It obviously doesn't look exactly like the quiddities we're used to, but that could theoretically just be a product of the comic's changing artstyle - contrast #874, the last time we see Thor before the visual update (I think) with #998, the first time we see gods after the update (as far as I'm aware). Even though the gods are just being channeled in the latter example, it's consistent with the artstyle we see for the quiddities later on. Moreover, before the update, quiddities tended to closely mimic the shape of the god they were surrounding, just sort of as an expanded outline, which more or less matches the glowing of the MitD's eyes in the escape scene.

Now, I don't know enough about the monster manual to actually synthesize that information into a guess of any kind. To be honest, the more I looked into it, the less confident I became in the theory. It's probably much more likely that it was just visual shorthand for MitD's eyes glowing, and his eyes happen to be yellow. BUT if there are any specifically Norse creatures with divine ties that fit the bill, this might be a clue of some sort.

(Sorry if I missed this in the OP, less sorry if I missed it somewhere in the 16k+ posts in these threads. Also sorry for the lack of links, I'm too new to the forums post them.)

Don't worry about links, we all know the restrictions for new users. Unfortunately, deities have issues. Several, and pretty big ones at that.

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas[spoiler]
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

Deity

Spoiler

Show

First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

• If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks, which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
• They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
• Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
• Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.

[Quartz]

The fissure link in the Snorlax entry https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/64/Fissure.png no longer works.

[Ruck]

I misphrased that. A protean with added templates for more psionic powers is the stretch I had in mind.

I honestly don't know how many templates the Protean would need to fit-- the SRD link in the FBS post describes it as psionic. Can someone who knows more than I do elaborate?

I think the ANB is a better candidate, based on its ability (also psionic FWIW) to teleport. That doesn't requires less fudging of the rules than a plane shift, and much less than acquiring a Wish ability through shape changing.

The ANB has a lot going for it (including some fluff, if Oona's description of MitD being literally that of a nightmare matters). But the whole "not actually yet published" aspect is a bigger negative to me than the artistic license of the Protean.

The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.

As I understand it, one of the fudges used on the Greater Teleport explanation is that Vaarsuvius' stray Quickened Dimensional Anchor here actually hits MitD.

[Darth Paul]

The real problem about Greater Teleport is that 1) you need to know, even if not directly, where to teleport 2) the caster always teleport himself too, the teleport spell aren't "teleport others".

So we also need the Monster to know the place where V had just teleported the Azurites' Fleet, and that somehow the Monster stayed where he was (for example, that V casting Dimensional Anchor to Xykon and missing him, hit the Monster instead).

This rule bending, IMHO, should tell us that there is somewhere in a source book we don't know, a creature that is able to Wish (and alert, "escape" was imho directly the monster's wish, neither V's, who the mosnter doesn't care enough, nor O-Chul's, that is too badass to wish to run away instead of wishing to be able to fight again), either being directly the monster or being something the Protean can copy.
But at now, we don't know.

As for O-Chul and V arriving at the Azurite's beach, that's explicable by MitD being either the ANB or a Protean. Both have psionic mind-affecting powers. The Nightmare Beast can touch the subconscious mind of its prey, according to the fluff text, and the Protean explicitly has the Detect Thoughts power at will. Either could be used to get the location of the beach V just left from V's mind, along with the knowledge that their allies were there.

As far as I can see, rules must be bent either way to account for the Escape mechanics. However, we already have two potential explanations for O-Chul and V being sent away while Monster-san stays, without invoking a Wish effect:

Take into account:
MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor, explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)

* EDIT: Ninja'd by Ruck!
The third way, as I pointed out, is to allow Protean-MitD to assimilate a Wish ability from another creature. But mechanically, we don't have to do this, if we accept either ANB using its psionic teleport (stretched a little to cover two people) or Protean-MitB shifting into a Blot with Greater Teleport ability. In both cases, V's Dimensional Anchor missed Xykon and hit MitD, so his Teleport only sent V and O-Chul, leaving him anchored in the cage.

It's a better option than Plane Shift, I think. And much better than bending the rules to allow the Monster to assimilate a Wish- unless, again, we come across something that has Wish as a noon-spell-like-ability. But I admit to knowing too little about the monster manuals. I had overlooked the Umbral Blot link until Gray_Wolf_c pointed it out, and that was the key to my endorsing the Protean. So my mind is open to something with a Wish ability too.

