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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Prestige Options (Using different primary attributes, without breaking anything!)

    A lot of players want to mix and match different classes to fit a really cool theme, further than the current system allows. Things like: Intelligence-based Warlocks or Monks, Wisdom-based Sorcerers, etc.

    To allow players to make these kinds of builds, and to still maintain a semblance of balance, I've created Prestige Options:

    ===============

    The Rules

    Classes you have levels for now can use alternate modifiers for their features, so long as you obey the requirements for those classes. If you are unable to meet the requirement for any reason, you must use the default attribute for those features.

    Multiclassing requirements are changed to match the new Prestige Option attributes, except if changing an ability or taking a level into a class would invalidate the Prestige Option. In those circumstances, you must obey both the current multiclass requirement as well as any multiclass requirements after the attempted change (so if you use Wisdom as a Sorcerer and want to unlearn Detect Magic, you must have both 13 Charisma AND 13 Wisdom to do so, and you'll have to use Charisma for your Sorcerer features until you are able to cast Detect Magic again). Without DM's discretion, you can only use one Prestige Option at a time.

    Any changes to attributes apply only to the relevant class or subclass features. For instance, changing a class features from using Dexterity will not have any impact on your AC unless you calculate your AC from a class/subclass feature (like Unarmored Defense).


    Barbarian

    Force of Nature
    You can take the Barbarian, using your Strength in place of Dexterity for your Barbarian features.
    Requirement: The only Barbarian subclass available to you is the Path of the Storm Herald. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Barbarian.
    [Example: A warrior returns from the wilds, changed. His body contains the literal essence of a storm, and only his indomitable physicality kept it contained.]
    Spoiler: Force of Nature Analysis
    Show
    I figured that since the Storm Herald has to focus on maximizing Constitution for the sake of their Saving Throws, and the fact that the Herald would not likely consider using a Bonus Action attack with a weapon, it is rather hard to cheese out spammed high damage Strength attacks if Dex was no longer needed. A Barbarian could choose to do something like GWM and max out Strength for high damage, but then they'd run into a problem where their subclass doesn't provide them anything for their playstyle. They'd have to invest heavily in both Strength and Constitution stats to get the most out of the subclass features, which becomes its own sort of MADness.
    Additionally, Storm Herald is notoriously bad (I mean, 2 damage per round? Come on). You're forced to invest into Barbarian for this Option, so you can't just cheat and get Strength+Constitution version of Unarmored Defense. Still a buff, just not as big of a deal as you might initially think.


    Force of Savagery
    You can take the Barbarian, using Dexterity in place of Strength for your Barbarian features.
    Requirement: The only Barbarian subclass available to you is the Path of the Berserker. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Barbarian.
    [Example: A savage has learned to tap into his primal instincts, and strikes at the speed of thought. However, doing so puts much strain on his body and mind.]
    Spoiler: Force of Savagery Analysis
    Show
    I find it's roughly balanced, due to the fact that the main benefit of the standard Berserker is to launch several high damage, Strength-based weapon attacks at the enemy, and the highest damage a Dexterity equivalent would be is a 1d8.

    You effectively lose Reach and 1-2 damage for increased AC and ranged attacks. The redundancy with Two-Weapon fighting also makes it less of an appealing choice for optimizers who are hoping to break something in that direction.

    The ranged attacks are also unusable for the Berserker's features, so all-in-all, it's not much better than the original, if at all, but it fits a niche that a lot of people like.


    The idea is that it's a Barbarian that utilizes a Haste-like effect to move faster than his opponent, but it has similar drawbacks to the spell (in that it wears you out). Mechanically, you have more AC than any other Barbarian (as a fast Barbarian should) but you lose out on a decent bit of damage unless you're willing to Frenzy constantly, and you'll never outdamage a Strength version (although you'll probably live a lot longer).


    Bard
    College of Truth
    You can take the Bard, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Bard features.
    Requirement: The only Bard subclass available to you is the College of Lore. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Bard.
    [Example: A traveler seeks to spread knowledge of the world, and uses the knowledge they have gained as a source of power.]
    Spoiler: College of Truth Analysis
    Show
    I can't really think of too many problems having an Intelligence-based Bard would cause, mostly due to the lack of Intelligence-based content.

    The main concern I had was an Eldritch Knight or an Arcane Trickster using it to fuel things like Shield or Absorb Elements, while still trying to avoid the low Hit-Die of a Wizard. There's also the minor concern of a Grapple-focused Eldritch Knight Enlarging himself, so I made it that you have to focus on being a Bard over anything else. Bards have a lot of benefits from being a dip, and I just wanted to make sure that the Wizard was still a valid choice as an Intelligence multiclass choice.


    Cleric
    Clergy of the People
    You can take the Cleric, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Cleric features.
    Requirement: You cannot take Warlock or Sorcerer levels.
    [Example: A cleric chooses to live their life by aiding those in need, and to make the world a better place through the spoken word of the people]
    Spoiler: Clergy of the People Analysis
    Show
    You're going to hear this a LOT: Don't allow the Sorcerer and Warlock to multiclass with others. This is because they change how spellcasting works, to make it more versatile. Other classes, like the Cleric, can't use all of their features at the same time, but the Sorcerer and Warlock CAN (as their biggest features are Metamagics and Short-Rest Spell slot recharging). As an example, mixing the Cleric with those classes ends up with a high-AC, high-Concentration caster with too many tools and too much versatility. A Cleric/Sorcerer/Warlock could do anything, solve any problem, and be tanky to boot.

    With these restrictions, a Bard/Cleric might have some slightly higher AC, but ends up only being able to cast as at the same combat level of a lower level Cleric. A Cleric/Paladin has a lot of redundant proficiencies. There's just not a lot you can break with these restrictions.


    Disciple of Oghma
    You can take the Knowledge or Arcana Cleric, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Cleric features.
    Requirement: You cannot have levels into the War Mage Wizard subclasses. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Cleric levels.
    [Example: A historian, honoring their deity through practice of their scriptures rather than through prayer.]
    Spoiler: Disciple of Ohgma Analysis
    Show
    The War Mage is a generic murder-hobo mage subclass, and I want to remove any incentive for pure-combat builds from these changes. Any combat Wizard with medium/heavy armor proficiencies and more level 1 spell slots is a recipe for disaster, so I find it's best to focus on the Cleric side of things (which deals considerably less damage).


    Druid
    Circle of the Many
    You can take the Druid, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Druid features.
    Requirement: The only Druid subclass available to you is the Circle of Shephards.
    [Example: A sage has an innate gift to speak to all creatures, and teaches them all to live in harmony]
    Spoiler: Circle of the Many Analysis
    Show
    I'm not actually worried about Sorcerer/Warlock hybrids with this one. Not only are the summons not very malleable with Metamagics, but you need to have a LOT of Warlock levels before you can fuel them (Warlock level 5), and the Shephard features don't enhance summons until level 7. You need to be at least level 12 before the multiclassing pays off, so it ends up being very inefficient to multiclass in this example.


    Fighter
    Arcane Seeker
    You can take the Fighter, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Fighter features.
    Requirement: The only Fighter subclass available to you is the Arcane Archer.
    [Example: A warrior, raised by elves, learns the secrets needed to protect their sacred lands.]
    Spoiler: Arcane Seeker Analysis
    Show
    It just makes sense. They can already get Druidcraft. The Ranger has a lot more synergies with the Druid or Cleric than the Arcane Seeker does, and that's the biggest concern here.

    Worst case scenario, you could go Kensei/Ranger, I suppose, but that seems much cooler than overpowered.


    Monk
    Way of the Closed Fist:
    You can take the Monk, using your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your Monk features.
    Requirement: The only Monk subclass available to you is the Way of the Open Palm.
    [Example: A troubled youth learns to harness his strength for good, channeling his forceful nature through his fists.
    Spoiler: Way of the Closed Fist Analysis
    Show
    A bit odd, I know, but the Open Hand relies really heavily on Wisdom compared to the other melee-oriented Monks. Your damage output is a bit higher by mixing in with Barbarian, but your Ki point reserve takes a hit. With no Wisdom, you deal the same damage as a Barbarian with a Monk dip, and having Wisdom means that your Strength/Constitution is going to be lower (meaning either less damage/hits, or less HP that stacks with Rage).

    While the Barbarian/Monk combination does seem strong compared to a normal Barbarian, consider the fact that Rage works best with a high HP pool, and the Monk gains 2 less HP per level than the Barbarian. Leveling in this way means that you're able to absorb about 3-4 less damage per level than the classic Barbarian, making this an even less effective choice.

    Lastly, you also weaken the Monk's Evasion ability by changing it to Strength, a much less common and less threatening Saving Throw.


    Way of the Disciplined Eye
    You can take the Monk, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Monk features.
    Requirement: The only Monk subclasses available to you are the Ways of the Sun Soul, Four Elements, and the Long Death. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Monk levels.
    [Example: A reclusive student learns the forbidden arts of his temple after much time spent in the library, and seeks to hone his newfound knowledge with practice.]
    Spoiler: Way of the Disciplined Eye Analysis
    Show
    Make sure to not allow a Wizard to cheat his way into high AC without some kind of cost. In this case, we're talking about Unarmored Defense, which can completely go out of hand when considering something like Bladesinger's AC bonus.

    It can be a concern of a Monk dipping a few levels into Wizard, which provides things like Shield and Absorb Elements, but this does mean a smaller HP pool. The War Mage is a solid choice, but the Reaction benefit really competes with the Monk's existing Reaction uses (Deflect Missiles, Slowfall) which are already very powerful choices. You are not gaining the ability to Deflect Missiles AND gain +2 AC AND gain Shield, only the option to do one of the three, and that's perfectly reasonable.

    A Monk built this way cannot go fully Intelligence and abuse Bladesinger or Wizard levels, due to the fact that effects like Shillelagh are only possible using Charisma (via Tome Warlock) or Wisdom. Intelligence has no method to attack with a weapon, and so a Dexterity-less Monk will have VERY weak attacks compared to a balanced one. A fair trade, considering the spellcasting and AC benefits.