[NobleCuriosity]

I'll just re-post my thoughts on the Protean when I shared them in the last thread:

That nails a lot of my own thoughts. While you've already convinced Darth Paul on the eye issue, I'd like to add another few ideas to your roster of "Eyes/mouth being constant isn't a problem quotes," for future reference (I mentioned it in an edit of an older post after people had already added many more posts to the thread, so I'm not sure anybody noticed it. Wondering if I should repost the whole thing):

1) Rich probably cares quite a bit about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently for character purposes, which the shifting would mess with.

2) In the first two panels of MitD's first appearance in #23, he literally DOES have the one and only other (large) eye type Rich drew back then. And then it changes to what we're familiar with. Doing it too often would be way too big a hint, but just once at the very start feels like a kind of appropriate foreshadowing (and also a great joke), even if it was only such in hindsight.

3) Even if the previous was truly just a joke, having the voice and/or eyes being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention nowadays. I can't link, but you can look up the TvTropes pages "Voices are Mental" and "Eyes are Mental" (which reference each other specifically) to get lots of examples.



EDIT: I've decided to recopy my explanation for my Protean > ANB guess, as I edited it in after people had already posted a bunch of stuff (dumb, I know), and I consequently don't think many people saw it. Here it is:

My reasoning: Like many people, I think that Protean is the best fit to MitD's abilities. The main knocks against it that I’ve seen are that 1) the constant shapeshifting should change the mouth and eye position/type and 2) The Escape requires a lot of things to go just right: MitD has to have been hit by the stray Dimensional Anchor, the comic not requiring teleport casters to touch their passengers has to be a canon difference and not just artistic license for panel composition, a really lucky roll has to deliver O-Chul and V to the right location, and MitD must have shifted into the exact right creature (and one that needed to be converted via a means that we’re not sure has been used). Then he must not be able to figure out how to do it again with the roaches or hobgoblin later.

I don’t think 1) is a serious objection. Having the eyes and/or voice being the only constants for a shapeshifter is a pretty common storytelling convention, AND we can’t see them in detail because of the shadow, AND most eyes/mouths look pretty similar in Rich’s original art style, AND Rich probably cares more about conveying the monster’s expression well and consistently than about giving a clue that would likely be too big of a hint before the time comes that could be explained away in other means (and also a bunch of stuff that is listed on this page of this thread a bit below). 2) Is a more serious concern, but I think that the fact that the Ootsverse literally ignores probability if the results would be significantly dramatic (and what happens was vastly more dramatic than Xykon simply succeeding) explains the teleport roll functioning, the MitD only pulling it off at the absolute last possible second, and possibly the not being able to repeat it at all later (which is also explained by the somewhat but not completely uncontrollable shapeshifting); also, as noted a bit later in this thread, the Protean's Detect Thoughts power could have let it get the knowledge of the beachfront ally location from V's mind. Everything else there we do have an explanation for, and now that we’ve had a psionic character (Lauren) as a nontrivial plot point and not just 1-shot jokes, the psionic conversion seems much more plausible.

And the Protean explains the circus scene SO much better than anything else. It explains how MitD could just stand there doing nothing and still utterly amaze everyone, how sight of him could be both disgusting to the point of nausea (after they’ve seen it, not before, in my mind making scent or auras a less likely explanation) yet eerily beautiful to some, and how MitD is incredibly and uniquely unrecognizable (note that the wizard doesn't just say "I don't know what it is", he says the much stronger "I've never seen anything like it." A "not that weird for monsters" body like the Glabrezu's 4 armed spiky humanoid form or the Uvuudaum's "6 legs on a torso plus a head" doesn't explain that comment as well as the Protean's constant shapechanging does, which presumably gives a much more unique look).