    Paladin
    Oath of Superiority
    You can take the Paladin, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Paladin features.
    Requirement: The only Paladin subclass available to you is the Oath of Conquest. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than your Paladin levels.
    [Example: A dark knight uses his superior intellect to dominate those with weaker minds than him.]
    Spoiler: Oath of Superiority Analysis
    Show
    Make sure that Wizards can't get cheatyface AC from a low level dip. A main-Paladin can dip into Wizard for Shield and Absorb Elements, but this is already doable with Sorcerer, and Sorcerer can cheat out Twin Spell Booming Blade, so it's still better than the Paladin/Wizard Hybrid.

    Admittedly, the restriction for Conquest is a narrative choice, but no other Paladin Oath really seemed to justify a change to Intelligence. I added this one mostly due to popular request.


    Oath of the Old Ways
    You can take the Paladin, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Paladin features.
    Requirement: The only Paladin subclass available to you is the Oath of the Ancients. Additionally, you cannot have more Druid levels than your Paladin levels.
    [Example: An orphan, raised by denizens of the forests, grows to be its solitary protector.]
    Spoiler: Oath of the Old Ways Analysis
    Show
    Going through a checklist reveals that nothing is broken by this option:
    Clerics already have access to armor and healing of a Paladin. Paladin provides some burst damage potential, but at the cost of a lot of redundant abilities (like inefficient healing via Lay on Hands vs. Healing Word, or redundant armor/weapon proficiencies).
    Druids gain some armor, and have decent spellcasting, but their emphasis on Concentration doesn't do well with a primarily melee multiclass. Moon Druids get a minor buff, but that armor won't be usable in this combination. Similar to Clerics, but while the Druid has more close-ranged damage spells than Clerics, they rely on Concentration too much for a Paladin/Druid to rely on them too much.
    Rangers get heavy armor, I guess? Not much else to gain here.
    Monks get Divine Smite, but not much else.

    In all of these circumstances, a multiclass will generally cause the Paladin to lose Paladin levels and delay those powerful Paladin features, so it all seems fine to me. Especially when the Paladin+Sorcerer Twinned Booming Blade or Paladin+Warlock Smite Spam options are much more explosive than anything a Wisdom Paladin could get.


    Ranger
    Chronicler Conclave
    You can take the Ranger, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Ranger features.
    Requirement: The only Ranger subclasses available to you are the Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Additionally, the only Wizard subclasses available to you are the Schools of Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination.
    [Example: A journalist travels across the multiverse to experience and log everything for his magnum opus. A veteran uses his knowledge of various monstrosities to lay them to rest.]
    Spoiler: Chronicler Conclave Analysis
    Show
    You gain access to a reusable Shield, but you're limited to the weaker Ranger subclasses, and ones that are primarily ranged combatants.

    I'm not going to lie, this was mostly a targeted buff to Rangers, but let's be real: They need it.

    The Wizard doesn't get much out of a multiclass like this, as the Ranger still lacks heavy armor and is attack-reliant, so most Wizards are just better off multiclassing into Fighter for a build like this. Taking Ranger levels is a pretty big investment when the biggest benefit (higher AC) can be accomplished with a Mage Armor spell.


    Rogue
    Thug
    Your Sneak Attack feature no longer requires a Finesse or Ranged weapon. Instead, it now requires a Melee weapon. Your Sneak Attack die is now a 1d4 instead of a 1d6, but it can now apply to more than one attack per turn. You start with proficiency in Medium Armor and Martial Weapons.

    Requirement: You must choose to level into this version of the Rogue with your first Rogue level, and you cannot change your choice after it has been made.

    [Example: A brute lives a life of hardship, doing whatever it takes to survive. He discovers there's more gold and longevity in adventuring than browbeating merchants.]
    Spoiler: Thug Analysis
    Show
    The Thug is unique, in that it actually changes around how the class plays. It was the only way I could think of to successfully add support for a Strength-based Rogue. I created a thread shortly after, to encourage people into creating builds that were overpowered using this change, and....there were none. Barbarian Rogues become slightly better. Polearm Master will deal more damage than Crossbow Expert, but overall, there isn't much that's improved from these changes in terms of power.


    Sorcerer
    Sorcerous Medium
    You can take the Sorcerer, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
    Requirement: You cannot take levels into Cleric or Druid. You must be able to cast Detect Magic.
    [Example: A powerful mage, aware of all forms of power around him, can feel nearby magic and bend it gracefully.]
    Spoiler: Sorcerous Medium Analysis
    Show
    Cleric and Druids have some solid armor and a lot of versatility as prepared casters. Those classes have access to a lot of great Concentration spells, and those Concentration spells are easily abusable with Metamagics.
    Don't exaggerate that by allowing them to multiclass with Sorcerer. Other than giving Monks and Rangers Shield, there's not anything scary by this choice.
    Detect Magic was added as a requirement to lower the overall power creep of mixing the Sorcerer with a Martial class. Now you have slightly fewer murderhobo shenanigans.


    Sorcerous Bond
    You can take the Sorcerer, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
    Requirement: Between 1/5 and 1/2 of all of your Class levels must be in Sorcerer.
    [Example: A warrior receives a gift from a powerful benefactor, aligning his fate with a new purpose and power.]
    Spoiler: Sorcerous Adept Analysis
    Show
    You can mix-and-match this in a lot of different ways-kinda the point-but there's not too many means of breaking it. In most situations, you're better off just taking a level or two into the normal choice for a particular build, like Eldritch Knight + Wizard, or Monk + Druid. The forced 1/5-1/2 ratio means you're unable to abuse Sorcerer spell slots to their maximum capability, and you're unable to leave the level where it lies.
    As a result, you delay Extra Attack, higher level spells, and a whole plethora of benefits to...gain Shield? Move as you cast spells? Enhance your healing slightly?

    Even something that maxes out Constitution, like a Barbarian, might reconsider when he has to wait until level 7 to get Extra Attack.

    In favor for it, though, it turns anyone into a Gish. Sorcerer happens to have some of the best spells to augment a melee combatant, and the extra cantrips helps a lot if you don't have many caster levels.


    Warlock
    Chosen of the Forbidden Blade
    You can take the Hexblade Warlock subclass, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
    Requirement: Half of your total character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
    [Example: A sentinel in a temple maintains a corrupted spirit blade, until it breaks. The spirit now inhabits him and grants him dark powers.]
    Spoiler: Chosen of the Forbidden Blade
    Show
    You want to avoid letting characters dip into Warlock easily, and Hexblade is the biggest example of what a problem it can create, with access to Shield and all.

    My solution is to make Warlocks a primary class, which removes any kind of low-level magic cheese. Warlocks have so many build options that players aren't really forced into any one playstyle by doing so.


    Chosen of the Fey
    You can take the Archfey Warlock subclass, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
    Requirement: You cannot have more Ranger levels than you do Warlock.
    [Example: A guardian of the wilds finds a benefactor for their cause.]
    Spoiler: Chosen of the Fey
    Show
    Ranger gets a lot out of a mobile caster like this, not to mention that Ranger provides all the proficiencies a Warlock would need, so I made the restriction specific to them.

    Monks would get Absorb Elements, but otherwise wouldn't be able to abuse the spellcasting.
    Druids focus heavily on Concentration, and other than that, wouldn't become that much more effective if they were allowed to have Short-Rest spell slot recharging (which is what the Land Druid does anyway).

    All-in-all, not much of a problem in any scenario.



    Chosen of Death's Defiant
    You can take the Undying Warlock subclass, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
    Requirement: Half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
    [Example: A hero stays alive by bonding his soul to an immortal being who is impressed by the hero's stubbornness to die. Invigorated, the hero now relies on this bond to stay a hero.]
    Spoiler: Chosen of Death's Defiant
    Show
    One of my favorites, it works well with multiclassing into a martial class, but it doesn't allow you to dip for an easily overpowered Eldritch Blast.

    It's a minor boost to the power level of the Undying Patron, but it's not like it's going to cause people to take it in swarms. You're still limited in your damage abilities, and you can't invest a whole lot into martial classes. You could take a level into Barbarian and rock some Rage + Armor of Agathys, but that's an underplayed scenario with a lot of cool things going for it (as well as a lot of self-harming effects, like Rage and casting). This was an intentional buff, but nothing I can come up with really makes it overpowered.


    Chosen of Infinite Truths:
    You can take the Great Old One Warlock subclass, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
    Requirement: Half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
    [Example: A Mage, willing to do whatever it takes for more knowledge and power, sells his soul to the highest bidder and spies on the mortal world.]
    Spoiler: Chosen of Infinite Truths
    Show
    Once again, be careful about letting other classes easily dip into Warlock.

    All the existing intelligence characters may have mixed feelings about dipping into a non-combat oriented Warlock subclass that you're forced to make your primary class, but that's the cost of Short Rest Spell Slots.


    Wizard
    Natural Enchanter:
    You can take levels into Wizard, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Wizard features.
    Requirement: The only Wizard subclass available to you is the School of Enchantment. Additionally, you cannot take levels into Sorcerer or Paladin.
    [Example: A magical con-artist learns that manipulation starts with practice before study, and combines both to reach his goals.]
    Spoiler: Natural Enchanter
    Show
    Blocked Paladin to avoid allowing Wizards access to cheap and easy AC, but also for a narrative reason (as this is an Enchanter who learned to manipulate out of habit). Sorcerer is blocked, mostly because of the fact that Metamagic is very powerful with single target Enchantment spells.

    Warlock isn't blocked for once, due to the fact that the Enchanter has a lot more options to work with than spamming Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or other Concentration spells, and doesn't really get much out of the Warlock. You let the Wizard be able to cast Shield more often, but the Enchanter might as well have just invested into more Wizard levels.


    Natural Diviner:
    You can take levels into Wizard, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Wizard features.
    Requirement: The only Wizard subclass available to you is the School of Divination. Additionally, you cannot have levels of Cleric.
    [Example: A psychic has learned to tap into subtle signs of the future world around them, constantly aware of that which is and will be.]
    Spoiler: Natural Diviner Analysis
    Show
    You want to avoid letting Clerics and Wizards merge willy nilly, due to how powerful Wizards can be if they're allowed to maintain Concentration for too long when considering the Cleric's AC. Cleric dipping into Wizard is calling for unwanted Murderhobo abuse with Shield and Absorb Elements on something like Tempest Cleric that would outshine almost any other gish build, so it's best to just not let Clerics and Wizards mingle.