The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.” Recall how Redcloak is so quick to take him on to Team Evil (in spite of Redcloak’s preference for Evil teammates and less important preference for Lawfulness), the whole talk with O-Chul about how MitD is a “good man,” and in particular that O-Chul thinks MitD wouldn’t believe him if he told MitD what he was. All that plus the constant jokes about how his personality makes him a lot less scary than he "should" be, and having to stay in the darkness which smells suspiciously of double meanings about fear of the unknown and lack of understanding of other cultures and stereotypes about dangerous monsters blah blah blah in addition to being a joke. I can’t help but feel like MitD is intended (among other things) to be a big part of Rich’s critique of the alignment system and what it means to be a monster, with MitD’s species and looks in his big reveal coming in sharp and shocking contrast to what we, with our additional information, know about his personality and choices. Him having a species alignment listed as “always chaotic neutral” that he is actually fairly close to (though maybe good) just doesn’t seem to say much. MitD’s identity has been hidden to serve an eventual surprise for over a decade now. What about MitD being revealed to be a Protean is emotionally charged? Why is that a secret worth keeping for so very long, for a reveal which is most certainly not just going to be a joke (as I recall Rich mentioned it as a dramatic moment he was very much looking forward to)? The best I can come up with is that the shapeshifting is a literal symbol for how people-any kind, no matter how seemingly monstrous-can change, that appearance doesn’t always reflect reality, and that thus we shouldn’t have games that encourage the assumption that everything that looks sufficiently different or “monstrous” needs to be killed. But you know what fits that better, which makes it that much more of a genuine shock for the readerbase? A species whose alignment is listed as “Always Evil”—with a fiendish race in particular stunning us by breaking the last assumption about “always evil” creatures that Rich has allowed to hold in his comic (though it’s possible he genuinely wants to allow that one.), a fittingly climactic moment worthy of a decade of buildup that will spark a lot of discussion.

Note that overall I still think the shapeshifting symbolism thing is likely enough, and that MitD is a Protean. But this does give me some pause and doubt.

I would say the ANB is also a good fit to MitD’s abilities (though not as good at explaining the circus scene), and it’s always-chaotic-evil species alignment fits with my doubts. But having to have had an advanced copy sent to Rich is a pretty big ding.

The doubts and the escape scene almost make me want to pick the Glabrezu or Uvuudaum in 3rd. But for the Glabrezu, CR 13 just seems too low to be worth Xykon’s or Redcloak’s time, or to be a credible threat to the Oots; and for the Uvuudaum, literally not having eyes or a mouth at all is just a bit too much for me to buy Rich saying "nothing before then contradicts it."

[Darth Paul]

Here's a link for you, NobleCuriosity. Eyes Are Mental You've appealed to my love of TV Tropes, which is the site that led me here in the first place, after all.

[lio45]

It's funny you should mention that...

Why does section 1i of the FAQ not- in your opinion- cover the existence and nature of the "recognition debate", and sum up the three main positions? If not, what needs to be added? And I'm curious why you think that specific comment implies that the Monster is some type of "celebrity" creature?

Maybe you should read the last... ten-ish pages of the previous thread then? :P

1i fails to mention that Rich's quote gives us a reason to believe MitD is not an obscure monster. It actually says the opposite! (A section of text which, as I said, likely predates that newish-in-the-context-of-these-threads quote from Rich, and has never been revised since that quote got out.)

And further down, in 4, there's also content that implies the search is about continuing to look in dusty official sourcebooks.

Those are examples of things that I think should be updated. I've covered it pretty clearly already (I stopped when Crusher asked us all to drop everything but the next thread name suggestions and voting, but the discussion was still ongoing.)

I take it that the reveal will be satisfying in the context of "Those of you who have spent 11 going on 12 threads now trying to analyze what the Monster is, will not be disappointed when you find out. You will be slapping your foreheads and saying 'Of course! That explains everything!'"

"The answer", not "the reveal". That's entirely different. As I've explained many times already.

Plus, it seems pretty clear that this quote was Rich speaking to his general readership, not just to the incredibly non-representative and exceedingly tiny fraction of it that frequents this thread.

What does your suggested change affect? "Celebrity" monsters have been suggested, and in droves. One have met the criteria. Saying "hey this thing that was never disallowed and has had a lot of people engaging in is allowed bytheway!" does, IMO, significantly less than you think it does.

One effect of my suggested change is that we're going to stop seeing people showing up in these threads regularly to explain to the community that Rich's quotes imply that MitD's species has to be "famous" / "recognizable". That's one of the main purposes of the Introduction Posts: they're there to cover such high-frequency recurrent things so that newcomers see they've already been considered/addressed, and stop bringing them up (or at least, don't bring them up as often; i.e. only to discuss them further, as opposed to bringing them up believing they're the first ones to have thought of it).

Case in point, a mere few posts ago, we have yet again someone whose username I haven't yet seen who is bringing up for the umpteenth time:

The last thing that bothers me just a little is Rich replying to that question of “Could any species be worth the wait for the MitD reveal?” with such a confident “Yes.”