    Other Wisdom classes, like Monks, Druids or Rangers, don't provide ludicrous levels of AC for low investments, nor do they have many things that enhance the Wizard's ability to cast spells. If anything, you might see those classes dip a level into Wizard for Shield or something, but most of them generally want to avoid direct combat and won't get the extreme levels of mitigation that a Fighter or Paladin with Shield would get.






    ===================

    With more to come!
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-06-22 at 08:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Using existing classes to create unique characte

    Way Of The Closed Fist lets you trade Charisma for Strength... On a Monk, who uses Charisma for nothing. Just a typo I noticed.

    Overall, though, I don't feel the need to structuralize all these. I, as a DM and as a player, have seen and used stat-swaps before. Like a Charisma Monk, or an Intelligence Warlock.

    While it does come with the "Please don't abuse this" caveat, I've never had them be any worse to have in a game than the standard. While your ideas are certainly cool, the restrictions seem far more thematic than mechanics based, and considering the power of refluff...
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Using existing classes to create unique characte

    The restrictions might seem arbitrary, but try to create overpowered build (Hexblade + Paladin, Eldritch Knight + Abjurer) with these concepts, and youíll find youíll hit a roadblock with min-maxing, while still having access to interesting concepts (like a Druid + Bard, or a Warlock + Monk).

    There are some inherent balance concerns Iím focusing on:
    • Opening up class options is less effective if the build is MAD by design (as with the Open Palm)
    • Do not give builds that have access to low level defense spells (Shield and Absorb Elements) easy access to short rest low level spell slots.
    • Clerics are already multi-role classes, do not give them options to add versatility to their magic, as they already excel in that.
    • Some subclasses are more powerful with fewer levels (hexblade) and some are more powerful with more (Druid).


    Alternatively, with these requirements, you cannot:
    • Dip into a casting class that is most powerful at low levels (Sorcerer, Hexblade)
    • Make powerful casters add much more versatility in their already-powerful casting (Cleric + Sorcerer)


    Each iteration has a key element to it that prevents super effective multiclassing.

    With the Agent of the Fey as an example, allowing a new multi class option for a class that generally loses power by multiclassing (Druid), itís inherently not making anything more powerful, despite Warlock granting efficient low level spell slots, and also preventing easy abuse of low level Ranger spells with Warlock slots.

    With the Defiant of Death as another example, using Constitution as a casting modifier is a great boon for a character, but being unable to effectively use the class as a primarily martial combatant, it dramatically lowers the build's options as a super-effective frontliner. Also, due to the fact that you're forced to be Warlock for half of your levels, this cuts down on players trying to abuse a high constitution score combined with overpowerful Concentration spells (such as from Wizard/Druid/Cleric).

    ------------------------------------

    Thanks for pointing out my typo. That should be Dexterity for the Monk, not Charisma.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-01-16 at 12:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    I've about doubled the list, including options for Paladins. I'd like to add more options to expand upon Strength and Dexterity, but doing so would be fairly difficult to balance.

    Perhaps a Strength-based Kensei would be fine, but I'll do some more looking into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Reformatted to make it a lot easier to read. Added a Bard option. Still need an option for Rogues, Wizards, and Barbarians, but considering how few stats they use and how strict their narrative is, it's hard to justify modifying anything for them.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-02-26 at 01:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
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    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Absolutely love the idea.

    I recently played a Cleric that was using Charisma instead of Wisdom to replicate the Favored Soul. However that opened up for some disgusting combos (with Sorcerer and hexblade). It think the restriction for these prestige options are balanced, mostly thematic and might help trying to convince a DM to let you change stats used for a class for thematic reason.

    I really like Clergy of the people, as mentioned. But i LOVE Closed fist, finally a physically strong monk ! And Chosen of the forbidden blade just gave me a character idea.
    Last edited by Lord Maze; 2019-03-05 at 10:30 PM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    I just wanted to let you know I adore this, and plan to implement it in my next campaign.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Maze View Post
    Absolutely love the idea.

    I recently played a Cleric that was using Charisma instead of Wisdom to replicate the Favored Soul. However that opened up for some disgusting combos (with Sorcerer and hexblade). It think the restriction for these prestige options are balanced, mostly thematic and might help trying to convince a DM to let you change stats used for a class for thematic reason.

    I really like Clergy of the people, as mentioned. But i LOVE Closed fist, finally a physically strong monk ! And Chosen of the forbidden blade just gave me a character idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by daemonaetea View Post
    I just wanted to let you know I adore this, and plan to implement it in my next campaign.
    Wow, thank you guys! That really means a lot.

    I've added a Barbarian option, utilizing the Storm Herald. I figured that since the Storm Herald has to focus on maximizing Constitution for the sake of their Saving Throws, and the fact that the Herald would not likely consider using a Bonus Action attack with a weapon, it is rather hard to cheese out spammed high damage Strength attacks if Dex was no longer needed. A Barbarian could choose to do something like GWM and max out Strength for high damage, but then they'd run into a problem where their subclass doesn't provide them anything for their playstyle. They'd have to invest heavily in both Strength and Constitution stats to get the most out of the subclass features, which becomes its own sort of MADness.
    Additionally, Storm Herald is notoriously bad (I mean, 2 damage per round? Come on). You're forced to invest into Barbarian for doing so, so you can't just cheat and get Strength+Constitution version of Unarmored Defense. Still a buff, just not as big of a deal as you might initially think.

    Wizard finally has some options, using Charisma for Enchantment and Wisdom for Divination. I figured that as long as the Wizard can't cheat into getting easy armor proficiencies with caster levels it'd be fine. I'm still following the formula of not mixing Sorcerer with caster levels, so I put a restriction preventing that.

    I'm happy with the list so far. Until there are more subclasses released, I think this is enough to satisfy me and most needs I see people wanting.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-06 at 05:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Seems pretty much fine. All the option restrictions probably aren't even necessary. I mean it opens up a lot of strong options, but nothing that is alarmingly better than all the existing cha combinations. Abjurer + Paladin is probably the scariest thing out.

    Barbarian + str Monk is a bit of power creep with silly AC and great damage potential (lots of attacks + rage damage on all of em). The bonus action to rage though keeps it from being too crazy.
    Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
    Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
    I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
    Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteNutButter View Post
    Seems pretty much fine. All the option restrictions probably aren't even necessary. I mean it opens up a lot of strong options, but nothing that is alarmingly better than all the existing cha combinations. Abjurer + Paladin is probably the scariest thing out.

    Barbarian + str Monk is a bit of power creep with silly AC and great damage potential (lots of attacks + rage damage on all of em). The bonus action to rage though keeps it from being too crazy.
    Do you feel that the requirement to use Open Hand (because of the Wisdom dependency) helps with that, or does nothing to mitigate the power creep?
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Question for you - under the barbarian, you have:

    Force of Nature
    You can take the Barbarian, using your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your Barbarian features.

    Is that intended, or do you have it backwards? As far as I can tell, the only actual class features this would impact would be Unarmed Defense and Danger Sense. Is that the entirety of the intent, or did you have the stats backwards?

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by daemonaetea View Post
    Question for you - under the barbarian, you have:

    Force of Nature
    You can take the Barbarian, using your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your Barbarian features.

    Is that intended, or do you have it backwards? As far as I can tell, the only actual class features this would impact would be Unarmed Defense and Danger Sense. Is that the entirety of the intent, or did you have the stats backwards?
    Nope, that's exactly correct!

    You might think it's strong, but consider the fact that a Barbarian with Medium Armor can get 15 AC without any stats, or 17 AC with a 14 into Dexterity. A Barbarian using my example needs a 16 into Strength and a 14 into Constitution just to break even with a Barbarian with no stats, or they need an 18 and a 16 just to break even with a Barbarian who has a Dexterity of 14. You need two 18's (or a 20 and 16) stats just to start getting more AC.

    This buff is also mitigated by the fact that you're restricted to using the Storm Herald, which is the unanimously decidedly weak of the Barbarian classes (along with Berserker), as well as the fact that the Storm Herald needs to focus on Constitution for its class features rather than Strength. Multiclassing for this version is probably worse, as there is only one class that would not be using Armor but would be using Strength, and that's already the Barbarian. This also heavily nerfs Danger Sense.

    TLDR: It's a slight buff to the Storm Herald, but it doesn't impact much.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-15 at 11:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    After a lot of nagging and requests from people, I added an option for Dexterity Barbarian!

    However, I'm expecting people to start throwing things at me, as it's restricted to the Berserker. I find it's roughly balanced, due to the fact that the main benefit of the standard Berserker is to launch several high damage, Strength-based weapon attacks at the enemy, and the highest damage a Dexterity equivalent would be is a 1d8.

    You effectively lose Reach and 1-2 damage for increased AC and ranged attacks. The redundancy with Two-Weapon fighting also makes it less of an appealing choice for optimizers who are hoping to break something in that direction.

    The ranged attacks are also unusable for the Berserker's features, so all-in-all, it's not much better than the original, if at all, but it fits a niche that a lot of people like.


    The idea is that it's a Barbarian that utilizes a Haste-like effect to move faster than his opponent, but it has similar drawbacks to the spell (in that it wears you out). Mechanically, you have more AC than any other Barbarian (as a fast Barbarian should) but you lose out on a decent bit of damage unless you're willing to Frenzy constantly, and you'll never outdamage a Strength version (although you'll probably live a lot longer).
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-15 at 06:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Love these options. I would love a spoiler following each of the options with 'behind the scenes' insight, just to understand better where each decision is coming from.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Love these options. I would love a spoiler following each of the options with 'behind the scenes' insight, just to understand better where each decision is coming from.
    That's a good idea. I'll work on it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Thank you! Can't wait to read them!

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    I especially love the Charisma cleric and the intelligence bard.

    I love how your homebrewes are meant for everyone, and completely un-cheesable ^^

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
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    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Very nice, definitely helpful for some groups. Iím not sure my group has reached the point where the noobs are comfortable with homebrew, but I may bring this up if people seem to want it.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Under Fighter: Arcane Seeker, you placed Kensei/Ranger.
    Which did not make any sense to me as it was under Fighter....
    Did you mean Fighter/Kensei?

    The only real abuse that I can see with Seeker/Kensei is the Flurry of Blows (Bonus Action) with Attack, Extra Attack, and Action Surge (for another Attack, Extra Attack) combination - for punching the *** out of a Foe once a Short Rest. And then still shooting someone with a magical arrow (twice?) the next round.

    I suppose that an Arcane Seeker Fighter and a (Hunter?) Monster Slayer Ranger might be a bit strong.

    Chosen of the Fey gives me an Idea for a combination with Ancients Paladin, just to see how that works.

    I'm thinking that this will be a Moon Elf that works for The Queen of Air and Darkness, believing that sometimes bad things must happen to cause good people (read: other Moon Elves) to be motivated to change their ways.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Under Fighter: Arcane Seeker, you placed Kensei/Ranger.
    Which did not make any sense to me as it was under Fighter....
    Did you mean Fighter/Kensei?

    The only real abuse that I can see with Seeker/Kensei is the Flurry of Blows (Bonus Action) with Attack, Extra Attack, and Action Surge (for another Attack, Extra Attack) combination - for punching the *** out of a Foe once a Short Rest. And then still shooting someone with a magical arrow (twice?) the next round.

    I suppose that an Arcane Seeker Fighter and a (Hunter?) Monster Slayer Ranger might be a bit strong.
    No, I meant that you could multiclass the Arcane Seeker with Kensei OR Ranger, which has a few synergies (Hunter being able to shoot more often, Horizon Walker converting all the damage to Force, Kensei being able to use high-powered ranged attacks), but since the Arcane Archer's burst potential is very limited by their number of available shots per day, and the fact that most of the Fighting Styles for ranged characters are limited and redundant, not to mention the risk of a redundant Extra Attack level, I don't see any overpowered combinations by allowing the Arcane Archer to multiclass with Rangers and Kenseis, and they don't have spellcasting themselves so it's not like mixing it with Druid or Cleric is going to do anything with it.

    Even taking your example of an Arcane Seeker and a Hunter:

    Horde Breaker adds extra hits, when the Arcane Archer only has 2 or so uses of their Arcane Shot. Colossus Slayer adds extra damage when taking down large targets, but those are limited to one shot per turn, when the Arcane Archer gets multiple Extra Attacks and has increased accuracy. One of the biggest benefits of the Arcane Archer is using your Bonus Action to recurve a shot that you missed, and the Ranger can't easily combine that with his spell shots due to the fact that they also require a Bonus Action. The Hunter would mostly provide some sustainable effects, but considering it requires 3 levels to get the value out of it, the Fighter could have gotten another ASI or Extra Attack in that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Chosen of the Fey gives me an Idea for a combination with Ancients Paladin, just to see how that works.

    I'm thinking that this will be a Moon Elf that works for The Queen of Air and Darkness, believing that sometimes bad things must happen to cause good people (read: other Moon Elves) to be motivated to change their ways.
    I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure what the goal is on that. Both the Warlock and the Paladin use Charisma by default, and using a Wisdom Warlock with a Charisma Paladin would be weaker. Unless you're just talking about multiclassing a normal Warlock and Paladin for the same flavor, in which case, good choice!
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-22 at 12:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    No, I meant that you could multiclass the Arcane Seeker with Kensei OR Ranger, which has a few synergies (Hunter being able to shoot more often, Horizon Walker converting all the damage to Force, Kensei being able to use high-powered ranged attacks), but since the Arcane Archer's burst potential is very limited by their number of available shots per day, and the fact that most of the Fighting Styles for ranged characters are limited and redundant, not to mention the risk of a redundant Extra Attack level, I don't see any overpowered combinations by allowing the Arcane Archer to multiclass with Rangers and Kenseis, and they don't have spellcasting themselves so it's not like mixing it with Druid or Cleric is going to do anything with it.

    Even taking your example of an Arcane Seeker and a Hunter:

    Horde Breaker adds extra hits, when the Arcane Archer only has 2 or so uses of their Arcane Shot. Colossus Slayer adds extra damage when taking down large targets, but those are limited to one shot per turn, when the Arcane Archer gets multiple Extra Attacks and has increased accuracy. One of the biggest benefits of the Arcane Archer is using your Bonus Action to recurve a shot that you missed, and the Ranger can't easily combine that with his spell shots due to the fact that they also require a Bonus Action. The Hunter would mostly provide some sustainable effects, but considering it requires 3 levels to get the value out of it, the Fighter could have gotten another ASI or Extra Attack in that time.
    Definitely food for thought. It was the X/Y that confused me, causing me to think that you were combining those Classes, instead of an either/or choice. Some combos get MAD, too.

    I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure what the goal is on that. Both the Warlock and the Paladin use Charisma by default, and using a Wisdom Warlock with a Charisma Paladin would be weaker. Unless you're just talking about multiclassing a normal Warlock and Paladin for the same flavor, in which case, good choice!
    I was mostly thinking about the Title and the flavor it was giving.
    I haven't sat down and worked out the differences the change would make.
    But, with what you've pointed out - it does look like just doing regular Warlock/Paladin would be best. Blade Pact is the obvious choice for this combo.

    Everyone rages about the Hexblade combining with almost every Class, with Blade Pact going to martials. If I played this PC Idea in a DM's game that had The Evil Fey Queen in the Shadowfell, that might work.

    (AS DM - I normally run that while Heartless, Winter and it's Queen is still a part of the Natural Cycle, and therefore in the Feywilde, along with Queen Titania of Summer and King Oberon of Wild. I'd have to do more research on Faeries for a "Lord of Thunder" - for that damage type.)
    Maybe I'll give each Court a different Damage Type for the Blade Pact Weapon:
    Fire for Summer, Frost for Winter, and Lightning for Wild.

    IDK, the Shadowfell always seemed to me to be mostly focused on Despair, and while I can see bonding with a Shadow-powered weapon, I still tend to (as a DM) keep it linked to the weapon's creator.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-03-22 at 12:42 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Personally, I like the idea of removing the proficiencies and Charisma-based attacking from Hexblade and just putting them on the Pact of the Blade as features or invocations.

    Then just allow the Hexblade to have Advantage on Concentration checks for spells that are affecting an enemy, clean up their spell list a bit, and you end up making a valid Curse/Life Draining Patron as well as a competitive melee build for every other patron.

    It opens up a lot of stuff and makes the Hexblade have a very clear identity.

    Unfortunately, that isn't quite what the Prestige Options are about, but I might make it a different homebrew altogether.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-22 at 01:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Posted from PMs.

    Great Dragon: I did have some questions/suggestions.

    Would changing the Dex to Int for the Mastermind be worth it?

    Inquisitive seems to focus a lot on Wis/Insight....?

    (But then, I also see these two Subclasses at war, Holmes [Inq] vs Moriarty [Mm] style.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game
    What from the Mastermind actually uses Dexterity, though? There are not many Rogue features that explicitly say anything about Dexterity, except for Evasion, maybe.
    Great Dragon: That is why I inquired about the Int change for Mastermind (and the change for Inquisitive to Wis, from what I can understand). Especially if they are using Int/Wis for AC and Initiative, there would be no need for them to also have Dex - except for Evasion.

    Unless I step out of attributes and just start chopping up features (like, explicitly saying you don't need Finesse or a Range Weapon for Sneak Attack), then it's a lot less effective. If I DO go that route, it makes things a lot more complicated.
    Great Dragon: Chopping up features would be more a Skill-based RPG, and not a Class-based RPG.
    And was not really my intended goal.

    I could understand Arkhios' Thug being able to use non-finesse weapons (using Str instead of Dex) and still sneak attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game
    Ah, I think there's a misunderstanding. I guess my Prestige Options are a bit misleading.

    They don't change all calculations, only calculations specified in the class/subclass sections.

    That is, changing Dexterity to Wisdom won't change how you calculate your AC, unless you calculate your AC from a class feature (like Unarmored Defense).
    Ah, that clears it up.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Thank you for pointing that out. I've modified the base rules to show it a lot more directly.

    -----------------

    I've really thought hard about how to alter the Rogue using these rules, but I've found that since most of their abilities either impact skills, modify Sneak Attack, or involve Cunning Action, there's just not a lot of room for it.

    I suppose I could swap the Charisma aspect of Swashbucklers, but....to what?

    I could also change the Arcane Trickster, but Wisdom doesn't really fit an Illusion/Enchantment specialist, and Perception is already far too common. Charisma casting is also far too common.

    Nothing I've thought of has fit any kind of narrative to make it feel justified for a change.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-22 at 04:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    I've really thought hard about how to alter the Rogue using these rules, but I've found that since most of their abilities either impact skills, modify Sneak Attack, or involve Cunning Action, there's just not a lot of room for it.

    I suppose I could swap the Charisma aspect of Swashbucklers, but....to what?

    I could also change the Arcane Trickster, but Wisdom doesn't really fit an Illusion/Enchantment specialist, and Perception is already far too common. Charisma casting is also far too common.

    Nothing I've thought of has fit any kind of narrative to make it feel justified for a change.
    I thought the same when I read your post first time around, and reached the same conclusion. Most "other" rogue archetypes usually revolve around using strength instead of dex, and the problem kinda solves itself :/

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MOG Mechanics: Prestige Options (Adapt existing classes to create unique characte

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I thought the same when I read your post first time around, and reached the same conclusion. Most "other" rogue archetypes usually revolve around using strength instead of dex, and the problem kinda solves itself :/
    I was thinking about doing something completely odd and start just making broad changes to the Rogue archetype itself in order to make it interesting, but balance-wise, I'm kinda nervous about the changes.

    My idea:

    Thug: Your Sneak Attack feature no longer requires a Finesse or Ranged weapon. Instead, it now requires a Melee Weapon. You have proficiency in Medium Armor.

    Additionally, you use your Constitution modifier for your features in place of your Dexterity modifier. This does not change what attribute you use for skills.

    You must choose to level into this version of the Rogue with your first Rogue level, and you cannot use the standard Rogue after your choice has been made.


    I think that opens up a lot of options, and removing the ranged feature is enough to make it be worth it. Evasion using Dexterity is better than using Constitution, so overall it's a slight nerf that allows melee combatants to be glass cannons.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-29 at 06:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

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